/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.4193318]

What does /lit/ think of visual novels? I think the medium has a lot of potential, already the best VNs manage to be a lot more than regular text on paper books have ever been, and this is still a medium very much in its infancy. It is exciting to think of how much further they will go in the future, when traditional books may very well become obsolete besides as a niche hobby for a few.

[Anonymous No.4193325]

0/10

[Anonymous No.4193332]

>>4193325
What? Have you even read any good VNs? And not translations, but in the original language. The medium clearly allows for a much richer experience than plain text ever could, while maintaining much of the same literary depth we've come to expect.

[Anonymous No.4193335]

i thought Saya no Uta was really cool

[Anonymous No.4193346]

I agree, OP. Something about VNs manages to always hit me right in the feels a way books never will.

[Anonymous No.4193374]

>>4193346
This. Visual novels have a quaint charm on them.

[Anonymous No.4193383]

>>4193346
I also agree, but I don't think that they will completely replace books.

[Anonymous No.4193385]

>>4193383
Of course, nothing can/will replace actual books.

[Anonymous No.4193391]

>>4193385
Kindle and iPad?

[Anonymous No.4193409]

>>4193385
My kindle paper white is superior on any way.

[Anonymous No.4193432]

The visual novels of today are, for the most part and technically, about as advanced as they ever will be or will ever need to be. And there's tons of great ones already, so, I dunno where the fuck you get off saying that the medium is still in its infancy. Anyway, they're definitely not going to replace books any more than manga will replace books. Actually, I would say that visual novels share more similarities with manga than they do with actual books, so if they're going to replace anything it would be manga, but you and I know that that's an absurd statement.

[Anonymous No.4193437]

>>4193391
>>4193409
I think he was referring to books as any kind of plain written text, rather than the specific medium of ink on paper.

[Anonymous No.4193442]

>>4193432
I didn't really mean on a technical level, but more like the writers still need to learn how to make the most of the medium. They still are somewhat hampered by the conventions of making books or games or manga or whatnot, rather than creating new ones that make the most of what this medium can offer. As an analogy consider movies made during the first few decades they were around, there was some okay stuff made but people really didn't know what to do with them and they didn't really reach their potential for a while.

[Anonymous No.4193482]

>>4193432
> there's tons of great ones already
> I dunno where the fuck you get off saying that the medium is still in its infancy

These are interdependent ideas. Having good examples of a medium doesn't mean that the medium is old or new.

I'd side with the anon you were talking to. The medium is certainly nowhere near the peak of what it could be.

[Anonymous No.4193489]

>>4193442
The difference with movies is is that the first film-makers didn't have the technology to make films as we do today. The technology just wasn't there. With visual novels, we already have the technology, and the other thing about visual novels is that the medium of visual novels is not radically different from other previous mediums. You say that writers are hampered by convention, and I look at some of my favorites, and I really don't see that.

[Anonymous No.4193498]

I love novels. They're always kinda interesting and cool.

[Anonymous No.4193506]

>>4193482
Yeah, but when you say that the medium is in its infancy you're basically saying that the stuff that already exists is primitive. And I don't really agree with that. I look at it, and I think "This is as good as it gets." Not everything can be improved. There has to be room for improvement, and again, I don't see where there's room for that. I look at it, and I think "This is as good as it gets."

[Anonymous No.4193512]

>>4193506

Your expectations must be rather low to think the medium can't be improved at all, especially from a narrative standpoint.

[Anonymous No.4193647]

>>4193506
Then why is every one about making you feel in such hamfisted and manipulative ways.
If it was as good as you claim it is, it would be used to portray inner human desires that wouldn't be depicted accurately in any other media, more than the sugar-coated manipulative shit-tier bullshit most of them are.

[Anonymous No.4193654]

>>4193512
No, I think I just have different tastes. Like, they're never going to make a visual novel with prose like the kind in Gravity's Rainbow. It's too deep and complicated; it would rebel against every restriction that makes a visual novel a visual novel. They can't have that kind of complicated prose and have it be broken up because you can only display a couple of lines onscreen at once. They can't let that kind of prose speak for itself and still have images and sound to set the mood. They can't have a totally airtight plot and still let the characters make decisions. Visual novels tend to be simple and character oriented, because that's what the medium is good at, and in that respect, the best visual novels are excellent, and I enjoy it.

[Anonymous No.4193677]

>>4193647
They aren't ALL like that. Are you familiar with Sturgeon's Law? Well, I believe that it applies to visual novels just as much as it applies to movies, books, tv shows, etc. And uh, I am not of the opinion that any medium has a special ability to portray unique human desires, but I talked about what visual novels do well in post 4193654.

[Anonymous No.4193689]

>>4193677
Character based stories built around mary sues are not great stories.
A girl having a pet peeve is not a flaw.
You really don't know about what you're talking about, VN's are the shit-tier of written fiction, since they are nothing more than power fantasies, and making characters simple enough you outwit them in a multiple choice menu and make them love you with three right decisions.
You really need some reading, son.

[Anonymous No.4193701]

>>4193689
>Making sweeping generalizations as legitamate points.

Oh, so you've played every fucking VN there is?

[Anonymous No.4193709]

>>4193701
Tell me one visual novel whose result after your decisions was the contrary as intended.
Tell me one visual novel where you actually feel that you're deciding something within the story and not choosing a path to fulfill your fantasies.
Tell me one visual novel that defied your expectations yet made you like it.
Tell me one visual novel that made you feel anything without relying on women
Tell me one visual novel that ends up anywhere different that you fulfilling your fantasies.

[Anonymous No.4193719]

>>4193689
The presence of Mary Sue type characters and power fantasies does not necessarily make a story bad or stupid, or keep it from being great. So long as everything makes sense within its own universe, there is no problem.

[Anonymous No.4193727]

>>4193719
If all of the characters are mary sues and there is no bulk to the story other than a in-your-face power fantasy you just watch unveil by choosing three options we can tell it's not a really good story.
Making sense within an universe of mary sues and power fantasies is merely pandering, since there's nothing requiring from those situations

[Anonymous No.4193802]

>>4193727
Do you think that all the characters should be unlikable incompetent shitwads? And just because the character is a likeable person doesn't mean that they're a Mary Sue. And, are you familiar with School Days? How about Yume Miru Kusuri? Antoinette is an asshole. And the bitch from School Days is a murdering jealous psycho. And what do the words "power fantasy" really mean to you anyway? Because two characters falling in love with each other because of some character traits that make them compatible isn't really a power fantasy; it can be a sexual fantasy in certain cases, or it can be a different kind of fantasy, but it's not really a power fantasy.

[Anonymous No.4193841]

>Not mentioning Sharin no Kuhi
It was a masterpiece on nearly every level. And it had its funny moments too.

That said, I think VNs may suffer from some dilution of concept/execution since it requires a team of people and more effort than writing a book, and there's a lot you can do with pure text that simply can't be communicated effectively using images (stream of consciousness, for example),and the presence of a "main character" rather than omniscient narrator also limits the perspective to just one character at a time. This was played with in Ever17, but honestly that had a too many problems to be truly excellent.

[Anonymous No.4193844]

>>4193318
>imagine Moby Dick in comic book form

Riveting.

[Anonymous No.4193845]

>>4193802
>if not a flawless mary sue then an unlikable incompetent shitwad
The fact that you think there's only those two sides to characterization shows how much you know about good fiction.
I asked you several things about a visual novel having realistic results and going different than expected, if a guy who can choose between several girls and pick them up at the drop of a hat by saying three things is not a power fantasy I fail to see what is.
Yet you still say that VN's are redeemable since some characters fall into a different archetype which proves nothing.
I wait to see a VN with an unexpected, realistic ending, in which you are unmasked as the manipulative bastard you are the better you do things, with scripted sequences of problems with girls if the interests overlap, and both of them dropping you if you don't decide quick enough and let too many events unfold without making a stand.
That'd be something I'd like to play, an anticlimactic VN that shits all over your attempts at oversimplifying women and relationships as it'd happen in real life.
Only then I'd say VNs are not shit-tier fiction to make manchildren feel.

[Anonymous No.4193986]

>>4193709
You still haven't told me why you think generalizing an entire medium is a valid point to an argument past autismal shit flinging as is the standard for the typical brainless retard that roams 4chan everyday.

>xDDD NOT PATRICIAN ENUFF LOL!

[Anonymous No.4193987]

>>4193986
>this deflection.
The burden of proof is on you, claiming Visual Novels should leave their status as trite shallow entertainment for neckbeards, as it is common knowledge.

[Anonymous No.4193992]

>>4193987
You're the one being a pretentious shit over fucking books and video games.

I don't have to do anything man. I'm taking the piss out of you because I fucking hate this way of thinking.

