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/lit/ - Literature

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4176874 No.4176874[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

How is weakness a good thing, according to daoism?

>> No.4176880

>>4176874
because weakness is passive

>> No.4176883

>>4176880
And how is passivity good?

>> No.4176887

>>4176883
because the tao is passive

>> No.4176891

>>4176887
>Tao is beta

tell me something we don't know

>> No.4176894

>>4176887
Can you actually explain something?

>> No.4176892

>>4176887
And how is the tao passive?

>> No.4176917

taoism is stupid

>> No.4176919

>>4176892
by yielding

>>4176894
i am

>> No.4176922

>>4176919
you're not explaining anything you're just saying it's good because it's good

explain it in more than 5 words

>> No.4176939

>>4176922
the tao is simple, words complicate.

>> No.4176944

The perfect tree will be chopped down and used as construction material where as useless tree might be left alone. You can't steal from someone who doesn't have anything from value. You can't draft someone who's unfit for military service. Those who reached their peak will are on their way down, those who reached the lowest point are on their way up.

>> No.4176954

>>4176944
So the goal is to be weak so you can eventually move up out of necessity?

>> No.4176956

>>4176954
the goal is to follow the tao

>> No.4176963

>>4176922

the tao that can be named is not the eternal tao

it's the first line of the book you nigger

>> No.4176961

>>4176954
What stream flows uphill?

>> No.4176964

>>4176944
There's another thing about successful/famous people running through the streets with their head held down because they're afraid they might be confronted. A low person on the other hand has his back erect and his head held up high.

>> No.4176970

>>4176963
But you're not explaining anything else, the book isn't composed of 5 words

>> No.4176977

>>4176944
You need to first be crooked to straighten, and weak to become strong, but that acknowledges that becoming strong is desirable.

How would a taoist live then?

>> No.4176981

>>4176963
So did you read the rest of it? If yes, why?

>>4176954
Not really, I think. I suppose it just means when you're down in the gutter and the situation doesn't seem to able to get any worse there isn't much left to worry about, meanwhile a rich person might be very afraid of losing what he gained. More money more problems.

The daoistic approach the wealth might be to enjoy it while it lasts and to enjoy it when it's gone again. It comes, it goes. Such is life.

>> No.4176988

>>4176981
But being strong to keep what you have results in happiness if you are managing it with enough will and discipline, I don't understand how such passivity is desirable

>> No.4176990

>>4176874
Not so much weakness as flexibility. Flexibel shit doesn't break as quickly as rigid shit.

>> No.4176991

>>4176990
Yeah, but there are things hard enough to never be broken.

>> No.4176994
File: 45 KB, 717x508, le wu wei face.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4176994

>>4176977
Laid back.

>> No.4176996

>>4176991
Except there aren't.

>> No.4177002

>>4176981
Another thing might be moderation. If you eat ice cream all day everyday and you have become used to the taste it probably loses it's value. Sure, a rich guy is able to buy the best food but then something ordinary might taste better to a starving person then everything a rich one could ever buy.

>> No.4177000

>>4176977
There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit.

"Such bad luck," they said sympathetically.

"We'll see," the farmer replied.

The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses.

"How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed.

"We'll see," replied the old man.

The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.

"We'll see," answered the farmer.

The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.

"We'll see" said the farmer.

>> No.4177011

>>4176988
I believe it isn't about desiring at all but to take things as they are and to flow with them. To me being weak is nothing I wish to be but If I am that's just how it is. Same thing with being strong. I wouldn't desire it because someday I will lose my strength again and until then everybody tries to prove their strenght by trying to beat me. If you are strong, ok, but don't take it for granted.

>> No.4177012

>>4176996
Some people were never broken until their last breaths

>> No.4177018

It's really fucking hard to talk about the dao, because there are always exceptions. Find out what it means to you, if it means something to you.

... This obviously being an exception ;)

>> No.4177019

>>4176961
The Nile River

>> No.4177134

>>4177000
...keep going

>> No.4177138

>>4177012
And some things stay dry until they get wet.

>> No.4177163

>>4177000
Fuck I dont get it.

Dont be excited or sad about anything?

>> No.4177175
File: 1.08 MB, 750x563, wu-wei.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4177175

>>4177163
Not so much that as realising the transient nature of things and don't get hung up regarding what you know will be different tomorrow. Realise how this Dao thing rolls and practice wu wei and roll with it.

