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/lit/ - Literature

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4000533 No.4000533 [Reply] [Original]

Well /lit/, I'm just back from a typical drunken night out with my friends. However, something occurred to me tonight, and now as I write this I swear to God I'm this close to killing myself.

Everything nowadays is so steeped in irony and parody etc. that it becomes impossible to distinguish any true feelings. The fact that the mere mention of the word "feelings" implies a weakness or "cop out" of some kind sort of proves my pint. Why are true feelings so frowned upon? The word "cool" by definition means an ironic detachment to the emotions within a given circumstance, but what value is "coolness" if the majority of people already feel this way?

Why are "feelings" seen as "gay" in contemporary culture?

>> No.4000544

>>4000533

you sound like a shitty david foster wallace bro

>> No.4000542

point*

>> No.4000554

So you're going to kill yourself because you think people will make fun of you if you're sad?

Well, that's pretty stupid but I'm not stopping you.

>> No.4000558

>>4000544
I'm drunk, cut me some slack.

I didn't even know what DFW meant until tonight

>> No.4000571

>>4000533
I really dislike the subject of feelings. When someone seems to have something going on emotionally, I feel like it's just abnormal, and why won't just be normal. Maybe I'm irregular and have a repressed thought dealing with emotional detachment.

This probably didn't help OP and possibly made it worse: the truth tho

>> No.4000581

>>4000533
just dont care about what "contemporary culture" cares about its really actually pretty easy once you start

>> No.4000589

>>4000533
>“The next real literary “rebels” in this country might well emerge as some weird bunch of anti-rebels, born oglers who dare somehow to back away from ironic watching, who have the childish gall actually to endorse and instantiate single-entendre principles. . . . Real rebels, as far as I can see, risk disapproval. The old postmodern insurgents risked the gasp and squeal: shock, disgust, outrage, censorship, accusations of socialism, anarchism, nihilism. Today’s risks are different. The new rebels might be artists willing to risk the yawn, the rolled eyes, the cool smile, the nudged ribs, the parody of gifted ironists, the “Oh how banal.” To risk accusations of sentimentality, melodrama. Of overcredulity. Of softness. Of willingness to be suckered by a world of lurkers and starers who fear gaze and ridicule above imprisonment without law. Who knows. ”

Be the rebel. Risk ridicule, but create something. It is okay to feel.

>> No.4000590

>The word "cool" by definition means an ironic detachment to the emotions within a given circumstance, but what value is "coolness"

I always thought "cool" meant genuine emotional balance, calm openess to things and ability to ponder things rationally. The more I know.


>>4000558
In context, your concern makes sense. But mind that there's a difference between having feelings and voicing them. You should apply some Epicurean discipline to yourself.

>> No.4000594

It's pretty disturbing, I'll admit. I think a lot about the efforts I'll have to go through to write something meaningful to people with the handicap of my own emotions. It's not like I want to pander, but I do think that the state of society isn't something to fervently wish to end but something to try and get underneath and uproot, and that takes compromise.

In the end, though, be you and fuck the rest.

>> No.4000595

>>4000571
>>4000571
The thing is, people like you are actually the majority nowadays, whereas in the past you would have been the hip and cool ironic folks. But you can't be hip if everybody is on your side.

>> No.4000596

>>4000533
>Well /lit/, I'm just back from a typical drunken night out with my friends.
WOW you are so special and must be so popular! No one here ever does that!

>However, something occurred to me tonight, and now as I write this I swear to God I'm this close to killing myself.
Oh no Timmy, don't do it! What will you fellow student council peers think?

>Everything nowadays is so steeped in irony and parody etc. that it becomes impossible to distinguish any true feelings. The fact that the mere mention of the word "feelings" implies a weakness or "cop out" of some kind sort of proves my pint. Why are true feelings so frowned upon? The word "cool" by definition means an ironic detachment to the emotions within a given circumstance, but what value is "coolness" if the majority of people already feel this way?
Congratulations, you are know entering the age of New Sincerity! We've been going on quite a while, and just about to get moving and work- say, where were you this long while?

>Why are "feelings" seen as "gay" in contemporary culture?
Because you watch television (particularly sports) and play video games.

>> No.4000603

>>4000589

Thank you for voicing this. It's very refreshing to see someone who understands the merit in the banal and sentimental in this day and age. I think your quote is right, and paired with the often voiced opinion of authors that a writer must always rebel, it's my responsibility as one to be ridiculed for the sake of perhaps allowing people to feel again.

99 times out of 100, I'd be discouraged in a thread like this.

>> No.4000605

Everyone wants to be respected by their critics, so they dress up how they want them to.

>> No.4000606

>>4000596
>New Sincerity
Can you please list some books from this movement?

>> No.4000608

>>4000606
>and just about to get moving and work-

I don't really believe it has produced any works yet.

Maybe Taipei, but it still has enough satire and irony to be considered apart of the 'avant-garde' post-modernism/modernism.

>> No.4000611

>>4000608
a part*

>> No.4000616

>>4000608
Is Taipei legitimately worth reading, or is it just a joke around here? Is DFW, Pynchon, Roth, or DeLillo worth reading? Which?

>> No.4000617

>>4000596
I recognise you, tripfag, and this post is pretty consistant with your inability to comprehend wtf anybody is actually talking about/. Get a clue.

>>4000589
The fear I have is that to revert back to a more "genuine" sensibility is to be seen as DOUBLE ironic, which is exactly what I don't want. I'm not sure there's a next step, I just really really wish is was clear to me what it was.

Such is life, I guess.

>> No.4000621

>>4000617

We're at a historical turning point right now, don't you see it? YOU have to create that step.

>> No.4000625

>>4000616

No one ever entertains my honest approaches to it on this board, but I'd say it's worth it. I finished it at a slow pace within 3 days, so it's pretty fucking bite-sized, and in my humble opinion it's one of the most immediately sincere things I've written in a long time. Lin continually puts quotes around simple ideas and actions to stress a type of meta-irony, which I think a lot of people take as being ironic or hipster but I think he's really trying to show contempt for his generation in a way that's really inspiring.

>> No.4000628

>>4000625

>I've written

I know what this looks like, but I swear to god that was an honest accident. Oh lawd, everyone is gonna jump on this now.

>> No.4000632

>>4000533
because all biological life is darwinian

>> No.4000634

>>4000628
It is too late for damage control, Tao.

>> No.4000638

>>4000621
It's hard to make that step when it's already been fucking defined by a term that literally denotes an impossibility to go beyond i.e post-modernism.

I have so many problems with that term.

>> No.4000640

>>4000616
>Is Taipei legitimately worth reading, or is it just a joke around here?

I think it is, but you need to have an open mind about it and don't be going in thinking he's trying to compete with the post-modern/difficult guys just because he is sometimes grouped with them.

>Is DFW, Pynchon, Roth, or DeLillo worth reading? Which?

Yes: Pynchon

Maybe: DeLillo, Roth

No: DFW

>>4000617

>Lin continually puts quotes around simple ideas and actions to stress a type of meta-irony, which I think a lot of people take as being ironic or hipster but I think he's really trying to show contempt for his generation in a way that's really inspiring.

