/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.4454785]

With the large number of roleplaying games centered soley around story, and the power that storytelling holds in other roleplaying games that are more centered around mechanics or whatall, it would seem like /lit/ and /tg/ would have more crossover. You both enjoy a good story and a good plot twist. Why don't you ladies and gents hang out more?

[Anonymous No.4454788]

>reading for plot
>anywhere but middle school

[Anonymous No.4454792]

Literature is more than just story anon

[Anonymous No.4454827]

>>4454785

There is no game story ever made that can be described as having literary quality.
At it's best its quality lecture, at its worst its just fucking retarded.

[Anonymous No.4454923]

>>4454788
If I'm not reading because I enjoy the story, then why am I reading?

Unless I'm reading to try and give a grounds to flaunt a supposed superiority.

[Anonymous No.4454929]

>>4454827
This is incorrect, at least in the realm of video games. There are several games that constitute stories of literary merit.

[Anonymous No.4454942]

>>4454929
Shadow of the Colossus, Bioshock, Half-life..

[Anonymous No.4454968]

>>4454942
>Shadow of the Colossus
The story completely went over my head because I was thinking of Wander as a caveman-like idiot that wanted to be the strongest of his valley.
Fun game.

[Anonymous No.4454971]

>>4454942
>all of those
>literary merit

Do tell.

[Anonymous No.4454974]

>>4454785
>You both enjoy a good story and a good plot twist.
plotfags never cease to crack me up with their pleb levels

[Anonymous No.4454975]

>>4454971
But when you deliver your post explaining why those games have totally rad stories don't forget to clarify the point at which they reach "liteary merit"

[Anonymous No.4454978]

>>4454827
Fallout and some Drakengard games come to my mind pretty quickly.

[Deep&Edgy !!BfzNblz4cXS No.4454981]

They get upset when you suggest that you can roleplay without any system or dice and simply tell a story based on storyteller and player consensus. It is yet another symptom of a generation who grew up playing D&D and nothing else.

[Anonymous No.4455000]

>>4454975
But it makes sense in my mind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNiQ7RT-UTw#t=0m51s

[Anonymous No.4455002]

>>4454929

oh come on.

If we're talking about pure "story", then the best vidya can hope to achieve is being on par with decent genre fiction. Even highly praised stories like PS:T, Bioshock or Silent Hill 2 aren't on par with the best examples of sci-fi and fantasy literature - and that's just sticking to genre fiction, nevermind "high literature".

Games have artistic merit, yes, but I'd hardly call it "literary" merit because generally speaking the merit is not in the writing itself. SotC wasn't good because of the story, it was good because of how it used ambience & gameplay to convey the plot to you and the way it played with ancient epic archetypes. Half-Life was good for similar reasons. Both would have been utterly forgettable had they been written as novels.

[ln !!a6LpkJWGfDi No.4455006]

>>4455002
>genre fiction and high lit are different things
please fucking stop this shit jesus christ

[Anonymous No.4455011]

>>4455002

I will add however that there is literary skill involved in making CRPG characters react convincingly to a wide array of possible player actions. Again, this doesn't really compare to anything in literature.

[Anonymous No.4455020]

>>4455006

I know, sorry. I'm a huge sci-fi fan but you know what I mean. Video games can hope to reach Heinlein or Gene Wolfe but I doubt they'll ever have a Tolstoy.

[Anonymous No.4455022]

>>4455002
Eh I can agree with this

[ln !!a6LpkJWGfDi No.4455028]

>>4455020
I know what you mean and it's complete bullshit. Very much "high lit" is just genre fiction of its time, and there's definitely modern genre fiction I would call literature with that connotation - Lord of Light, A Canticle for Leibowitz, Hyperion and Ilium come to mind.

[Anonymous No.4455033]

>>4454942
>tips fedora

[Anonymous No.4455045]

>>4454981
The problem from my experience of role playing in middle/high school, is that without a system if you have role players who aren't very serious everything falls apart pretty fast. It usually goes something like this:

>"A knife flies right past your face and hits a target on the wall. You turn around. A mysterious man in a trenchcoat is at the end of the bar. 'Hey kid' he says 'come here a second,'. What do you do?"
>"I rape him."
>"What? Why?"
>"I'm going to make a necklace out of his balls."
>"Are there any hot girls in the bar?"
>"I'm getting so drunk right now."

[Anonymous No.4455051]

>>4455033
How the fuck do those games have anything to do with pretension? They're great games. The whole "tips fedora" thing that is all over lit is fucking ridiculous. Probably some of the most mainstream games out there, idiot.

[Anonymous No.4455116]

>>4455051
>How the fuck do those games have anything to do with pretension?

>Shadow of the Colossus
>not pretentious
Let's not be silly now anon.

[Anonymous No.4455125]

>>4455028

Fair enough, anon.

