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/lit/ - Literature

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4055688 No.4055688 [Reply] [Original]

Is Meditations the tl;dr of Thus Spoke Zarathustra?

>> No.4055691

Why don't you read both and find out?

>> No.4055706

>>4055691
Which should I read first?

>> No.4055712

>>4055711
Why?

>> No.4055711

>>4055706
Aurelius

>> No.4055715

>>4055712
Better,

>> No.4055716

>>4055712
Alphabetically prior to Nietzsche

>> No.4055719

>>4055712
It was written more than five years before Nietzsche wrote Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

>> No.4055734

Something about OP annoys me profoundly
10/10 would rage again

>> No.4055756

>>4055712
avoid spoilers

>> No.4055772

Should I read Atlas Shrugged after these?

>> No.4055774

>>4055772
>>>/fuck off/

>> No.4055784

>>4055772
no, if you want to be a ruthless capitalist read a book that speaks about that instead of marysue literature or broken philosophy

>> No.4055809
File: 66 KB, 713x485, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4055809

10/10 I am upset.

>> No.4055836

>>4055809
>no one knows my true alignment......

gay

>> No.4055851 [DELETED] 

>>4055772
yes, it's an excellent piece on not being a lib manchild, just don't take it too seriously past that

>> No.4055852

>>4055784
Can you recommend one?

>> No.4055869 [DELETED] 

>>4055772
it's catcher in the rye for people in their early 20s. one tells you it's ok to be different, the other one teaches you how to be a man of character. a must for anyone in their college years so as to escape the liberal propaganda that will undoubtedly turn you into a effeminate government sucking feminist tit, and instead become a self-sufficient man's man as your genes dictate, free of corrupting forces of the today's corrupted environment the society will provide you. it's as important as it ever was.

>> No.4055871

>>4055772
it's catcher in the rye for people in their early 20s. one tells you it's ok to be different, the other one teaches you how to be a man of character. a must for anyone in their college years so as to escape the liberal propaganda that will undoubtedly turn you into a effeminate government sucking feminist tit, and instead become a self-sufficient man's man as your genes dictate, free of corrupting forces of the today's society. it's as important and relevant as it ever was.

>> No.4055874

Stoicism is very much a dying philosophical outlook in the modern day. People really don't take well to hardship or responsibility. Meditations is a very important book in this regard because it gives a window on a time were living your life by a set of virtues was a reward in itself.

You should read Yourcenar's Memoirs of Hadrian in conjunction with Meditations by the way. At times, I almost felt as if it were a real memoir, it's written so well, and the fact that it's addressed to Marcus Aurelius helps to give you some clue as to the historical forces that shaped MA's stoic lifestyle.

>> No.4055892

>>4055871
>one tells you it's ok to be different,
wow, missing the point

not going to comment on rand because i haven't read her at all but
>forces of the today's society
like this if you are too a 90s kid ^_^

>> No.4055931

>>4055892
Can you be even edgier you cunt. If you have nothing to contribute shut it.

>> No.4055939

is Meditations worth reading if i've read Epictetus' Discourses? I've read someone say that Aurelias is like a dumbed down Epictetus, not that one person is worth trusting but I don't want to read it if it's too much like the other.

hopefully my post doesn't come off as igorant

>> No.4055951

>>4055874
>You should read "Memoirs of Hadrian" by some French bint in 1950.

Hahahaha, no thanks, bro. Hahah. Will read the Aurelius, though.

>> No.4055956

>>4055939
>is Meditations worth reading if i've read Epictetus' Discourses? I've read someone say that Aurelias is like a dumbed down Epictetus, not that one person is worth trusting but I don't want to read it if it's too much like the other.

I've read both in a few different translations. Bear in mind that the books were for two different purposes. Marcus's was a reminder book, to keep certain ideas in the fore and for him to remember them daily.

Epictetus was (as you know) a teacher teaching a class.

In that regard, it's disingenuous to say Aurelius is a "dumbed down Epictetus." While Aurelius does quote Epictetus heavily, the intention is different.

Also, Epictetus is more caustic than Aurelius. There's something soft and keen about "Meditations".

>> No.4055961

>>4055939
It's not dumbed down but different. Epictetus is more of a stout hardline father in that if you are being unvirtuous, "stop it right now" whereas Aurelius has more of a Buddhist flow to his method in that in seeing yourself being unvirtuous, recognise it for what it is and let it go without forcing it, as forcing it will only give it more hold over you.

>> No.4055966

>>4055961
killing yourself psychologically over being unvirtuous is one of the feels i dont want to ever feel again

>> No.4056000

>>4055966

If it's really killing you psychologically, it can't be true virtue anyway.

>> No.4056014

>>4056000
>implying true virtue exists

>> No.4056015

>>4055939
Both have their own merit. Epictetus is more a hard teacher telling you what to strive for, while Aurelius is softly coercing you to your own conclusions about things. Their respective titles reflect how they go about their 'teachings'. Epictetus' collective quotes are gathered under the name 'Encheuridion' which means much like instruction manual (cheir meaning hand). Aurelius' teachings are gathered under the name 'Ta heis heauton' meaning 'the things you say to yourself'. Read Aurelius, you won't regret it.