[Anonymous No.4193996]

>>4193992
You're the one who doesn't understand his place and thinks shallow entertainment is up there with the greatest works of human mind.
Now come and tell me ambiguous storytelling (the best device you can ever hope to have in videogames) is good enough to make some corporate hobby as are videogames art.

[Anonymous No.4194010]

>>4193489
It wasn't just a matter of technology, though. They were also held back by feeling bound by older conventions, such as stage acting for example. Film grew a lot as a medium when they got beyond this and started to focus on things only film could do, rather than trying to emulate another medium.

[Anonymous No.4194032]

>>4193318
>traditional books may very well become obsolete besides as a niche hobby for a few.

>tfw we are going to become even more patrician

[Anonymous No.4194041]

The OP here is a habitual spammer and shitposter in /vn/ on vg. Just ignore him or report.

[Anonymous No.4194043]

>>4193996
>the best device you can ever hope to have in videogames
>corporate hobby as are videogames

DAMN!

[Anonymous No.4194073]

It's pretty much my favorite medium.
The best of the best among them make me feel like I'm watching some grand opera while reading the written version at the same time.

[Anonymous No.4194099]

>>4193845
>The fact that you think there's only those two sides to characterization shows how much you know about good fiction.
And the fact that you thought that that was what I said shows how good your reading comprehension skills are.
>I asked you several things
You were replying to someone else when you asked those questions. I didn't really read your questions, but now that I have read them I see how absurd they are. I intend on addressing them in another post.
>if a guy who can choose between several girls and pick them up at the drop of a hat by saying three things is not a power fantasy I fail to see what is.
Indeed you do not. A power fantasy would be like, I am pretending that I am king of the world and I can have sex with any woman I want. A power fantasy would be pretending that I am Goku and everyone that pisses me off I spirit bomb the fuck out of them. A power fantasy would be pretending that I am a fucking vampire who fucking kills people I don't like, or when my boss at work says to clean the toilets I say "fuck you". Fantasizing that girls like you might be an egotistical fantasy, but it's not a power fantasy. I recommend that you check out the TVTropes article on power fantasies. Or you know, just think about it -- being awesome and being powerful are not the same thing.
>you still say that VN's are redeemable since some characters fall into a different archetype which proves nothing.
You said that all of the characters in visual novels were Mary Sue type characters. I provided evidence to the contrary. Now you are saying "BUT DAT DON' PROVE NOTHIN". Actually, it does prove something. It proves that you are full of shit.
>in which you are unmasked as the manipulative bastard
What the fuck are you talking about? Now you're saying that all vn mc's are manipulative scumbags? You're an asshole to think that kindness and conversation are evil things, and those people who engage in these actions are manipulative.
>That'd be something I'd like to play, an anticlimactic VN that shits all over your attempts at oversimplifying women and relationships as it'd happen in real life.
You are the one who oversimplifies. All visual novels are the same? Visual novels are for men only? All characters are Mary Sues? You choose a girl and then five minutes later you're having sex with them?

[Anonymous No.4194135]

>>4193709
>Tell me one visual novel whose result after your decisions was the contrary as intended.
Must there always be intent behind one's actions? In the real world, don't things typically go as planned? And, actually, there are tons of visual novels where you can accidentally get the bad ending -- everyone who plays visual novels has done this. So, to answer your question, almost any VN will suffice. Katawa Shoujo comes to mind as one example.
>Tell me one visual novel where you actually feel that you're deciding something within the story and not choosing a path to fulfill your fantasies.
How is choosing a path to fulfill your fantasies not deciding something in the story? I suppose Kara no Shoujo is an example.
>Tell me one visual novel that defied your expectations yet made you like it.
I generally don't have much in the way of expectations when I experience art, but I can think of surprising elements in many VN's that I have played. I suppose that I expected Katawa Shoujo to be more sexual it was, and I did not expect it to be as good as it was.
>Tell me one visual novel that made you feel anything without relying on women
Do you hate women or something? Anyway, my answer is Kara no Shoujo, a game where you play as a detective.
>Tell me one visual novel that ends up anywhere different that you fulfilling your fantasies.
It doesn't really matter where it ends up so long as the journey is meaningful, but Planetarian is my answer.

[Anonymous No.4194144]

>>4194010
I agree, but film was a more unique medium at the time than visual novels are today. A visual novel is actually pretty much a collage. We are a more advanced people nowadays, anyway.

[Anonymous No.4194174]

If you avoid the ones without any pornographic nature, then you can find some passable things. Found at least half a dozen I enjoyed thoroughly.

[Anonymous No.4194283]

>>4193654
I would think that it would work if the VN were structured in a House of Leaves-esque manner. I mean comic books are a genre that have innovated greatly despite being limited to text bubbles and panels. Look at Chris Ware's Acme Novelty Library for an example of a comic with an amazing amount of prose (please don't use complicated or deep, it implies your anti-intellectualism) and still meticulously structured enough to work as a comic book.

[Anonymous No.4194314]

>>4193844

>What will you do?
1. Set sail in search of the white whale
2. Stay another night in port and attempt to woo Bertha the busty barmaid

[Anonymous No.4194340]

>>4194314
Are there seriously people in /lit/ who read this garbage?

Whenever there's a Stirner or Nietzsche or Marx thread, am I looking at posts written by people who think self-insert anime games are serious literature?

[Anonymous No.4194345]

>>4194340
It's a regular /vng/ shitposter, report and ignore

[Anonymous No.4194369]

>>4193996

All hobbies are corporate hobbies. Where do you think the money you paid for your Kindle went? How do you think anyone gets published these days?

[Anonymous No.4194377]

>>4194369
>corporations determine what survives the passing of time.
Sure thing bud, unlike your toys we've been at this for more than 300 years.

[Anonymous No.4194387]

>>4193845
>I asked you several things about a visual novel having realistic results and going different than expected, if a guy who can choose between several girls and pick them up at the drop of a hat by saying three things is not a power fantasy I fail to see what is.

I'll go ahead and play devil's advocate here: how is it any different from a regular novel about two people who fall in love? The presence of some minimum amount of reader agency over where the story goes doesn't change the nature of the romance, necessarily. Whether it plays to juvenile wish-fulfillment or not still lays on where the author decides to take the story.

It's certainly conceivable at least that a mature, well-formed romance story could be told in the format of VN-- why not? Not all VN are about romance anyway.

[Anonymous No.4194435]

>>4194340
That's a... genetic fallacy or something? I'm tired. Why are you so angry?

[Anonymous No.4194446]

the medium is the message

[Anonymous No.4194529]

>>4194387
It's not as if regular novels don't also tend to shoehorn in romance elements when the story could have done just as well without it. Really the only thing different in a VN is that the choice of girl is often used as an easy vehicle for plot divergence, but the story can still be much more important than the girl is.

[Anonymous No.4194541]

>>4194377
>corporations determine what survives the passing of time.

They absolutely do, and have since at least the turn of the 20th century. Before that, it was the dictates of feudal lords and/or monarchs.

Do you think William Shakespeare happened to have the most potential for greatness as a playwright out of every single human being in Elizabethan England? Absolutely not. But he had the privilege of an education and the luck to be accepted as a playwright for the Globe theatre. So he's who we remember.

And do you think Dickens ever got published because the publisher believed passionately in his themes of working class struggle in industrial Britain? How about Melville, Nabokov, Pynchon? And on down the line. They got published because a publishing house believed they could turn a profit on the sale of their work. Even the most high-brow literary magazine is ultimately a business and the bottom line is ALWAYS what will sell.

Who knows what unimaginably vast stores of great writing we have never seen and never will see, just because no one thought it would sell.

I don't even like video games. But I don't fool myself into thinking that literature is some noble pursuit above the cold and bloodless logic of capitalism. Grow the fuck up.

[Anonymous No.4194588]

help /lit/ which should I choose?

[Anonymous No.4194943]

>>4194588
Some of these decisions, man.

[Anonymous No.4194946]

>>4194943

[Anonymous No.4194957]

Visual novels and animu are among the biggest threats facing Western society today.
If it's left unchecked we'll soon have a society full of sniveling neckbeard sissies and the muslims will walk all over us.

[Anonymous No.4194975]

>>4193506
I think VNs can improve a lot. Animated/moving sprites would be one big advance, although it exists to a small extent at the moment. More importantly, though, is that as art gets cheaper then there will be more room for creativity.
>>4193654
>you can only display a couple of lines onscreen at once.
Only in ADV format. NVL style ones can have full paragraphs on screen at once.

