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/lit/ - Literature

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4126721 No.4126721 [Reply] [Original]

What is your argument against pure hedonism?

Just full on embracing of the most basic pleasures in life, drugs, alcohol, sex, partying and so on.

>> No.4126736

Going to any extreme will always fuck you up.

>> No.4126749

These are substitutes for pleasure but are so far far from actual pleasure. Why not try a meaningful existence? Be pro-active, start a relationship, read a good book. I've never found long-term pleasure in these things, only a lonely guilt, anxiety and pain. Sin can be sweet in the beginning but bitter in the end.

>> No.4126754

>>4126736
Why? If you're enjoying it

>> No.4126756

Everything is hedonism whether you like admitting that or not. Think about it.

>> No.4126759

>>4126754
Alcoholics, drug and sex addicts, the list goes on. I shouldn't even have to explain.

>> No.4126760

>>4126759
What if you are someone that manages to handle those things and consistently feel pleased and satisfied?

>> No.4126764

>>4126760
You don't go extreme with anything if you're pleased and satisfied. You can be pleased with the temporary effects, but never satisfied, there always has to be more since immunity and numbness eventually builds up. Then one day boomph, whatever deficiency you tried to compensate for through the addiction ends up blowing up in your face.

>> No.4126768

>>4126749
Then patient and careful pleasure is just your kind of hedonism

>> No.4126770

I think you must eventually come to a point where you realise all of this so called 'pleasure' is completely artificial and you have wasted your time

>> No.4126779

>>4126770
Define artificial and real

What's so real about pleasure from reading a book compared to orgasm?

>> No.4126780

Depends on what you think is hedonism

>> No.4126782

>>4126779
What i'm saying is if you mask your unhappiness with alcohol and other drugs and just suppress whatever your going through with a distraction of partying then you will eventually become non content. Orgasm's are fine ;)

>> No.4126784

wouldn't drugs and alcohol make hedonism more difficult, since theymake it harder to judge whther you're absorbing the inputs of the senses acurately, and can even dull and distort them to where you think you're enjoying something you actually aren't? You could argue that drugs are for people who can't handle hedonism. Supposedly slection moderation and contrast are the secrets to a hedonistic lifestyle, so you don't degenerate into a glutton, sybarite or voluptuary, but maintain your sensual base.

>> No.4126786

from my own experience hedonism simply leads me to the same nihilistic void

>> No.4126787

I flipping love Yes

>> No.4126791

>>4126784
>sybarite or voluptuary
What do these mean?

Dictionary.com just says a person devoted to luxury and pleasure

>> No.4126797

>>4126791
a sybarite is a person who is immersed in, and obsessed with the pleasures of the flesh,with the implication of being something of a dilletante. The voluptuary is basically a sex addict, though there is a suggestion of the conniseur there as well.

>> No.4126817

>>4126784
Very well said

>> No.4126818

>>4126736
Exactly.
Moderation, always.

>> No.4126841

>>4126721
> What is your argument against pure hedonism?
Life of discipline leads to greater pleasure.

>> No.4126873
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4126873

To be a Cyrenaic one can't just go around seeking pleasure in the base sense, but rather one must refine his own ability to understand and find pleasure, and raise his aesthetic senses to most greatly enjoy it.

>> No.4126919

I don't have the money.

>> No.4126937

There are pleasures beyond the present moment.

Hedonism is infantile. I don't mean this in neither bad or good way. It is the way of the child, the dessert before the meal. And it's good. But then you lose your appetite and don't finish your meal and then you are not nourished and you feel bad later but you don't know why. The adult might appear that he is clinging to nearly arbitrary standards on when to eat, on social codes. That is true. But the adult also knows and remembers and is able to take more from certain experiences, because he knows what will lead him with a stomach pain.

Hedonism is great and I consider myself an hedonist in a lot of ways. But this "pure this", "pure that" can go fuck itself. Don't lift up -isms as flags.

>> No.4126939

From a practical standpoint, you can't be enjoying something pleasurable at literally every moment. If you attempt that, you'll either fail miserably at the beginning or you'll become addicted to pleasure to an extent that causes neutrality (lack of pleasure or pain) to be experienced as negative because you're wishing you were doing [insert vice of choice here].

If you're going to be a hedonist, at least be an Epicurean.

