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/lit/ - Literature

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4479824 No.4479824[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Jon Snow thread.

>> No.4479828

snow thanks

>> No.4479829

>Is Jon Snow really Kill?
>Is Jon Snow Rhaegar's son?

>> No.4479838

His whole stabbing was very strange. The things he did was out of character.

>> No.4479843

>>4479824
More like Jon Blow

The whole Night's Watch shit is a bit frustrating. Their motives for going over the Wall with a third of their strength is pretty retarded.

Especially when they know Mance Rayder has a force immensely larger than that...the whole Night's Watch plotmovements are kind of stupid and jarring.

I don't know if that's just me, though.

>> No.4479852

>>4479843
Eh...I never understand that part where he goes out from the Fist hill at night for no explicit reason with Ghost...but they find those pivotal 'Dragonglass' weapons which helps them out later.

>> No.4479853

>>4479843
>The whole Night's Watch shit is a bit frustrating. Their motives for going over the Wall with a third of their strength is pretty retarded.
>Especially when they know Mance Rayder has a force immensely larger than that...the whole Night's Watch plotmovements are kind of stupid and jarring.

I never saw your pov until now. I don't fully agree, but I see what you're saying.

>> No.4479861

>>4479853
I just want a better explanation from Mormont than 'I saw dead guys, lets go see what's happening'.

But then they don't send messages to anyone. I mean, fuck, could you imagine if Aemon send Ravens everywhere saying the Night's Watch is marching against Walkers?

I just think the whole reasoning behind it is really poorly constructed.

>> No.4479906

>>4479843
The rational was something to the effect that Rayder would never expect such a large expedition and they could catch his force unawares, thus significantly reducing their numbers or even disbanding them before they ever reached the wall. Really it was the magic frozen dead guys who fucked everything up.

>>4479861
They did send messages. Remember the hand they sent to King's Landing? No-one believed them.

>> No.4479915

>>4479861

The idea is that they want to make a quick strike with the bulk of their forces to scatter Mance's poorly organized grand army and then retreat. But the problem is that they don't use the bulk of their forces: Mormont doesn't want to leave the wall unguarded and so has to both deplete his defense and underpower his offense. Also they walk right into zombie hell because they're morons.

>> No.4479945

>>4479906
>Remember the hand they sent to King's Landing? No-one believed them.
Yeah, I remember, but that was to warn them of Walkers, but he doesn't say anything of marching beyond the wall. Plus, they send the guy that everyone hates and Mormont almost sent him in spite...which is retarded.

>>4479915
Yeah, the reasoning behind it is stupid and irrational.

>>4479906
That was hardly the rational, because Mormont explains that Rayder will know they're there but wouldn't attack because of their positioning on the hill...but then fails to understand how eating food works, apparently.

It's a really, really brittle rational in any circumstance. I don't know if Martin really thought through his plot movements for the Night's Watch very well.

>> No.4479955

>>4479945
The guy was well respected in KL, Jon and the younger recruits alone don't like him.


Personally I don't understand what the fuck Martin was thinking, how is a sneak attack preferable to defending from an incredibly strong and fortified position? Especially when it involves mounting a large force in the single most brutal terrain in the world.

>> No.4479960

>>4479945
Mormont never intended for his expedition to survive. He wanted to do as much damage to Rayder for the Watch and expected most of his men to die.

>> No.4479974

>>4479955
>The guy was well respected in KL
Tyrion hated him and he was continually laughed at during the entire time being there.

>>4479960
It's ridiculous, no matter what rationale you put on it. Do the most damage to Rayder by splitting a really small force, taking them out from a heavily fortified position, through an area of no supply and fortifications?

Really, it's a silly excuse to move the plot.

>>4479852
Like this guy here says, there is almost no reason for this to occur apart from incredibly fortuitous events of stupidity from Mormont and unexplained venture by Jon....

>> No.4479979

The wildlings have fucking giants among their ranks. Why the hell wouldn't they just go around the wall by sea. Thousands of years and they couldn't figure out how to build a short bridge around the wall or build a boat? The whole thing is friggin ridiculous.

>> No.4479981

>>4479974
It's not THAT ridiculous when you consider what happened when Stannis arrived. His force wasn't much bigger and managed to scatter Mance's army without any problem.

>> No.4479987

>>4479979
They did do this. The Watch has a naval component for this precise purpose. They also ensured that 2 of the castles that remained in operation were at both ends of the Wall so they could see this happening.

>> No.4479991

>>4479981
But that's hindsight. I'm talking from Mormont's perspective.

>> No.4479992

>>4479987
Oh scratch that, the Shadow Tower is far west but not by the sea. I don't know then. Natural obstacles?

>> No.4479997

>>4479992
Can someone explain why no-one built a second bridge over the Trident to stop the Frey's having market share?

>> No.4479999

>>4479991
No it's not...Mormont explicitly states that the reason this will work is b/c the Watch is so much more disciplined and better equipped than the Wildlings, that the Watch would cut through them like a hot knife through butter––and they would scatter. He was right, but he and his men died before they could do the deed, so Stannis did.
>>4479987
Oh scratch that, the Shadow Tower is far west but not by the sea. I don't know then. Natural obstacles?

