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/lit/ - Literature

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4379969 No.4379969[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Yeah, yeah, another fucking /phil/ thread. If it is only possible for an internal meaning of life to exist, how would an atheist deal with the problem of death and the shortness of life?

>> No.4379972

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heideggerian_terminology#Being-toward-death

>> No.4379991

>internal
What's about this? Meaning is a relationship.

And you have to believe in something to function. An atheist just believes in different things.

You can put it in this way: everyone who do something has an excuse to do something. In this way, another thing beyond this something works as the consolation for the iminent end of something.

You take life as a whole and say "okay, this is going to end, but..." and add your meaning of life from there. They are all useless and therefore, all useful.

>> No.4380014

>>4379969

I turned to occultism.

>> No.4380029
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4380029

>>4379969
By reading. (And/or movies or whatever)

It fills ones head with false memories of other lives lead.

>> No.4380073

I keep thinking that the end of life is not a finality but an ambiguous limit

An atheist need not the end of life be more important than the life that is lived

So in essence, the shortness of life and death are dealt the same way as the longevity of life and birth

>> No.4380078

>>4379969
>problem of death and the shortness of life
They're not problems.

>> No.4380091

Life and death are concepts that exist out of convenience. They are not logically concrete.

Is there a more specific question you can ask in the same vein?

>> No.4380104

Can someone create a reading list for me so I can work my way up to Hegel?

>> No.4380105

>>4380014
How far do you take it, because it may not be stupid if it's the absolutely bare amount.

>> No.4380110

>>4380104
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_important_publications_in_philosophy

>> No.4380135

>>4379969
think of the impermanence of life as a song, or a piece of culinary art. though it is eaten or ends, it can still be art. also, read man's search for meaning.

>> No.4380196

>>4380110
Should I really read all that Plato and Aristotle?

I doubt many of the philosophers before hegel are also necessary.

>> No.4380212

>>4380078

External meaning to life most commonly comes from religion. I am not an atheist, but I recognize that atheists have led meaningful lives. I'm probably completely wrong, but my understanding is that any secular universal principle to base the meaning of life on has the same problem as religion/God's plan. So external meaning of life likely does not exist, or at least that's what I'm left with.

Optimism is left with internal meaning for life. Except, if there is no afterlife, this meaning is pretty much completely devoid of value. I don't understand how this isn't a problem for optimistic atheists.

>>4379991

I couldn't make sense out of this at all.

>>4380073

>an atheist need not the end of life be more important than the life that is lived

If the meaning of life comes from inside individuals, and there is no afterlife, then death robs everyone's life of meaning. I need more elaboration on this point.

>> No.4380217

>>4380212
>if there is no afterlife, this meaning is pretty much completely devoid of value
Why would you say that?

>> No.4380220

>>4380104
Begin by reading all of the pre-socratics in the original Greek. Well, let me restate that: begin by understanding the basic religious themes of the world. For this I would recommend reading all of the works of Joseph Campbell, subscribing to a cultural anthropology journal, and analyzing all cultures for their common religious elements. Come back to me when you've done this.

>> No.4380219
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4380219

>>4380196

>> No.4380223

>how would an atheist deal with the problem of death and the shortness of life?
It's not a problem

>> No.4380241

Buddhism. Seriously, the four noble truths explains everything without resorting to the supernatural. Fear of death and fear of aging is one of the main reason why religion exists. The judeo christian faith answer to those questions is that you live forever in heaven. The hindu's believe you can merge with the infinite. Buddhists say their is a way to overcome these fear and that path is the eightfold path.

>> No.4380260

>>4380241
agreed Buddhism embraces that life needs no meaning to be significant and teaches how to deal with the impending issue we all face, mortality

>> No.4380269

I write. I don't want any kids and I think a mental/cultural legacy would be a thousand times better, anyway.

>> No.4380271

>>4380241
You might as well recommend Christianity if you're going to strip away the religious bits and leave it as aphoristic literature, dude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_humanism

>> No.4380277

>>4380223
So you don't mind if I come over to your house and kill you?

>> No.4380279

>>4380241
It doesn't matter if something is supernatural or not. A unified existence has implications that /look/ supernatural, and that's enough to prevent it from becoming commonly accepted.

>> No.4380280

>>4380241
>Buddhism
>"If you kill yourself, you won't be afraid of death!"
I'll take Christianity's noble lie over that.

>> No.4380281

>>4380277
You can try, but my biological imperative will cause me to physically defend myself.

>> No.4380283

>>4379969
It is certain that we have not discovered all there is to know just yet. I give being the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps in my final hours, I will finally know peace?

>> No.4380284

>>4380277
Just because it is desirable to live long does not mean it is always desirable to live longer

>> No.4380287

>>4380281
Would you mind wiring me all your money, and then doing the deed yourself? I think that would be more eco-friendly.

