/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.3988936]

what does "the personal is political" mean

does it mean "political events that do not directly effect me should be as important to me as my mundane life"

or does it mean "my mundane life that nobody cares about should be as important to others as political events"

given the trends i see in identity politics, i feel like it's come to take the second meaning. but what we need is for the political to be personal

[Anonymous No.3988959]

It means that the political shapes your personal life and that the general trends of political life are built up out of the uncountable discrete instances that occur in private life.

[Anonymous No.3988956]

>>3988936
you're a fucking idiot
just because your life is mundane doesn't mean everyone's is
not everyone is some boring ass middle-class white dude

[Anonymous No.3988970]

it means neither of those things, and also you're kind of an idiot if you can't grasp what it means.

it means that your political beliefs arise out of the personal circumstances and beliefs and choices of your life, and at the same time politics is something that is really important to one's personal life because, you know, we are living in a fucking society

[Anonymous No.3988971]

>>3988959
>the political shapes your personal life
gee, you think ?

>the general trends of political life are built up out of the uncountable discrete instances that occur in private life.
nnnnnnnnnnope

[Anonymous No.3988977]

>>3988971
>nnnnnnnnnnope

show your work

[Anonymous No.3988986]

>>3988977
didn't you get the memo? political events happen in a vacuum, where rich white people observe them dispassionately to feel intelligent.

[Anonymous No.3988987]

>>3988971
>nnnnnnnnnnope

Yyyyyyyyyyep. This feminist slogan was used to encourage women to see the political in the ostensibly individual pressures and choices they had felt and made in their own lives--to marry, to bear and raise children, etc.

Read a little.

[Anonymous No.3988999]

>>3988987
>>3988986


the general trajectory of the average person's life does NOT have that much of an effect on the political system around that person. fascism, socialism, or feudalism irregardless people still pair up, form families, and do boring normal people stuff.

[Anonymous No.3989008]

>>3988999

Oh wow you couldn't be more stupid

[Anonymous No.3989011]

i guess what i was trying to say is that maybe this slogan used to have meaning that was intended to motivate people to take an interest in the political system around them. but now the slogan is just the rallying cry of people who conflate looking out for your own interests out of pure self-interest with being an activist

[Anonymous No.3989015]

>>3988999
aw, he still thinks of politics as a bunch of reductive buzzwords! you probably think capitalism is closer to anarchy than socialism too, don't ya champ?

next you're going to tell me police harassment on a micro level hasn't made black america as a whole a lot angrier, or that this anger isn't a major political force.

[Anonymous No.3989016]

>>3989008
you're a fucking asshole the political system is the handiwork of the theorists who feel motivated to take control and lay the groundwork. literally 90 percent of people would just go along with whatever and their boring lives wouldnt effect the structures around them

[Anonymous No.3989018]

>>3989016

Well you succeeded in proving my last point wrong lel

[Anonymous No.3989021]

>>3989016
>everyone is sheeple but the prime movers

[Anonymous No.3989034]

>>3988999
your continued insistence on just ignoring what everyone else is saying, and repeating over and over in slightly different words that the thing you think "the personal is political" means, is really fuckin cool

here's what people are saying: when someone calls someone else a nigger, that is a personal thing. it is one person using a bigoted term towards another person. it is also a political act: it is a result of a political system, it expresses the views of one person about the world, and it shapes the worldview of the other. this is, more or less, the case with everyone. my political beliefs are the result of my personal experiences, and this is broadly true for everyone. at the same time, i express the political principles in which i believe through my actions and choices - political principles are not merely something which results in a choice at the voting box, but things which shape one's whole outlook and framework. the political is not abstract or removed from everyday life - on the contrary, it's completely present in every day life.

you can argue that the political beliefs of individuals are totally irrelevant (as you seem to be). i think that argument is totally fuckin' dumb, for like five reasons, but whatever, it's an argument. but at least stop pretending that the statement in question means only some made-up thing that you want to rail against in your head. fuck.

[Anonymous No.3989041]

>>3989034
not every personal act is a political one though

fuck

[Anonymous No.3989043]

>>3989041
of course not but what the fuck is your point. not everything is political, but the point is that the political is present on the level of the personal and personal choices are sometimes or often political choices. that politics extends outside the polling booth.

