/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.4301887]

How can one be an atheist without also being a nihilist?

[Anonymous No.4301892]

>>4301887

You realize that Nietzsche was not a nihilist, right ?

[Anonymous No.4301889]

who gives a fuck

[Anonymous No.4301896]

by finding inherent meaning in things other than God, obviously

[Anonymous No.4301902]

>>4301892
He literally said "I believe in nothing".

[Anonymous No.4301903]

>>4301887
>assumes all values comes from religion
>year is 2013

[Anonymous No.4301916]

>>4301902
He literally didn't, and you're a literal retard whose knowledge of philosophy would improve a thousandfold with literally 10 minutes of wikipedia-browsing

[Anonymous No.4301920]

>>4301902
lol

[Anonymous No.4301925]

>>4301902
No, that was the germans from "The Big Lebowski".

[Anonymous No.4301929]

>>4301887

Say what you want, at least it's an ethos

[Anonymous No.4301930]

>>4301896
>>4301903
Then from where does meaning come?

[Anonymous No.4301935]

>>4301930
You need to find it for yourself, that the point of becoming a ubermensch

[Anonymous No.4301938]

>>4301935
>>4301930
wow you guys are really really butchering nietzsche

[Anonymous No.4301942]

>>4301903

would you please present a non-religious argument for the existence of objective morality?

[Anonymous No.4301945]

>>4301887

That's simple. Reality offers more than enough to give meaning to your life.

By the way, I don't understand why God is supposed to give meaning to your life. For instance, what's the meaning of God's existence?

[Anonymous No.4301946]

>>4301925
>>4301930
Can we talk about how no one realizes that the title refers to how the Dude asks to be a Little Lebowski Urban Achiever?

[Anonymous No.4301950]

>>4301942

The sufferings of sentient entities

[Anonymous No.4301951]

You allow life to be filled with the meaning of the earth and then act meaningfully.

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ No.4301955]

>>4301930
What of your life what you will.

Sounds dangerous, bad people could take this up and do really awful things! *Shudders* Hey wait, they do that anyway. And in the name of gods usually.
I prefer to ease suffering, help where I can. We're all in this world such a finite time. Its weird to exist, but its... its... Its all there is.

[Anonymous No.4301974]

>>4301945
>Reality offers more than enough

please elaborate

>By the way, I don't understand why God is supposed to give meaning to your life

'purpose' might be a better word than 'meaning'. worshipping God is what we were created to do. humanity created tools that each have their purpose: a hammer drives nails, a screwdriver screws screws etc... God created humanity to worship Him. By fulfilling our purpose we are rewarded with peace, joy and other spiritual gifts.

>what's the meaning of God's existence?

it is beyond human comprehension; we are finite beings, how could we understand the infinite?

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ No.4301976]

>>4301930
Make of it what you will

[Anonymous No.4301982]

>>4301950

that isn't an argument. why should i care about suffering? why shouldn't i do whatever it takes satisfy my desires if that's what pleases me?

[Anonymous No.4301983]

>>4301930
self-reasoning. you determine your own values based off of art, philosophy, and science, while taking into account various social norms (ie, you can't value rape or murder because it will alienate you from society)

[Anonymous No.4301991]

>>4301982

>why should i care about suffering?

Smash your head into a wall and see how apathetic you are to pain and suffering

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ No.4301995]

>>4301974
>how could we understand the infinite?
Especially since there is none
Or, DRRRRR, if there is one, he/she/it doesn't know or care about us. This has been covered a couple thousand years ago.

[Anonymous No.4301997]

>>4301991

i'll happily concede that i care about my own suffering, but why should i care about the suffering of people i don't care about, or better yet why should i care if my enemies suffer?

[Anonymous No.4302002]

>>4301887
by being a buddhist or taoist for one.
or by being any other cocksuckinglabelsarepointlessyoupseudointellectualfaggot-ist

[Anonymous No.4302006]

>>4301997

Because you are not alone in the world, and hurting your enemies makethem much more likely to retaliate and hurt you back. You already said you cared about your own suffering, and hurting others is a good way to bring more your way.

[Anonymous No.4302004]

>>4301995
>This has been covered a couple thousand years ago.

well i'm glad you've got it all figured out then.