[Anonymous No.4455134]

>>4455116
Lol. You should feel bad for that post.
Play games for yourself and stop calling others pretentious for saying they enjoy a game that has one of the highest ratings of any game on the playstation 2.

You're being an ass for the sake of being an ass. Poisoning the board.

[Anonymous No.4455136]

>>4455116

nah man SotC is genuinely intelligent

If you're looking for pretentiousness, try MGS2. Or any retro indie platformer, really.

[Anonymous No.4455140]

>>4454978
>Fallout
>quality of any kind

[Anonymous No.4455145]

The subject of this thread was supposed to be tabletop roleplaying games, not video games, so the hostility surprises me. I frequently see /lit/ posters calling /tg/ one of the best boards.

This has already devolved into a "lel vidya is shit plebtier" circlejerk that no one cares about.

[Anonymous No.4455150]

>>4455134
No need to get mad anon

[Anonymous No.4455156]

>pretension
>pretentiousness
I think the word is "pretense".

[Anonymous No.4455157]

>>4455145
/tg/ IS one of the best boards, they're nice and generally hold good discussions. As someone who actually likes the subject matter I love visiting it.

That said the OP was pretty stupid

[Anonymous No.4455160]

>>4455145
Calling /tg/ one of the best boards is a meme, like "/co/ is love"

[Anonymous No.4455162]

>>4454978
> Fallout
> Story
go find water chip
find water chip
return water chip
go kill muties
game won

[Anonymous No.4455163]

>>4454923
Themes, style, character (technically part of the story)

The plot is just a tool

This is why fantasy gets no respect

[Anonymous No.4455173]

>>4455163
There are themes, style, and character in fantasy novels. You choose to ignore them because the plot is often given more importance and that allows you to easily dismiss the genre.

There's also this idea that plot can't be used to express themes in place of characters. Surely there's an example of high literature doing that.

[Anonymous No.4455175]

>>4455162

That's the general framework. The main plot is just an excuse, Fallout is about social satire and interactivity.

or just shooting mutants if you're Bethesda I guess

[Anonymous No.4455193]

>>4455116
SotC is one of the least pretentious games I've ever played.

It doesn't try to interrogate or deconstruct anything, it doesn't resort to satire or other ironies to give itself depth, it does not have any claims on realism or truth, and it does not complicate itself for the sake of being complicated.

It's an incredibly simple story, almost archetypal in its simplicity.

[Anonymous No.4455194]

>>4455162
>story is what gives literary merit
whether you like it or not there's tons of "high lit" with shit or purposely zero plot

[Anonymous No.4455199]

that's why it's good

[Anonymous No.4455216]

>>4455173
Strawmen, strawmen everywhere.

I didn't imply there weren't themes, style, and characters in fantasy novels. I simply stated that they weren't as good, because, like you said, the plot is given more importance. But the plot by itself is meaningless, it exists for a reason. No good story exists just to "tell a plot".

>There's also this idea that plot can't be used to express themes in place of characters.
I have no idea where you even got this from or why you think I believe this. Of course the plot is used to express themes, it's the only reason it exists.

And finally, I didn't dismiss fantasy as a whole. I didn't even insult it. I said it doesn't get respect.

So hey, a little tip when you try to argue with someone: don't assume anything beyond what was stated in their argument. Otherwise you end up looking like an idiot.

[Anonymous No.4455234]

>>4455002

Indigo Prophecy.

[Anonymous No.4455240]

>>4455193

Yes. That is exactly what it is. It uses instantly recognizable archetypes so it doesn't HAVE to tell you anything.

ICO does the same thing, though with a different set of archetypes. Half-Life also plays with this a little.

[Anonymous No.4455245]

I'm curious as to what kind of /lit/ those people who are defending video games as having literary merits like.

[Anonymous No.4455247]

>>4455163
>The plot is just a tool
Oh, sweet child.

[Anonymous No.4455251]

>>4455216
Theon Greyjoy's tragedy is as good as most of Shakespeare's tragedies.

[Anonymous No.4455254]

>>4455247
Good argument.

Reading literature for the plot is probably the single plebbiest thing you can do.

[Anonymous No.4455262]

>>4454974
/lit/ fails to realize that the problem is when you read something that's meant to explore deep themes and such and don't grasp them because you only focus on the plot, not when you read something that's meant to just be a fun story and enjoy it.

[Anonymous No.4455267]

>>4455254
see
>>4455262

[Anonymous No.4455272]

>>4455251
i'm going to cry

the essence of tragedy is not "a bunch of bad shit happens to this guy." that is horrible fucking tragedy, and ridiculously emotionally manipulative. ;

[Anonymous No.4455282]

>>4455262
>>4455267
There's no problem in reading solely for entertainment, just don't pretend there is any literary merit to your story.

[Anonymous No.4455289]

>>4455272
>a bunch of bad shit happens to this guy
Haha, what?