Wow good idea don't think I have really thought of this.

>>4000625
>>4000628
>I've written
I know it's you Tao. Please go to sleep.

>> No.4000641

>>4000533
Because emotions are weak points in your armour, and in the wild the weak are killed and eaten.

Do you think because you own a cellphone and can read you've transcended the animal instinct?

>> No.4000644
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4000644

Why do you need contemporary culture to validate your feelings?

Additionally, the irony emulating DFW while being like "Nooooo! Authenticity..."

>> No.4000645
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4000645

>>4000617
>pretty consistant with your inability to comprehend wtf anybody is actually talking about/. Get a clue.

>> No.4000657
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4000657

Do whatever you feel like. If following society is making you suicidally depressed, not following society might work.

>> No.4000659

>>4000640
How should I go about bridging my gap in reading? I'm just reading Dostoevsky. What should I read after that to appreciate and understand Pynchon and company?

>> No.4000662

Jesus fucking Christ. Be your own person, or accept not being your own person and this whole problem goes away. I think the human soul can't survive without problems.

>> No.4000663

>>4000533
Silly americans I really have a hard time understanding your affected detachment and how you can think it's hip or unhip or abnormal.

How can you be troubled by experiencing emotions? You don't chose what to experience, feelings are spontaneous, they are part of the world and come to you in the same way you smell. Naturally you can control them, but you can't blame yourself for feeling in the same way you can't blame yourself for smelling a fart.

Get over it.

>> No.4000676

>>4000644
>>4000657
>>4000662
>>4000663
Guise, the problem isn't to do with my identity, it's about fitting in to the outside world.

Also,
>thinks I'm American
I'm not

>> No.4000681

>>4000659
Read Joyce and Kafka (if you haven't), specifically there big works like Ulysses and The Trial. Maybe some Camus. Then try The Crying of Lot 49, then V., then tackle Gravity's Rainbow. If you finish GR and dig it, you're ready for whatever else the late 20th century can throw at you.

>> No.4000682

As a Stoicist, I find negative feelings to be extremely gay.

>> No.4000683

>>4000659
You could start with a novel written by Thomas Pynchon!

>> No.4000685

>>4000681
forgot le trip also >their

>> No.4000686

>>4000676
Ok then; fit in or accept that you don't/can't. Is this really hard?

>> No.4000688

This thread is an exercise in circle-jerking shame. But that's okay. That's what we need.

>> No.4000690

>>4000663

Are you Remy Marathe?

>> No.4000696

>>4000686
If you think that not being able to fit in is a trivial issue, then yeah.

I, however, am not autistic

>> No.4000697

>>4000690
Oh my god he is.

>> No.4000701
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4000701

>>4000628
It's ok, we know you're not Tao.

I am

>> No.4000704

>>4000701
I cannot wait until Taipei 2:The Streets of Brooklyn

>> No.4000709

>>4000704
The streets of twitter, single at 30*

>> No.4000711

>>4000709
I would kill myself if this was actually published.

>> No.4000712

>>4000690
Now I feel obliged to read the endless scottish play

>> No.4000713

>>4000701
is anyone developing sort of a crush on Tao Lin? idk.... (no homo)

he's just really nice

>> No.4000717

Taipei is good and definitely worth reading. I'm not sure it's better than his other stuff but it's most certainly good.

>>4000713
I've had a crush on him for a while, I tried to hang out with him after his reading at my work on the Taipei book tour but it didn't work out.

>> No.4000718

>>4000712
Whodawhat? Is that a pun of the title via synonyms or metonyms?

>> No.4000720

>>4000696

NOOOO! Muh problems are significant and give my life fragile meaning. Please take them seriously. I don't fit in guys. I'm a snowflake. A precious little snowflake that would melt in the cruel, cruel blaze of society.

Of not FITTING IN. My God. It's almost like if I didn't have a pre-planned place in society and accept everything that I perceive to be in the cultural mainstream that I'd just cease to exist. Oh the torment. The angst. The ah-ngst

Sorry. (Autism.)

You either keep indulging in self-torture, kill yourself, accept, or change your beliefs.

>> No.4000724

All issues are potentially trivial.

>> No.4000728

>>4000720
>replies with parody
>proves my point

>> No.4000734

>>4000701
http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/bw/bw130801tao_lin_taipei

Well done, me.
Oops I mean: well done, Tao.

hehe

>> No.4000735

>>4000718
Silence! It is bad luck to say the name of the endless scottish play on the internet!

>> No.4000740

>>4000735
I haven't done it yet, Remy. I will carry out your even-numbered betrayals to the end... Oh shit, I mean odd!

>> No.4000743

>>4000717
Ru grill?!?

>> No.4000747

Goddamnit where is sunhawk when we need him.

>> No.4000759

>>4000743
Yes.

>> No.4000766

>>4000759
uh oh

/how was the reading?

>> No.4000769

>>4000734
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2BJSV8Q1Yw

I bet he wrote about wanting to bang this girl in one of his books, or did actually bang her.

>> No.4000775

>>4000766
Good, I liked it. We hung out a little beforehand and I offered him cake but he had just eaten cake, literally while in the store prior to talking to me and my coworkers, so he didn't take any. He was cute while reading.

>> No.4000780

i thought sentimentality and earnestness was hip now, cynicism reserved for 4chan and fags like david spade and that guy from house

>> No.4000792
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4000792

>>4000713
I've always had a crush on him

>>4000711
>

>> No.4000803

>>4000792
...

>> No.4000806

>>4000775
>he had just eaten cake

Tao you sly dog you

>> No.4000813

>>4000743
Go to bed

>>4000780
Nah, cynicism is reserved for *reddit* and *friends* like Louis C.K. and that guy from house. 4chan is for angry 19~ year old stormfront psuedo-sociopathic misanthropes. Sentimentality and earnestness is the next big thing.

>> No.4000816

>>4000683
Which one?

Am I missing out on understanding if I skip Kafka and Joyce?

>> No.4000821

>>4000803
"if u believe u are in a maze u instantly gain purpose" - Tao Lin

>> No.4000824

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W26R6Vz9pU
Autism general? Anybody?

>> No.4000828

>>4000816
The Crying of Lot 49, like I said: >>4000681

>Am I missing out on understanding if I skip Kafka and Joyce?

Lol yes, Kafka for the surrealism/absurdism and Joyce for the Stream of Consciousness, Encyclopedic structure, and wordplay.

>> No.4000830

>>4000813
Celebes I've seen you around and you sound about 18-19 yourself.

Get out while you can.

>> No.4000833

>>4000813
Celebes, you and I have clashed in the past and I generally don't trust tripfags, but I have to say that contextually speaking I admire your ardor on this topic and feel like you and I are simpatico on this "next big thing". I hope you aren't sickened by my sincerity.

Do you write?

>> No.4000837

>>4000596
>2superior4me

>> No.4000856

>>4000824
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W26R6Vz9pU
>gd'reed

The virgin is palpable.