Pic related, now you have to pee

>> No.4177205

>>4177163
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

>> No.4177207

>>4176874
>weakens
>toughens
>good

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

>> No.4177241

>>4177000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZJJtw2DHfY

>> No.4177243
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4177243

Bamboo in the wind. It will not break by yielding. But that's actually flexibility, quite different from the Judeo-Christian glorification of slave-mentality.

>> No.4177546 [DELETED] 
File: 2.80 MB, 1600x956, tree.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
[ERROR]

>> No.4177556
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4177556

>> No.4177575

>>4176961
The Licking River

>> No.4177610

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qpgL6ndEQU

Let everything that's been planned come true. Let them believe. And let them have a laugh at their passions. Because what they call passion actually is not some emotional energy, but just the friction between their souls and the outside world. And most important, let them believe in themselves. Let them be helpless like children, because weakness is a great thing, and strength is nothing. When a man is just born, he is weak and flexible. When he dies, he is hard and insensitive. When a tree is growing, it's tender and pliant. But when it's dry and hard, it dies. Hardness and strength are death's companions. Pliancy and weakness are expressions of the freshness of being. Because what has hardened will never win.

>> No.4177724

>>4177556
NEETlife tactics

>> No.4177730

>>4177610
So the end goal is still to win?

>> No.4177748

>taoism
>not a bunch of vague meaningless bullshit that's written so ambiguously that everyone who reads it has a wildly different interpretation of it than the next guy

pick one

>> No.4177756

It's not that weakness is good. It's that efficient use of force and the willingness to adapt is better than being a bull in a china closet.

>> No.4177993

>>4177724
Whatever works dude.

>> No.4178015

>>4177556
What fucking order am I supposed to read this shit in? It looks like a big, garbled mess of panels.

>> No.4178017

>>4178015
First row down, second row down, ...

>> No.4178019

>>4177748
>The point.

>Your head.

Its supposed to have a degree of openness retard. It's not a carrot in front of a donkey philosophy like Christianity, about certain fixed points and rigid beliefs, it's about communicating a understandable sense of tao for you to understand.

>> No.4178027

>>4178019
I wouldn't say it's elitist but daoism certainly isn't for the masses and intellectually more demanding than a dogmatic religion.

>> No.4178049

>>4178027
That's the most ironic part about Taoism, at it's core many of it's values are very simple. The un-carved block, the bamboo in the wind, etc,... But for some reason an open, simplistic philosophical answer is harder to comprehend than a definite complex one.

>> No.4178060

>>4178049
I guess so. Alan Watts said for example when a guru tells you that he has nothing to teach is pretty much telling the truth and he only becomes a teacher when you're trying to be his student. He basically just plays along until you get there is nothing you could do about enlightenment, or rather it doesn't really exist anyhow so you might as well just eat your food and go back to business. Something like that. It's your own expectations that's causing the problems.

>> No.4178155

>>4177019
>>4177575
If you are the Licking or Nile, then flow up hill.

>> No.4178161
File: 75 KB, 560x315, 29-Zhuangzi_dreaming_of_butterfly_1_large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4178161

>>4178049
I think some people live like this naturally

But this was a philosophy in a historical context, it was responding to the overly intellectual Chinese philosophies of the 100 schools, especially Confucianism. So even though its trying to get at this non verbal, simplistic and natural way of being, it's trying to argue this to a bunch of upper class Chinese intellectuals, so the actual written work is very sophisticated philosophically and aesthetically - but it also includes within it the caveat that the truth it is pointing to is beyond all words (the Dao that can be named is not the true Dao, etc)

>> No.4178216

>>4176874
Weakness is passive, and the tao is passive, and the whole meaning being taoism is just do. Not "it" but to just /do/ whatever that may be so passiveness and just being passive is dao really anything taoism says is what you should do, it's very confusing, we barely touched base on this in class and my teacher with a masters degree in philosophy could barely explain it.

>> No.4178269

>>4177000
Wow that farmer sounds like such a dick.

>> No.4178289

>>4178269
it would depend on the tone of the farmer's voice which we don't know

>> No.4178322

I had this concept, a thing which acts as a "light" and shines through a layer of "natures", projecting images onto reality.

Is that anything like the tao?

>> No.4178554

>>4178322
stop snow keen the merry iguana.

>> No.4178648

>>4178216
I don't get it, why should I embrace passivity? It's what I did all my life and as soon as I stopped it and took actual control of my life everything started getting better.

