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4492806 No.4492806[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Theists what do you think heaven will be like?

As a Christian, I find the idea of heaven terrifying. I don't think people will be 'happy' in heaven. Like I don't think they'll be the same people. It'll be more a collective thing. Like the Borg....

And what about my family? Will I feel sad if some of them aren't there? Can I feel sad anymore?

>> No.4492827

If Heaven exists and it is what it is supposed to be, it will literally have to be something that automatically and cathartically bypasses all of your fears about it in an instant, overwhelming you with sheer joy and being what you always wanted but never even knew, your ultimate ideal of perfection. If you believe in God, and Heaven, you should just be super fucking happy all the time, because you know he's got your back if you do shit right. He knows you better than you do.

>> No.4492833

There's nothing after you die. You die and that's it. It's game over.

>> No.4492864

>>4492827
So spiritual drugs. Heavenly Brave New World.

Yeah, this is the problem with this ancient concept OP. Sorry.

>>4492833
Don't taunt.

>> No.4492863

>>4492806
Deist here, but I have contemplated it. Honestly the only mutually acceptable answer I can come up with is either a complete removal of desire to do things, or the removal of the consequences of doing things.

The former is ghastly for obvious reasons. If I have a desire to do something that conflicts with another person's desire, their desires are not met, which invalidates the idea of heaven as a perfect place. This assumes that model of heaven, and not a sort of 'post-earth' with punishments as with in life. For example, a mother who wants nothing but to be with her daughter, but a daughter who for some reason hates her mother. Both cannot have what they want, but there they both are. If desire was completely removed both would be content, but what sort of life is that?

The latter is maddening, for surely the drive for me to do something is to see the results. Without that i'd be terminally bored.

So my conclusion is that heaven requires a complete, true form of solipsism that terrifies me. Heaven is six billion people hooked up to VR machines, interacting with no one but themselves.

>> No.4492902

Don't waste this life hoping for a better one next time around. This is the only one you can be sure you'll even have. If there is an afterlife, it is literally impossible to know what it's like. And everyone will experience it. So don't loose sleep over it.

>> No.4492913

>>4492806
I'd imagine heaven to be something collective in a way. It would need to fill the whole present in all humans as a result of their needs or desires and make each person whole. It would need to be something beyond human comprehension, a kind of oneness with God.

>> No.4492916

>>4492902
>And everyone will experience it. So don't loose sleep over it.
Are you unfamiliar with the fork in the road part where you either go to Cancun or Guantanamo?

>> No.4492917

Heaven will be an endless space of nothingness.
all you have is your mind, and you create everything.
we're probably inside someones heaven right now. some being, after it passed on to heaven, started creating and creating and put everything into motion.
it is God. we won't ever meet it, but we will then become God once we pass. and then we will create a place of our own.

>> No.4492919
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4492919

I've had a near death experience and, while not a theist, I would like to shed some light (hurr hurr) on this thread.

I don't believe in any sort of god; if anything, I'm buddhist in that I believe "god" is within you. I was an agnostic atheist before I had a nde, and I believe that in all likelyhood the world fades to black when you die, but that was before

I believe that your heaven exists, but I do not believe it exists as you think it does. It's not like a field or building or place where people hang out. There is not really much distintion between people "soul" wise. It is not even 3 dimensional, it is 1 dimensional.

I warm, immensely loving light exists, and that is all that there is. That is the entire world. This light exists as if it were displayed on your computer monitor and it is impossible to look anywhere else; that's as close to a description of 1 dimensional as I can get. You suddenly know everything, or just have a sense of all knowledge that has existed, but not in any specific way; it's more like when you've been trying to remember something that's on the tip of your tongue and then you finally remember it.

I do think it's the greatest place in existence though. Beautiful music plays, and it feels wonderful. It feels like this white light is giving you an orgasm that resonates throughout your entire being, and you are also giving it that orgasm, and you are also the light that is giving yourself the orgasm, but you are also the orgasm itself. That's how good it feels.

And you're right; they wont be the same people. You will be your soul, the "player" controlling the "character" you are playing in the video game of life, if you will. I don't know what the Borg is, but I think it's more like the orange poll of Tang from Evangelion.