>> No.4480003

>>4479999
> He was right, but he and his men died before they could do the deed
That's such a dichotomy. The Watch wasn't more disciplined, though. They were fucking rank amateurs.

>> No.4480005

>>4479987
implying they couldn't go further out to sea so they were unseen
implying the ships the watch had was enough to stop anybody
implying Mance didn't conveniently decide to attack the most heavily gaurded entrance through the wall

>> No.4480011

>>4479997
Because the Trident is massive, iirc it took the Freys a very long time to build their crossing/The Twins. Plus there are different parts of the Trident you can ford, Robb needed to cut across the Twins b/c of the position of his army and a lack of time.


>>4479999
Ok fuck, I was wrong about being wrong. Different maps say different things.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/c/cd/The_North2.jpg

>> No.4480016

>>4480011
I mean...in the thousand years that people have been wanting a crossing over it.

They could have also build a crossing over that River...near the end of the Gorge

>> No.4480029

>>4480005
I imagine the terrain was somehow unfavorable for that to be possible. Plus, keep in mind, the further out they go, the more water they will need to cross. The richest/most industrious of the Wildling clans can produce crude bronze...they're not going to make ANY kind of vessel that doesn't suck absolute ass.

The Watch actually had more ships than they did men to patrol with them. They were able to cross the narrow sea and mount an expedition to Hardhome with 11 vessels and had ships to spare.

Uhh...I think Mance was just taking the shortest way as he wanted to get south of the wall asap. I don't know where you got this idea that Castle Black is the strongest of the 3 castles.

>> No.4480034

>>4480016
This is a stupid question, do you really think the Freys would allow such a thing? They literally created all of their wealth via the crossing toll.

>> No.4480040

>>4479997
Because the Freys are an armed body of men who will murderate you for trying that. They have a martial monopoly.

>> No.4480042

>>4480034
What can the Frey's do about it. They have around 4000 Bannerman or something meagre and the ONLY reason they are considered strong is because the Twins are impossible to siege. Building a bridge would just essentially force their army out.

>> No.4480048

>>4479861
They sent messages to everyone, no one believed. They left north to get proof.

>> No.4480053

>>4480042
Whatthefuckamireading.

What would be bridge maker can match their 4,000 swords?

>>4480005
Mance attacked all of castles on the wall, with his main force besieging Caste Black.

>> No.4480065
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4480065

>>4480029
>justifying this hard

>> No.4480078

>>4480053
>implying I meant a single bridge maker
I meant a fucking kingdom. There are so many that have reason to build a bridge over the trident and remove the Frey's of market share.

>> No.4480088

>>4480078
>Kingdom
>market share
Importing anachronistic capitalism into our book about Dragon War Of The Roses?

>> No.4480093

>>4480088
I'm saying market share merely as terminology. Not actual market share....merely the Frey's having something that nobody else has, therefore having the power of such object.

Like, you know. Gold mines or coal mines and shit.

I don't know another way to phrase it, but I didn't think someone's would think to much about it considering its a simple concept at face value.

>> No.4480117

>>4480093
Given your ignorance about feudal power relations, an ignorance that subsists at the level of basic terminology, why should we give a single soggy fuck about what you believe in relation to a Dragon 100 years war book about feasts?

>> No.4480126

>>4480117
You're trying too hard.

>> No.4480142

>tfw you've been gobbling up pages of the ASOIAF wiki for the past few hours

What interesting lore. I may have to start reading these books.

>> No.4480191

So is Jon Snow done for or what?

>> No.4480193

>>4480191
He dead

>> No.4480254

>>4480078
>>4480093
You don't get it. If someone tried this, the Freys, and their friends, would be on their asses. Did you not note how there are systems of alliance throughout the 7 Kingdoms? As it was, the North and the Riverlands were historically friendly and so...there were no viable contenders for the passing.

>> No.4480259

>>4480254
are you willing to say anything in asofai doesn't make sense? (not relating to the magic mythology aspects)

>> No.4480368

>>4480254
I don't really think so. The Frey's aren't exactly friendly and their 'allies' extend exclusively linked to their crossing.

I mean, Robb was willing to siege the fucking Frey's if he had the time. But he didn't so he made an alliance.

All I'm saying, in all the thousands of years you'd have thought some other alliance would have built another crossing somewhere on the Trident.

>> No.4480379
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4480379

>>4480368
Robb was willing to do this precisely BECAUSE he had nothing but allies in the region. The entire North and Riverlands were consolidated in alliance, it's absolutely absurd to propose some other kingdom harbored designs on the Trident and was willing to fight for it. It's in the favor of the North for the Freys to have the sole crossing if the Freys are their friends, etc...

>>4480259
I am, but 99% of /lit/s continuity criticisms come from being fucking stupid and not recalling the material correctly.