>> No.4380288

>>4380269
You're still grasping on to the notion of eternal fame. What happens when you're old and never achieve the greatness that you fooled yourself into believing? Legacy will kill you. Instead, write for the sake of writing. Work for the sake of working.

>>4380271
OP said he was an atheist and wanted an answer to the problem of death and old age. Besides there's no reason to call it Christianity if you take away the whole divine notion. It'll just be humanism.

>> No.4380291

>>4380271
>christianity without christianity
>laughing_zizeks

>> No.4380290

>>4380287
Why are you conflating a lack of fear of death with the desire for death?

>> No.4380295

>>4380290
No, I am not. You have established that you are apathetic towards death. I am not as advanced as you. By killing yourself and giving me your money, you would not deprive yourself of anything you value, and I would gain. It's a null-win.

>> No.4380300
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4380300

>>4380283

>> No.4380305

>>4380283
You can know peace now.

You wont know anything after death.

>> No.4380306

>>4380295
your logic:
>you are apathetic towards niggers continuing to exist
>give me all your money and go and kill niggers
>you will not deprive yourself of anything you value, and I would gain

see my last post

>> No.4380309

>>4380295
Fear of death is a form of suffering. Do you really not wish for an individual to live life with as little suffering as possible?

>> No.4380311

>>4380280
What?

>> No.4380314

>>4380277
>>4380287
For fucks sake, whenever anyone mentions not being afraid of death some belligerent ignoramus has to chime in with this completely illogical thought.

>> No.4380315

>>4380306
I would have never imagined that a tripfag would pervert an argument into complete unintelligibility. Until you are willing to discuss things seriously, I'm done.

>> No.4380317

>>4380315
muh political correctness
get the fuck off 4chan faggot

>> No.4380320

>>4380288

>OP said he was an atheist

I never said that. Also, I'm looking specifically for how an atheist that believes there is a meaning of life to begin with (as opposed to a pessimistic atheist, which I understand) handles the idea of how death affects the meaning of life, rather than personal issues such as fear of death.

>> No.4380321

The only problem with death is that most people believe in subjective experience, and therefore death means the universe disappears. It takes such twisted thinking to believe this that the idea should have died out from taking too much energy to hold.

>> No.4380330

>>4380320
Life has a beginning and an end, what's so hard about that?

>> No.4380338

>>4380320
Depends on what the Atheist chooses for his meaning of life. It can be art, or family, or anything. The idea of annihilation only makes the "meaning of life" more... meaningful. So he'll be more prone to pursue his goals more than someone who believes in an afterlife.

>> No.4380341

>>4380320
There's a certain amount of things they want to do, they do them, and they're happy to die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZK67jeBJRm0

>> No.4380372

>>4380341

You seem to be saying that a person's happiness or satisfaction with their life is the basis on which a person should judge the meaning of life, but pessimists can also achieve this.

>>4380338

>art, or family

Those tend to be based around "leaving a legacy," which is external.

>pursue his goals more than someone who believes in the afterlife

In my experience, belief in the afterlife does not drive people to apathy. I didn't mean to intend that atheists are less motivated people.

>>4380330

The absolute version of that view lends itself to pessimism.

>> No.4380376

>>4380372

>mean to intend

*mean to imply

>> No.4380377

>>4380372
>The absolute version of that view lends itself to pessimism.
Explain further

>> No.4380406

>>4380372
That's not what I'm saying at all. Stop reading into things that aren't there. What I explicitly stated was a reply to your question of how an atheist which believes there's a meaning to life (pursuing certain experiences) is able to 'handle' the idea of how death affects their meaning (those experiences they pursue). The reply is that death does not affect their meaning, because once they have fulfilled their meaning they do not worry about mortality any further.

>> No.4380440

>>4380212
>then death robs everyone's life of meaning

We live life because we will die one day, knowing that we die, life becomes worth living

>> No.4380571

>>4380212
I think that's right. I hate to sound like a nihilist but I will because I think death robs life of all meaning.
>>4380440
You just told us what, but not why.

>> No.4380580

>>4380571
>death robs life of all meaning.
Why would you say that?

>> No.4380598

>>4380320
Define meaning of life in that context.

>> No.4380602

>>4380440
>You just told us what, but not why

The why is in life itself

As individuals we cannot objectify the transition of time for another person, the meaning is individualistic

The phrase -everyone's life- gives the sense that the journey is equitable. It is if it is taken as the object of life.
But when in the context of one person, it becomes something else.

>> No.4380685

>>4380571
>death robs life of all meaning.

pls read heidegger

http://belate.wordpress.com/2011/12/26/heidegger-being-time-death/

>> No.4380807

>>4380685
>first heidegger
lol pleb, go read some Harry Potter
jk