>> No.4126941

>Young Simba: But I thought a king can do whatever he wants.
>Mufasa: There's more to being a king than getting your way all the time.

Watch Lion King. Hakuna Matata is not enough. You'll see yourself neglecting a world that needs you, while you are left eating worms.

>> No.4126954

Embracing full-on the "basic pleasures" of life will lead you to an early grave. Besides, the sheer purposelessness of it will crush you sooner or later.

>> No.4127045

My life is very hedonistic and it hasn't made me happy.

>> No.4127060

>pure hedonism
>not even addicted to heroin

>> No.4127063

I have no argument against hedonism, because I consider myself one. I love junk food. But if I kill myself by going overboard and dying from a heart attack, then I have basically failed as a hedonist... I have deprived myself of future pleasure. I seek to maximise pleasure. Not just over the short term, but the long term.

>> No.4127085

The only exploits I get from letting myself go is something I can brag about socially, something that sounds nice. In reality I'm still just as empty inside. It really doesn't beat that makes me feel that it matters that I exist, you know, leave my mark, however small.

>> No.4127123

>>4126721
My argument against it is that pleasure and happiness are distinct. Pleasure is merely a feeling, a sensation. It is caused when you get something that could potentially be used for Good.

Happiness however is not a feeling, but a state of being. It is caused by all of your component parts working together properly. Your mind and body function entirely right, to the good of the entirety.

If you chase after pleasure only, you will inevitably damage your mind and body to the point where pleasure becomes impossible.

Furthermore, as mentioned, it will cause your mind and body to break down, causing them to malfunction.

A pleased man sits on a pile of coke, drinking hookers and fucking beer while listening to dubstep and praising Slaanesh, right up until he dies of overdose, or his high ends and he "comes down", and realizes he feels really, really, really bad, because his mind and body are on the fritz because he poisoned himself.

The happy man controls his appetites, and regulates them. He practices Temperance and the other virtues, and his mind and body benefit, and he is happy because of it.

Virtue is the argument against hedonism.

>> No.4127130

>>4126954
>sheer purposelessness
I think OP is suggesting posters should provide the alternative, because pure hedonism has at least the obvious benefit of providing pleasant sensations.

If you (or anyone here) doesn't have a purposeful alternative, then this is a reasonable default goal.

>>4127063
But you are gambling then, because you have no reasonable guarantee of the reward of a long-life for your moderated activities. Also to put it in simple terms, if you have 10 units of pleasure every day and die at 50, and someone else has 5 units of pleasure every day and dies at 100, then you've had an equally fulfilling pleasure-filled existence (speaking from a purely hedonistic perspective). So why not just go all out? You need a better explanation for the pleasures of long life. Or as the joke goes Vegetarians don't live longer, it just feels like it"

>> No.4127135

That's not what hedonism is. That's the bastardized version that exists today through misinterpretation. But I guess you can just call it hedonism because that's what the vox populi now says it is.

I have no argument against actual hedonism. My argument against your YOLO philosophy is that it isn't a sustainable lifestyle and soon leads to unhappiness.

>> No.4127136

i'm a povo bitch, anxiety, don't like the taste of alcohol, not hot, etc.

i take my pure hedonism via tv/film/lit/music and general apathetic escapism than the physical pleasures.

>> No.4127174

>>4126721

>What is your argument against pure hedonism?

Case studies. Anybody I've known who has tried this (whether consciously or not) has ended miserable and in self-contempt. There is, I think, something the spirit needs that worldly pleasures emulate but cannot replace.

>> No.4127322

It goes against my religion.
I am a christian traditionalist and I am anarchist.

>> No.4127348

>>4126721
It doesn't work. You grow numb and you won't enjoy them any more and the side effects will turn to suffering. Even asceticism is more enjoyable than balls out hedonism in the long run, but the middle way wins out. Simple modest pleasures that don't wreak havoc.

>> No.4127350

>>4126873
That goes against Cyrenaic doctrine. Immediate, simple physical pleasures are preferred.

>> No.4127355

>>4126721
>What is your argument against pure hedonism?

Society could not function and would rapidly degenerate.

>> No.4127363
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4127363

I think Epicurus actually had it right. Maximising pleasure works by living a life of voluntary simplicity without getting caught up in the rat race. Everything else backfires.

