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/lit/ - Literature

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4440107 No.4440107[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why is fantasy fiction fundamentally right-wing?

It's all about maintaining/resurrecting power structures, commoners and peasants are basically either cannon fodder or ignored, and there's a fuckton of racial supremacy.

I will give Tolkien as a counter-point; he did present greed as almost a disease and that rulers could be incompetent, but at the end of the day it was about jolly priviliged types having jolly priviliged adventures.

How, then, do we subvert right-wing tropes when we write fantasy fiction?

I had an idea for a novel that basically rips off the Hobbit except when they arrive the Dragon calmly informs them that he's ensuring capitalism survives by sitting on the gold hoard to prevent it causing hyper-inflation. Or something.

>> No.4440112

>>4440107
haha
this one thinks it matters how the fantasy world projects to the real world. or vice versa
what a tool

>> No.4440119

>>4440107
Is this a joke

>> No.4440123

the fuck are you talking about half of fantasy shit is just about commoners somehow gaining power and doing some stupid shit with it like overthrowing everything because poor
fantasy fiction is garbage but you've managed to be below it
gjop

>> No.4440121

>>4440112

When fantasy worlds are lazily-written enough to have the same structures as we do (monarchies, currency etc) then yes, there should be a degree of projection. I'm arguing that the projection that exists already gives the wrong message.

>> No.4440124

>>4440107
>at the end of the day it was about jolly priviliged types having jolly priviliged adventures
Your mind is poisoned

>> No.4440129 [DELETED] 

i was told to repost this in 3 threads


**YOU HAVE BEEN VISITED BY LE TOP LEL OF COMEDY GOLD** POST THIS IN 3 threads or lose your sides!
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>> No.4440136

>>4440129
Why would I need my sides anyways?
They're only another weakness on a fight against dragons.

>> No.4440138

there was a book mocking the fascism of fantasy literature that was made the recommended reading in some American racist party. Does anyone still know it's name?

>power structures
>racial supremacy
>counter-point
>priviliged
gb2pol. the folks you are trying to satirize are dreadfully irrelevant.

>> No.4440144

>>4440107
Because Left Wing fantasy is sold in "Political Theory" section of a bookstore.

>> No.4440148
File: 209 KB, 682x600, 1388638414567.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4440148

>>4440144

>> No.4440151

Fantasy isn't fundamentally right-winged though. Perhaps one could argue that the author's intentions could have been right-winged. But in terms of the books and its themes you read through an interpretative structure, it is possible to use any interpretative structure to decenter and deconstruct the 'obvious' meaning of the text. Read some Derrida.

>> No.4440156

>>4440107
top lel mate.

You do realise Tolkien fought in the First World War and witnessed his beautiful country turn to rot and ashes by the capitalistic monarchs of his time.

At that time all that was wrong with his world was due to power, which is merely the manifestation of greed to invoke your will upon others

>> No.4440165

>>4440156
How was UK ruined in WW1 again?

>> No.4440168
File: 3 KB, 390x238, 1301119773833.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4440168

>>4440151

>> No.4440169

>>4440165

um, fuck you - we were bombed by zeppelins, gothas, you name it. As well as losing 50,000 men a week.

>> No.4440173

>>4440165
You dont know the Dead Marshes was pretty much a resemblance of the battles fought at Verdun, Passchendaele and the Somme?

You are aware that Tolkien fought in the First World War right? That he returned to Britain a damaged men.

Alot of stuff in his books is a reference to those times. An analogy of his times zeitgeist

>> No.4440180

>>4440151
this

people shouldn't be too concerned about the Arts. Everything is subjective and everything can be interpreted in a certain way.

>> No.4440197
File: 133 KB, 512x1728, 1374238743425.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4440197

>>4440180
>Everything is subjective

There are correct and incorrect interpretations.

>> No.4440204
File: 376 KB, 800x1200, 1212780062566.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4440204

>>4440151
They are all set in that ancient world of divine right lordships and all the OP said is true. The last about Smaug protecting the value of gold and the market was hilarious (intentional or not. Its true. That gold gets out and the value goes down)

>>4440107
I believe some fantasy writers have caught onto that and written a few stories about revolutionary types with magic etc. Don't know any names, never been exposed to them. Write one if you can.

>> No.4440205

>>4440165
UK deserved it tbh

>> No.4440209

The Dwarves in LOTR were greedy because the ring of power awoke it in them.

>> No.4440218

>>4440107

Because all humans love tradition. Even liberals and progressives who must lie to themselves love tradition.

>> No.4440222

>>4440197
take it with a pinch of salt.