>> No.4000882

>>4000830
I am and that's why I am familiarity with the 4chan demographic

>>4000833
>I hope you aren't sickened by my sincerity.
It's very with the times, actually!

>Do you write?
Yes. I am planning a quick, humble novella, then a novel that would be a 'post-modern contribution' but more so a testament to sincerity and a rejection of the 20th century's chaotic and 'nihilistic' mind, and then a novel that would fully express my ideas and aesthetic message; a fully 'sincere era' work.

Leibniz being my main influence.

>> No.4000887

>>4000837
No, not superior. Just a little further ahead :)

>> No.4000904

>>4000828
Where does stuff like the Satanic Verses and All the Pretty Horses fit into this? I've read those already, and I'm looking for more stuff like that. After a day of reading those, it feels like it changes my thought patterns.

>> No.4000914

>>4000882

That's cool, man. Got anything in that sincere vein to share?

>> No.4000919

>>4000882
>planning out your entire oeuvre ahead of time

>> No.4000924

why are "straight" boys so scared of being "gay" is really the question you should be asking yourself.

>> No.4000946

>>4000904
>the Satanic Verses
a little bit postmodern and somewhat surrealist (Rushdie says he aligns with the surrealists.)

>All the Pretty Horses
Cormac is sort of a continuation of early Joyce (not just cause he is Irish) and kind of a conservative (1800s) American stylist, I'd say.

>>4000914
The Monadology + the ninth symphony + ancient literature + some thoughts on the current state of physics and cosmology = my thoughts, don't ask me how to explain that further. If you combine all of those and think about it, it should come (I think)

>>4000919
That's not my entire oeuvre. That's my segue into creating (helping to create)a movement and readying my voice.

>> No.4000953

>>4000924
fuck you fab

>>4000904
shit I thought you were talking about Sincerity.

That would be like, a step below Pynchon, but still good.

>> No.4000954

>>4000946
Well, I dislike sincerity, so I won't buy your books. Sorry.

>> No.4000968

>>4000946
I don't see how those tie in with an intimate erasure of postmodernism, though. What specifically points to your sentimentalism?

>> No.4000973

>>4000968
Or sincerity, rather*

>> No.4000985

>>4000953
Does that kind of thing give me the necessary background to 'get' Pynchon or Tao Lin?

Also, what else is like Salman Rushdie? Or, who else has a really unique style like him or McCarthy?

>> No.4000992

>>4000954
>Well, I dislike sincerity
have fun reading Derrida and Pynchon

>>4000968
postmodernism is obsessed with irony (opposite of sincerity), the school of resentment, and the removal of grand narratives, therefore maintaining the idea that 'the western canon' exists or that the 'human' exists or that the universe being deterministic/optimistic would be offensive to postmodernism's core beliefs.

>> No.4001000

>>4000985
It would help, but you should really read Kafka and Joyce before Pynchon..

Salman Rushdie - uh I don't know, Beckett? I'm not so familiar with Rushdie. Maybe a mix with 20th century British authors and Pynchon even.

>> No.4001058

>>4000992

How does one balance unironic viewpoints with not having a grand narrative? I feel like if all of postmodernism's various works were written in a sincere voice it would be probably be viewed by the average reader as garbage or Hallmark-y.

Would you say Mario Incandenza perhaps represents this kind of postmodern but unironic character? I would.

>> No.4001076

>>4001058
>How does one balance unironic viewpoints with not having a grand narrative?

Nah I said the ironic postmodern reject the grand narrative, but the sincere would need to embrace it.

I may be misinterpreting your post, though.

>>4001058
>Mario Incandenza perhaps represents this kind of postmodern but unironic character?
I haven't read Infinite Jest yet

The whole book seems like that kind of.

>> No.4001083

>>4000571
Dude I know this 4chan but you just described autism

>> No.4001109

>>4001076

Yes, but it needs to be different somehow. That is my point. That whatever we do isn't just a rote repeat of what postmodernism was denying. It's gotta be, like, a compromise, I feel. Because there are aspects of postmodernism that I really like, such as the multifaceted subjectivity of it. I think that can be reconciled easily with sincerity, by all the characters perhaps interacting in ironic or preconditioned ways but personally holding on to their own judgments and severe dysphoria with the irony of others.

>> No.4001126

>>4001076
>>4001109

People fighting PoMo are reactionaries at this point. You guys are on the wrong side of history. Your allies are religious fundamentalists, neo-athiests, Fukuyamaists, etc. Since the enlightenment compels us to examine rationality itself, this fragments thought and stops any meta-narrative. The only way to go back is some sort of cataclysm that reduces civilization to pre-enlightment thinking. Even if you are successful capitalism will commodify it instantly rendering it uncool to youth culture.

>> No.4001127

>>4000992
Do you feel that the universe is optimistic or that optimism should be practiced more than pessimism? I guess I don't see postmodernism as a problem, or its interests as things that necessarily need to be moved past, or maybe I'm not quite grasping what you're trying to say with your "new sincerity" idea.

>> No.4001129

That's bullshit OP.
I suppress my feelings for entirely different reasons.
Nothing to get suicidal about.
At least we all have the internet as a small outlet of self-expression.

>> No.4001139

>>4001083
Autism is more complex than that. It's a very puzzling medical issue. Sorry for being picky, but since this is the first time I see the word used in a non-offensive fashion (to describe rather than insult) I thought I had to make that clear.

>> No.4001148

>>4001126

That's a fair argument, but I (being anon of the two you replied to) don't entirely disagree with PoMo. I think that it's honestly a good approach to narrative structure and expression. However, I do believe it's perhaps hand in hand with a lack of sincerity and an excess of irony that I don't like. Perhaps what's arguably the pop-culture side of the equation at this point, as your comment about commodity points out. You have to realize, though, that the true rebellion here lies in being unhip. It's a kind of reverse of the entire hipster-ism that's infected modern culture to the point today where it's at most glorified and at the least tolerated. Emotionally, it's what's creating to an extent a purposeful sociopathy that I believe destroys humanism in a big way.

>> No.4001149

>>4001109
the compromise is easy. we just acknowledge that there aren't grand narratives outside us, but recognize that it doesn't matter if there is a grand narrative outside us, because our personal narratives which shape our worldviews are our grand narratives in a way

everyone has their own grand narratives

>> No.4001155

>>4001109
>such as the multifaceted subjectivity of it
>by all the characters perhaps interacting in ironic or preconditioned

Holy shit, this is exactly how I feel. The Monadology says that the universe is just like a "city viewed from different directions appears entirely different and, as it were, multiplied prospectively, in just the same way it happens that, because of the infinite multitude of simple substances, there are, as it were, just as many different universes, which are, nevertheless, only perspectives on a single one[.]"

And then to express this idea I was going to have a postmodern-sized cast of characters, but all acting and inter-exchanging in a relational and deterministic fashion.

>>4001126
Not so much fighting as utilizing and exhausting it. It was helpful to an extent but for the sake of humanity this nihilism, immaturity, and irresponsibility needs to end.