>> No.4127364

There's no need to argue against it as the vast majority of people don't want/are unable to live such a life.

>> No.4127367

>>4127322
How does this work since Christ was pretty tolerant of worldly authority? Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's and such.

>> No.4127370

>>4127364
I guess we don't need to argue against raping children either then.

>> No.4127372

>>4126736
Never going to an extreme is an extreme in itself

>> No.4127378

Hedonism is an affirmation of death- hedonism cries out “YES” to death, not life- the hedonist mind believes every minute the soul is slowly dying, and hedonism seeks to better cushion ourselves with pleasure and vacant distractions as we hurtle towards death. Hedonism is really afraid to exploit life, or try anything that could result in pain, lack of pleasure, or suffering. hedonism is disgusting, worse than religion. it's the worst, the most decadent of all replies to existentialism.

>> No.4127383

>>4127045
You're not living your life correctly

>> No.4127385
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4127385

>>4127378
So you're a hedonist in denial.

>implying honourfags don't get into all kinds of trouble because ultimately thinking of themselves as having values brings them more pleasure than considering themselves a hedonist
>implying religious fanatics aren't hedonists who merely find disobedience to God to bring more psychological suffering than yoloism can compensate
>implying all motives aren't hedonism in disguise

>> No.4127391

>>4126736
This. (/thread)
Why does thread continue?

>> No.4127393

>>4127391
Determining extremes requires the establishment of a centre, silly.

>> No.4127394

>>4126760
You can't "manage" it
Yeah you can have a beer once in a while
But if you're drinking for pleasure or because of issues, there's no real end to it, along with any pleasure
You can always drink more, you can always get higher, you can you, can always feel better, you will always crave more
And that road leads to death. I don't mean that in an edgy way, I mean that as in the literal sense that you're just exciting sensory input and the body always recovers and adapts to the point where you will eventually only be able to excite it enough by pushing past your limits. It's self destruction masked as, dare I say it, euphoria

>> No.4127400

>>4127385
That's alot of assumptions and projections condensed in one post

>> No.4127417

hedonism cant make me happy i just wanna be fucking happy

>> No.4127444

>>4127417
>i just wanna be fucking happy
As cliché as it sounds, find a partner who understands you. I'm miserable as fuck between girlfriends, and this is a small excerpt of something I sent today to a girl whose looking for commitment instead of regular sex. It's corny and sentimental, but I meant every word of it:

".. and I adore you. All of you. From the next-day-grumpiness when I keep you up all night, to the freckle on your left shoulder; from the self-less consideration you have for others to, yes, even your taste in films, because I get to watch them with a perfect girl cradled in my arms. You make me happy, but the more I see you and want you and want to be yours, the more the reality of losing you and the hurt that comes with it solidifies as something real. Playing the dangerous game of emotional vulnerability scares me.

It’s all right, though. You are worth the risk. I’m willing to put half of my fragile heart into your hands because I know you'll cherish it as much as I cherish cherish you. When it comes down to it, when the burden of baggage, and the daunting prospect of heartbreak are removed, I’m left with a wonderful girl who drives me absolutely crazy: The good kind of crazy. And I want you too. I want to be with you. I want to hold you, to touch you, to make you smile. To lay in the sand again on a warm beach in the middle of the night while the rest of the world melts away. I want so many adoring smiles that my memory is filled with nothing else. I want you in my arms and in my life and in my heart; and more than anything, I want you to be as happy as you have made me..."

>> No.4127454

>>4126721
Common sense

/thread
tried to sage

>> No.4127462

>>4127130
Well, how about Romantic Idealism? You get to feel good, AND have a meaning to your life, namely, pursuing whichever ideal it is you are drawn to. Only downside is, you actually have to find something you truly believe in first.

>> No.4127488

>>4127444
maybe its because ive never felt that sort of love just the idea of saying that to another person is mortifying all the relatonships ive been in make me feel hollow behind the eyes theres that sort of leap your soul makes when you wake up and remember you're sharing your life with someone but it never last it just slows down into this 'comfortable' grey weird thing youre watching from behind yourself maybe because im so socially retarded i never learnt how to truly be present with someone i dont know life sucks

>> No.4127493

>>4127454
sage still works. it's just invisible now, 'cause moot wants to make it clear that it's not meant to be a downvote.