[Anonymous No.3989047]

>>3989041
a *lot* of them are tho
not that guy
but seriously, every time i get followed in a store, every time a girl gets harassed on the street, every time a young black man dies because their communities are ravaged by poverty, that's political
that's what the personal is political means

[Anonymous No.3989048]

>>3989018
look, some kind of overwhelming populist movement maybe the genesis of/have an influence on the creation of a politicla system, but the prime movers are still the authors of the system

[Anonymous No.3989054]

>>3989048
*may be

[Anonymous No.3989059]

>>3989048
i fucking called it
>>3989021
i knew it, this is some dumb ass libertarian who lacks the empathy to understand anything besides his own ego
>>>/pol/
this place would be better for you

[Anonymous No.3989062]

>>3989047
>every time i get followed in a store
>every time a girl gets harassed on the street
>political


you see this is exactly what i was talking about.

i do not completely agree with what you are saying here

and this is why i made this thread

[Anonymous No.3989069]

forget it

[Anonymous No.3989071]

>>3989062
well yeah, that's because you lack what's called empathy
it's this emotion humans feel when faced with the plight of others that makes them care

[Anonymous No.3989075]

>>3989062
Each of those actions is the expression of a system of values, prejudices, moral beliefs, beliefs about reality and truth. And those things are pretty much what constitutes a political worldview, a political ideology.

I don't see how the view that those actions are political (or at least that the impetus which produces them and the cultural dynamics which make them commonplace are related to systems of political belief) is anything other than common sense - of course peoples' views about reality and the people with whom they live and morality, in addition to influencing their political beliefs, is going to influence their actions towards those people.

And I certainly don't see how that idea falls into either of the categories from the OP.

[Anonymous No.3989079]

>>3989071
what if used to feel more empathy
what if ive become desensitized

because people use this shit like a weapon over and over again to the point where people become desensitized

[Anonymous No.3989086]

>>3989079
Why, in your understanding of the world, do you think that they use it as a weapon over and over again?

[Anonymous No.3989096]

>>3989075
>every time i get followed
non-racist clerk: "the guy looks suspicious because he has his hood up"
>every time girl is harrassed
depends on what happened. if some horny guy made some awkward comment that wasnt really too aggressive or crass that doesnt imply that he is a proponent of rapeculture or whatever.

[Anonymous No.3989108]

>>3989043
what an insight.

[Anonymous No.3989110]

>>3989079
welcome to how we feel about you guys
"well why do you have to pull the race card"
we have to deal with guys like >>3989096
who invalidate what we go through without knowing it. rape culture is the idea that you can just say crass things to girls who don't want to hear it, that they don't have a right to be left alone.

[Anonymous No.3989113]

>>3988936

I wish this clown would hurry up and have a heart attack already. His act stopped being entertaining 5 years ago.

[Anonymous No.3989115]

>>3989075
>And I certainly don't see how that idea falls into either of the categories from the OP.
>>3989086

because my "social justice" facebook friends are ALWAYS making posts on facebook talking about mundane incidents like this.

because reddit is LOADED with people attention whoring with this kind of stuff. it's in the name of activism but i know that theyre partially doing it just for the validation. i dont think thats right for these two things to be conflated

[Anonymous No.3989124]

>>3989115
yeah, how dare they ask people to care about unjust deaths and the fact that they're unsafe just walking around, what assholes

i mean, i get what you're saying, but just because some assholes steal our causes to feel good doesn't mean you can just ignore real injustice

[Anonymous No.3989128]

>>3989110
someone said something like "the crowd, lacking knives, has the elbow and the sneer" think it was rousseau

in other words, we all have to deal with "not being left alone"
deal with it and stop politicizing it

[Anonymous No.3989129]

>>3989115
just because an asshole or an idiot believes something, that doesn't mean it's not true. if you want to criticize people doing dumb shit for validation, criticize people doing dumb shit for validation - that doesn't invalidate the ideas behind them in any way.

i mean, there's plenty of people who are totally down with the whole intellectual structure here and the "political is personal" idea who are still going to share your criticism of dumb teenagers on tumblr and reddit

if you go around disbelieving things just because an idiot somewhere believes in them, you won't have anything left to believe in. there's idiots everywhere, man.