As for family -- you wont even remember they exist. I believe you have "soul friends" that your soul is friends with and hangs around with outside of this life, but I don't think that you even necesasrily meet them each lifetime. You wont feel sad that your friends aren't there.

Maybe it's possible to feel sad, but in soul form all emotions exist without connotation, if that makes sense. If you could feel sad then it wouldn't mean the same thing as it does here. If it helps to explain, I believe that if you do not accomplish your life goal that, instead of being bummed or ashamed, your soul is more of the idea that "we did a good job anyway and we'll try again another time", with no negativity.

The problem I see a with lot of people (and religions) in trying to imagine the afterlife is that they try to attribute "earth" traits to it when it is an intrinsically different reality

>inb4 "my words are fact"

>> No.4492920

>>4492913
*hole

>> No.4492940

>>4492919
could what you experienced just be endorphins/whatever neurochemical rushing to ease you into little more than a state where you don't breathe and your heart doesn't beat?

>> No.4492949

>>4492806

as a christian, how the hell do your beliefs add up to that? That is like no christianity I have ever heard of.

>> No.4492976

>>4492949
The Bible is not very clear on what heaven will be, so Christians will create their own idea of what heaven will be like.
Have you ever asked a Christian what their concept of heaven is?

>> No.4492987

>>4492940
Entirely possible, but it's still something I think all people experience as they die, and it fits almost exactly with the idea of "heaven"

>> No.4492998
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4492998

>>4492976
They asked me in CCD when I was little. I smugly told them everyone has a house on a cloud, and s hand knit wool sweater with their initials embroidered into it.

>> No.4493005

>>4492806
>>4492806
>Like I don't think they'll be the same people. It'll be more a collective thing. Like the Borg....
Are you sure you're actually a Christian? You'd be an awfully uneducated one if you were, to be honest. I'm at least assuming that you're Protestant or don't otherwise have any serious theology going on, or maybe you just haven't thought or read enough. Yes, of course you're still "you" in Heaven. You're just a "you" without mortal suffering and pain. I'd imagine you could still be sad about other people not being there though. Talk to your local priest.

>> No.4493003

>>4492916
Watch this documentary on hell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B-MldE3n44

Basically, all the common conceptions of "hell" or whatever place "bad people" go is a total fabrication that has no real pinpointable origin.

>> No.4493017

>>4493005
OP is how most Christians work. They bump into things in the religion that they recognize are hypocritical and unfair, and they conveniently snip those parts out while claiming Christianity to be up to the interpreter.

>> No.4493021

>>4492806
Heaven is for Angels and divinities. MAYBE prophets and martyrs. Chump people just sleep until the end, then they get Utopia until apokatastasis kicks in.

>> No.4493023

>>4492919
>The problem I see a with lot of people (and religions) in trying to imagine the afterlife is that they try to attribute "earth" traits to it when it is an intrinsically different reality
A lot of your post was pretty out there (including your attribution of wordly pleasures to Heaven), but this was spot-on. Heaven is the beatific vision. The happiness that's spoken of in relation to it is closer to the ancient Greek philosophical concept of a state of being rather than the momentary sort of happiness you get from, say, listening to a cool song or eating a nice burger.

>> No.4493026

>>4492806
>>4492917
>>4492919
I gotta make up some fluffy and comforting view of afterlife for me too... I think it will have unicorns in it, unicorns are cool.

>> No.4493034

>>4493017
This is legitimate fedora-tier faggotry and complete misunderstanding of Christianity as a whole

>> No.4493035

>>4493017
>is how most Christians work
Considering the most populous branch of Christianity in the world is Catholocism, which doesn't leave interpretation up to "it's whatever you want, man", that's a blatantly false statement dude.

>> No.4493065

>>4492976

The bible is clear on several things that seem to me to directly contradict most of what OP was saying. I'm an ex-christian myself.

>>4492998
This guy is more what I expected.

>>4493005
I sure hope he isnt protestant, or I'll have to be embarrassed for my past self.