>> No.4178685

>>4177163
If you can meet with triumph or disaster,
and treat those two imposters just the same

>> No.4178690

Master Tung-kuo asked Chuang Tzu, "This thing called the Way-where does it exist?"
Chuang Tzu said, "There's no place it doesn't exist."
"Come," said Master Tung-kuo, "you must be more specific!"
"It is in the ant."
"As low a thing as that?"
"It is in the panic grass."
"But that's lower still!"
"It is in the tiles and shards."
"How can it be so low?"
"It is in the piss and shit."
Master Tung-kuo made no reply.

>> No.4178709
File: 1.77 MB, 312x234, Shiggy.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4178709

>>4178269
>Pathological reaction stemming from a proscriptive moral framework.
shiggy

Also, I am so fucking tired of these threads. It is a clusterfuck of imbecilic comments and insubstantial arguments. Let's put it to rest, shall we?
>Ask a scholar of Daoism anything.

>> No.4178746

>>4176874
The Dao De Jing is used as a general mystical text but its primary use was as a political manuscript- that is, it's primary audience was the Man of Authority, especially the King (which, in early Chinese cultural, was a religious office held by a Sage, a shaman). Daoism argues that the king that forces his subjects into something only creates discord and immorality because strongarming is itself discordant and immoral. Instead, Daoism argues the king should be weak (not strong) and let his subjects flourish. To prove this as most effective, Daoism uses the Dao and how it is always, at every moment, in every place, letting natural phenomena flow and be, and so they are. The Dao itself is weak, and in being weak the Dao is the power of all things. So the king should be like the Dao, like the Pole-Star, which moves not but is circled by all the other stars.

>> No.4178758

>>4178709
Why did Lao Tze eat monkey shit? As a heavenly alchemist that cunt ought to have been able to have told the difference between immortality pills and monkey shit by sight.

>> No.4178785

>>4178758
Read the Yi Jing. You might be shocked at some of the things that they prescribe you.
It involves your sperm. SOL if you're not biologically male.

>> No.4178787

>>4178785
>not knowing that women have sperm in Chinese alchemy

>> No.4179339

>>4178648
You confuse being passiv with being neglectful.

>> No.4179369

>>4178709
Being pleasant and cautiously optimistic is always the best way to go. Faith is the only real solution to despair. That farmer just sounds rude and patronising.

>> No.4179770

>>4179369
It's a daoist story, not US customer support.

>> No.4182116

>>4179770
lel

>> No.4182572

>>4178746
The connection between daoism and legalism is obvious when you read Han Feizi. The ideal ruler is more like setting a stage and then reward and punish those who does right or wrong.

Also, daoism is a good way of look at creativity (and mathematics). Some things can't just be forced.

>> No.4182574

>>4182572
And that reminds me of Louis XIV - The Sun King. He spoke as little as possible.

>> No.4183376
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4183376

What Daoism means is weakness in the sense of non-interference and adaptation to the circumstances.

>> No.4183386

>reading Chinese philosophy in translation
might as well not bother

>> No.4183490

>>4179369
>pleasantries and optimism
>not the leading cause of unhappiness in the first world

>> No.4183503

>>4183386
i agree with your conclusion but disagree with the implication that chinese philosophy would be worth reading in the original language

>> No.4183523

>>4183503
Explain why it's not worth reading. Try to keep uneducated plebeianism to a minimum.

>> No.4183530

>>4183523
because chinese society is shit and all of their original philosophy is about societal organization
just read european philosophy it's a lot better

>> No.4183575

Weakness means to be flexible and receptive. In daoism, it is not a good thing in itself, it just counter points strenght. The reason we take that daoism prescribes weakness is that we hold too much value in strenght, whereas both weakness and strenght hold the same importance according to daoism. It is easier for us to believe in strenght because it protect us, but it also deprive us from movement.

Weakness is Yin. Read on things and processes that are Yin: black, receptiveness, downwards motion, etc. If the ground is rigid, water cannot go through, in the dark any light will shine, etc. You can also have a good grasp on the concept of weakness through martial arts. I think most martial arts (even the ones from the west) teaches on when to yield and when to be rigid. If you are stiff the entire time, anything your opponent does will take you out of balance. If you learn how to roll on the ground instead of landing on rigid feet you can save yourself from breaking a leg, and so on. If you compare to buddhist ideas, weakness can also mean not to cling (to the past, to desire, to expectations) and so you can adapt yourself more easily to each situation.

cont

>> No.4183578

>>4183575 cont

In daoist philosophy, there is a time to be strong and rigid and a time to be weak and yielding. The Dao is not receptive as some people claimed, it is neither receptive nor creative(the opposite of receptiveness).

