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/lit/ - Literature

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4332686 No.4332686[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why did the patriarchal civilizations of old create and worship Female gods with powers that rivaled their male counterparts ?

It doesn't really make any sense, why did they then discriminate against normal women ?

>> No.4332694

you only worship women who are hot

>> No.4332698

>>4332686
gods =/= humans

>> No.4332706

BECAUSE THEY WERE SPIRITUALLY NOBLE CIVILIZATIONS; THEY DID NOT SUCCUMB TO GENDER FALSE DICHOTOMIES LIKE THE "WESTERN WORLD" HAS.

GENDER BASED DISCRIMINATION DID NOT EXIST.

>> No.4332711
File: 136 KB, 250x250, chill out bro it's just a sword in your head.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4332711

Maybe the whole notion of a patriarchy, defined as two monolithic groups of male "oppressors" and female "oppressed" is a myth, or better still, a political concept of marxist intellectuals who wanted to use females as a proletariat in the communist revolution.

The real world was more complicated. Some females had power, some men were discriminated, if you were a peasant chances are your life would be shitty as a man or as a female. If you were a aristocrat you could receive education even as a female.

>> No.4332717

>>4332706
women not being allowed to vote =/= gender based discrimination?

please elaborate

>> No.4332718

a male god of love or beauty would be gayer than the greeks already were

>> No.4332719

>>4332686
Yeah, seems strange right? I wrote a paper about how societies have been aware of gender/race equality much longer than laws suggest, and used examples like this to show that the general population had little problem accepting women as intelligent/powerful in literature and mythology.

captcha: ansgst especial

>> No.4332744

>>4332711
That actually sounds more Marxist than your straw man example, ie everything boils down to class.

>> No.4332757

>>4332719
>how societies have been aware of race equality much longer than laws suggest

like?

>> No.4332789

Well, Zeus did want to rival the female power of conception and birthed Athena himself. So there is that.

But there were Goddesses for inspirational and motherly purposes. Gods aren't very nurturing. And then there are things like Valkyries and Athena who weren't really nurturing at all and were all about glory and victory in battle.

>> No.4332804

>>4332718
you mean like Apollo/Cupid

>> No.4332812

>>4332686
What goddesses had powers rivaling gods? They're all ultimately subservient to the male counterparts, namely Zeus/Jupiter.

>>4332711
Please just kill yourself.

>> No.4332814

>>4332804
ya got me

>> No.4332837

>>4332812
Wasn't Nox said to be more powerful and mysterious than all the other gods?
And there's always the Fates/Norns.

>> No.4332870

>>4332812
No god has powers subservient to Zeus or Jove. And stop calling them "male" he banged girls in the shape of a bull several times, you can just call him a bull if you want to.

>> No.4332873

Society worshiped the concept of womanhood while discriminating against the individuals.

>> No.4332878

Also how does Ganymede fit into the patriarchal cis white male role?

>> No.4332912

>>4332757
Well, not equality. But aware that Africans were not retarded animals or subhuman. Othello being accepted as a lead character by English audiences, black Legionaries in Rome (like Saint Maurice), and a few medieval paintings of blacks in Europe where their race seems inconsequential.

>> No.4332924

>>4332912
>Othello
>Black

>> No.4332928

>>4332924
Yeah what you're implying came up while I was researching but that was one of the bigger points of my paper and I honestly didn't really care, the generally accepted idea of Othello as black supported my thesis so I used it.

>> No.4332933

>>4332924
>Othello is referred to as a “Barbary horse” (1.1.113) and a “lascivious Moor” (1.1.127). In III.III he denounces Desdemona's supposed sin as being "black as mine own face."

>> No.4332962

>>4332912
Not to mention Arthurian legend, which featured multiple "moors", including Morien

>> No.4332963

>>4332706
>the ancient civilizations were not misogynistic
Ell oh fucking ell.