[Anonymous No.4195264]

>>4194529
Nothin wrong wit dat. Easy, maybe, but nothin wrong wit dat.
>>4194975
The presence of animation can be more distracting than anything, but looking a still image you're free to imagine the movement. Animation has its place, but I think that still images tend to be more effective and versatile and good for general use, which is one reason why most visual novels do it like that, and why they probably should. There actually are video games like Super Adventure Rockman that are like visual novels in that you get to make decisions every so often, but instead of reading a bunch of text, you get a cartoon. Such games, however, are closer in my opinion to anime than they are to visual novels.
>as art gets cheaper then there will be more room for creativity
It's not like it's expensive to draw a fuckin picture, man.

[Anonymous No.4195312]

This thread is really fucking confusing.
In Australia visual novel just means a long form comic book like Watchmen or MAUS.

[Anonymous No.4195315]

>>4195312
Those are called "graphic novels" here in America.

[Anonymous No.4195336]

>>4195312
A visual novel is basically a poorly written choose your own adventure novel in video game form with lots of animu waifus showing their pantsu

[Anonymous No.4195504]

>>4194975
>Animated/moving sprites

Already exist, just nothing good ever gets translated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Csp_FoDRTY&list=PL7E92834D146EF14B&index=15

[Anonymous No.4195863]

>>4195336
>poorly written
What, you only read a few shitty translations of nukige from MangaGamer? It's like calling every book poorly written because you read some shitty fanfic passed through google translate. Fuck off.

[Anonymous No.4195868]

>>4195504
Damn, that looks hella unsettling for some reason.

[Anonymous No.4195887]

>>4195863
say that to my face not online fucker and see what happens

[Anonymous No.4196131]

I think DEARDROPS is at least as well written as anything you see discussed around here.

[Anonymous No.4196445]

>>4195868
cause it's 2D characters moving on a 3D plane

so yeah VN animation isn't perfect yet but at least it exists

[Anonymous No.4197669]

The medium has potential if it blew up outside of Japan, as Japan will pump out a few works above the norm that are truly exceptional but I think only the West could improve upon them as decent literary works. As a pure form of entertainment visual novels are fucking awesome, but they don't touch books on an intellectual level.

[Anonymous No.4197689]

Good yea but don't go too far m8. The political analysis is nowhere near standard dystopia-core lit like 1984 and Brave New World. The psychological analysis is not as rigorously awesome as Dostoyevsky.

The finale and Sachi's arc was amazing though, also Touka is mai waifu.

[Anonymous No.4197692]

>>4197689

This was for
>>4193841

[Anonymous No.4197706]

>>4194135
>Kara no Shoujo
>not relying on women
>Toko's true end

It gave me the amazing feelz but to say that its not reliant on women is complete bullshit.

Also Katawa Shoujo is crap. The ending to Lily's arc is so blatantly a ripoff of the ending to Crying out Love in the Center of the World. Also Hanako's route was just a standard 'broken girl' plot. The only good things about the VN is manly picnic and WAHAHAHA

[Anonymous No.4197710]

this is massive samefagging
i couldn't even get through a third of this bullshit
what are you even trying to do here?

[Anonymous No.4197711]

>>4197706
It wasn't particularly good but it's pretty much the only OELVN worth reading. It's actually average if you compare it to the average VN that comes out of Japan, but that doesn't make it good.

[Anonymous No.4197722]

It's been mentioned already, but Saya no Uta was a great little Lovecraftian horror title. I liked how the sex scenes weren't so much sexy as they were horrifying. Unless you're /d/, anyway. I've played a few others, including the (constantly genre-subverting) Katawa Shoujo, and Danganronpa. Danganronpa was pretty nice, very pulpy mystery stuff with just the right amount of anime cheese. And Ace Attorney. Oh, yes. Ace Attorney.

[Anonymous No.4197727]

I knew this was going to be a shit thread but I read it anyway.
As someone planning on making a few VNs I'm definitely a fan of them and they have serious potential (especially since they can mix in game elements pretty well), they aren't a replacement for any other type of media
The OELVN scene is horrible atm though and it's most time consuming to make a good one on your own,

[Anonymous No.4197728]

>>4197722
pls read more real lit and fuck off with your moegirl waifu games. all the shit you just mentioned isn't even at the level of the shit taste of the shittiest /lit/fag on this board. if you want moegirl waifu games to ever redeem themselves tell Japan to stop pandering to basement dwelling virgin otaku bastards.

[Anonymous No.4197961]

>>4197706
Even most people that enjoy VNs agree KS was crap, so I don't think it's really a good title to use to judge the medium.

[Anonymous No.4198013]

Ignoring that the visual novel "industry" is on the whole predicated on trashy pandering, there are two things which I feel VNs lack that completely prevent them from becoming a legitimate vehicle for artistic/literary expression: formal criticism and subversion/progression within the medium.

Where are the Joyces and Shaws and Faulkners of VNs? Where are the seminal works? What relevant commentary, stylistic statements, or philosophy can be extracted from a "reading"? (beyond "EVERYONE WHO BUYS INTO THIS SHIT IS PRETTY FUCKED UP")

I like visual novels, by the way. I like to take them seriously, too (because I am a sucker for vulgar emotional thrills and cheap drama)--but often I can't justify it. It's nice to talk about this sort of thing, though.

[Anonymous No.4198021]

they're a guilty pleasure for when i want to masturbate and also have 3 hours to kill

[Anonymous No.4198126]

Cant be helped to read the whole thread.

Thought I should mention the games Dear Esther, Rain, Beyond Two Souls, and Gone Home.

Pretty controversial on /v/ because they dont consider them "games", sad none of them have read Wittgenstein.

Dear Esther
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7VJ4lP-05A
Rain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvgadIxmPqk
Gone Home
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5KJzLsyfBI

[Anonymous No.4198137]

>>4193318
Maybe some people have pointed this out already, but there is an advantage to having a communication device of a stable technology. Technology these days is in constant flux. The VN of today is the nostalgia freakshow of tomorrow (and it's already based on this kind of nostagia).

[Anonymous No.4198141]

>>4198126
No more interactive cinematic experiences, please.
Anyone with a decent grasp on storytelling knows the fact that a medium that allows for interaction and simulation is wasting its time trying to convey a singular narrative.
So back off with that shit, sorry.

[Anonymous No.4198158]

>>4193318
>What does /lit/ think of visual novels?
Babby's video game for retards who can't handle interactive fiction.

[Anonymous No.4198195]

>Visual Novels
>Potential

Enjoy your terribly written romance novels for manchildren, turbonerd.

[Anonymous No.4198437]

>>4197706
I didn't say that none of it relied on women, you penis. It has female characters; of course some of it will rely on women. I meant that some of it was not reliant on women.

And yes I do know that it is fashionable for some people to hate on Katawa Shoujo. But why?

[Anonymous No.4198455]

>>4198013
I think that you have a pretty western way of judging stories, and that's not necessarily wrong, but realize that other cultures may have different standards.

[Anonymous No.4198461]

What if we just wrote our own VN and confined it to what we judge to be acceptable?

[Anonymous No.4198696]

>>4198461
do it, faggot

[Anonymous No.4200072]

>>4193841
I'm actually reading it.

It's pretty good though I don't see what's great about it.

[Anonymous No.4200077]

>>4197706
The only good route is Rin's route.

[Anonymous No.4200113]

>>4200077
Visual novels are shit, all of them. Each and every single one. You have /jp/ and /vng/ for that bullshit discussion over your mary sues and stale tropes, so I don't understand why would you pollute this board trying to prove your shit reading taste is somewhat decent.

[Anonymous No.4200124]

>>4200113
>You can only talk about things I like here
Fuck off. Regardless of what you may or may not think they are undeniably a form of literary expression, and thus perfectly welcome here.

[Anonymous No.4200127]

The only VN that felt like a novel worth reading was Umineko.

[Anonymous No.4200134]

>>4200127
But Higurashi was better in pretty much every way. Umineko started strong but was kind of a mess by the end.

[Anonymous No.4200145]

>>4200134
I agree but the writing of Higurashi was not as strong as Umineko.
In my view, the character interaction and family dynamic in Umineko was much better than the ones in Higurashi when it mostly involved the gang having fun in their classroom or a single character doing something and sometimes interacting with one or two at a time.

The overall atmosphere and narrative of Higurashi puts Umineko to shame since it builds up the tense atmosphere of demons controlling everything and killing people once per year and then completely destroying it and subverting the whole thing in Rena's arc by putting it in contrast with the first arc and then showing the actual events with Rika and explaining the backstory of the main antagonist which gave the choice of feeling pity which letting the reader despise her for her stupidity.

Umineko has more shocking moments but it forcefully twisted itself, starting with full mystery and ending with full magic, and left the reader to figure it out on his own which alienated the fanbase who didn't want to figure it out when they couldn't accept a stupid red herring of a solution.