>> No.4493072

This is why you should be a Buddhist. Their goal is non-existence; so if Buddhism turns out to be bullshit and there is no reincarnation, they get what they want. If Buddhism turns out to be an accurate philosophy then they get what they want.

Only way they can be wrong is if one of the other religions is true, which is unlikely, and it's still a safer bet anyways.

>> No.4493073

I think the idea of heaven being a place where everything you desire is instantly yours is unhealthy. I'd want consequences, even in paradise.

>> No.4493259

>>4493072
>Implying being Buddhist means you can't get into heaven.

>> No.4493272
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4493272

>>4493021
Ah, so you're one of those Soul Sleepers

>> No.4493278

>>4493072
Hinduism >>>

>> No.4493301

>>4493072
This is probably the most innacurate summation and comparison of any religion I have ever read in my entire life.
>so if Buddhism turns out to be bullshit and there is no reincarnation, they get what they want.
No, the goal is gnosis/enlightenment AND Nirvana, which is necessary to purposefully strive towards before death otherwise you just reincarnate again. Mahayana Buddhism has the spiritual afterlife/paradise as well. Theravada Buddhism maintains a separate plane of existence for those who achieve separate themselves from "worldly fetters" or shackles, where they must then strive towards further enlightenment/release from samsara.

Then if they're wrong, you've spent your whole life in a state of self-denial for nothing.

>> No.4493304

>>4493035
>Catholicism
>Christianity
A good one. But jokes aside, the modern Catholic Church an its philosophy is so different from the early practicing Christians, it might as well be a new religion. Hell, the medieval and Renaissance fan fiction alone it has attached to the body of its teachings has Catholics/other sects that broke out of the Catholic church looking towards Dante and Milton instead of the bible without realizing it.

>> No.4493308

>>4492863

>> No.4493315

>>4493304
that's totally irrelevant to his point

>> No.4493323

>>4493072
As someone who has their expertise in Buddhism and advanced meditative practice, I must inform you that to say the goal is non-existence, is nothing short of being completely wrong.

>> No.4493325

>>4493315
>which doesn't leave interpretation up to "it's whatever you want, man

My point was, despite its dogma it's been pretty flexible throughout the ages whenever it suits the Pope and his cronies.
Which is fine, Christianity was pretty much open source before the early church stepped in, just wish it was more so now in the minds of its supposed participants so we'd get more Philip K. Dicks.

>> No.4493331

>>4492919
Buddhists don't assert a god, let alone a panentheistic one.

Gotta say, I have been only coming to /lit for a short amount of time, but so many references to Buddhism are completely wrong.

>> No.4493334

>>4493301
>self-denial

What?

>> No.4493342

>20 something year old modern kids think they have any right to pass judgement on the Church.

Is it time for another inquisition already?

>> No.4493343

>>4493304
Read the Ladder of Divine Ascent, Philokalia, Desert Fathers, etc.

>> No.4493347

>>4493342
>implying everyone doesn't have the inherent right to judgement, particularly of a backwards and anti-logical dogmatic organization.

>> No.4493363
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4493363

The chemical piracatam induced spiritual ecstasy in me, especially in a few dreams. I met a god in a dream. I am not sure if it was our creator, but it was definitely a god.

I met this god in my high school cafeteria (I was in college when I had this dream). He took the form of a large black man with a wide face, squinty eyes and dreadlocks. He said to me,

"I just loved Vietnam. It filled up my spirit!"

And then I saw this black man dancing over the dirt in some jungle, probably in Vietnam. Whoever this god is, he enjoys death. The death toll in the Vietnam war was higher than any war since then. This god wants blood. Whoever he is, you will make him happy if you kill. But you will not go to heaven.

Piracetam induced dream #2: I cannot remember the contents of this dream, but I awoke to a deep voice saying to me, "SON....SON....SON" and I was crying as I awoke from this dream.

Piracetam induced dream #3: I rose up to heaven. Was it rapture? I am not sure. There was a "skyscraper made of cloth". It was like a tower made of quilts, only there were many many holes and squares missing inside of it where you could see the blue sky through it. There were people (angels?) sitting in some of these holes/windows, sounding this most heavenly trumpets I ever heard as I continued to rise higher and higher. People were congratulating me, they were so proud that I was doing it; those who were already dead are waiting for you.