>> No.4332965

>>4332962
moors aren't black, get it through your thick skull. >>4332933
only americans with one drop rule and people reading into the symbolism will think this, it's pretty clear that shakespeare was considering the political situation in spain at the time

>> No.4332984
File: 357 KB, 515x1000, moorish-guard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4332984

>>4332965

>> No.4332986

>>4332965
"Moor" was a catch all term for North Africans and Muslims, ingrate.
Because a number of moors were Black! :0
At any rate, Morien is described as Black. Why do whites have to whitewash history? Oh, wait.

>> No.4332987

>>4332965
There's fair debate about it, right? So it's not a question that will be resolved on /lit/.

I wonder if scholars of Shakespeare closer to the time he lived thought of Othello as a subsaharan black.

>> No.4333004

>>4332965

Othello was first played by a black guy in London in 1833. In 2001, Eamonn Walker played Othello in a British TV adaptation.

The one drop rule dates as law in the US dates to the 20th century. Some US states had classification systems that acknowledged mixed races.

>> No.4333012

>>4332986
Are you actually telling me that you belief that the Arthurian legend stemming from folktales around 500 ad actually contain have black Africans in them?

>>4332984
Holy fuck a picture on the internet portrays a moorish guard as black

>>4332986
They were mostly arab just as many of the towns and colonies that lined the north african coast. Also calling someone black doesn't mean they have to be sub-saharan african. They could be swarthy.

>>4332987
First blacks in England arrived approx. 1500-1600 at very few numbers. It is unlikely.

>> No.4333031

>>4332965
Need more of Shakespeare's words?

>Even now, now, very now, an old black ram
>Is tupping your white ewe.

>> No.4333034

>>4333012
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/288355

>> No.4333035

>>4333012
You're clearly grasping at straws right now. Doubt you've even read Othello, the entire play is based around how he's black and fucking white bitches.

>> No.4333041

Please read the second sex op. Simone answers this question in her historical survey. Do you not see the inconsistency between men defining roles for women, even if seemingly positive, and true gender agency?

>> No.4333069

>>4333012
>Are you actually telling me that you belief that the Arthurian legend stemming from folktales around 500 ad actually contain have black Africans in them?
No, but the twelfth-century Frenchie or whomever inserted a Moorish character, which is just as good. Pre-modern is pre-modern.
I mean, unless the Moor originates solely from The Once And Future King, which is entirely possible.

>> No.4333072

>>4333031
>>4333034
>>4333035
ruh roh

>> No.4333188

>People like this one black dude in the 16th century
>This must mean racism never existed !
Bravo /lit/

>> No.4333198

>>4333188
But no one said that.

>> No.4333234

>>4333188
No, this debate started because I brought up an essay I wrote about how the general public was aware on some level that oppressed groups were not inferior far before the law recognized africans and women as equal citizens.

In my conclusion I wrote that racism and sexism throughout history are more despicable because "we really thought they were inferior" is not an excuse when plays and novels about rebellious women and african soldiers killing white people are widely enjoyed by the masses.

>> No.4333249

>>4333234
Most evil exists because normal decent people are also hypocrites. It takes a special kind of person to build an ethics up from basic principles,

>> No.4333254

Othello wasn't black, he was a moor, which is different.

>> No.4333263

>>4333254
Moors can be black, and judging by the descriptive language in the play, Othello was pretty fucking black.

>> No.4333292

>>4333254
the only people that say no moor could ever have black skin are stormfags or insecure Spaniards

>> No.4333304

>>4332686
Surely the answer is as simple as this?
There are Gods
These gods created humans in their own image
They created Man first, and then thought that he needed a fuckbuddy
They create Woman, presumably in the image of Female Gods - I guess this is based on the assumption that man was created in the Male Gods' image. If you accept this, I guess you have to accept that Woman was created in the Female Gods' image.
Now we have male and female gods, and male and female humans.
Gods created the humans
Humans can't do dick
Therefore, Gods are more powerful than humans.
The humans know that man is stronger than woman
They then presume that in the case of gods, it must be the same.
They also presume that even the weakest God is better than the strongest human.
Thus we have our hierarchy:
Male Gods
Female Gods
Man
Woman

>> No.4333307

>>4333263
The notion of a black race didn't exist back then, however.