The word "De" ("Te") means the "intelligence" of the one who is in accordance with the Dao and that means exactly about to find that right position towards each circumstance. It is often compared to the sails of a boat, that does not push forward in "ignorance" like an engine, but uses the power of the wind in its current situation the best way possible. What daoism teaches is how to handle that sail accordingly. Tao Te Ching (Daodejing) could be translated as "book on how to go with the Dao".

>> No.4183589

>>4183575
>>4183578
finally someone breaks it down

>> No.4183934

Passivity is central to the way of Tao. Taoism is sublimating your will into the desires of others, "do not be concerned with self or wealth. Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense.". This allows one to learn more about the self without being overburdened by one's ego and desire, and how best to assist others. "The very best is like water, water quenches the ten thousand things and does not strive. It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao." "Amass a store of gold and jade and no one can protect it." "In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired. In pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped." "Become the stream of the universe, being the stream of the universe become as a little child once more." It councils you to simplicity, that you cannot be controlled by what you have, and others will not seek to control you. "Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations. Ever desireless, one sees the mystery." It is that emptiness that makes one useful, and truly able to pursue one's self with greater clarity. "Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub, it is the center hole which makes it useful. Shape clay into a pot, it is the space within that makes it useful. Therefore, benefit comes from what is there, usefulness from what is not there."

Just a couple of verses to better establish the centrality of emptiness, passivity, and lessening of willful desire.

>> No.4183936

>>4176922
the tao that can be explained is not the true tao

>> No.4184086

>>4183936
Wow, you are truly enlightened.

>> No.4184107

>>4183386
But even reading Chinese philosophy in the oldest available Chinese is still reading it in translation

>> No.4184114
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4184114

>>4183530
>because chinese society is shit
>and all of their original philosophy is about societal organization
>just read european philosophy it's a lot better

>> No.4184462

>>4183490
Reminds me of Ehrenreich's Bright-Sided: How Positive Thinking Is Underming America.

>>4183530
>implying that philosophy about societal organization is bad
Well, that's the point of Han Feizi. He was a nobleman that adressed the issue of leadership. He was not one of those middle class philosophers who travled about and pretty much entertained other noblemen.

Han Feizi's bantering about various philosopher's ideas about funeral and mourning practices is comedy cold. All he do is to apply the simple "both may be wrong but only one can be right"-tool.

>> No.4184474

>>4178709
>Not believing in a proscriptive moral framework
How about I steal your fucking iphone and shit on your porch, you fucking bourgeois imbecile, we'll see what you think of 'proscriptive moral frameworks' then.

>> No.4184477

>>4183578
>The word "De" ("Te") means the "intelligence" of the one who is in accordance with the Dao and that means exactly about to find that right position towards each circumstance.
No it doesn't, you asshat.


道: direction; way; road; path; principle; truth; morality; reason; skill; method; Dao (of Daoism); to say; to speak; to talk; measure word for long thin stretches, rivers, roads etc; province (of Korea do , and formerly Japan dō)

The primary meanings are 'way, road' and 'to say, to speak'.

>> No.4184478

>>4184462
reading philosophy about societal organization by people from a society of shit is stupid
it's like asking an obese man for weight loss tips

>> No.4184488

>>4184478
Except that it isn't shit.

>> No.4184586
File: 820 KB, 450x252, 我喜歡中國菜.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4184586

>>4184474
Too bad I live in the woods like the truly enlightened man.
Mad you're not a woodsman yet?

>> No.4184994

>>4184477
I was talking about a different word all along. De, not Dao. De is virtue, "power", but to understand what this virtue mean, you have to see it in relationship to Dao, hence my explanation.

And I wouldn't say "way" is the primary meaning of Dao, first because Dao resists conceptualization, so there is no primary or secondary meaning, that is to diminish it. Second because Way is just the most common translation, it is the word that is most suiting for westerns to get into it. What does "way" mean anyway? A path in the ground, or the process of going through it? Dao calls for the same questions. You could call it "nature" if you want, you are translating a word that has no translation. But the problem with that is that we have too much concepts around "nature", too much prejudices and it would be a drag to argue from that. So "Way" is fine.

>>4183530
I believe that analogy is one of the most important processes in Daoism. You are constantly putting things in relation to others, something is always like something else. That's why it's full of metaphors.

When these writings are shaped in the form of advices to a king, it is also talking about everything else. Microcosmos and macrocosmos. The way a king relates to his soldiers is like the way your conscience relates to the use of your strenght.

Besides, we, contemporary westerns, dwelve too much on individualism, as if all thought was there to boost the individual. Daoism works on other levels (but also that one).