Umineko and Higurashi are both good pieces of work that I enjoyed and were well conceptualized.

[Anonymous No.4200158]

>>4197706

hey, rin's route is pretty good. the rest are shit though.

[Anonymous No.4200166]

>>4200124
>A videogame
>form of literary expression
There are strongly set boundaries for filth like you that think they can go around 4chan discussing their shit taste.
There are handsome men on visual novels too, why don't you go to /hm/ too?

[Anonymous No.4200170]

>>4198126
Video games shouldn't focus on their narrative, they should focus on their strengths, being the interactivity and the gameplay.

I mean, look at Gone Home, the story is basically the equivalent to the trashiest of YA novels, but got widespread critical acclaim

[Anonymous No.4200173]

>>4200170
Gone Home got widespread critical acclaim since the plot was about LGBT subjects and...
Ahhh fuck it
>TL;DR: Gone home got 10 because SRS and Polygon and SJWs all know each other and scratch their backs.
The game is shit by all means

[Anonymous No.4200205]

>>4200127
Umineko has some pretty retarded writing, the writer can't keep himself from repeating the same things 5 times before moving on, the whole thing is a mess

[Anonymous No.4200220]

>>4198461

The annals of 4chan are a graveyard of dead VN projects. Good luck faggot, better people than you have tried and failed. KS was a total aberration.

[Anonymous No.4200242]

>>4200205
Well that's the author's writing style. He likes to overly make it simplistic while making his scenario complicated. It worked with Higurashi since it changed the tone pretty frequently but Umineko was a bit too simplistic in its writing.

The whole story was still worth reading.

[Anonymous No.4200249]

Though my knowledge of the medium is quite limited, the feeling I get is that it's too niche and Otaku centered at the moment for it to reach its full potential.
Think about it, this is the perfect platform to experiment with and explore on Kindle like devices, yet it's mostly limited to more game like puzzle-em-ups and adolescent anime power fantasies/erotica.
Not that there's anything wrong with those but I crave more variation and literary merit, the kind that Interactive Fiction almost achieved back in the day.

[Anonymous No.4200270]

>>4200242
The scenario isn't complicated, it's just a mess. And it's not a style, it's just bad writing.
Anyone with half a brain would be bored as fuck by the fucking awful script of these series.
And the story turns into something that is hilariously retarded which is kind of fun when the writer start going "look at how awesome my story is" ad nauseam.

Honestly it's kind of retarded seeing any R07 brought as some kind of /lit/ content, his writing is basically the equivalent of a trashy fanfiction, and basically gets the same audience as well.

[Anonymous No.4200272]

>>4200249

What you have to realize is that visual novels are a primarily visual medium, not a literary medium. The prose is totally ancillary to the art.

Talking about the literary merit of VN is like talking about the musical merit of film. Are there great film scores? Yes. Can a great score help make a film more memorable? Absolutely. But we don't judge movies primarily because of their soundtrack.

[Anonymous No.4200282]

>>4200249
Hard finding any litterary values when most VNs are translated by high schoolers and NEET

[Anonymous No.4200284]

>>4200272
Agreed for the most part, though some VN's focus more on the story than the visuals the later plays a large role, as does interactivity in some cases. Yet it is tied to the literary form, just as graphic novels/comics and choose your own adventure books are.

[Anonymous No.4200289]

>>4200282
Too be fair, much of them seem to be drawn and written by those types as well, but that doesn't dismiss it as a viable and exciting medium for artistic expression and experimentation.

[Anonymous No.4200290]

little busters was a masterpiece fuck anyone who says otherwise

[Anonymous No.4200292]

>>4200270
A mess is the same thing as being complicated if you don't see the overall idea behind it.

No one praises his prose, since it is pretty simplistic and crude, but it's his stories and characters which are interesting.

Umineko is more misunderstood because the overall message is ''it's better to just let go than keep dwelling on things you'll never find out'' and when the main antagonist is actually the readers themselves. Especially when people interpreted that message as the author being cocky and telling his readers to fuck off, which wasn't the case.

[Anonymous No.4200299]

>>4200290
>marmalade

I never knew Little Busters was such a gripping parable about man's inhumanity to man.

[Anonymous No.4200304]

>>4200299
it's not it's more about friendship and stuff but yeah

[Anonymous No.4200305]

>>4200290
I finished reading Refrain a couple days ago and it did make me cry, that fucking baseball part really got me and I related too much with Kengo, but Little Busters is not really a masterpiece.

A lot of the routes were not that interesting with the exception of maybe Mio.

Komari's route was a bit too convenient and not that great and was resolved too easily.
Haruka was interesting with its twist but the issue itself was overly complicated.
Kud was stupid and everyone agrees on it.
Kurugaya was too cool for her own good and the story ended as a foreshadowing for Refrain more than anything conclusive.
And Mio was a nice route.

Refrain is probably the only reason to read Little Busters.

[Anonymous No.4200313]

>>4200305
>Refrain is probably the only reason to read Little Busters.

You're forgetting how great the common route itself was though.

[Anonymous No.4200316]

>>4200292
Again there is nothing complicated about Umineko.
The "message" is hammered again and again and again without rest.
The "great mystery" that R07 masturbates on countless time only function thank to one of the laziest, crappiest plot device I've seen among this genre as well, same for the characters where you have to go through dozen of hours of boring scenes to get just a little bit of characterization.

You think I didn't understand Umineko? I was calling out Shkanontrice back when episode 4 was released yet 99% of the people in threads didn't believe me telling me I had no love and shit

Seriously Umineko is one of these stories that attract the lowest common denominator since it's a very simple enough to get yet "seemingly" complex story.

[Anonymous No.4200319]

One other criticism I'd like to throw at the medium is that it's sensationalist to a fault.
It often goes for cheep tears or gory disgust instead of trying to force truths upon the user.
And that's ok in small doses, but I want more.

[Anonymous No.4200320]

>>4200313
Oh yeah, I forgot the common route, that was a fun read. I enjoyed all of it.

[Anonymous No.4200328]

>>4200316
>shlannontrice

Oh you goat.
Next you'll say Yasu did the crime.

[Anonymous No.4200329]

>>4200320
By the way did you go back and get Kurugaya's good ending after finishing Refrain? It's locked until you do that.

[Anonymous No.4200333]

>>4200328
If you believe that this was just another red herring then that just makes R07 even more of a hack.

[Anonymous No.4200336]

>>4200329
I didn't know that. Alright, I'll go check it out.

[Anonymous No.4200338]

>>4200328
Oh you are one of those, even among Umineko fags you are the lowliest of the low.
Sorry but I'll stop here, no way I'll argue with one of you

[Anonymous No.4200348]

>>4200333
>red herrings are bad because I was tricked

You're allowed to think whatever you want.
If I see it as another red herring with another murderer behind it and the whole thing as a red herring, I'll call it a masterpiece for tricking so many people who stopped thinking and just went with the interview as the answer people were looking for rather than make their own answers.

[Anonymous No.4200351]

>>4200348
That's not what I said at all. But if you spend the entire work hammering one interpretation down the audience's throat, never actually bother to tell them outright that it was wrong or what the proper interpretation was, and then sit there laughing at them for believing your lies, then yeah, you're a hack.

[Anonymous No.4200355]

Also "looking for your own answers" is pointless when nothing in the original work can be used to confirm the answer beyond any doubt. Hell, R07 said this himself in one of the author's corner sections of Higurashi.

[Anonymous No.4200354]

>>4200348
Seriously do you even read what you post?
R07 already confirmed everything.
This goes beyond some retarded death of the author bullshit, you fucks are some serious mental cases.

[Anonymous No.4200381]

>>4200354
>R07 already confirmed everything.

Not really. You're not suppose to listen to the author for an answer. Ryukishi says so himself.

>In other words, what I want to say is that, whatever is the answer, even the truth (oracle) according to the writer (god)!, they are not absolute.
The truth can be altered many times over by the hands of a META being of a higher stratum than even the supreme god of the story, the writer, this meta-being being the writer himself in the future.
In other words, it's an extremely rough argument but, as long as we talk about 'last part queen problem', we'll collapse into the dilemma of the mystery being an impossible puzzle.

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/TIPS/Anti-Mystery_vs._Anti-Fantasy


>>4200355
>what applies for one thing applies for another and if it doesn't, it makes the author a hypocrite
He said time and time again he wouldn't give an answer episodes before the last one came out. He wanted to make a story where people could continuously discuss without spoiling anything since there would not be a true answer.

Say, for example, someone is reading Higurashi and another person just says Takano is the culprit, it ruins the experience but if someone says Yasu is the culprit, it's the same as saying a witch did it since it doesn't name anyone in the cast.