>The only way to go back is some sort of cataclysm that reduces civilization to pre-enlightment thinking.
Well, that would be pleasant.

>Even if you are successful capitalism will commodify it instantly rendering it uncool to youth culture.
It probably would but I'm not trying to protest against the Vietnam war, I'm trying to make a metahpysical statement. The people who matter will recognize it as something deeper than a product and realize that that's just an unfortunate result of living in our times.

>> No.4001160

>>4001155
>this nihilism, immaturity, and irresponsibility needs to end
You said you're 18 or 19, right? You are such a kid.

>> No.4001167

>>4001160
>You are such a kid.
Wouldn't that sound non-kiddish? Isn't the joke around here that teenagers are existential crisis babies and nihilist pussies?

>> No.4001171

>>4001167
You're the flipside of that coin, I hope you can realize and understand that.

>> No.4001180

>>4001149
>>4001155

My angle on this whole PoMo thing reconciled with a sincere yearning for relational meaning is simple:

Postmodernism is the atomization of a worldly perspective, a sort of inventory-taking of every imaginable viewpoint.

It is often, however (and unfortunately), tainted by an all-too-easy vessel of approach, irony. Irony is a way of looking at all of those atoms and smirking, saying "Oh yeah? They would be defined as such." and wiping them clear off the table. It's deconstructing subjectivity and then destroying it. It had its use when society needed it, perhaps in the 50s and 60s, but now it's become out of control and it's so permeated modern culture that no one realizes that we're fucking autolyzing ourselves.

>> No.4001183

>>4001171
flipside of the
>existential crisis babies and nihilist pussies
coin? In which case: that's why I am wondering if that would be non-kid-ish

>> No.4001185

>>4001171

AND YOU SIR, are on the EDGE. Gimme more of dat edge, Edgy Mcgee.

#"TaoLin"Rekt

>> No.4001202

>>4001183
Not particularly. You're seeing it as a very simple, black-and-white issue, wherein "postmodernist ideology" is something you need to work against, and your concept of "new sincerity" is the solution. Postmodernism is more than irony and depressing satire, you know. Besides, your "new sincerity" is already something that's happening; see: metamodernism.

What really tipped me off to you being immature is your response of "well, that would be pleasant" to an idealized 'cataclysmic event'. You're exactly as edgy as Nietzsche-loving teens, just in a different way.

>>4001185
Sure.

>> No.4001206

>>4001202

Dontcha think it's kinda ironic that you point out his thinking as black and white and you just analogized him as being part of a coin? As in two faces? Just saying. I don't wholly disagree with you, or him. Or the opposite.

>> No.4001212

>>4001180
I've only slept eight hours over the past two days, so I don't completely understand what you're getting at, but I think I get the general gist of it, and I'd just like to say I agree, and honestly the cancer killing america is this sort of nihilistic fetish for objectivity. it's in neoliberalism, telling us everything needs to reduce to markets and monies, it's in fedoras attacking religion on the basis of the fact that it's not scientific, it's in a huge amount of people who shit on virtually everything because nothing can be externally validated.

what people fundamentally want is god, outside ourselves, to serve as an original origin of value and truth, when there is none. and seeing none, they either shun the idea of both those concepts or reify them in stupid shit.

>>4001202
metamodernism is a copout, we need a more powerful synthesis
something that thinks artifice is not a detriment to sincerity, but a tool for it, that thinks the constructed is not opposite the valid, but the only truly valid

>> No.4001215

>>4001212
>something that thinks artifice is not a detriment to sincerity, but a tool for it, that thinks the constructed is not opposite the valid, but the only truly valid
But that's exactly what postmodernism is. Are you drunk?

>> No.4001224

>>4001212

Metamodernism is a good synthesis in my book because it's a flexible one. You want to create something metamodern that focuses on artifice? Then you've created an ironic metamodern conceit. All it does is ignore that either postmodernism or modernism are correct. For you, it can be a way of laughing at what you love, and loving it more because you're able to make fun of it. It can bear absurdity to any degree.

>> No.4001228

>>4001202
Binaries are seemingly impossible to avoid, unless you do the Hegelian thesis vs. antitheses = synthesis, which is really what I am doing.

>Besides, your "new sincerity" is already something that's happening

Yeah, and it's called "new sincerity":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_sincerity

it's new is all I was saying.

>to an idealized 'cataclysmic event'
Oh, I didn't mean that to the event, I meant that to the "reduces civilization to pre-enlightenment thinking" part, which I think would be good in a way, getting us back to the renaissance/medieval/ancient ontology and their idea of centering art upon aesthetics.

>> No.4001232

>>4001215
This, I was confused when I read that as well.

>> No.4001239
File: 113 KB, 850x638, 9cbc897cc.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4001239

>>4000533
Living in a culture of satire is our masking of honest expression; while expressed feelings are exaggerated, sensational, and hyperbole–tools of the unhinged manic.

A means of combating this, is to live a life of reserved and unabashed honesty–a "coolness" as it were, but not a as prick.

Cry when you must. Rage when you must. But for the love of god, don't sensationalise it for the draw of the crowd.

. . . or like, "whatever man."

In my preference, I like it when the detached cool person is so over come by an emotion that the nonchalant cast cracks and he/she becomes expressive. It gives over to true honesty. The person who swings emotion all around the scale freely, leaves me with doubt as to his/her honesty.

>> No.4001245

>>4001228
Yeah, see, I don't think we can see eye-to-eye on this, at least not right now. You seem to want a regression to something like classical modernism, which is awful, in my opinion.

>> No.4001244

>>4001228
>centering art upon aesthetics.
>implying
the dominant art trends of the next few decades will be revolutionary and political, and that is a very good thing

wanting art to go backwards is for sixteen year old dadrockers

>> No.4001246

>>4001244
>and that is a very good thing
>wanting art to go backwards is for sixteen year old dadrockers

everything that's wrong with literature and the art world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aestheticism

>> No.4001247

>>4001245
>regression to something like classical modernism
Farther back. Like, Homer and Dante.

>> No.4001258

>>4001215
1) i said i'm hella sleep-deprived
2) pomo, as i understand it, is all like "grand narratives collapse bc reality as we perceive it is always constructed"

i consider that different in attitude, if not in content, from what i said
like, surrealism and symbol as powerful both as aesthetic object and ethical object, an embrace of myth and an understanding of its underlying power in our lives

>>4001247
you're the cunt that looks down on people for having jobs, aren't you?
>why aren't you living off the coercion of the working class?

>> No.4001261

>>4001246
>>4001247
Awful. You're perfectly allowed to like aesthetically pleasing art and literature, but please know that I am judging the hell out of you in all my postmodern jadedness.

>> No.4001263

>>4001258
>you're the cunt that looks down on people for having jobs, aren't you?
>why aren't you living off the coercion of the working class?

What does this have to do with maintaining an aesthetic approach to creating and analyzing literature?