[Anonymous No.3989141]

>>3989128
Stop being a dumb petty asshole. There's a difference between the alienating effects of living in society in itself, and the things that are specifically the result of bigotry. And we can trace this difference in reality, analyze it, and respond differently to it, because it is a distinct phenomenon, and we are intelligent people. It's pretty easy to notice when the way the crowd reacts changes differently and consistently depending on the race or the gender of the person observed, and I have no idea why you think the appropriate thing to do is to ignore this distinction which is present in reality just because you think it should 'just be got over'

[Anonymous No.3989142]

ITT

[Anonymous No.3989152]

>>3989128
when the race riots happen, and oh they will happen, i hope someone hurts you, hurts you bad, makes you scared to walk around

and i hope you get told to stop politicizing it

i'm done trying to be a pacifist or whatever the fuck

i seriously hope violence happens to you, i seriously hope you hurt, because you are an arrogant asshole who lacks empathy and a total waste of space

[Anonymous No.3989163]

>>3989110
>rape culture is the idea that you can just say crass things to girls who don't want to hear it

Is this what feminists actually believe? What a ridiculous notion. I say crass things to anyone, regardless of gender.

Women these days are so used to being coddled, courted, and getting special treatment by men that they flip shit and cry RAAAAAAPE whenever men treat them as their equals.

[Anonymous No.3989168]

>>3989163
So what you're saying is that you're just an asshole, and no one should be allowed to object to that?

No. Fuck you. In your individual case, no, it's not a political thing (but yours is not the vast majority of cases and not really what people are talking about when they talk about the whole idea). At the same time, stop being an obnoxious fucking brat.

[Anonymous No.3989170]

>>3988956
>not everyone is some boring ass middle-class white dude

go to /b/, nigger

[Anonymous No.3989175]

>>3989152
lol?

[Anonymous No.3989185]

>>3989168
But offense isn't absolute. It's in the ear of the beholder. There's no guidelines for what offends and what doesn't. Being a touchy thin skinned cunt doesn't deserve respect. Disagreement offends people, yet it's required for societies to grow and ideas to develop. I'd rather develop as a society than save everyone's feelings.

[Anonymous No.3989189]

>>3989185
>putting "saying crass things" on the level of society-developing ideas and notions
man you are super dumb

[Anonymous No.3989194]

>>3989185
You're right, it's hard to tell perfectly and draw bright lines for what is proper and not. We can still try and we should, though. The fact that we can't do it perfectly doesn't mean we should just give up, and it makes no sense to say that we should.

[Anonymous No.3989200]

[Anonymous No.3989198]

>>3989189
>enforcing speech codes

can you even bench your bodyweight?

[Anonymous No.3989197]

Is that Zizek?

lol

[Anonymous No.3989201]

>>3989189
Remember when liberals were arguing for girls to get shots when they entered puberty so they were less likely to get HPV and the religious right got offended?

Or what about hand washing? Hand washing hasn't always been the norm, and it was in insult to imply that doctors had to wash their hands.

Thank god no one cares about offense.

[Anonymous No.3989205]

>>3989168
>So what you're saying is that you're just an asshole, and no one should be allowed to object to that?

So you're putting words in my mouth, nice one doll. When did I say nobody is allowed to object to that? Never. I have free speech and so do you.

And how am I being an obnoxious brat? The truth is that women don't know how guys talk to their guy-friends, and when guys treat women like guys, the women cry.

[Anonymous No.3989210]

>>3989201
and that's why it's actually better to talk less about "offensive speech" and instead talk about "speech that entrenches bigotry and prejudice and deepens existing inequalities in society"

but the thing is, even if you're talking about it in those terms, it's still not cool to call black people niggers or w/e

[Anonymous No.3989214]

>>3989205
>And how am I being an obnoxious brat? The truth is that women don't know how guys talk to their guy-friends, and when guys treat women like guys, the women cry.

i think i'm just going to leave this one, honestly

(also i am a heterosexual male with a penis)

[Anonymous No.3989216]

>>3989168
There is a significant difference between objecting to being offended and politicizing that offense to silence any ideas you don't agree with.

[Anonymous No.3989220]

>>3989210
>it's still not cool to call black people niggers or w/e

is it cool to call them niggas?

[Anonymous No.3989221]

>>3989194
Nope. If you're offended, it's your fault for being a pussy. It's never the other way around. Ever.

The fact that some people actually believe "offensive" people should be silenced is proof that tyranny is being welcomed with open arms and applause.

[Anonymous No.3989222]

>>3989110
I have the right to say whatever the fuck I want in a public space as long as I'm not threatening anyone or inciting a riot

Females have the right to fucking deal with it and move on

Note I'm an autist who can't talk to females at parties, let alone harass them on the sidewalk. But what is your solution to this even? Banning 'harassing' words?

[Anonymous No.3989227]

>>3989189
>saying crass things
You say those things are crass, others may not. Not liking something is not justification for silencing speech.