[Anonymous No.4200390]

>>4200381
I like how he repeated the same thing 3 times, is he autistic or something.
Also your entire post is extremely retarded and I suggest you grow a brain.

[Anonymous No.4200395]

>>4200390
I like how you have nothing to say about it other than call names.

Maybe you're the one who needs to grow a brain.

[Anonymous No.4200418]

>>4200395
I already told you I wouldn't argue with you anymore, the fact that you obsess over Umineko and support that kind of bullshit that is the death of the author is enough argument for me.
You don't even realize that by your own interpretation everything is fucking irrelevant, this is really pathetic.

[Anonymous No.4200434]

>>4200418
I like Umineko and you think it's shit. I think there's more and you dismiss it even though I show that there's more to it than you ignore.

Without love it cannot be seen and you lack love to appreciate Umineko.

It doesn't matter if my own interpretation is wrong or not so long as it is my own. You seem insecure about not being given an answer to the mystery.

[Anonymous No.4200449]

The only real problem with VNs is that they are stagnant. It's the same people inside the same niche repeating the same formulas. This means neither new comes from them, and nothing new comes from elsewhere, because everyone else relates the medium to the industry, as if one implied the other.
Animation suffer from similar issues, being almost exclusively aimed at children or niche markets. Unlike VNs though, we have enough examples of great animated films and series that confirm their worth as a unique storytelling medium and inspire creative people to keep it alive.
I think VNs are an interesting way to convey romance/drama or mystery/suspense, due to the self-insert narrator and the possibility of various good or bad endings. But right now, without talented authors trying new things, the medium is not getting any closer to realizing its potential.

[Anonymous No.4200455]

>>4200434
>Love to appreciate
And I thought weeaboo NEETs weren't this pathetic.
I'm not even that guy but you're worse than the faggots who bring "it's fun" to a videogame discussion.
Love he says.
We're talking about the country that brought Mishima, Kawabata, Tanizaki, Oe, Soseki and Akutagawa to the world, specially under those standards, visual novel writing is crap
Love? Go read some Kawabata and come back here talking to us about how we need love to appreciate anything.

[Anonymous No.4200469]

>>4200455
Christ, it was meant as a joke.

Throughout the story, Umineko keeps bringing up that you can't see things if you have biases and overly dislike something. I'm pointing out the fact that he think it is shit and he lacks ''love'' to see it.
That people tend to emphasise something they disliked in what they read or played rather than praise the points that they enjoyed.

[Anonymous No.4200474]

>>4200469
But anyways, go and read those authors and then go back to a VN and try to appreciate the writing.
Soseki and Kawabata will fuck with your heart if a visual novel can pull its strings.

[Anonymous No.4200481]

>>4200474
VNs hardly pull my strings and people who do are overdramatic about it. But I'll check those guy out.

[Anonymous No.4200540]

>>4200455

Since when the fun factor doesn't matter in videogames?

[Anonymous No.4200562]

What does /lit/ think of The World God Only Knows?

[Anonymous No.4200568]

>>4200540
Since always.
Saying that "fun" or "love" helps any medium, talks about how your judgement is clouded while being subject to them, but says little about the quality of the product in itself.
So when using the effect it had on you to describe the intended quality of something says jack shit and brings nothing to the discussion.

[Anonymous No.4200570]

>>4200568
>So when using the effect it had on you to describe the intended quality

Yeah because art has nothing to do with emotional impact.

Goddamn /lit/ is dumb tonight.

[Anonymous No.4200578]

I thought this was /lit/ as in Literature, not a discussion board for terrible digital plup. Seriously? While I accept the medium as having potential, as does any, how can you compare these things to the greats? Anyone who believes "VNs manage to be a lot more than regular text on paper books have ever been" must have never taken the most basic course in Literature.

[Anonymous No.4200580]

>>4198461
i'm down

[Anonymous No.4200582]

>>4200570
You're saying the writing in your petty weeaboo niche-pandering novels and videogames equates art?
Damn /vg/ is desperate for reaffirmation tonight.

[Anonymous No.4200586]

>>4200582
I don't even play VN's but lol if you think art has nothing to do with emotions

[Anonymous No.4200604]

>>4200586
is a kick in the nuts art?

[Anonymous No.4200608]

>>4200586
lol @ you thinking anyone manipulating your emotions is an artist.
I mentioned above several japanese writers that are lightyears beyond your niche-pandering games, and nobody needs emotions clouding their judgment to appreciate them.
Art is not only about emotions, it's about consistency, aesthetics, psychological exploration of self, and expressing that to someone else.
"Feels" do not equate art.

[Anonymous No.4200625]

>>4200166
Why aren't they a form of literary expression?
You realize most of the people who make visual novels aren't really in it for the profit, right? Most of them are small independent groups who make pennies selling their stuff at comiket or similar conventions. Even if they were huge companies who didn't care about the content and just wanted to make profit, the people who actually write the game, create the art, and compose the music are still artists. There is no way to argue that video games, especially visual novels, are not a form of literary expression.

[Anonymous No.4200631]

>>4200608
>consistency, aesthetics, psychological exploration of self, and expressing that to someone else

All of those things except consistency are emotionally related you fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.4200637]

>>4193318
I like words with pictures and sounds every now and then, but I think the idea of traditional books becoming obsolete in the way you're talking about is ridiculous hyperbole. The only part of the book that's becoming even somewhat obsolete is the paper and bindings they're printed on.

Poor translations really hinder my enjoyment of those sorts of works though. I wish I had the discipline to learn the language, particularly given it's one I have a longstanding interest in.

[Anonymous No.4200645]

>>4200631
Why? Because you say so?

[Anonymous No.4200649]

>>4200645
No because they are you fucking retard.

>psychological exploration of self
>nothing to do with emotions

Holy shit did you escape from retard island or something?

[Anonymous No.4200655]

>>4200649
>Psychological exploration of self
>anything to do with the reader's emotions

[Anonymous No.4200663]

>>4200608
Isn't the purpose of art to emote a reaction from the viewer? There's obviously more to just making a person react to the work in question but isn't removing the emotional aspect just damaging to art?

[Anonymous No.4200666]

>>4200655
psy·cho·log·i·cal
ˌsīkəˈläjəkəl/
adjective
adjective: psychological

1. of, affecting, or arising in the mind; related to the mental and emotional state of a person.

[Anonymous No.4200668]

>>4200663
If true then anything that involves catharsis isn't art. Sometimes showing something and demanding a lack of emotion is as important as invoking it.

Brecht made a career out of lack of emotion.

[Anonymous No.4200676]

>>4200668
ca·thar·sis
kəˈTHärsis/
noun
noun: catharsis;plural noun: catharses

1. The process of releasing, and thereby providing relief from, strong or repressed emotions.

>not related to emotion

Holy shit you've got to be the most retarded person on 4chan tonight. Please just stop posting and save yourself some embarrassment.

[Anonymous No.4200686]

>>4200676
And what happens when you release emotion? You are left empty of it. Thank you for quoting an unelaborated dictionary definition at me followed by an insult. Clearly a wonderful argument, I applaud.

[Anonymous No.4200692]

Am I right in thinking visual novels come in two types;

the anime style that only exist to realize weeaboo neckbeard masturbation fantasies,
and the western style that seem to have hit upon a common formula of dark, lonely environments, classical music and profound (at least in pretense) writing and plot?

[Anonymous No.4200698]

>>4200686
>And what happens when you release emotion? You are left empty of it.

>release emotion to create art
>"lol that art is unrelated to emotion"

Please just holy fuck stop, are you even reading what you type?

[Anonymous No.4200695]

>>4200608
How are aesthetics not to do with emotions? The definition of aesthetics is "a set of principles concerned with the nature and appreciation of beauty, esp. in art." The definition of beauty is "a combination of qualities, such as shape, color, or form, that pleases the aesthetic senses, esp. the sight." The definition of please is "cause to feel happy and satisfied." The definition of happy is "feeling or showing pleasure or contentment." And that's how aesthetics are related to feelings.

And how do you express the emotional side of the self to someone else without making them feel your emotions?

[Anonymous No.4200701]

>>4200692
Pretty much. There's also a combination of the two where one would use the neckbeard fantasies and overplay it on the design of the characters, because all characters need to have overdone breast immarightguys?, and have a decent plot without relating the two together and removing and porn in it for the sake of porn.

[Anonymous No.4200705]

>>4200692
>dark, isolated, lonely environments
>western style

nah japan is all about dat isolation, no western influence required

[Anonymous No.4200706]

>>4193709
I haven't really read many VNs but FSN and Muv-Luv both cover every point easily. It's like you've never actually read a VN and your entire idea of them is based on stereotypes and parodies you've seen in other works. Fucking pleb.