>> No.4001265
File: 829 KB, 1746x2444, sour_puss.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4001265

>>4001261
This man would like to have a word with you.

>I am judging the hell out of you in all my postmodern jadedness.

As if that will have any relevancy in 50 years.

>> No.4001267

>>4001265
Yeah, somehow I doubt that.

>> No.4001270

>>4001267
Because you are jaded and living in 1980 french academia

>> No.4001271

>>4001263
>What does this have to do with maintaining an aesthetic approach to creating and analyzing literature?
it doesn't, i'm asking. although it makes sense, because you're buying into this weird artist mythology from about the era aestheticism was at its peak, where art wasn't about saying something political, so you could just not give a shit about the way you're complicit in capitalism.

art as aesthetic object and nothing else is
1) hopelessly dated
2) ignorant of the fact that art requires a viewer, and the viewers reaction and appreciation is tied to their life, and what affects their life and ability to appreciate aesthetic objects is often the political

your conception of aesthetic beauty as something objective and outside of humans, or at least the conception i assume you have to take aestheticism seriously, is simply indefensible in 2013

>> No.4001272

>>4001239

That makes me think a lot about Spike Spiegel's character, for sure. Stoically tongue-in-cheek as a type of Nietzschean mask for the true self.

>> No.4001274

>>4001270
And you, apparently, are living in the 1800s. I have no idea how you can, in the 21st century, believe in the idea of some type of purity an artist can draw from inside themselves, but you're wrong and perhaps should study sociology.

>> No.4001280

>>4001265
>As if that will have any relevancy in 50 years.

To be fair, Bloom probably won't have any relevancy in 50 years from now.

>> No.4001281

>>4001271
>1) hopelessly dated
as of when, 50 years ago?

aesthetic literature timeline:

2000 B.C. --------------------->1600s~ ---> aesthetic, some hints o modern ----> 1800s France and America (Rimbaud, Baudelaire, Melville) = aesthetic --->> the avant-garde and postmodernism fad

This is just a blip on the timeline of good literature.

>2) ignorant of the fact that art requires a viewer,
Highly aware, actually, but more so of the fact that the viewer is human and alive, and not trying to impress them or combat them on a political issue.

>beauty as something objective and outside of humans
Not outside, but inextricably attached to and interconnected with [humans].

>> No.4001285

>>4001281
>>4001283
And here we have the crux of the issue.

Into the trash you go.

>> No.4001283

>>4001274
>urging me to 'get with the times'
>telling me to fill my brain with crude critical theory and leftist academic attitudes

Why would I do this?

>> No.4001290

>>4001285
Nice refutation!

>> No.4001291

Eh, if we read an ancient edition of the Illiad in Ancient Greek, I doubt we would be able to know the context of every situation due to the fact that the person who wrote the Illiad did not belong to our time. Likewise with most Epic Poems that were composed 1000+ years ago. It's due to the fact that the author of the work's influence came 100% from the past while 100% of the readers would read it in the future.

>> No.4001292

>>4001281
>Not outside, but inextricably attached to and interconnected with [humans].
if it's attached to us, and connected to us, isn't it outside us? you still have it originating outside us, when it can't because beauty is something we apply onto our perception of the universe.

>> No.4001293

>>4001281
Not the guy you're responding too, but I think there's a problem in you timeline. If you're considering the era of "aesthetic literature" as "the era during which works were selected and appreciated mostly on account of their aesthetical value" the line should probably begin at around the time of Homer (so 700-600 BC ?) which would make it rather recent since we have written epics as old as 2600 BC (and reasons to suspect they were not the first). As for literature aimed at reform or revolution, that's indeed much more recent (probably begins around late renaissance-enlightenment) but that doesn't mean it won't last.

>> No.4001298

>>4001291
While beauty is universal and ageless.

>> No.4001300

feelings are mental constructs

>> No.4001302

>>4001290
I'm not going to bother, because this conversation isn't going to go anywhere and I'm tired and want to go to bed. Quite honestly I think your beliefs are sad to see.

>> No.4001306

>>4001292
INEXTRICABLY attached and INTERconnected. Those weren't just flowery words.

>>4001293
I think those ancient epics were created for artistic and philosophical reasons, not for political or critical reasons, no?

>but that doesn't mean it won't last.

As a way for civil change? maybe it will stay.

As a form of art? I think it's going to leave that department.

Pamphlets and newspaper aren't artistic literature.

>> No.4001307

>>4001302
>I'm not going to bother
leave then

>I think your beliefs are sad to see.
I literally couldn't give a shit less

>> No.4001316

>>4001306
i don't think those words mean what you think they mean
i also think you're stupid when it comes to this

i and other human beings are interconnected
they exist outside of me
it's really not that hard
we aren't attached to aesthetics
we create aesthetics

>> No.4001318

>>4001307
So edgy.

>> No.4001324

>>4000589
there's already a movement for this, New Sincerity or something like that I think. It's pretty small so you can probably jump on it while it's taking off.

>> No.4001335
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4001335

>>4001324
Lol I have literally said all of this multiple times ITT

>>4001318
no u

>>4001316
yes they do
Funny, because I think you are stupid when it comes to this

>interconnected
>inter
>they exist outside of me
>inter
>outside of me
>inter
>2: : having internal connections between the parts or elements
>outside

>'your conception of aesthetic beauty as something objective and outside of humans[...]'
>we create aesthetics
>conception of aesthetic beauty
>we create

>> No.4001342

>>4001335
...are you fucking trolling me?
inter means fucking in between you twat. international airports have flights BETWEEN nations. interstate highways have roads BETWEEN states.

how stupid are you?

>> No.4001348

>>4001342
>2: : having internal connections between the parts or elements

>> No.4001535
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4001535

/lit/, Ive wanted to make a thread about this for a while but it would probably be better to just ask here (thanks OP).

So I dont study trends and movements much in literature and the arts, and I barely do it in philosophy. Just recently I began noticing on my own "modernist" patterns in literature, looked up and bam, realized there may be something in listening to others titles and criteria that at first glance just seem vain.

Whats the deal with post-modernism and its reactionaries? Ive read the wiki and all that but this doesnt seem to be a concept that anyone agrees on (again im naive as hell, might not just notice the majority over vocal minorities). How do they define irony? Why is irony so important in dealing with grand narratives?

I mean, I agree that these "objective" narratives are simple and childish, and that we should be able to accept a plurality of truth? But why the irony? Why the hell cant you just accept that our old goal posts and utopias were places we couldnt reach in the first place?

>> No.4001572

>Why are "feelings" seen as "gay" in contemporary culture?

because they are insecure babies that are very afraid that somebody will hate them for feeling something.

the things you describe mostly belong to adolescence, but it is true that in some sense our age lacks all passion.

the reason why people have a disrespect for passion is because of the fucked up bourgeois culture, which is all about material gain and so being anything other than a cold reptile pursuing his desires is a "waste of time".

people are afraid of passion because contradicts the middle-class worldview that "everybody his their own point of view", "you should see things from many sides", "consider all of the possibilities" - this disgusting, vile sentiment is what reduces all passion to naught, because to be passionate means to put something on pedestal and say "this is the ideal, this is what is great", and of course that is offensive and shocking to the culture that wants to stay in apathetic reflection, telling itself that "all points of view are equal". It's funny that the bourgeois who insist on this creed of "tolerance" all hold the most banal, trivial opinions that ultimately amount to, "there's nothing valuable in life that can't be counted".