[Anonymous No.4302010]

>>4301974

>please elaborate

There's more than enough to do here and now, isn't there? I mean, the world is far from a perfect place, so making it a better place for people to live in seems like a good start.

>worshipping God is what we were created to do.

According to some ancient desert people. Are you going to let them dictate your life? Don't you trust yourself enough that you need people who would be completely lost in your time and place to tell you how to live your life?

>it is beyond human comprehension; we are finite beings, how could we understand the infinite?

But then, wouldn't this mean that by extension, you have no idea what the meaning of your life is?

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ No.4302023]

>>4301997
You have enemies because you don't care.

What should we do with our time in this world? Ease the suffering as best we can. Some wont, they are dicks. Most people don't like dicks and should ostracize them. What's so hard to understand?

[Anonymous No.4302027]

yes, if they are retarded enough to assign value to anything other than the omnipotent force

[Anonymous No.4302029]

>>4302006
>hurting your enemies make them much more likely to retaliate and hurt you back

lol i think the japanese are much less likely to hurt us now that we've nuked them. if i have the power to dominate my enemies, why shouldn't i?

>and hurting others is a good way to bring more your way.

but what if i'd prefer the short term satisfaction of hurting someone over long term conflict avoidance.

[Anonymous No.4302041]

>>4302023
>should ostracize them
>should

what gives you the right to tell me what i should or shouldn't do? maybe i like being a dick and i don't care about what other people think. maybe you have something i want (or need) why can't i just take it from you?

[Anonymous No.4302042]

>>4301997
You don't have to care. You can still be moral without empathy. You can intellectually determine that a society where no one took care of anyone else would be objectively worse off without actually having to care about anyone. I don't care about the people without homes in the Philippines because I don't know any of them, but I still donated because I don't want to live in a world where people didn't help each other

[Anonymous No.4302044]

>>4302029
>lol i think the japanese are much less likely to hurt us now that we've nuked them. if i have the power to dominate my enemies, why shouldn't i?

Because if you were powerful you would't have to because your enemies would be of no consequence.

>but what if i'd prefer the short term satisfaction of hurting someone over long term conflict avoidance.

Then you are more beast than man.

[Anonymous No.4302050]

Buddhidm, Marxism, logical positivism, all completely compatable with Atheism.

[Anonymous No.4302052]

>>4302041
>maybe i like being a dick and i don't care about what other people think.
That's fine, but the fact is that other people care, and being a dick will inhibit you ability to form relationships.

[Anonymous No.4302058]

>>4302029

>lol i think the japanese are much less likely to hurt us now that we've nuked them. if i have the power to dominate my enemies, why shouldn't i?

Because unless you kill them they can comeback, and onlookers don't like a warmongerer since they are threathening their peace.
>but what if i'd prefer the short term satisfaction of hurting someone over long term conflict avoidance.

Then you value short term more than long term. It's a way to live, but it does often end up badly,

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ No.4302076]

>>4302041
Because you don't want me to have to kill you.
I know this circular argument well enough. You haven't stumped me, you're just explaining why there are dicks dicking around and ruining things for everyone.
Now, has god and all those lofty morals handed down from "the good book" done anything to keep dicks from dicking around? No. No, of course not. Some of those dicks are dicks because of "gods laws"

[Anonymous No.4302081]

>>4302010
>There's more than enough to do here and now, isn't there?

sure, but you're going to die. why should i work to make the world a better place? maybe i'm lazy and prefer to steal from people, what's wrong with that?

>Don't you trust yourself enough

i do. i have had first-hand experiences in my life that correlate to what those desert people wrote thousands of years ago. it's amazing to me that given the epochs that separate us that i still find wisdom in their words.

>you have no idea what the meaning of your life is?

i know nothing, i only have faith that what i believe in true.

[Anonymous No.4302083]

>>4301887
Because humans aren't machines that explode if you put contrasting ideas in at the same time; never underestimate that quality in people

[Anonymous No.4302093]

>>4302081

What are those first hand experiences ? I hear often about them, but i fail to see them in anything more than random chance, most of the time.

[Anonymous No.4302094]

>>4302044
>Because if you were powerful you would't have to because your enemies would be of no consequence.

but what if their mere existence offends my pride that anyone should oppose me? why shouldn't i completely wipe them out so that i can be certain they will never grow strong? or why can't i torment them for my amusement?