[Anonymous No.3989229]

>>3989210
>existing inequalities in society
Why are their inequalities?
How does speech deepen those inequalities?
If we stop saying nigger, will people stop being racist?
The word nigger is pretty taboo in today's society. Does that mean racism is over?

Or maybe is this argument dumb as hell and without any merit other than bad feelings?

People will hate you for being a thin skin cunt whether the word "nigger" exists or not.

[Anonymous No.3989233]

>>3989221
No, sorry, that's insane and ridiculous. You're saying that it is always unreasonable to be insulted when someone insults you?

>>3989222
I agree you have that right. But having the right to do something does not necessarily make it right for you to do it.

I'm not saying that we should ban anything. I'm saying that you (and people generally) should choose not to do and say these things. I don't think that's a particularly complicated concept.

[Anonymous No.3989236]

remember kids, you choose to be offended

[Anonymous No.3989239]

>>3989214
>also i am a heterosexual male with a penis
OMG why didn't you check your privilege! Didn't you know being a hetero male means anything you say is automatically invalid?

[Anonymous No.3989238]

>>3989214
Can't even explain yourself can you?

I don't think anything more needs to be said about your cognitive ability.

[Anonymous No.3989237]

>>3989227
point me to where someone ITT has advocated passing a law to make saying these things illegal

(no one has, and asking people not to say dumbass things is not 'silencing speech' under any possible reasonable definition)

[Anonymous No.3989235]

>>3989233
Being insulted is okay. It happens to everyone often in life. You move on.

[Anonymous No.3989250]

>>3989229
Saying racist shit all the time perpetuates racism, yeah. I feel pretty comfortable with that argument. Can't believe I have to explain this.

>>3989235
Well, I admire your Christian principles of turning the other cheek, but not everyone has your deep religious faith or your strength of character.

>>3989239
Blah blah blah.

[Anonymous No.3989251]

>>3989233
>You're saying that it is always unreasonable to be insulted when someone insults you?
No that is a perfectly normal reaction, what is unreasonable is to think people should practice censorship to avoid hurting your feelings.

[Anonymous No.3989253]

>>3989251
>>3989251
point me to where someone ITT has advocated passing a law to make saying these things illegal

(no one has, and asking people not to say dumbass things is not 'practicing censorship' under any possible reasonable definition)

[Anonymous No.3989254]

>>3989233
>You're saying that it is always unreasonable to be insulted when someone insults you?

Did you actually miss my point completely or are you just strawmanning me? I'm saying that you hold responsibility over your own feelings.

If someone calls you a dirty pathetic cunt who is asking to be raped, and you go home and cry... guess what? It's your fault for crying. A stronger, more mature person would have laughed it off. They would have laughed it off because they KNOW that it takes an insecure, buttflustered person to come up with an insult like that.

[Anonymous No.3989256]

>>3989237
point to anywhere in my post where I said anything about laws

[Anonymous No.3989258]

I feel like saying certain things should be censored is perfectly reasonable and I don't feel bad for thinking that.

>inb4 muh freedom

[Anonymous No.3989265]

>>3988987
So now every woman is thinking that every thing in her life will have big world consequences? So instead of focusing on the bigger issues or think of small problems as just small problems, everything will be interconnectedtextualmulitdisciplinary and so on. Imagine the energy wasted on just creating discontent.

[Anonymous No.3989270]

here are some facts for you brainwashed idiots:

1. rape is not a political issue
2. street harassment is not a political issue
3. the wage gap is a myth
4. rape culture is a myth
5. "patriarchy" is an extremely narrow-minded representation of western culture

[Anonymous No.3989271]

>>3989250
Not a christian, atheist.

The world doesn't revolve around you. Neither does it revolve around me. Nor whites, blacks, asians, transeagle furrykin, or any other group. Most people are taught this when they're kids as soon as their parents hear "but it's not faiiiiiir" slip from their mouths. Liberals seem to think it's a right to never be offended.