>> No.4333322

>>4333031
>Even now, now, very now, an old black ram
>Is tupping your white ewe.

does this mean what I think

>> No.4333328

>>4333322
Shakespeare was a great bald bag of mostly sexual euphemisms.

>> No.4333336

>>4333328
so, white people have been fascinated with big black cock for some time, huh?

>> No.4333347

>>4333336
>so, people have been fascinated with cock for some time, huh?
FTFY

>> No.4333351

>>4333347
>implying black cock isn't bigger and better

>> No.4333365

>>4332711
>Maybe the whole notion of a patriarchy, defined as two monolithic groups of male "oppressors" and female "oppressed" is a myth
Yes, that is a mythical version of patriarchy. Try looking it up.

>> No.4333383
File: 112 KB, 500x820, Shlain - Alphabet vs the Goddess.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4333383

>>4332686
<- A seriously good answer for you in book form OP.

>>4332962
>>4332986
Just get a different name-thing already.

>> No.4333402

>>4332717
And men weren't allowed to raise children. Just because you dictate one role to one sex doesn't imply one is superior.

>> No.4333464

>>4333304
Zeus gave women to men as a punishment. Get your mythology straightened out.

>> No.4333533

>>4333402
While men worked in the fields and made every decision for themselves, their families, and their communities, women worked in the fields and were 'allowed' to care for helpless creatures that need 24-hour attention.

Doesn't anyone think about the poor men?

>> No.4333571

>>4332804
Apollo wasn't the god of love, dingus. That was Eros.

>> No.4333572

>>4333533
Here we go.

>> No.4333576

>>4333464
That's hilarious.

>> No.4333577

Discrimination between classes in many instances superseded discrimination against sexes. See the existence of Queen that supersede their husbands or have no husbands. The fact that they were royal superseded the fact that they were female.

The same principle can be applied to a pantheon. Female gods still had may female distinct parts. The virgin goddesses being the most obvious example.

>> No.4333608

>>4332812
Gaia was equal to Uranus and superior to all else, the less "personified" primordial deities (which are often superior to the gods and titans) had many females, like Nyx, and Chaos (the original sole essence of the universe) was often portrayed feminine.

>> No.4333647

>>4333571
Apollo was the God of love true love, Eros was the love of sensual and sexual love.

>> No.4333648

>>4332744
Marxist used Feminists as shock-troops. Much like older, more sophisticated racists co-opted the skinhead movement and made it racist. Don't expect the Feminists to actually understand the True Faith, they are mere cannon-fodder in the Marxist attempt to instigate global revolution.

>> No.4333659

>>4333533

Males never decided things. They argued over them.

Why are you guys ascribing moral agency to selective pressures?

Who the fuck else was supposed to argue over things but males? Gestation, internal fertilization, and resource scarcity puts pressure on males to be more territorial, aggressive and dominant. Don't mention Bonobos, their selective pressures were and are completely different from humans.

The industrial revolution alleviated resource scarcity in most of the world and nukes have prevented our historically preferred method of competition.

>> No.4333752

>>4332873
hm, I think I agree with this

>> No.4334053

>>4333351
that's racist

>> No.4334160

Just because women had supportive roles doesn't mean they weren't respected or idolized on some level.

>> No.4335115

>>4333659
Are you saying that women don't argue over things?

Have you ever talked to a girl?

>> No.4335127

>>4332686
Because they were enlightened.

>> No.4335185

because women had power in their societies, just because there was a separation of roles that doesnt mean men>women, they were dependent on each other

>> No.4335188

>>4334160
yes, men were assertive but that doesnt mean they were tyrants whose whole purpose in life was to oppress helpless womyn
they had to be assertive, the community needed breeders and strong soldiers to defend the polis
it is not like men chose to live in a world of constant warfare, blame the persian empire

>> No.4335193

So in order of which is more important

Class>Race>Sex?