I had no interest in religion, God, or Christianity at all before I started taking piracetam, and I had these dreams in a state of complete indifference to religion, but when I awoke from them I changed. I believed in God for a while due to these dreams, but it was reading Kierkegaard's The Sickness Unto Death that made me decide that I would be a Christian, along with Mark Twain's Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc.

I suggest you all look into piracetam if you find your spiritual life to be dry. It truly is a chemical of God; perhaps the philosopher's stone, even--though that is just a theory.

>> No.4493368
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4493368

>>4493363

>> No.4493381

I've been there. Each moment is flush with brilliance, and all else slips away.

>> No.4493394

It's just what you want it to be/what you think it will be. That's why so many people have different experiences of the afterlife, that's why they are often based in a cultural context (seeing Jesus) That doesn't make it any less true though, or that's what I believe anyway.

>> No.4493429

Heaven is common brotherhood and love with all of mankind. It is not something in the afterlife, it is already here, in you.

>> No.4493440

>>4493272
It's in da bibble

>> No.4493444

>>4493440
nope

>> No.4493461

His disciples said to Him, "When will the Kingdom come?"
<Jesus said,> "It will not come by waiting for it. It will
not be a matter of saying 'Here it is' or 'There it is.' Rather,
the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men
do not see it."

- Gospel of Thomas

>> No.4493463

>>4493444
Yep

>> No.4493480

>>4493461
The gospel of thomas is one of the reason I think Jesus went to India

>> No.4494208

>>4493461
His Father's Kingdom is not heaven. Those are two separate terms.

>> No.4494490

>>4494208
unless you are an expert on the gospel of thomas, please stop. This gospel is a gnostic writing that distinctly does NOT use the same rhetorical methods as the canonical bible, if anything the gospel of thomas is heterodoxy.

Even if you were an expert on these gnostic aphorisms, to say that the "Father's Kingdom is not heaven" is absolutely a violation of the limits of knowledge.

>> No.4494543

"Heaven is not a place, and it is not a time. Heaven is being perfect."

"God is not sitting in some antiseptic corner of the Universe."

>> No.4494555

>>4492863
>but a daughter who for some reason hates her mother.

No more hate in heaven bruh.

>> No.4494571

>>4494208

see

>>4494490
>>4494543

>> No.4494585

I like how the stoics think of the afterlife.

It's basically the soul, the rational part of you being released and joining the divinity. You're no longer you in a way, since all your flaws were due to you not truly knowing yourself. We think it's sad to release and to think we won't see our loved ones again, etc., but on death we realise how little all that matters really, and how much of that was false, etc. There's no hell either, hence why they thought death sentences were merciful, finally releasing the soul from a confused body and allowing it to see the light and be free.

I think it's nearly impossible to imagine right now and we can only guess as to what that would be like, since we've never lived anywhere but in ourselves.

Personally believe it's more likely that there's no afterlife, but if there were, that'd be the one I see likely.

>> No.4494596

>>4494585
Exactly why I dislike the stoics is because they fantasize the soul and hope that it is the rational part. Where is most likely is some type of primal protoconsciousness that is anything but rational.

>> No.4494760

I didn't believe in any form of after life.. then I did DMT.
Apparently the same gland that is used in a DMT trip is used, albeit 4x more intensely, when someone is experiencing death.
So perhaps what I saw and felt wasn't death exactly but the trip to that place.
The best way I could describe it was out of body consciousness. I felt split into a million pieces like a galaxy in the night sky, I saw my physical body as a simple vessel that held in the consciousness until it was freed.
Whatever the fuck I saw and felt it made me feel hope which is more than most religions are able to evoke within me.

>> No.4494821

>>4494760
>Apparently the same gland that is used in a DMT trip is used, albeit 4x more intensely, when someone is experiencing death.

bro science

>> No.4495058

I think there is no difference between heaven and hell.
I think everyone's experience merges into one great collective. You live all the good and all the bad over everyone's lives. You are both the victim and and rapist, the winner and the loser.
Which is why living a morally good life is best, because if everyone did it then the afterlife itself would be better.