>> No.4127516

>>4127488
Perhaps you haven't found the right person yet? I've been in some terrible relationships, and definitely know the feeling of waking up next to someone you are just going through the motions with.

> it just slows down into this 'comfortable' grey weird thing youre watching from behind yourself
Yeah, I know this too, but it's preventable. Most relationships start on a lust-based foundation, with the novelty of the other person, and a slightly awkward clumsiness around each other, having some kind of allure. The situation is new and exciting, and the partner is still desirable. This doesn't have to disappear though. In most cases it does: most marriages end in divorce after the honeymoon period wanes and people end up in your predicament; but in the rare cases where the two perfect people are joined, understand that the emotions involved will evolve, and actually communicate about it, it's possible to slip into a deeper understanding of one another, and retain the passion and great sex and adoration for each other had at the start.

>> No.4127530

>>4127493


man fuck moot, who cares what the nips think about it, we've appropriated sage to mean displeasure, so thats how it goes.

>> No.4127553

>>4126779
Stop trying to justificate being a Alpha Minus.

>>4126784
Best post read in a while. 8/10 keep working Anon, you're a good one.

>>4126786
Everything leads to that nihilistic void, but hedonism do that very quickly.

>>4127060
You're right. People smokes pots, gets drunk every weekend and they think that are junkies.

>> No.4127566

empathy kinda killed hedonism for me. can't really take it all that far if you're worried about how other people feel too

>> No.4127568

Hedonism cannot be universalised. It cannot be experienced by all people at the same time therefore is undesirable.

>> No.4127585

>>4127378
I like this post. 7/10

>> No.4127591
File: 363 KB, 841x632, captions.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4127591

>>4127566
>empathy
>2000+13

According to the laws of free market, if you're just selfish enough it will benefit everyone in the long run.

>> No.4127595
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4127595

>>4127591
Do you ever wonder if they lied to us?

>> No.4127601

>>4127530
Apparently not how it goes. Le deal with it! :-)

>> No.4127604

>>4127568
must not orgasm!

>>4127566
Ulitarianism is hedonism with empathy.

>> No.4127612

>>4126756
I'd rather not because thinking about it would be hedonism.

>> No.4127618

OP, maybe you should read about what "hedonism" means when you're not an edgy teenager. It's about reduing pains, not increasing pleasure. One of the most famous quotes about Hedonism would be something along the lines of

"Some bread, water instead of wine, and some friends for the sake of discussion."

>> No.4127623

I get tired. I also sort of think everything is shit.

>> No.4127620

>>4127612
Actually the most effective hedonism isn't concious hedonism. Most people enjoy thinking of themselves as a good person with values and principles while acting selfishly and hedonistically. Murrica has mastered this.

>> No.4127633

>>4127618
That would be Epicureanism and some things like it like Buddhism and such. Sadean Libertinism, Cyrenaicism etc are about the active pursuit of positive pleasure.

>> No.4127642
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4127642

Negative hedonism is literally god tier.

>> No.4127656

>>4127633
Epicureanism and intelligent hedonism tend to meet. Anyone actually thinking about hedonism would end up concluding that the pursuit of many pleasures brings displeasing results and various negative aftermath; a true hedonist would only drink and have sex in moderation, for the sake of pleasure.

>> No.4127687

>>4127656
I agree that it's the most sensible hedonism, but not the only 'true' one. Yoloism is also true by different logic. The Cyrenaics for example didn't recognise any moment but the present as valid.

>> No.4127701

>>4127687
And look where it got them.

>> No.4127703

>>4127687
I would argue that recognizing only the present moment as valid leads one to less hedonism because without fear of the future, the present moment can be enjoyed purely for what it is, without the need for chemical assistance.

>> No.4127709

>>4126760
Unless you die at a young age, you won't be able to maintain pure hedonism for long (for social, economic, and physical reasons ) and will end up with, instead of knowledge and fulfillment, a string of useless, fond memories.

>> No.4127723

>>4127703
*chemical assistance or any other external source of pleasure.

>> No.4127748

if pursuit of basic pleasure is the best way to live, upon birth we should all be put in vats, one tube up the shitter to displace waste and one going down the mouthole for nutrients, and injected with morphine until we die

>> No.4127760

>>4126721
I'm a hedonist, but I don't get much pleasure from alcohol, drugs, and party.