>> No.4056046

>>4055951
Your loss. It's probably the greatest example of historical fiction in existence. There's no politics or reflections on contemporary society if that's what you're worried about.
There's even some Jew bashing near the end if that's your thing.

>> No.4056182

What Epictetus edition should I read?

>> No.4056200

>>4055871
Faulkner and Beckett thought that Catcher in the Rye was a masterpiece.

>> No.4056204

so what's the best translation of Aurelius?

>> No.4056207

read aurelius over and over until you die

>> No.4056220

>>4055688
>Is Meditations the tl;dr of Thus Spoke Zarathustra?
0/10
But if you are serious, you should read the third chapter of TSZ.

>> No.4056383

Nietzsche said to live according to nature like a stoic is retarded as fuck because how can you not live according to nature.

>> No.4056392

>>4056383
Nietzsche's view of Nature was coming from a pantheistic point of view instead of panentheistic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism

>> No.4056430
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4056430

Which translation of Meditations is the best?

>> No.4056496

>>4056392
No it wasnt.

>> No.4056499

>>4056430
I have a copy of The Emperor's Handbook. Its just meditations put into more modern language. Kind of like a "new king james" version of the bible.

I've also read an older copy that i found on some ivy league university's website. They are both good reads. You don't lose the message.

>> No.4056516

>>4056430
Why is that list 8/21 Russian?

>> No.4056519

>>4056430
The Gregory Hays translations in OP is pretty great.

>> No.4056521

>>4055939
Epictetus is closer to Holden Caulfield, so yeah.

>> No.4056523

>>4056430
The Penguin edition, by Legge if I can recall

>> No.4056810
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4056810

>>4055961

Wtf, no. Enchridion is a gathering of principles that students are meant to memorize, and it was for that purpose that the book was made.

Meditations are the stoic exercise made by Marcus, that applies the maxims contained in the Enchridion (because moral virtues need to be practised, and the exercises strengthen that practice; the book was made in maxims so that they are easier to memorize).

Check the stoic exercises.

>> No.4056876

How does Stoicism differ from Nietzsche's ubermensch?

>> No.4056924

>>4056876
The Ubermensch (mind you: in Nietzsche's eyes it is purely a goal to which human beings ought to strive) is one who has transcended the dichotomy of Good/Evil and creates ones own values. The Stoic adopts the rigid value system of Epictetus and the dichotomy of Good/Evil, then lives ones life by those rules.

>> No.4058045

>>4056924
How can one create their own values separate from good/evil? I don't understand.

Also, is either Stoicism or Nietzsche's philosophy one which a person could live by, or are they more interesting things to think about?

>> No.4058212

>>4058045
i don't know if it's possible to be stoic in a political way nowadays, specially with all the knowledge of corruption we have now

>> No.4058221
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4058221

You can read both chapter-wise, you can even take on the chapters randomly. But Nietzsche's prose is god-like, and he is a visionary, Marcus Aurelius was not.

>> No.4058231

>>4055772
Atlas Shrugged is idiotic compared to these.
Better the "Book of Five Rings" or "The Art of War".

>> No.4058255
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4058255

How about Macchiavelli's "The Prince" ?

>> No.4058258

>>4055874
Stoicism was a dying outlook in its own day. Stoicism itself is the sort of pessimistic philosophy Nietzsche warned about. And what is the philosophy itself? Late Romans gathering the scraps of lost Greeks for the sake of morals—not, as early Stoicism had it, for the betterment of the community.

>> No.4058265

>>4058258
*not for the betterment of the community, but for individual moral consistency
one should keep Christian morality especially in mind both in relation to Nietzsche and to Romans, here

>> No.4058300

>>4058255
that cover picture looks really nice, any idea who is the artist?

>> No.4058354

>>4055874
>People really don't take well to hardship or responsibility

Said the 18-year old person. Man people these days.

>> No.4058360
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4058360

>>4058300
No. Here's another, same book. Currently in print.

>> No.4058371
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4058371

>>4058258
durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
stocisism owns biotch. fuck ur shit

>> No.4058389

Seconding approval of that Hays translation; it's great. Just read it, OP.

>> No.4058391

I have the harvard classics with Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius all in the same book. Feels good man.

>> No.4058420

Sure is pol in here (and I'm from /pol/)

>> No.4058429

I recommend the George Long translation.

>> No.4058475

>>4058221
Nope, he was just a ruler of the greatest empire ever to exist on earth. Pales in comparison to Nietzsche.

>> No.4058487

>>4055688
That has to be one of the dumbest statements i've read on /lit/.

>> No.4058597
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4058597

A digital copy of The Emperor's Handbook translated by Hicks & Hicks, have anyone?