>> No.4480389

>>4480379
>Frey's are their friends
This is just bullshit and you know it.

>> No.4480882

>>4480193

nah

>> No.4482290

>>4479915
A bit more than that actually. The whole thing was a front for finding their missing scouting parties and such. Largely for finding more about the Wights and The Others. That's why they took the Fist of the First Men and just sat on it.

>Fist of the First Men
>Superior defensive position
>Big vantage point
>Great spots for scouts to observe anything that moves
>If the the Wildlings try to pass they would be seen
>Wall is warned
>If the wildlings attack they would be held off (for a time)
>Wall is warned

As it happened, the defensive advantage was completely nullified by The Others and their Wights who are immune to everything that isn't fire, obsidian and "Dragonsteel." They just weren't expecting that.

Not that this really justifies the expedition, mind you.

>> No.4482299

>>4480882
He's as dead as can be, even in the resurrection theories all result in him coming back as a fundamentally different mental entity.

>> No.4482311

>>4480191
>throat kind of slashed
>stabbed 3 times
>last chapter ends with him unconscious laying in the snow surrounded by people who are trying to kill him
he's done

>> No.4482692

>>4479838
He blindly trusted his comrades, and to him it was chaos. I guess we'll know how thoroughly planned it was next book.
The Night's Watch has some serious problems with authority, but I guess it won't matter soon enough.

>> No.4482806

Face it boys and girls, Jon Snow is going to survive. Even though GRRM has been defying regular fantasy conventions by killing off what most people saw as the main characters, he's still writing a book. A popular book. There has to be some sort of satisfying conclusion, and I highly doubt it'll end with "So...yeah. The Starks got fucked, the Wildings exploded south, Westeros was plunged into darkness and no one sits the Iron Throne."

Jon will live. He will either be resurrected by Melisandre straight away, or warg into his wolf to be born later amidst fire and smoke. He will then leave the Watch (because he died, and is thus free from his oath), reclaim the North, march south to meet up with Daenerys or Aegon, and then either marry her, or bend the knee and serve as the Hand. He is probably one of the heads of the dragon. I see no other way for this to go.

>> No.4482846

>>4482806
If he survives the mutiny (and I use the term "survive" lightly) I doubt he would go South; nor do I think he will survive the story to it's conclusion.

>> No.4482856

>>4482846
The real butthurt will occur when he kills Daenerys.

>> No.4482916

>>4482856
That would be pretty amusing honestly.

>>4482692
Jon's entire methodology for handling his men was completely fucked.

Ned tells him and Robb that a good leader shouldn't get too close to his men, as he might one day have to stand in judgement of them. Jon confuses this as "completely separate yourself from them in almost every way imaginable" which ends up doing nothing but fostering mistrust for him. He then assumes that because he is their boss they will do as he tells them to do and that he doesn't really need to fully explain any of his actions. This failure to understand basic leadership skills as they relate to ones subordinates bites him in the ass very hard, especially considering that his organization largely consists of former criminals.

The irony being that he wasn't that bad of an administrator, he just had a shitty understanding of human beings.

>> No.4483027

>>4482916
Another thing to consider is that he gave a LOT of commodities to the troops of Stannis and to Stannis himself, also, you have like more than half of your men afraid/hating them witches and then you become her lover to the eyes of your men in other words, he fucked up big time
>>4482856
No, the real butthurt will occur when Sam returns to the wall and they kill him because no more Lord Snow

>> No.4483189

>>4483027
Good I hate Sam.

>> No.4484026

>>4483027
The commodities he gave were justifiable but again, he never really explained any of this, not even to his officers.

>The reason I'm giving them this shit is because I'm walking on a tightrope. On the one hand, the NW takes no part. On the other hand, Stannis and his Red Witch are bat shit bonkers, with a larger better equipped force. So I'm stuck giving them just enough to leave them sated, but not enough to compromise the oaths we have taken. If I fail in this, we are fucked; either by Stannis or the rest of the Realm.

Even this would have sufficed but nothing even resembling this was given to any of his men, not even his officers. He simply kept them in the dark on the politics of it all and assumed that they would keep the faith.

His biggest mistake was with the wildlings, but again he didn't explain anything to anyone.

>I'm letting the wildlings pass, recieve food and shelter, land etc, in exchange for prisoners, their belongings, etc, because I figure a few thousands men and women are going to be easier to handle than a few thousand Wights.

>But why not just seal off the wall?

>The Others have been building and planning for almost eight thousand years; you think they don't have some sort of plan for that?

What does he give his men?

>The Others raise the ones who die.
>Winter is coming, and with it the White Walkers

>> No.4484027
File: 100 KB, 556x778, 1390135246214.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4484027

Crokus and Apsalar thread now

>> No.4484040
File: 363 KB, 839x1049, 1390136018809.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4484040

>>4484027
wtf is this fanart shit. fucking plebians ruining semi-decent characters with their shitty teenage-hormone fueled interpretations

>> No.4484044

>>4484027
There are two threads already, anon.

If you want this one to die, go post on one of those.