>> No.4001581

>>4000641
>Because emotions are weak points in your armour

then why were Achilles and Hector so emotional?

>> No.4001626

>>4001335

>inter
>intern

These aren't the same words.

>> No.4001843

>>4000657
>following society
What is this even?

>> No.4001845

>>4001535
>punpun
nice

>> No.4001850

>>4001244
>centering art upon aesthetics is bad
>art would apparently go backwards as a result of this
>backwards
>implying art isn't just scribblings and we still have no idea what any of it means
Fuck that.

>> No.4001872
File: 242 KB, 1134x393, Screen Shot 2013-08-05 at 10.54.02 AM.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4001872

"Taipei" author Tao Lin has pulled a John Galt in what fans are calling an unexpected move. The 30-year-old writer, once called a "deadpan literary prankster" by the New York Times and notorious for his social media presence, deleted his Twitter, Tumblr and Facebook accounts last night after posting what seemed to be drug-induced rants that he no longer wants to hold influence over his fans.

How does this make you feel? Did anyone save these rants, that are now missing? Does anyone know if Tao is okay?

>> No.4001890

>>4001872
it means shitposting on /lit/ is consuming too much of his internet time for him to keep up social networking shite

>> No.4001902

>>4001872
he tweeted numbers 647, 648 something like that

>> No.4002068

>>4001139
na, that's definitely autism

>> No.4002126

You just need to find some good friends who aren't so detached and you will stop worrying about this. Easier said than done, I know, but it's not impossible. There are sincere, authentic people out there, but 4chan is the last place you want to look if you want to find them. If irony and indifference bothers you so much, I advise you to stop coming to this site.

>> No.4002136

>>4001872
:'(

Disliked his books. Loved his twitter. I hope he comes back.

>> No.4002397

Self pity won't change anything. Go read Werther and I wish that you then become ashamed enough to snap out of it

>> No.4002405

I'm happy about that. I hate it when people talk about their feelings, especially women.

>> No.4002417

What constitutes 'contemplating suicide'?
Thinking about what it would be like you killed yourself?
Or resigning yourself to the feeling that if you died, it would be a form of relief?

>asking for a friend...
>plz respond
>2deep4u

>> No.4002418

>>4001290
You're turning into the /lit/ version of CLT

>> No.4002425

>>4001307
>he doesn't give a shit but replies anyway
Bohoho

>> No.4002544

>>4002417
in the clinical sense? it'd be forming a plan on how to commit it.
in the existential sense? either of those.

>> No.4002631

I've observed that in contemporary American society, people are very reactionary to messages of sentimentality that have been constructed and packaged for easy consumption, e.g. a video of a baby being rescued from house fire on Youtube or something of the like: easily digestible "humanity" that makes everyone feel goody-goody about being a human for a minute, but then the same people who consume this sentimentality-to-go will quickly turn on their fellow man in acts of primitive violence stemming from low-level power conflicts such as "Dude, he stole my gram of weed, let's fuck him up!". I think it displays this weird dissonance between the sentimentality espoused by mass market culture for capital gain by corporations and the consumerist values that are also espoused by the same corporations.

>> No.4003049

>>4001872
>yfw Tao Lin is actually Phil Fish

>> No.4003081

destroying > MUH EXISTENTIAL CRISIS
Worrying about irony sincerity is the most masturbatory, counterproductive line of reasoning you could follow. Emotions aren't dead. Sick if up.

>> No.4003158

Look at how the condescending pseudo-intellectual elites of the social justice warrior movement have gone as far as to discredit everything as "edgy"

Librals like feelings over logic, but they don't care about other people's feelings.

>> No.4003207

>>4000946
I don't know you, but you already sound too arrogant to succeed.

>> No.4003235

>>4001298
>while "beauty" is you being conditioned to like it

fixed that for ya

>> No.4003258

>why are things the way that I perceive them to be
Maybe your friends are just annoying tryhards. I do not perceive the world to be the way that you describe.

>> No.4003280

I will give it to you, OP, that I know some people who are constantly 'having feels', and it reminds me of the very famous quote:
>"This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel"
I guess it's just frustrating that I can't reason with those people. I'm an artist, for my part, and I know that emotion is an essential part of doing good work, but conversations like this get old:
>'hey man what's up?'
>'having feels....'
>'that sucks, I'm sorry... what's wrong?'
>'dunno'
And there's nothing you can do to help, really, besides try and distract them and take their mind off of it because they refuse to be rational about identifying the source of the problem.

>> No.4003298

>>4000608
>Taipei
Hardly. Because the excerpt someone posted here isn't sincere. It's typing.

And regarding:

http://www.hackwriters.com/POMO.htm

>I see no real talent in his work, at least that here, although he is good at advertising, that soundbitten realm - where many PoMo writers could actually excel, and unless he took a sharp U-Turn in the future, which I doubt by looking at the reviews of later works, he is destined to increasingly ridiculous praise, lessening sales, an irreversible slide to irrelevance, and the unremitting scorn of critics in a hundred years who will be laughing at the literary poseurs of today, and their sycophant critics, the way the Salonistas of 19th Century France are reviled for their ignorance of the Impressionists.

>There is a difference between saddling a reader with all the work of extracting meaning from work that has none, and rewarding readers with multiple (but not infinite) interpretations if they do some work.

And all fantastic fiction can be regarded as sincere in a way. Because good fantastic fiction is about these absurd premises that you take serious and stick to.

>> No.4003303
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4003303

>>4001185
>>4001202
>>4001318
>edgy


Stop spewing this shitty meme

>> No.4003304

>>4003235
so edgy and nileiztic man

>the excerpt
You should try reading it.

>> No.4003305

>>4003303
>>4003304
heh.

>> No.4003308

>>4003304
What is the relationship between nihilism and postmodernism?

What did Crime and Punishment say about nihilism?

>> No.4003309 [DELETED] 

I have only read roughly half of this thread so if somebody has pointed this out then ignore the lack of originality but from what I gather mass-culture and specifically mass commercialisation and media has made everything feel banal. Very few can attach themselves to something that feels which they can fooled into thinking is original and important; it is made trivial by knowledge of how many people are just in the same position as they are now more than ever. Therefore people detach themselves to stand out. Irony and parody allows them a semblance of individuality but it's no more than understanding that they not longer see the point of caring about something if it doesn't feel important to do so. Make no mistake about it, people may look alike because they are acting alike but they've come to a stage of ironic detachment because that's just a personal sense of rebellion. It's merely coincidence they did so, and then they probably sought to take solace in similar individuals.

People's true feelings are one of negativity. They've constructed little meaning and are acting accordingly.