>> No.4127767

>>4127701
Yes. It's also interesting that their school culminated into Hegesias 'le death persuader' of Cyrene who said all pleasure was unsatisfactory shit and that the only thing you can do is avoid pain and that killing yourself is a good idea.

>. Cicero claims that Hegesias wrote a book called Death by Starvation, which persuaded so many people that death is more desirable than life, that Hegesias was banned from teaching in Alexandria.

>> No.4127768

>>4127748
You must now very little about opiates.

>> No.4127773

pleasure != happiness

/thread

>> No.4127776

>>4127773
>my christian opinion is a fact

>> No.4127784

>>4127768
>You must now very little

Anon. Please.

>> No.4127892
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4127892

“Pleasure is never as pleasant as we expected it to be and pain is always more painful. The pain in the world always outweighs the pleasure. If you don't believe it, compare the respective feelings of two animals, one of which is eating the other.”

>> No.4127911

it's bullshit; utilitarianism and hedonism and the like are objectively flawed schools of thought

people have always suffered for a greater good or a greater future (i.e farmers toiling away to provide the tools necessary for one's offspring to escape their pointless life and get an education), which to them is much more pleasurable

>> No.4127928

>>4126770

but isn't everything pointles? Might as well seek maximum pleasure

>> No.4127932

It's too much effort.

>> No.4128108
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4128108

>>4127932
Don't you just enjoy passivity more then?

>> No.4128123

>>4126721
Selfishness necessarily leads to immorality and impaired judgment and critical thinking..

>> No.4128129

>>4126721
You're not going to beat heroin for pleasure, so if I have to choose between being a Franciscan monk and Mark Renton I'm going with the monk.

>> No.4128131

>>4128123
>Selfishness necessarily leads to immorality
Nonsense, it just leads away from morality of altruism. As for impaired judgement, sociopaths judgement is believed to be much clearer that that of the normal person, in the logical sense, simply because it's not affected by empathy. It's not impaired, simply inconvenient

>> No.4128134

>>4127911
>people have always suffered for a greater good or a greater future (i.e farmers toiling away to provide the tools necessary for one's offspring to escape their pointless life and get an education), which to them is much more pleasurable
you're describing the altruist farmer/father. there are a lot of them that don't care about that

>> No.4128137

>>4127773
>dogmatic opinion + /threading his own post.
we have a winner

>> No.4128166

>>4128129
having done the heroin, i'm going to go ahead and stop you right there.

a. heroin is better than living with a bunch of dudes and not having any stuff
and
b. lots of things are better than heroin. like sex. or being good at something

>> No.4128266

>>4126721
>What is your argument against pure hedonism?

People don't know what they want and don't know what will actually make them happy and fulfilled.

>Just full on embracing of the most basic pleasures in life, drugs, alcohol, sex, partying and so on.

Everyone I know who pursues these things seriously is miserable and dysfunctional.

>> No.4128268

>>4128131
>Nonsense, it just leads away from morality of altruism.
Same thing.
>It's not impaired, simply inconvenient
It's both.

>> No.4128901
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4128901

>>4126721


hedonism naturally leads to anti-natalism, which leads to the position that we must first live and prosper so that we can ultimately destroy the universe later, which of course is not consistent. hence, a 'hedonistic' principle can be used to justify any conceivable range of actions, and is thus useless, or worse.

>> No.4128905

>>4127553
>>4127060
im convinced that everyone who has done heroin did it to say they did it. david byrne said something about how he thought it was too strong the one time he tried it. i am gonna trust him.

alcohol is about as dangerous to your body as heroin. was there anyone who ever did heroin who wasnt an ass hole tryhard looking for something to prove. i remember being acquainted with a guy who was talking boastfully about doing it and he was just such a massive douche

>> No.4128906

>>4127444
That is fucking adorable. I wish I had someone to write that too.

>> No.4128912

>>4128901
Also read "Ligotti: The conspiracy against the human race" if not already done.

>> No.4128956

>>4128166
>b. lots of things are better than heroin. like sex. or being good at something

This. After quite a few bumps last night – which were extremely pleasurable, and had me nodding in and out of pure bliss – I can't move or smoke a cigarette today without feeling very sick; and my mouth is still drier than a nun's cunt.

