/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.4202968]

"Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus
and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls
of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting
of dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished
since that time when first there stood in division of conflict
Atreus’ son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus."

What did Homer mean by 'and the will of Zeus was accomplished' ? Did he want the Trojans to be destroyed? Is there a cryptic meaning?

[Anonymous No.4204569]

>>4202968
Zeus wanted Trojans to be destroyed, because it has been chosen by Moirae that Troia would be devastated.

[Anonymous No.4204581]

everything is "the will of zeus" in greek literature. there are no internal motivations. it's just doing the will of the gods. another reason why homer is shit.

[Anonymous No.4204608]

>>4204581
the "will of zeus" is equivalent to fate.
the will of zeus being accomplished is fate being accomplished

you're wrong about this making Greek literature shit though. The Greek's use of "the gods" as a metaphor for a person's conviction and motives is far more evocative imagery than motives coming from some nebulous "psychology" or "mind" or "reason" or "will".
In Homeric terms of I punch somebody in the face I may be "driven to sudden madness through the influence Ares whose arena is constant strife", in modern/psychological terms it wasn't from the inspiration of some god but by the excitement of my "nerves" that caused me to act. Poetically the Homeric version of events is far superior.

[Anonymous No.4204618]

>>4204608
to expand on this, there was a Christian writer of the 20th century who thought that this shift of motivations in literature going from the gods to "internal motivations" corresponded with shift from paganism to Christianity in Europe, with Europe emphasizing Free Will and the Soul. This is an entirely new way of conceiving a character - character's are no longer bound by fate as they are in Greek literature but are now totally free to make up their own destinies - to choose between Heaven or Hell. However, in modern times there has been a shift back into paganism. Just as the Greeks had no Free Will and believed everything was caused by the influence of the gods, the moderns are equally deterministic except that they attribute everything not the poets beautiful imagery of the "gods" but to the scientist's dull diagrams of nerve endings and chemical reactions. They are both ultimately the same thing, it's just that the Homeric determinism is more beautiful than the Modern determinism --- neither of them are the Christian Free Will.

[Anonymous No.4204619]

>>4204618
>Europe emphasizing Free Will

I mean Christianity.

[Anonymous No.4204650]

>>4204608
Well, it's not so simple, actually;
the will of Zeus is just his will; there are three sisters, the Moirae(Atropus, Lachesis and Cloto), who are the real Fate, the Fate with capital F. They are the ruler of the Universe, not Zeus.

[Anonymous No.4204656]

>>4204618

Causation is not determinism.

The only modernist Western thought system that is determinist is Calvinist style Christianity which denies free will.

[Anonymous No.4204665]

This is my interpretation:

Zeus is repaying the offense he caused to Achilles mother Thetis by marrying her to Peleus, and thus undoing his own (Zeus) downfall.

So the repayment for Thetis not having a a deathless son is giving Achilles the option to choose mortality, brief and happy, or immortality through the bards song.

In fact it had nothing with Troy to do, it was just about Thetis and Achilles. The war is just the means to get there.

Therefore the focus on achilles and him pondering about what to do, leave or continue the battle. In essence Zeus granted free-will to Achilles.

[Anonymous No.4204668]

>>4204650
I think you have that wrong, the Moirai holds the fate of life and death, but the gods are deathless and Zeus holds destiny.

[Anonymous No.4204679]

>>4204668
Even Zeus cannot escape from Fate's decisions.

From Italian Wiki:
"Il Fato è un termine di origine latina (fatum, ovvero ciò che è detto) che originariamente indicava la decisione irrevocabile di un dio. In seguito fu usato per designare il Destino, figlio del Caos e della Notte, al quale nessuno, nemmeno gli dei, possono sottrarsi e di cui persino Giove non è che un mero esecutore in quanto determinato da necessità.

Il dio Fato era immaginato cieco poiché interveniva a modificare il corso della vita degli uomini senza alcuna precisa ragione .

Più tardi fu identificato con le Parche, dalle quali appunto dipendeva il destino degli uomini."

“Fate” is a Latin word(“fatum” means “what has been said”), which originally meant the unmovable decision by a god. Later, it was used to name Destiny, son of Chaos and Night(Nyx),whom nobody, not even Gods, could escape and even Iuppiter is his servant, because determined by necessity.
Fate was thought to be blind because he changed men’s lives without no true reason. Later it was identified with Parcae(Moirae), who determined men’s destiny.

[Anonymous No.4205199]

>>4204665
I like this interpretation. I always found Thetis and Achilles' relationship to be among the most dramatic in literature.

[Anonymous No.4205202]

>>4204581
One of the most plebeian posts I've ever read on 4chan and that's saying a lot.

[Anonymous No.4205306]

>>4205199
Yeah, well if you take the Prometheus tragedy as part of the canon, and it makes even more sense.

[Anonymous No.4205771]

>>4204618
>character's are no longer bound by fate as they are in Greek literature but are now totally free to make up their own destinies
Are you sure about that? In the Iliad several characters are implied to have the opportunity to change their own fate or the fates of those around them (Diomedes comes to mind, when he almost brings about the premature fall of Troy and the Gods mention that he'll be defying fate if they can't stop him in time). I'm not sure if free will as we know it existed in that time for literature, but there was certainly some degree of "wiggle-room" and it doesn't seem as deterministic as you claim.

[Anonymous No.4205783]

>>4205771
As a further example, there's the relationship between Aphrodite and Helen. Aphrodite "inspires" Helen to go with Paris as his trophy (or makes her go crazy, whatever) and love him, but later on she regrets her decision and when Aphrodite comes with Paris (after saving him on the battlefield) she encourages Helen to sleep with him again, but Helen rebukes her and denies him until Aphrodite threatens her pretty badly. Then there's Achilles' choice between going home and enjoying a long life or dying at Troy, which is emphasized over and over again in the Iliad to be his choice, and at some points he seriously considers leaving the battle.

[Anonymous No.4205856]

>this thread is now about first verses of Illiad on your mothertongue; no cp

Srdžbu mi boginjo pjevaj Ahileja, Peleja sinu
Pogubnu, kojano zada Ahejcima tisuće jada.
Snažne je duše mnogih junaka ona k Aidu
Poslala, a njih je same učinila plijen da budu Psima i pticama gozba. A Zeusu se vršaše volja
Otkad se bjehu onomad razdvojili poslije svađe
Pelej dični, junacima kralj, i divni Ahilej

now thread is pleb no more

[Anonymous No.4206639]

>>4205783
You are in fact right, but I think also that we might overplay the part of humans entirely.

The Iliad is largely a battle, or childrens game, between gods. They use humans as they see fit, as pawns in larger chess game.

Helens rebuke might as well have been "the will of Zeus". There are several times in the book where "the will of zeus" interferes with humans as well as gods. As you said, there is wiggle room in the story but when in threatens the entire story arc (the outcome) something, someone steps in the arena in the name of Zeus.

[Anonymous No.4207016]

>>4205856
Greek metric version is way better, I can tell you.

[Anonymous No.4207050]

It's a formula. It's like starting a Viking bardic recitation with

>Tell me how
>swords are great
>and all the following
>was ordained by Odin and fate

It means "I'm starting now".