>> No.4003324

>>4003304
then crawl back into your lala-land closet, when art was appearantly made for pleasure, and not for propaganda or appeasement of gods or as something that could be traded or as means to tell a story to teach facts, nope, never happened, Homer just made up his Iliad because he fucking felt like it'd be pretty. Story-telling is not about aesthetics, it's about the preservation of things that happened so noone forgets them. This was a necessity, not a nicety, and you should still remember easy facts like that from school if you are indeed ~19 and not an idiot.

>> No.4003329

>>4003308
is this some form of rhetorical come back or are you just asking me

Postmodernism, as I see it, is nihilistic in spirit. Its the realization of our nihilistic world, and the tragic-comedic embracing of it. This is different from absurdism, the tragic-comedic embracing of the existential question, because absurdism is not nihilistic or deliberately materialistic.

>What did Crime and Punishment say about nihilism?
Dostoevsky despised nihilism and this is very clear in all of his works. Despised it so much that he ultimately accepted Christianity even though he found many holes in theism: it was, to him, the 'least worst' of the answers to nihilism. Remember, Dostoevsky lived before all of the early 20th century explorations of nihilism (dada, the avant-garde, theatre of the absurd, etc.) so he was on his own (which is, coincidentally, what makes him unique and stand out to us as important).

>> No.4003335

>>4003324
>not for [...] appeasement of gods
Never said this; actually, this was never even brought up, though I do have thoughts on it.

Appeasing the gods is one of the cornerstones of art, and we will need to create a secular version if we are to make lasting art ever again.

>Story-telling is not about aesthetics
lep leave your jaded bubble

> because he fucking felt like
There were immediate reasons, of course, but creating art in antiquity meant making a testament to your spirit, your people's spirit, and to the heavens, therefore the greats couldn't have been solely political.

>> No.4003345

>>4003335
there you have it, fear of mortality and the great nothing as the reason for art to even exist, back then and now and in a hundred thousand years.
/thread

>> No.4003354

We figuratively live in a society of dopamine addicts. You and I were born dopamine addicts but we are fighting it.

Most people go their whole lives. "Wow a sale! Better buy 10" all while not realizing they've been tricked. Gambling addicts, TV, caffeine, saving money, earning money, salt, fat, sugar, lazing around, fucking half the town, buying cigarettes, popping percosets, pressing buttons, going glutton, browsing porn, drinking more

America, land of addiction

>> No.4003359

>>4003354
laughing at you from across the pond

>> No.4003366

>>4003359
America isn't all that great

>> No.4003368

>>4003366
that is what was saying, apologies for mistaking you for one of the moon-folk

>> No.4003371

>>4003345
>there you have it, fear of mortality and the great nothing as the reason for art to even exist
True.

>/thread

What? That doesn't have to do with being sincere/ironic-apathetic about it.
>>4003359
That's funny, since Brits have dickrode all things American since 1950~

>> No.4003399

>>4003280

There are inbetweens. I've been actively trying to reach the source for a couple months now. I've teetotalled and went to therapy and am trying my hardest to annoy my psychiatrist into seeing me before fucking OCTOBER, because god knows there's an invisible legion of people like me. Point is, I used to be that pathetic feely slump and overburdened my best friend over it; in fact, I still don't think he's accepted my recent efforts, probably still sees it as one of my "false starts".

Nonetheless, my goal as a writer is to balance thought with emotion, to create characters that have irrational shouting matches with each other or bitter misconstruements over simple interactions and who try to ration it out on their own time. Postmodern characters who are trying to reconcile one another with a universal approach. I think the two can meet somewhere in the middle.

>> No.4003424

>>4003371
well, it's a good thing I'm not British then, isn't it?

>> No.4003455

>>4003424
>across the pond
One can only assume..

>> No.4003486

Don't kill yourself OP be part of the change. Life is great. you can have sex and read great books.

>> No.4003494
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4003494

>>4003486
I like your attitude!

>> No.4003511

>>4000985
I've never read anything from Tao Lin, but is his writing really that complex? I'm a good hundred pages in Gravity's Rainbow and it's the most complex book I've read since Finnegan's Wake.

>> No.4003524

OP, if you're still alive, hear me out. I felt very similarly to how you feel and at times I still feel that way. For the past year I've gone back and forth from mild depression to the more severe, suicidal type of depression. Recently, however, I found a girl who is, for the time being, perfect for me. I'm not trying to say that you must become dependent on girls (or guys) for your happiness, but meeting this girl has reminded me of the other end of the emotional spectrum that I hadn't hitherto experienced since childhood. This union has exalted me, wore away the rough edges of my character, emotionalized my mental life (I'm stealing this from Joyce). You've simply forgotten how great living can be at times. You have tunnel vision right now.

>> No.4003961

>>4003329
>is this some form of rhetorical come back or are you just asking me
I was just asking, and I'm not the guy you had been talking to.

>> No.4003964

>>4003329
Is Dostoevsky's answer to nihilism relevant to the New Sincerity movement?

>> No.4003972

>>4003961
Ah alright.

>>4003964
I would assume, more so in its spirit than in its ramifications (i.e. "hoorah for Karamazov!" (if you get me) > accepting Christianity)

>> No.4003989

one of the most unpleasant things in my life has been reaching the realization that so many people that i used to think of as "interesting" because they had all that nonchalance and irony were just assholes with really weird emotional problems.

i think that irony just makes people uptight, anxious, and depressed. like they cant just be spontaneous and sincere. they always have to have their guard up. that's pretty much it.

>> No.4003997

>>4003972
Does one need objective morals to oppose nihilism?

What is the relationship between nihilism and postmodernism?

>> No.4004030

>>4003989
This is absolutely the truth.

>> No.4004080

>>4003989
Or maybe people who are anxious, uptight, and depressed used irony as a way to deal with things.
You probably found those people "interesting" because they were different from you, especially in terms of personality. It seems that your worldview has now dimmed to the point where anyone who doesn't act according to a certain personality profile can be catalogued as an "asshole with really weird emotional problems", and you now view personality as an explicit result of someone's beliefs, not the other way around.

>> No.4004123

>>4004080
my worldview has just dimmed to the point of cynicism, not that other thing you were talking about.

it's just hard to have faith in some people when they are retarded, mean, and weird all the time. it's almost like people act like this because they are afraid of losing that edge, and then life would be boring or something. it is a shame

>> No.4004146

>>4004123
Why would the ways that other people act cause you to become cynical? You don't really know their reasons for acting that way, all you have are vague theories.
Cynicism makes more sense as a reaction to a state of affairs (whether its political, cultural, economic, etc). People's private feelings are no cause for cynicism.

>> No.4004153

>>4003997
>Does one need objective morals to oppose nihilism?
No, see absurdism

>What is the relationship between nihilism and postmodernism?
Nihilism is a state of being (but became prominent in 1800s western civilization), postmodernism is a movement/era. For more, read: >>4003329

>> No.4004160

>>4001149
>we just acknowledge that there aren't grand narratives outside us
why? the entirety of reality is a grand narrative. the thing lacking a grand narrative is you. quintessence of dust, etc.