>> No.4128971

>>4127060
A real hedonist would just go ahead and die from an overdose right now, happy and free from the future suffering.

>> No.4128974

>>4128166
>lots of things are better than heroin. like sex

That's not what "Trainspotting" told me!

>> No.4129040

>>4128974
>That's not what "Trainspotting" told me!
If there's one thing that addicts are _really_ good, it's rationalization.

> I fucked up my metabolism and my body cannot function properly without heroin
> Therefore heroin is the best thing ever

(You see the same, but on a smaller scale, with smokers, who often claim how yummy and delicious cigarettes are. Who the fuck are they kidding, cigarettes literally smell like burning feces.)

>> No.4129049

>>4129040
It's more the accepted excuse to get away from people while not be seen as weird that appeals to me. Also smokers tend to be funnier people.

>> No.4129064

>>4127604
>must not orgasm!

Que?

>> No.4129076

>>4127928
If everything's pointless, why seek maximum pleasure? Doesn't that just make it worse?
And this so-called pleasure is usually an excuse to break boundaries that shouldn't be broken. Think of the old cult of Bacchus. In some cases they used to use wine and their religion as a reason to commit all kinds of things they wouldn't otherwise during their festivals.


>>4126721
Also, OP, I don't know if you can call them basic pleasures. The ones you listed are the ones that are considered "immoral" by society. There are many things that make people feel good, but these ones you mentioned are the ones that have a social stigma attached.

Isn't that the argument? It's bad and leads to bad things. Sure, it's oversimplified but it makes some sense.

>>4127378
From my own experience, yes, hedonism is a "Yes" to death. The more I sought pleasure in things I knew were bad for me, the more suicidal I felt.

There is a cost to manage pure hedonism. Also, Crime and Punishment was personally a slow read for me, but since this is /lit/ why not. My memory's fuzzy, but the character Svidrigailov lives by what looked like hedonism. He did everything to get what he wanted, for his own pleasure, and he used hedonism to back it up. I think he said something like what if eternity is a grubby room. Can't remember, but I think he was severely disappointed at one point because he realized he couldn't manipulate the main character's sister. I'm pretty sure this being /lit/ that most of the readers already know and know better how it goes. The point is, it isn't that there aren't people who aren't living lives of pure hedonism. There are, and the reason it doesn't last is that it can't.

Hedonism leads to disappointment and death. Saying this from both personal beliefs and experience.

>> No.4129077

Because empirical observations of *all* humans with access to unlimited amounts of money, many times accompanied by unlimited amounts of fame and achievement and recognition, and who partake in unlimited hedonism: drugs, alcohol, sex, partying, show they all become extremely unhappy and self-destructive in relatively short periods of time, contribute nothing to the progress of humanity, and usually die in ridiculous and humiliating ways.

cf:actors, pro athletes, Elvis Presely, Whitney Houston, Michael Jackson, misc. Kardashians and Miley Cyrus(hopefully soon,) Lindsey Lohan, all celebrities on VH1 etc.

Conversely those who choose or who have imposed extreme lack and scarcity and asceticism and even suffering, are very satisfied with the little they have and contribute greatly to humanity

>> No.4129097

>>4127130
If OP is suggesting posters provide an alternative to hedonism like this anon thinks, here's one. Jesus. I don't really know him that well, but I think he's a good guy once you get to know him. Also, if you ask him for help I hear he's the type to give without asking for stuff in return. I'm not sure I totally believe that, but I ask anyways for help all the time. So, if you want something, ask him? I asked for a bracelet once and got one on a trip that glowed in the dark. I know people might find this offensive, but it works for me.

tl;dr
Jesus can make you happier than hedonism, try it out.

>> No.4130066

>>4126721
We have already killed god. And to bury him we need to become gods ourselves. And we can't do that while eating grass and fucking everything(one) forever.

>> No.4131232

>>4126768
No, hedonism by definition involves sensory pleasure, otherwise we'd all be hedonists. I mean, we all want to be happy/fulfilled, right? Hedonism is the sensory route to fulfillment.

>> No.4131250

>>4126721
http://www.sorenkierkegaard.nl/artikelen/Engels/145.%20THE%20ROTATION%20OF%20CROPS.pdf

Why would you want to be a hedonist when you can be a farmer?