>then you are more beast than man

says you. why should i care about your definitions of 'beast' and 'man'. in my own mind i'm the greatest man who ever lived and you're just envious of me.

[Anonymous No.4302100]

>>4302081

>sure, but you're going to die. why should i work to make the world a better place? maybe i'm lazy and prefer to steal from people, what's wrong with that?

People have been dying before you. If they had given up on life, would you have thanked them for it?

>i have had first-hand experiences in my life that correlate to what those desert people wrote thousands of years ago.

And? Why should their comments on it be more important than yours?

>i know nothing, i only have faith that what i believe in true.

So you admit that you don't know what the meaning of your life is?

[Anonymous No.4302101]

>>4301902
>what he said
>what he did

did it ever occur to you that authors can lie too?

[Anonymous No.4302104]

>>4302093

it was a feeling i had while i was praying. i felt like i was enveloped in warm light.

i know it sounds gay, but that's how it felt and it affected me enough to make me want to believe.

[Anonymous No.4302113]

>>4302094

Then, you are fine living a life of total indulgence to yourself. Many others have before, and there will be plenty more to do so in the future. Go ahead, nothing we could say to change it anyway.

[Anonymous No.4302122]

>>4302104

Fine with me, just giving you a heads up that you've invalidated any arguments from subjectivity

[Anonymous No.4302129]

>>4302100
>If they had given up on life, would you have thanked them for it?

sure because maybe if they all killed themselves i never would have been born and then never would have had to experience pain.

>Why should their comments on it be more important than yours?

i wasn't raised in the church, so i experienced life living by my rules and i was unhappy. when i applied their teachings to my life it made me feel better. i am an extremely selfish person.

[Anonymous No.4302128]

>>4302104

It's not gay, it's just endorphins, really. Same as when you get back from running,

[Anonymous No.4302146]

>>4302094

If your pride can be offended then then you aren't very secure in your strength. If you fear them growing strong enough to contest, then you aren't strong enough. If you torment for amusement, then again, you are more beast than man.

The definition of man as the rational animal created in God's image is at the foundation of western civilization. If you are so deluded to act without consulting the impsum esse of rationality found in humanity's privileged discourse, then there is no way that you could have ever risen to power. Your existence is meaningless to everyone else. You are the madman on the street who nobody pays any attention to. You would typify what it means to be powerless.

[Anonymous No.4302147]

>>4302129
>and then never would have had to experience pain.

Or joy

>when i applied their teachings to my life it made me feel better. i am an extremely selfish person.

You can find empathy in just about every religious and philosophical tradition. In fact, to my knowledge, only Nietzsche explicitly rails against it. What's the difference between the Bible and The world as Will and Representation in this regard?

[Anonymous No.4302150]

>>4302113
>Go ahead, nothing we could say to change it anyway.

god ur a pussy, give me all your money right now and if you don't i'll kill you. what now?

[Anonymous No.4302151]

>>4302129

I was not raisedin the church, and my parents teached me that not stealing and being nice to other made it easy to have friends and feel good with myself. That's basically it, humans are social by nature, since it's the best way for us to survive, and our brains rewards us for it.

[Anonymous No.4302162]

>>4302150

I'll give you my money. My life is mroe important than the money i have,

[Anonymous No.4302166]

>>4302122

of course it's subjective, but your original question was about why should i should let some 'desert people' think for me. my point is, i arrived at my faith myself, through a personal subjective experience.

>>4302128

it's wasn't the same.

[Anonymous No.4302172]

>>4302162

thanks for the cash kiddo, now take me to your parents house so i can kill you and your family and take all your stuff. if you don't wanna tell me, i'll just kill you and find your family on my own. sound good?

[Anonymous No.4302176]

>>4302146
>The definition of man as the rational animal created in God's image is at the foundation of western civilization.

it is, but if god isn't real then why does it matter? why should i adopt your definitions?

[Anonymous No.4302182]

>>4302166

Your bias is showing. I was teaching marxism in my class and i felt a light enrobing me. Marx himself must have been smiling on me.


Nah, people have faith because it's easier to believe that you have no power in the grand scheme of thing than to try and live by their own rules.