[Anonymous No.4201716]

>>4200582
>>4200608
This is very un/lit/

[Anonymous No.4201733]

>>4200706
A lot of people in this thread are over generalizing the medium and have very bias views "If it isn't western based it isn't good" kind.
They are also acting like VNs shouldn't be discussed here (a lot of them shouldn't and I can agree to that) and if a medium isn't even close to how great the best literature is, it isn't good at all which most mediums are.

[Anonymous No.4201756]

I'm lucky enough (though it was mainly hard work) to be fluent in several languages, including Japanese, so I do read some VNs in their original state in spite of being a pretty big /lit/ fag.

Just the past month I read La vérité sur l'Affaire Harry Quebert in french (worst writing I've seen in a while, can't believe it was the runner up for the Goncourt), the Bourbon Kid series in english (pretty fun with a very snappy text) and 乙女理論とその周辺, a VN in Japanese among other things and honestly I didn't felt that the eroge was inferior to them in term of narrative.
Actually, and I'd probably get some flack for this, I'd put the best VNs I read like 装甲悪鬼村正 or 最果てのイマ on par with the best Japanese novels I read, and I read a ton.

[Anonymous No.4201761]

>>4201756
Could you provide English titles (if possible) of the kanji VN's you're posting? I've tried google and it's actually pretty tricky without much knowledge of the language, heh.

[Anonymous No.4201767]

>>4201761
乙女理論とその周辺/Otome Riron to Sono Shuuhen = a literal translation would be "a Maiden's logic and its surroundings"

装甲悪鬼村正/Soukou Akki Muramasa = Full Metal Daemon Muramasa is the official translation

最果てのイマ/Saihate no Ima = Ima of the farthest would be the literal translation but it's the type of lines with several meaning that Japanese loves.

[Anonymous No.4201774]

>>4201767
Thanks, Anon!

[Anonymous No.4201857]

is there any interactive fiction posted here?
i don't want to read the whole thread of bullshit, but i feel the point of any VN that would aspire to /lit/hood would just be to have a good interactive narrative. the pictures are mainly just JO-material and i would imagine the most difficult part of the VN as you need to work with others in that case who will inevitably flake on you (visual artists). so fuck the pictures.

[Anonymous No.4201864]

>>4201857
the most difficult part if someone were to attempt to create a decent game as someone suggested, i mean

[Anonymous No.4202992]

>>4201864
KS actually turned out pretty good. I mean it wasn't exactly top tier literature, or even a particularly great VN, but for a project made by a bunch of random amateurs over the internet based on what was originally a one-off joke page it turned out much better than it had any right to be.

[Anonymous No.4203356]

>>4200455
FUCKING THIS

seriously, all weeaboos in this thread, please, do yourself a favor, if you like Japan so much, read Kawabata's Snow Country.

Then learn what a truly excellent Japanese love story is like.

You will never be able to stand another shit VN or anime again.

[Anonymous No.4203364]

>>4203356
Either samefag or didn't read the rest of the thread to see that the guy you're responding to got rekt and obviously didn't know what he was talking about.

Either way stop trying so hard.

[Anonymous No.4203392]

>>4203364
eh, no, I'm actually reading Snow country right now, and I'm an ex weeaboo, so I know how shitty and formulaic all that crap is

[Anonymous No.4203394]

>mfw people think this is literature

[Anonymous No.4203576]

ITT: No one has read Cross Channel

[Anonymous No.4203585]

>>4203394
Nobody in this thread has said they think KS is good.

[Anonymous No.4203592]

>>4203392
>I know how shitty and formulaic all that crap is

So is all Japanese literature.

[Anonymous No.4203747]

>>4203356
>a person that enjoys a well cooked steak cannot also enjoy cheap ice cream
Why you gotta be such a dick, man?

[Anonymous No.4203766]

>>4203394

>Bush Cheney 2004

what?

[Anonymous No.4203773]

>>4203766
It's a satire of the fact that Japanese tend to wear shirts with English text on them without really paying attention to what it says.

[Anonymous No.4203775]

>>4203747
>a person that enjoys a keenly contested game of chess cannot also enjoy holding someone down and farting in their face

[Anonymous No.4203778]

>>4203775
Your use of hyperbole is hella asinine, man. If you can't enjoy some feel-good escapist media that's fine, but plenty of us can. It's basically the literary equivalent of comfort food.

[Anonymous No.4203780]

Is there any significant formal difference between "light novels" and "novels with lots of illustrations"?

[Anonymous No.4203786]

>>4203780
Light novels are like they say, light. Tend to be short and simple, nothing really to make you think too much, just get you through an afternoon and self-insert into some dude surrounded by cute girls. The illustrations are kind of secondary to that.

[Anonymous No.4203825]

>>4200127
Umineko was a postmodern masterpiece

[Anonymous No.4203828]

>>4203786
So it's not even a medium, just a style?

[Anonymous No.4203834]

>>4203828
Yeah, more or less. Light novels are still just novels.

[Anonymous No.4203838]

>>4203834
Well shit then

[Anonymous No.4203841]

>>4200474
I've read Kawabata and I still like R07

they function on different levels, moron, it's like comparing Alice Munro and DFW

[Anonymous No.4203845]

>>4203394
>sentence reads a lot like Barthelme

What's your problem?

[Anonymous No.4203861]

H-has anyone here read Digital: A Love Story?

[Anonymous No.4203865]

Can we all stop pretending we didn't just have a 200 post long Katawa Shoujo thread on /lit/?

[Anonymous No.4203866]

>>4203865
this isn't a KS thread and KS isn't a very good representation of VN's as a medium

[Anonymous No.4203870]

>>4203866
I enjoyed it, does that make me a pleb?

[Anonymous No.4203877]

>>4203870
I mean it was alright for what it was but it's just not fair to judge all VN's by it

[Anonymous No.4203885]

>>4203877
>tfw I tried to shitpost but now I just feel bad about it
Hold me, /lit/

[Anonymous No.4203928]

>>4203885
Don't worry, the feeling will pass eventually.

[Anonymous No.4203943]

>>4203928

I feel better.

[Anonymous No.4204000]

>>4193318
>>4200313
>>4200304
>>4200299
>>4200290
>>4203394
>>4203928
>>4203943
Jesus Christ just fuck off back to your own board.

[Anonymous No.4204002]

>>4204000
>If I don't like it it doesn't belong here
Fuck off, retard. They're called visual NOVELS for a reason.

[Anonymous No.4204006]

>>4204002
Haha delusional faggot.

[Anonymous No.4204011]

>>4204000
Go back to yours.
>>>/v/

[Anonymous No.4204014]

psst... go into /jp/ and start laying erotic role play on the nerds... it's easy to spot out the ones who want it...

[Anonymous No.4204016]

>>4203861
Yeah I liked it. The story was simple, but the medium used to deliver it was really unique and captivating. I think that sort of thing can be used with more serious literature, if someone tried.

[Anonymous No.4204045]

So, what about light novels then? I mean, there's tons of shitty light novels out there, but Tatami Galaxy is fucking 10/10.

Too bad it's never gonna get translated into English, though.

[Anonymous No.4204049]

>>4204045
That a feel. At the New York Kinokuniya I bought the novel, though. I have aspirations of learning Japanese and being able to read it one day, though.

[Anonymous No.4204051]

>>4204049
Though. Though. Though. I should proofread, though.

[Anonymous No.4204054]

>>4204051
>tfw I'm a huge though abuser

oh god make it stop

[Anonymous No.4204192]

Y'all postan' in a Ti9 thread.

[Anonymous No.4204263]

>>4204192
Ti9 is my waifu.

[Anonymous No.4204971]

>>4193318
I liked Katawa Shoujo.
And also The Dresden Files.
Visual novels are nice, but not gonna replace books just yet, if ever.

[Anonymous No.4204988]

>>4200282
The difference between NY Times best selling authors and NEETs is that the authors got lucky.

[Anonymous No.4205084]

In general they are terrible, both in theory and in practice. They are anime/manga + literature without the strengths of either, and almost everyone who makes them are unskilled fanfiction-level writers.

To say they could replace books is ridiculous. You may as well say picture books (which are what visual novels basically are, just in digital form) will replace books too. The value in literature is that the words guide your imagination and you can experience them at completely your own pace. An emphasis on pictures and spoken dialogue undermine that.

The only ones I liked are Saya no Uta and Umineko which I read years ago. Any of the harem crap is automatically garbage.

[Anonymous No.4205097]

>>4193432
You can experience most visual novels without actually looking at any of the pictures. You obviously can't do that with manga, where the story is told both in the pictures and the text (which primarily servers as dialogue). So yea, I don't see where you get the idea that visual novels are more like manga. I mean clearly they have a lot in common as far as visuals and stories go, but as a medium visual novels are very much novels with some pretty, possibly slightly-animated, pictures.