>> No.4004200

>>4003399
i don't understand why anybody would bother seeing a psychiatrist
if your problems of the human condition are such that one can help you, you probably will be a pleb forever.

i recommend reading marcus aurelius over and over and taking an astronomy class.

>> No.4004216
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4004216

The only feeling you should ever have is love, and a sense of loss when something you love goes away.

>> No.4004231
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4004231

>>4004216
And though not everyone is accepting of an "all-loving character" in our age, you can put on a facade. Act like everyone else. Act "cool". But retain your inward infinite love. They will indeed see you as "cool", but they will see a glow in your eyes that they will not be able to understand; an aura will emanate from you.

>> No.4004251

When we see words like "gay" being thrown around, we need to examine the bigger picture of what it means to be "gay". It rarely means simply "attracted to the same gender", but rather anything that is perceived as feminine. It's a buzzword to shield one's fear of intimacy in situations that demand it. This is often the intention of most ironic gestures. Intimacy is greatly frowned upon in our patriarchal society (yes, we live in a patriarchal society, if you deny this, go back to /b/ or /pol/) as it deviates from the standard, unfeeling prototype male.

>> No.4004259

>>4004251
what about our society is patriarchal? in traditional, truly patriarchal societies expression of male emotion was historically much more acceptable. as that patriarchy has faded, so has male expression. what is your basis for claiming that patriarchy is responsible for male atomization?

>> No.4004263

>>4004216
g2b beatles

Seriously though, life isn't that one dimensional.

>> No.4004268

>>4004263
your understanding of his post is, though

>> No.4004275

>>4004268
ba-BAM!

But

love+the loss of love = still one experience

>> No.4004284

>>4004259
Male expression has been redefined for the sake of creating larger, homogenized target markets for political and economic control. Our world is still primarily run by power-hungry old men, and is still designed to greatly favor the male, so long as he fits into the designated stereotype of strong and unfeeling. It's not just women who get the shit end of the stick, it's all men who are either unable to meet this ideal, or refuse to. Those are the one's who are called fags.

>> No.4004300
File: 12 KB, 259x194, i bet feminism did this.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4004300

>>4004284
you haven't said anything to support your claim that patriarchy limits male expression. in countries that are more "patriarchal," especially india, middle east, etc.

here is what i'm getting from your argument, please correct me if i'm misunderstanding
1. old men rule the world
2. because old men rule the world, everything that has happened or will happen is patriarchy

>> No.4004308

>>4004275
just read marcus aurelius

>> No.4004321

>>4000590
>I always thought "cool" meant genuine emotional balance, calm openess to things and ability to ponder things rationally.
That's probably true, but to facile people this appears like they are ironically detached, and try to mimic them.

This is coming from a NEET, of course.

>> No.4004350

>>4004300
>you haven't said anything to support your claim that patriarchy limits male expression

what? read my post again. I explain it pretty thoroughly. The modern patriarchal ideal of the stoic, unfeeling man is basically drilled into every boy since the time they emerge from the womb. This detachment from any form of intimacy or vulnerability leads to incredibly limited male expression.

>> No.4004361

>>4004350
and what is your basis for any of this? stoicism in the face of hardship has been a male ideal in the vast majority of cultures through human history, but the modern male's lack of communication/comradeship is a distinctly modern, first-world phenomenon. you need to figure out what you are arguing, and also explain to me how mothers are teaching their sons to be stoic while they are in the womb.

>> No.4004385

>>4004361
>and what is your basis for any of this?
going out and seeing people behave the way they do and experiencing the kind of social pressures I've discussed throughout life, as well as mass consumption of media.

You're right that the stoic male has always been an ideal, but the overall detachment and anti-intellectualism that is seen in the modern male is the natural conclusion of patriarchal society blended with a rampant capitalist society. Our society is structured this way to make people more controllable and thus, easier to sell things to. Simply watch a sitcom, read a popular magazine, or, best of all, watch some advertisements to see this sort of conditioning in its purest form.

>> No.4004392

>>4004385
consumerism is feminine. why is capitalism patriarchy? the majority of consumer spending is done by women. i have no idea what you are trying to argue. i have the feeling that you don't, either.

>> No.4004416

I genuinely feel irritated by DFW's face.

>> No.4004424

>>4004392
capitalism isn't necessarily a purely patriarchal institution, but it certainly has an influence on it. I never said they were one in the same, what I said was that the modern detached male is a result of capitalism and patriarchy generally shaping our culture over the years, like a sort of perfect storm. And consumerism is genderless. We're all conditioned to play some role in consumerist culture. Regardless of how much they spend, most people are guilty of fulfilling this role.

>> No.4004429

>>4004424
you're still not making any sense.

>> No.4004453

This isn't anything really new or contemporary, the hedgehog's dilemma has always been a thing.

Think about it from the receiver's perspective. Have you ever had someone gush their feelings or bear their soul to you? It's awkward. Suddenly you have this responsibility placed on you that you may have never asked for. This person has just opened themselves up to you, they're vulnerable, and if you say or do the wrong thing you could really hurt them. It's easier to just run away and never encounter the responsibility in the first place.

The methods for avoiding this have changed over time, but being emotionally open with our thoughts and feelings has never been a hallmark of human societies. It's something reserved for people you're intimate with.

>> No.4004459

>>4004429
perhaps it is you who is having trouble making sense

>> No.4004464

>>4004200
Are you claiming that emotional and psychological problems are NECESSARILY to be construed with someone's outlook or personal take on the human condition? Because I don't agree. They're just that, problems, that prevent me from expressing my views clearly, even if they are pessimistic.

>> No.4004470

>>4004464
yes, mostly, unless you are severely autistic or schizo or something.

>> No.4004488
File: 25 KB, 300x190, ☄.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4004488

>>4004216
>>4004231
I like you.

>> No.4004489

>>4004470
Why?

>> No.4004509
File: 62 KB, 631x612, ignatiusjreillyx13j2xe[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4004509

>>4001155

Ignatius detected

>> No.4004511

>>4004509
Honestly, I'd hang out with Ignatius in real life

He seems to honestly care about literature and philosophy. Plus, he's a movie buff and so am I.

>> No.4004531

Is there an answer to the OP?

>> No.4004791

>>4004146
>Why would the ways that other people act cause you to become cynical?

because they make me mad, they make me feel like im living in a world full of weird asshole-ish people with no depth. so dodgy to try and ascertain if somebody is honest and well-intentioned

>> No.4004850

>>4004350
>what? read my post again. I explain it pretty thoroughly. The modern patriarchal ideal of the stoic, unfeeling man is basically drilled into every boy since the time they emerge from the womb. This detachment from any form of intimacy or vulnerability leads to incredibly limited male expression.
This is just so stupid. I've met so many females that were completely anesthetized compared to me. I get more criticism from American women on this one thing than from men. One of your examples are sitcoms, which are geared towards women (lazy, idiot fathers who are always wrong. Basically the opposite of 'Father Knows Best'.)