When considering contemporary cultural notations of racism, facism etc you can't use the same meaning of those words, the way they are interpretated, to describe things that happened in the past. One should always try to discard its 'modern glasses' when looking into the past. See the things as they were in their time and try to get in tune with the time in which the literature, or anything related, was written or described

>> No.4440240

>>4440197
Of course, any post-structuralist analysis of a text must still be logically valid. The point is that the theoretical framework we 'analyze' texts with to obtain their obvious themes is just as unstable as the ones we use in post-structuralism. As that image mentioned, literary theory is quite a polarizing field though - any good arguments for intentionalism would be interesting to read. That said, the image has nothing to do with what I was talking about. Literary signifier play under post-structuralism is completely different from subjectivity, since I am only advocating it aesthetically and not necessarily metaphysically, is different from making a value judgement on literature which is better explained using the tools of modern psychology, looking at what factors shape the behaviors of individuals.

>> No.4440265
File: 47 KB, 640x480, pig.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4440265

I can't tell if this is a troll post or if OP is seriously this retarded.

Either way, I give you a 6/10 for creativity by I didn't get rustled, but I can imagine that some people might have been rustled if they haven't had something to eat in a while.

>if this is serious, I hope you enjoy writing fanfics, because that's all you're going to be doing

>> No.4440268

>>4440173
Yes I've heard theory that LoTR places are based on his memories, Isengard being a tower in Edinburgh or something.

I still don't see how it makes it anti-capitalist.

>> No.4440278

>>4440222
I think that's where the most value is in literary interpretation to be honest. However, I do think post-structuralism has merit in finding hidden or 'playful' meanings in the text. At the point of new historicism criticism, literary analysis essentially becomes not a thing itself but completely dependent on history and/or psychology. Doing this isn't bad, but any other method of analysis, eg. new criticism, feminism, etc. are delegated arbitrary because they're just favoring some signifiers over others.

>> No.4440300

>>4440165

Massive war debts, massive casualty rates, Britain's economy was a fucking mess after WW1 and it contributed to the country's loss of its grip on the Empire.

>>4440107
The way I see it OP, a lot of fantasy bases itself on a feudal structure. That's not Capitalism or right wing, it's just the historical period that has most heavily influenced western fantasy literature.

Discworld's a pretty good example of how to subvert what you're referring to as right-wing tropes in fantasy fiction though.

>> No.4440313

>>4440107
Ursula K leGuin, China Mieville, Neil Gaiman
Firefly
Enjoy.

>> No.4440350

> commoners and peasants are basically either cannon fodder or ignored

Common people are boring.

> there's a fuckton of racial supremacy.

Ehhh. While not entirely wrong, it's a misguided belief. Tolkein had certain races labeled as bad and good because he wanted a mythology with black-and-white morality (he was Christian, which heavily influenced all his work). The orcs/uruk-hai/etc were representative of that 'pure evil', and the elves/men/etc were representative of the 'pure good', not because of racial superiority but because of the moral system governing his world.

You could additionally argue that the elves, men, dwarves, etc actually promote racial integration and equality because of how their initial hatred melts into brotherhood and friendship.

>> No.4440391

>>4440350
This. Just because a book shows racism/classism,m etc. it does not mean it promotes it necessarily.

>> No.4440458

>>4440391
how could people seriously impose "racism" onto book "races" which are more like different species than simply skin color and body type. They're clearly biologically determined far apart from the range of character and morality given/available to the humans. The point of labeling something racist and shunning it is that it's a prejudice getting in the way of what is more or less an "equivalent" body and social setting.

>> No.4440539

>>4440121
>kings and money = 'lazy writing'
Your troll-tard brain is showing.

>> No.4441525

>>4440107
because if it was cultural marxist-leninist fairy tale hogwash no one would be able to suspend their disbelief and the shit wouldn't sell

also, it's like asking why it has swords and magic in it: because it's what defines this genre fiction and so do traditional power structures

>> No.4441622

>>4440156
But Tolkien was a monarchist

>> No.4441668

>How, then, do we subvert right-wing tropes when we write fantasy fiction?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

The novel is based on the premise that the Tolkien account is a "history written by the victors". In Eskov's version of the story, Mordor is described as a peaceful country on the verge of an industrial revolution, that is a threat to the war-mongering and imperialistic faction represented by Gandalf (whose attitude has been described by Saruman as "crafting the Final Solution to the Mordorian problem") and the elves.