[Anonymous No.4205830]

Does this count as a visual novel? I thought it was pretty good.

[Anonymous No.4206780]

I like the concept but I feel that it's under-used most of the time.

[Anonymous No.4206799]

>>4205097
They're more like children's picture books

[Anonymous No.4208104]

>>4206780
A lot of that is the fault of a lot of the best stuff being untranslated, if you're reading translated stuff.

[Anonymous No.4208117]

>>4208104
>A lot of that is the fault of a lot of the best stuff being untranslated, if you're reading translated stuff.
Yea I guess. I contemplated learning Japanese (not for VN) but took French instead. Figures pleb shit would get translated more than good things. It's always like that.

[Anonymous No.4208131]

>>4208117
Yeah, the problem is that most of the best stuff is very difficult to translate it in a way that does justice to the original, and you're going to get criticized a lot pretty much no matter what you do by people that loved the original so most don't even try. Just look at what happened when Ixrec tried to translate Cross Channel.

[Anonymous No.4208141]

>>4208131
>Just look at what happened when Ixrec tried to translate Cross Channel.
The butthurt ensuing from the popular translations of Water Margin and Journey To The West squared and augmented with internet insults? Yes.

[Anonymous No.4208181]

>>4208131
I'm curious, have you read Cross Channel in Japanese? I read Ixrec's translation a bit back and it didn't seem too bad to me, and yet there's a retranslation happening by another group. I understand that Romeo's prose is supposed to be amazing, but overall the translation seemed pretty solid to me and conveyed the ideas of the VN pretty well (if not the prose).

[Anonymous No.4208193]

>>4208181
Nah, I haven't. I actually didn't notice much wrong with it my first time either, but when I reread it it did seem kind of awkward in parts. Still not as if we ever would have gotten better.

It's not as if it was a horrible translation, but it was a translation of a work with prose that was always hella praised so it's bound to get criticized hard, especially by people who read it in Japanese and have no need for a translation, yet get offended that those who can't read Japanese would read an inferior version rather than not reading it at all.

[Anonymous No.4208199]

>>4208193
Fair enough. I'm learning Japanese now, so maybe some day I'll be able to compare it for myself. That being said, though, I'll probably end up missing all the translator's notes explaining some of the weirder references.

[Anonymous No.4208515]

>>4203592
>So is all literature.
ftfy

[Anonymous No.4209401]

>>4208515
Not Battle Literature

[Anonymous No.4209490]

>>4209401
>Battle literature
What are you, 12?

[Hexer !NHpYSS45yU No.4209952]

I wonder if /lit/ would be able to brew up a decent VN. If you have experience as a playwright or screenwriter it's probably going to be a lot easier.

[Anonymous No.4209958]

>>4209952
We'd need artists though.
Also
>mfw this thread hasn't been deleted yet

[Hexer !NHpYSS45yU No.4209966]

>>4209958
>We'd need artists though.
First things first. After you've hashed out the first 500KB you can whore it out to artists. They tend to prefer things that don't look like they'll suddenly die. Art is important to enjoying a VN. Not to making one.

[Anonymous No.4209968]

>>4209401
hahahahahahahahhaa the term Battle Literature is making me laugh hard

[Anonymous No.4209973]

>>4209966
>500KB
Do you have any idea how much that is? I'm pretty sure War and Peace is less than that in plaintext.

[Anonymous No.4209974]

>>4209966
>>4209973
How long, in terms of words, does a VN tend to be? I image less than, say, Les Miserables or Infinite Jest but more than an average novel.

[Hexer !NHpYSS45yU No.4209981]

>>4209974

Let me look up some examples real quick but lengths beyond the upper third of Wikipedia's Longest Novel listing do happen.

>>4209973
Several VN (Jap) go up to 3MB script size. Doesn't make them superior of course, but this medium does seem to beat out traditional literature in the wordiness department in more than a few instances.

[Anonymous No.4209989]

>>4209981
Sweet Mother Mary and Jesus

[Hexer !NHpYSS45yU No.4210012]

>>4209981
>>4209974
>>4209989
YUP.
http://amaterasu.tindabox.net/index.php?page=projects

http://tlwiki.org/index.php?title=VN/Eroge_Script_sizes

Among the most popular VN that got a translation the average script size is at or around 3MB - 4MB and goes up for untranslated ones.

Now, obviously Jap works a bit differently in how things are stored but it's nevertheless a pretty impressive achievement.

A single VN is more like a book series or full season of a TV show than a "novel" in both length, script size and in terms of what happens from start to finish.
Have a translated break-down of the costs, link courtesy of /jp/.
http://vnchan.com/thread-310.html

Scenario writers are paid by the line or KB, meaning there's incentive to get as much down as possible.

I had another link explaining how much a scenario cost on average but I lost it.

[Anonymous No.4210020]

>>4210012
oh so its like how Evelyn Waugh wrote all those really long articles to get paid mad cash?

Fuck that'd be a lot of work

[Anonymous No.4210027]

>>4203394
Mhm, you know, this is at the same level of Hamingway and other american novelist.

[Anonymous No.4210029]

>>4210012
That explains a lot of things, in fact. Including the prevalence of "........." ellipses that look like that.

[Hexer !NHpYSS45yU No.4210044]

>>4210027
Whoa hey, a lot of them were seriously alright.

>>4210020
Pretty much, yea.
> a lot of work
I think they're also working at it Journalist style so there's always a rather tight schedule to keep. Unless they're indie ("Doujin", in nipponese) studios that landed a major hit like the people behind Fate/Stay Night or Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni, then they work on SOON™-time.


>>4203394
> KS
> not mocked by pretty much anyone that has read more than KS
No.

>>4209958
>>mfw this thread hasn't been deleted yet
The odd VN threads I see here once a quarter seem to usually remain unmolested.

[Anonymous No.4210182]

>>4209981
The Scene.txt from my mostly completed (I didn't do all of the choices) is over 6MB in size. Granted the fact that it is in unicode instead of ASCII probably accounts for some of this size.

[Anonymous No.4210188]

>>4210182
>Mostly completed
WELL LETS COMPLETE THE FUCKER THEN

[Hexer !NHpYSS45yU No.4210196]

>>4210182
> 6MB
HOT.
I want information.

[Anonymous No.4210199]

>>4209952
>the waifus would all be famous authors
>Virginia Woolf, Ayn Rand, Oscar Wilde ect
>Anything but Wilde is a bad end
>the Joyce route is pure filth

[Hexer !NHpYSS45yU No.4210204]

>>4210199
> mfw F. Scott Fitzgerald route

[Anonymous No.4210221]

>>4210199
>>the Joyce route is procedurally generated filth
Fixed.

[Anonymous No.4210235]

I think the only VN we can regard as true literature would be OMGWTFOTL. It has everything someone could want.

[Anonymous No.4210239]

If anyone who uses tvtropes for any purpose were banned from this board then these threads wouldn't happen

[Anonymous No.4210244]

Why would you bother with this crap when there's plenty of real Japanese literature to read?

[Anonymous No.4210248]

>>4210244
Why would you bother with that crap when there's plenty of real European literature to read?

[Anonymous No.4210253]

>>4210248
Because that would be racist.

[Anonymous No.4210257]

>>4210248
I mean, it would be racist not to.

[Anonymous No.4210324]

>>4210188
>>4210196
I would, but then I'd have to change my system locale again, and besides I'm already reading Umineko.

[Anonymous No.4210358]

>>4210324
Can you not just upload it somewhere so we can change all the names like >>4210199 suggested?
It'll be __fun___

[Anonymous No.4210372]

Please return to /jp/, all of you.

[Anonymous No.4210378]

>>4210372

[Anonymous No.4210405]

>>4210372
>only muh highbrow western canon is literature
Nah, weeaboo lit is still lit

[Anonymous No.4210410]

>>4210405
see
>>4210244

[Anonymous No.4210419]

>>4210410
Just because VNs are generally shit doesn't mean they don't belong here.

[Anonymous No.4210423]

>>4210419
Correct. The fact that there is already a board for them means they don't belong here.

[Anonymous No.4210429]

>>4210423
>implying /jp/ is a VN containment board and not a 2hu contrainment

[Anonymous No.4210431]

>>4203845
Firstly, it does not. Secondly 90% of his work is crap.

[Anonymous No.4210434]

>>4210423
Topics can belong on multiple boards.

[Anonymous No.4210440]

>>4210423
/jp/ would be a terrible place to have a discussion about VNs as an artistic/literary medium. The OP seemed interested in their potential to expand beyond the generic weeaboo/moeshit typical of the medium. /jp/ loves that shit, though, so they aren't going to care for discussion of it beyond that.