[Anonymous No.4302188]

>>4302147
>Or joy

i don't care about joy because i never would have been born so i wouldn't miss it. i do care about pain however, because whenever i experience it, it will be worse off for me than when i didn't exist.

[Anonymous No.4302195]

>>4302182
>Marx himself must have been smiling on me.

Lol. That's a not a possibility provided by the culture.

>>4302176

Because you are a human being.

[Anonymous No.4302192]

>>4302172

I refuse, try and kill me if you want and then i'd either try to flee or attack him.

What's the point of this ?

[Anonymous No.4302203]

>>4302195

Why ? i beleive that Marx is checking on me all the time,when i pray to him i feel warm ( different from running)
Can you disprove what i felt ?

[Anonymous No.4302226]

>>4302182
>I was teaching marxism in my class and i felt a light enrobing me. Marx himself must have been smiling on me.

that's unsurprising because i imagine you believe in his ideas. one might even say you worship him (if his ideas are the source of your perspective then why not?). why wouldn't you feel blessed for spreading the teachings of your master? marxism is just contemporary idolatry; a political religion telling people how to think.

>Nah, people have faith because it's easier to believe that you have no power in the grand scheme of thing than to try and live by their own rules.

we have the power to choose whether to believe or not and that is ultimately the defining question of our lives

[Anonymous No.4302234]

>>4302192

i'm attempting to illustrate that your belief system is essentially the law of the jungle where the strongest predators survive. life is like that in a lot of ways, but it seems like an ugly thing to believe in.

[Anonymous No.4302243]

>>4302195
>Because you are a human being.

this is meaningless. my definition of human being might be different than yours.

[Anonymous No.4302254]

>>4302234

But there is no belief at stake here. I believethat my familly is more important than my life, and that my money is less important than that. Nthing of your situation disprove anything about why i do think this, nor does it invalidate that for me doing good around myself is a choice you do.

[Anonymous No.4302260]

>>4302226

>that's unsurprising because i imagine you believe in his ideas. one might even say you worship him (if his ideas are the source of your perspective then why not?). why wouldn't you feel blessed for spreading the teachings of your master? marxism is just contemporary idolatry; a political religion telling people how to think.

It was onlyan argument to show that personnal bias show up everywhere, and that using 1st person subjective clues like feelings is not a good way to argue for any position. Since it is the only argument of msot religions, it makes their position weak.

[Anonymous No.4302278]

>>4302203

1. Because it's silly.
2. I don't care about disproving what you felt. Speaking scientifically what you describe is senseless. It's outside of the domain of proof and disproof.

>>4302243

Private language is impossible. Sense is necessarily public. My use of human being is rooted in its previous use in the western tradition.

[Anonymous No.4302340]

>>4302278
>Private language is impossible. Sense is necessarily public. My use of human being is rooted in its previous use in the western tradition.

lol language is subjective. is osama bin laden a hero? it depends on who you ask.

[Anonymous No.4302352]

>>4302254
>But there is no belief at stake here

yes there is: the belief of whether its wrong to steal and murder. if i want to steal from you and can get away with it why shouldn't i? from your perspective it seems like there is no reason not to.

[Anonymous No.4302370]

>>4302340

Language is super-subjective. Meaning occurs publicly. What is a hero? We have a general agreement about what that means because we have a shared cultural background.

Osama Bin Laden might be considered a hero to radical muslim because he fights for radical Islamic identity, but to us he is a terrorist because he struck against us. No one who considers his acts to be an affront against them and their considers him to be a hero. This is because a hero fights for what we consider good.

[Anonymous No.4302392]

>>4302370

ok, so why should if god is the basis of western identity if god isn't real?

[Anonymous No.4302435]

>>4302392

How Can Mirrors Be Real If Our Eyes Aren't Real?

[Anonymous No.4302781]

>>4302435

[Anonymous No.4305250]

nihilism means you negate all putatively meaningful values and beliefs

so no

[Anonymous No.4305268]

>>4301983
Oh, so we shouldn't worship God and his Word, we should worship ourselves and our own opinions. Tell me, have you built a Church dedicated to yourself? Do you have special holidays / festivals to celebrate certain aspects of yourself?