>taken from his home when he's young as part of the resolution to a rebellion that his father lost
>raised by a family that is kind but distant
>constant, gentle reminders that he doesn't belong
>has an opportunity to go meet with his biological father and make a deal
>discovers he's not wanted or respected there either
>has to choose between betraying the family that raised him and giving up his only chance to feel like he has a home
>chooses the former
>everything spirals out of control
>he realizes too late that it wasn't his adoptive family's fault he was an outsider
That's perfectly legitimate tragedy.

[Anonymous No.4455296]

>>4455282
I'm not actually one of the people who was discussing fantasy before. I just dropped in to say that /lit/ actually does seem to have a problem with that very thing.

Also, it's possible for a story to be "genre fiction" and have literary value. Phillip K. Dick and Ursula LeGuin are both examples of authors who have done this.

[Anonymous No.4455300]

>>4455289
I'm confused, how is that anything but "a bunch of bad shit happening to a guy"?

[Anonymous No.4455311]

>>4455300

Perhaps the same could be said of all Shakespeare.

[Anonymous No.4455313]

>>4455311
I'm not >>4455272, mind you, and I've never read GoT, I'm just not sure how what he said has been disproven at all.

[Anonymous No.4455315]

>>4455296
>Also, it's possible for a story to be "genre fiction" and have literary value
I don't think most of /lit/ would deny that, either. I've never seen PKD trashed around here except for a few specific novels.

[Anonymous No.4455316]

>>4455289
yeah that would all be great except that he spends like a ridiculous amount of time just having bad shit happen to him. imagine if hamlet in act 5 just had claudius torture him over and over. horrible, horrible, emotionally manipulative waste of time. horrible dramatic structure. also, that's not to mention the absolutely retarded act that is the whole assault and taking of winterfell, which not only is psychologically stupid, but destroys the sympathy we might have had for the character, which is only regained because he undergoes such severe torture. just making someone have THE WORST SHIT happen to him so that we feel bad is manipulative.

btw, even if those events were all that happened, made sense, and weren't dragged on way longer than they needed to be, it still wouldn't approach ANY of shakespeare's tragedies, because it would lack the ambiguities, depth, characters, and incredible style that shakespeare has to his credit.

[Anonymous No.4455323]

>>4455300
>>4455313
Well, I'm >>4455289 but not >>4455311 so we're even.


He's an interesting character and it's his own actions and choices, conforming to his own nature, that lead to his downfall.

And yet, in the end, it's possible that the biggest tragedy was his decision that he had been wrong, since it reflects giving up on the possibility of happiness and life, and instead accepting isolation, loneliness, and helplessness.

That said, the story continues after that, and he's now recovering, so if you move forward too far chronologically the comparison breaks down. I just think it's a great story of loss, with real themes that rival the ones in a lot of Shakespeare's tragedies.

[Anonymous No.4455331]

>>4455311
lol what ridiculous, repeated, physical torture happens to hamlet? to macbeth? to othello? to lear?

or right, their struggles are mental, because those aren't manipulative, and don't think making you squirm is good writing

[Anonymous No.4455345]

>>4455331
Oh, yeah. Theon has no mental struggles whatsoever. Deciding between hurting good people for a chance at being more than just "that guy we let love with us" and betraying your biological father, who you've spent most of your childhood thinking back on and wishing you could see again.

No internal conflict there.

Also, if you've read the books instead of just watching the show, the dick removal is ambiguous and the rest of the torture isn't really described in a drawn out way throughout them.

[Anonymous No.4455369]

>>4455345
>GURM not describing in retardedly intricate detail torture
I'm not the guy you're talking to but I smell bait.

[Anonymous No.4455381]

>>4455345
he has mental struggles that devolve into externalized hardships, that no matter how you swing it, are overstretched. how many great tragedies feature externalized hardships like that? they're cheap writing. oedipus rex, oresteia, hamlet, doctor faustus, do not cheaply externalize internal problems. it's a cheap way to make us feel sympathy. also, there's still no fundamental depth or ambiguity here, there's no good question of motivation, no subverted conclusion, the "villain" in the story is just pretty much an average devil-type (and without the originality, charm, and ambiguities of iago). it's a poorly paced tragedy, in bad style, with no depth. it does NOT compare to some of the greatest works in the english language, that feature so much depth that the best scholars still disagree about fundamental things involving main characters, such great style that they have defined the way people have written for centuries, and such great structure that they have been imitated for an equal length of time. there is no comparison.

[Anonymous No.4455414]

>>4455369
>>4455381
Most of the torture happens off screen, actually. It's told through flashbacks and implications.

[Anonymous No.4455462]

>a good plot twist.

you're fucking retarded

[Anonymous No.4455993]

>>4455045
But the whole point of role playing is to just have fun. On the other end of the spectrum you have happy-waifu-mother's-basement-autist-land where everyone's a totally ripped millionaire with their very own BFD(Blatant Fucktoy Dispensary).