[Anonymous No.4210442]

>>4209973
>>4209981
>>4209989
>>4210012
Are you guys really impressed by the length of this crap, or have you never heard of In the Realms of the Unreal? There is fanfiction that is tens of millions of words long. This is the kind of stuff obsessive autists are willing to waste their time doing.

[Anonymous No.4210444]

>>4210442
Is that the SSB fanfic which is the longest work of "literature" in the world?

[Anonymous No.4210577]

>>4210358
Here's the link to SEEN.txt: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yumctjm0ppewqgq/SEEN.TXT

Warning: it has a habit of crashing Notepad.
Also I don't know how you'd edit it from just this file.

[Anonymous No.4210638]

>>4210577
What do I even do with this?
It's like the fukken' enigma machine m8

[Anonymous No.4210658]

>>4210638
Honestly, I don't know. I believe it keeps track of all lines you've read so that you can skip them later, but I don't know exactly how it works. I only uploaded it since it was requested.

[Anonymous No.4210829]

>>4210658
was kinda expecting a manuscript or what have you
How do you even "write" a VN anyway? Seems a weird thing to actually do, the thought process you'd have to have to plan out options and routes

[Anonymous No.4210859]

>>4210829
I'd guess you begin with a flowchart describing the different routes.

[Anonymous No.4210931]

>>4210859
>meet girl
>become friends
>fuck
>good relationship
>some problem
>work to fix it
>looking bad
>she gets abducted by the Vagina Beasts
>you need to fight the monsters of the planet Zurzx
>you lose
>you die
>the last hour is just text and images depicting the rape and slaughter of the human race, including all the characters you've met
>last shot is of your >tfwnogf
>she is anointed Queen of the Vagina Beasts
>she was a Vagina Beast from Zurzx all along

[Anonymous No.4210993]

>>4210931
7.5/10 would play

[Anonymous No.4211009]

>translation literally never

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLf9oWUe2fc

this is suffering

[Anonymous No.4211388]

>>4209989
An old list, but http://pastebin.com/T8CLZt80

[Anonymous No.4212223]

>>4211009
/jp/ said it's not very good anyway

[Anonymous No.4212228]

>>4210859
Depends on how you want it to play out. Personally I think a flowchart is only really necessary if you plan on incorporating a high degree of branching, rather than the more common structure of a more or less static common route diverging into the different routes at one point, which would just kind of be like writing a bunch of parallel stories rather than worrying too much about where things branch.

I do prefer the few that are hella branchy though, but I think they're probably a pain to write.

[Anonymous No.4214139]

>>4212223
Since when did /jp/ have good taste in anything?

[Anonymous No.4214750]

What's the difference between Visual Novels, Light Novels, Sound Novels, and Kinetic Novels? I've seen all these terms used pretty much interchangeably.

[Anonymous No.4214769]

>>4214750
Light Novels are basically what they sound like, short novels meant for light reading. Visual Novels, Kinetic Novels, and Sound novels are all basically the same thing nowadays. Technically Kinetic Novel is a trademark of Visual Arts and specifically refers to a Visual Novel where you can make choices. This is in contrast to Visual Novels such as Umineko where the player doesn't actually make any choices. Sound Novels are the oldest kind of Visual Novel and is technically a trademark of Chunsoft. It basically just refers to any kind of electronic novel with some kind of sound playing (not necessarily voiced).

tldr: While there are some small technical differences between Sound, Kinetic, and Visual Novels, the term Visual Novel encompasses all of them and is more commonly used. Light Novels are something else entirely.

[Anonymous No.4215257]

>>4214769
Actually pretty sure Kinetic Novel implies no choices. Planetarian is a popular example of this, you're right about it being a Key trademark though. Sound novels is same deal, no choices involved, just a story.

[Anonymous No.4215456]

>>4204045
http://tatami.cadet-nine.org/

Ever so slowly.

[Anonymous No.4215801]

>>4215257
Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking when I typed that. I meant to say that in Kinetic Novels you can't make choices and that Umineko was an example of one.

[Anonymous No.4215820]

>>4215257
I've heard good things about Planetarian, is it decent?

[Anonymous No.4217006]

>>4215820
It's hella predictable but it's alright I guess for some short with some feels.

[Anonymous No.4217009]

Guy here wrote a 300+ page analysis of Cross Channel: http://georgehenryshaft.wordpress.com/ Also retranslated the entire thing because he didn't think the old one was good enough to illustrate the stuff he was talking about or something.

[Hexer !NHpYSS45yU No.4217024]

>>4215820
Surprisingly so if you're not allergic to cuteness.


>>4217009
Wait, the CC re-trans is finished?

[Anonymous No.4217037]

>>4217024
Yeah. Came out yesterday.

[Hexer !NHpYSS45yU No.4217043]

>>4217037
...glorious. Thanks, anon.

[Anonymous No.4217269]

>>4217009
>you will never write up a 300+ page analysis of a visual novel and then translate it so that it is superior to what it was before
;_;

[Anonymous No.4217325]

>yfw this thread is nearly at bump limit

[Anonymous No.4217366]

>>4210244
I don't know moon.

[Anonymous No.4217387]

>>4217366
You can learn in less than a month if you're dedicated enough.

[Anonymous No.4217449]

>People in this thread actually liking Katawa Shoujo.
>Arguing with people who have never even read a VN.

Well, this thread was shit from the word go.

Even Saya no Uta is less entry-level than this thread.

[Anonymous No.4217850]

>>4217449
I thought the thread already came to the consensus that KS was shit.

[Anonymous No.4217909]

I haven't yet seen a VN do what couldn't be expressed in a manga, anime or book. So the question is "do you happen to like these specific Japanese hentai stories that happen to use an unconvetional medium?"

Let's talk more generally here.

I like the idea of using a digital medium to tell a story, because a branching narrative is acceptable and uncumbersome to do without seeming like a juvenile gimmick. Plus, even subtle multimedia elements can serve to plant you more firmly inside the story.

Galatea is a text-based game and one of the best branching narratives I've read. It consists of a conversation with a single character, followed by a huge number of different endings. You're not reading someone's story, you're in the gallery, conversing with Galatea. She changes based on your interpretation of her and your responses to her, taking many different forms and your conversation taking many different outcomes. There isn't a "true" ending, just many branches of possibilities and stories within stories, mutually incompatible, but all real in the context of their own stories. I don't think you could tell this sort of story in a book or a film.

You can play/read/experience/whateverthefuck it here: http://pr-if.org/play/galatea/

Most importantly though: when you write in a digital medium, there's room for anything you want. The Stanley Parable, Dear Esther, Gone Home and even Journey aren't really games, they're extreme examples of this sort of digital storytelling. Some of them may or may not have squandered that potential to some degree, but it's clear there is a lot that can be accomplished.

So, a better question is: "what do you think about the potential of a digital medium for fiction?"

[Anonymous No.4218182]

>>4217909
YU-NO makes the branching thing work pretty well and is central to the narrative.

[Anonymous No.4218271]

>biggest thread on /lit/
>weeaboo circlejerk

are you fucking kidding me

[Anonymous No.4218310]

>>4218271
>Weeaboo Circle Jerk
>at least half the posts are against the concept of VNs as literature

[Anonymous No.4218490]

>>4217909
Off the top of my head, Ever 17's main twist couldn't expressed as well in any other medium. In addition, G-senjou no Maou and Sharin no Kuni's twists would able be hard to pull off in most mediums (but possible to a degree within books). Plus as you mentioned with galatea there are a lot of VNs have branching structures. Some of these, such as Fate/Stay Night don't have a True or Canon route, while the ones that do typically find a way to tie in all the routes into the True route (MuvLuv and Rewrite for instance).
I definitely agree with you, though, that there is still much room for improvement as VNs get better at finding the niche of their medium.

>>4218271
You act like you've never seen a GRRM thread here before.

[Anonymous No.4219809]

>>4193318
>I think the medium has a lot of potential
Before I readth through the thread, I will honestly say, I wholeheartedly agree.

It's practically untouched.

[Anonymous No.4219835]

>>4198141
>Anyone with a decent grasp on storytelling knows the fact that a medium that allows for interaction and simulation is wasting its time trying to convey a singular narrative.
Can someone elaborate on this

A VN still tells a story but it has several branches. It's no different than those Goosebumps books where you flip ahead 20 pages instead of reading the next page.

[Anonymous No.4219859]

>>4217909
Someone hasn't played 999 and flipped their DS over

[Anonymous No.4220358]

>>4219859
No but I flipped your mom over last night lol

[Anonymous No.4220390]

>>4220358
fukin rekt