[Anonymous No.3989268]

>>3989254
well

first off, that point doesn't actually have much to do with my main argument here, which is that you should not say things that are fucking dumb and shitty, like your hypothetical example here, because it is as a general rule bad to say things that are dumb and shitty

second, that is pretty stupid. it's literally the kind of thing that parents say to their kids when they get teased in school in the 2nd grade. that's not practical advice that touches the reality of how people work. it's nonsense.

third, when i see that scenario, the response i have in mind to feeling insulted is less "going home and crying" and more "asking the person to stop being an idiot and insulting you, and preferably apologize as well." that seems like a perfectly reasonable response to being insulted to me - a perfectly human, mature thing to do. but it is, apparently, judging by this thread, wildly inappropriate and akin to censorship and evil and terrible to do that, and the only appropriate response to being insulted, ever, is to just stay silent.

well, all i can say is, fuck that shit. i am just never going to agree that staying silent is the only appropriate response to being insulted. that is just stupid. (i am sure, of course, that you won't respond to me calling you stupid, because it only indicates my deep insecurity, and complaining about it in any way would be deeply immature; i look forward to your mature, collected lack of response to this post)

[Anonymous No.3989275]

>>3989270
>presenting a list of statements
>"here are some facts retards"
sage

[Anonymous No.3989280]

>>3989256
If it's censorship to say "people shouldn't say certain things because they're offensive", how is it not also censorship to say "people shouldn't say 'people shouldn't say certain things because they're offensive' because that's censorship"

what's the crucial distinction by which your voicing objection and disagreement to my speech is not censorship, but my voicing objection and disagreement to your speech is censorship

tia

[Anonymous No.3989286]

>>3989270
i'm this post

>>3989265
this is incredibly relevant to what i posted above

[Anonymous No.3989288]

>>3989275
factual statements you idiot

[Anonymous No.3989289]

this thread blows

[Anonymous No.3989291]

>>3989270
>4. rape culture is a myth
Actually feminists are working hard to make this one a reality. Run a propaganda campaign telling all men that they are rapists long enough and they are sure to convince some that they must be.

[Anonymous No.3989294]

>>3989265
>>3989265
>>3989265
>So instead of focusing on the bigger issues or think of small problems as just small problems, everything will be interconnectedtextualmulitdisciplinary and so on

this. this. this.

op here. i have no idea why everybody is talking about censorship.

this is literally what i was trying to get at from word one

[Anonymous No.3989299]

>>3989288
ok let me correct myself:

>presenting a list of opinion-based statements without sources or any justification or elaboration
>"here are some facts retards"
sage, again

[Anonymous No.3989302]

>>3989270
i don't know what you mean "you brainwashed idiots", because there's only one person here arguing in favor of any of those propositions. and i know who i am - but who are all you zombies?

>>3989271
i didn't really think you were a christian. it just amused me to pretend you were. i'm havin fun out here. i'm gunslingin

and i don't think that there's a right not to be offended. but i also think you should try to avoid being a jerkass whenver possible, and i don't really understand the massive problem with "try not to be a jerkass (and also avoid entrenching existing forms of social injustice and inequity)"

[Anonymous No.3989305]

>>3989294
But what if the big issues and the small issues are connected?

I mean, you have to acknowledge that it's at least a possibility, and if they are connected, it makes sense to be aware of that connection.

[Anonymous No.3989306]

>>3989268
>that's not practical advice that touches the reality of how people work. it's nonsense.

That's because you are emotionally very weak. It might not touch the reality of how YOU work, and that is your fault.

Asking for an apology isn't akin to censorship you dolt.

You don't even have a fucking argument because you're not even addressing mine. You're addressing a straw man.

[Anonymous No.3989307]

>>3989015

>or maybe blacks imagine or manufacture slights against them when police are merely fairly upholding the law

[Anonymous No.3989312]

>>3989270

[Anonymous No.3989316]

>>3989294
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

[Anonymous No.3989320]

>>3989306
you lot are the ones who brought up censorship, not me. i don't think anything i've advocated approaches censorship. so, you know. yep.

and i'm disappointed to see from your harsh language and your use of the insult 'dolt' that you are an insecure, butthurted person. i am disappointed, comrade anonymous. i had expected more from you. more security and more sturdy self-reliance. surely you understand that insulting me will not prove your own self-worth? it's a shame that some people lack the maturity and the self-awareness to refrain from pointless insults.

[Anonymous No.3989323]

>>3989280
The difference is I'm not telling you what you can or can't say, I'm debating that advocating censorship in response to personal reactions to external stimuli is narrow minded.

[Anonymous No.3989325]

>>3989302
>"try not to be a jerkass (and also avoid entrenching existing forms of social injustice and inequity)"
That's a moral call. Fine. But as we've decided, morality shouldn't be enforced on people.

>(and also avoid entrenching existing forms of social injustice and inequity)"
Social injustice and inequity don't exist. Your boogeyman is irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.3989329]

nuke this thread

[Anonymous No.3989333]

>>3988999
Holy crap, are there still people using "irregardless"?