[Anonymous No.4305283]

>>4305250
forgot to say though, unless you are a deist and think there is evidence in Nature for god that you can vouch for being empirically verifiable

[Anonymous No.4305302]

>>4301887

[Anonymous No.4305874]

>>4301946
nah its cus of the big sleep dawg

[Anonymous No.4305891]

>>4305302
>that antisocial autism

IT'S HIM

IT'S REALLY HIM

[Anonymous No.4305901]

Explain to me, OP, why does atheism preclude optimism?

[Anonymous No.4306030]

>>4301974
>God created humanity to worship Him. By fulfilling our purpose we are rewarded with peace, joy and other spiritual gifts.

To me that seems like quite a hollow existence. Our only purpose is to fuel the ego of an already omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being? Does he really need anymore reassurance that he is the greatest thing in all of existence?

[Anonymous No.4306049]

>>4301887

>What is existentialism

[Anonymous No.4306138]

>>4301997

>Not reading about Piliavin.
>Being out of touch with the latest advances in Neuroscience

[Anonymous No.4306144]

>>4301925

Holy fuck that's funny

[Anonymous No.4306173]

>>4305268
Is the idea of not worshiping something really this alien to christfags? It's like if you don't worship Jeebus then you MUST worship something else.

[Anonymous No.4306192]

>>4306030
>Our only purpose is to fuel the ego of an already omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being?

you've misunderstood, God doesn't have an 'ego' and we cannot give Him anything because He's already perfect.

we don't 'know' god's purpose for creating us, but we believe that by worshiping Him we will be rewarded. yes this is selfish, humans are selfish creatures.

if you take the position that you don't care about the reward and would prefer to live your life however you want you are free to do so. however, when you die you will be held accountable for choosing to deny Him.

[Anonymous No.4306198]

>>4301887
What's so bad about being a nihilist?

[Anonymous No.4306201]

>>4305874
mah negro. all those knocked unconscious moments. better than the lip habit in breathless.

[Anonymous No.4306202]

>>4306198
All this Max Stirner shit is really starting to become funny for some reason

[Anonymous No.4306206]

>>4302435

This quote gets mocked so much but it's actually a totally legit question about the nature of qualia and pretty deep for a 15 year old to be thinking about. If human perception is in some way illusory, then what of such properties we ascribe to the material world as color, sound -- reflectivity? Those must also be false.

You could ask the question in any number of ways. How can music be real if our ears aren't real? How can hunger be real if our stomachs aren't real? Etc.

[Anonymous No.4306230]

>>4306192
>when you die you will be held accountable for choosing to deny Him.
I like to think that, if I live a life of good deeds and noble actions, then - if there truly is a god - I will be rewarded for that rather than dishonestly praising him for my own selfish ends. If god is just then he will recognise and reward my virtue, otherwise God is unjust and I don't particularly want to follow him

[Anonymous No.4306257]

>>4306230
>le fake stoic attitude

I hope you're not implying you're noble enough to disobey God because you find him unjust at the price of eternal torture.

[Anonymous No.4306272]

>>4301942
we don't need an objective morality. This is why you need to read more into nietzsche. His discussions on language are some of his most fascinating. Basically he came to grasp that the things that we hold to be external, such as morality, are only products of the individual. Insofar as we claim there is 'objective' morality and use words such as 'objective', it should be obvious that the meaning of those words would be different from person to person. In reality we would be better not to have an objective morality, because they are falsehoods. Take the morality of the catholic church for example. To make chastity a virtue is one of the worst things religion has ever done. To hate your desires and senses is to hate the fact that you are human. Nietzsche would take a different approach and say, yes chastity is good sometimes, because it can stop us from becoming degenerate and focussed on only one stimulus when there is an entire world to see and learn from.

To say that objective morality exists is to say that we understand the nature of all things in a purely linguistic sense. It's exceedingly arrogant and we don't need it.

[Anonymous No.4306281]

>>4306138
I found it funny he didn't reply to this. One of my favourite things is to see people criticise something in the form of a question. Then when that question is answered it is ignored, because really who can be bothered understanding?

[Anonymous No.4306561]

create your own meaning fatty

[Anonymous No.4307195]

>>4306272

what about people who enjoy hurting others or take advantage of them for personal gain? by your logic it seems that as long as one can get away with it, anything is permissible.