For example, Barad-dûr, Sauron's citadel, is described in chapter 2 as "...that amazing city of alchemists and poets, mechanics and astronomers, philosophers and physicians, the heart of the only civilization in Middle-earth to bet on rational knowledge and bravely pitch its barely adolescent technology against ancient magic. The shining tower of the Barad-dûr citadel rose over the plains of Mordor almost as high as Orodruin like a monument to Man – free Man who had politely but firmly declined the guardianship of the Dwellers on High and started living by his own reason. It was a challenge to the bone-headed aggressive West, which was still picking lice in its log ‘castles’ to the monotonous chanting of scalds extolling the wonders of never-existing Númenor."

>> No.4441673

>>4441525
>>also, it's like asking why it has swords and magic in it: because it's what defines this genre fiction and so do traditional power structures

So, your answer to "why is fantasy right-wing" is "because the genre is defined by right-wing concepts". Is this not a tautology?

>> No.4441993

>>4441673
no it's not, if you want left wing "fantasy" fiction just go straight to marx & engels and/or tumblr

>> No.4442148

>>4441993
>no it's not, if you want left wing "fantasy" fiction just go straight to marx & engels and/or tumblr

I'm sorry, that joke was already played out by here:

>>4440144
>>4440148

In other news: Right winger is uncreative, just like the fantasy genre.

>> No.4442252

> it was about jolly priviliged types having jolly priviliged adventures.


8/10 why does lit even respond to this

>> No.4443835

>>4442148
>Left-Wing
>relevant
Ha, ha. Oh, wow.

>> No.4443885

>>4440458
it's called "allegory"

>> No.4443887

>>4440138
The Iron Dream is what you're looking for bro:

A Hitler self-insert leading an army of Aryan supermen against Jewish orc hordes to preserve their genetic superiority

>> No.4443898

>>4440107
Because it's plebeian escapist rubbish.

>> No.4443904

>>4443835
Always remember: this was the best use of your time.

>> No.4444082

>>4443904
Not him but, what was the last time a left-wing idea achieved anything useful?

>> No.4444126

>>4444082
Jonestown, 1978.

>> No.4444151

>>4440107

>jolly priviliged adventures

>a bunch of homeless dwarves with a fat midget who lives alone and without friends and an elderly vagrant

Really?

Fantasy is only "fundamentally right-wing" for drooling retards who can't stop blowing Moorcock for five seconds to actually read the texts they're trying to critique.

>> No.4444202

>>4444126
lel
Accurate, though.

>> No.4444280

I think OP's mostly correct

Just replace "right wing" with "traditionalist"

Also OP, your book idea would be a 10/10
not really

>> No.4444323

>>4443904
lol

>> No.4444363

>>4440350

> the elves/men/etc were representative of the 'pure good',

confirmed for not having read the books are poorly understanding them

There were many downright evil men in LOTR. In fact that ability of man to be corrupted is an important theme. (Which as so many things in Tolkien, can be traced back to the Great Wars). The Haradrim are men who fight for Sauron. You have the corsairs of Umbar who fight with Sauron.

The Elves also aren't 'pure good'. They are capable of an incredible amount of not giving a fuck. What doesn't bother them, they dont care for. Had Sauron's evil stopped after destroying Gondor, they wouldn't have given 2 shits about it.

The dwarves have unleashed much evil with their greed on many different occasions. There are even bad hobbits ffs.

If you think LOTR was 'pure good' vs 'pure evil', you should read the books again.

>> No.4444368

Steven Erikson certainly isn't right wing with his Malazan series.

>> No.4444369

>>4444368
And his serie is also rather niche

>> No.4444376

>>4444151
The Baggins family are basically country nobility, rich enough not to have to bother with actual AGRICULTURE or any other form of work to survive in a completely agricultural community. The likeliest explanation is that they live off the rent paid to them by less well off hobbits, like the Gamgee's.

Hell, the whole Frodo-Samwise relationship is an idealized master-servant relationship, with Samwise truly and honestly enjoying nothing in life except taking care of his master's needs.

>> No.4444381

>>4440107
>I will give Tolkien as a counter-point; he did present greed as almost a disease
That's not really a counter-point. Hating industrial progress and capitalism for the social disruption they casue is a classically conservative position, though in the modern era it constantly conflicts with conservatism as the defence of capitalism. This is why people say Thatcher was a radical, not a true conservative.

>> No.4444490

>>4440107

>commoners and peasants are basically either cannon fodder or ignored

hence the term 'commoners'
they're common, thus they are boring and irrelevant.

>> No.4444942

>>4444490
>being this much of a pleb

>> No.4444958

>>4444082
>>4444126
>>4444202
The adults are talking, child. Go back to your table.