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/lit/ - Literature

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3974849 No.3974849 [Reply] [Original]

I just finished reading Hemingway's 'The Sun Also Rises', only the second of his novels that I've read, and I was massively surprised by it. Given his reputation - both as a paragon of 'masculine' fiction and as a significant prose stylist - I couldn't quite believe that the novel amounted to Henry James with bullfighting.

I read a lot of American fiction, but I've always been pretty neglectful of ol' Ernest. Would anyone care to defend the book? Or, if there are any proponents of his, could you give me an idea of how it stacks up against the rest of his work?

The other one I've read is 'A Farewell to Arms', if that helps at all.

>> No.3974884

he's a shitty writer, homophobic/masculine or not

>> No.3974894

he's a good writer, homophobic/masculine or not

>> No.3976249

I just finished A Farewell To Arms and I cried.

I don't care if it is 'masculine', anyone who labels masculine things as inherently negative is a braindead product of ultra-progressive neo-feminist social critique.

>> No.3976252 [DELETED] 

Ernest was not trans* positive, why give a shit what he wrote? He was probably transphobic, too.

>> No.3976255 [DELETED] 

>>3976252
Not being trans positive is in and of itself transphobia, which again means that Ernest actually was a trans* persyn in secret.

>> No.3976256

A a lot of anons have said that his short fiction is better. Some of his novels are really awful. I've never read anything by Henry James. I've heard his writing is "turgid" doesn't sound like Hemhem.

>> No.3976273

>>3976255
11/10 caused my house to explode via rag

>> No.3976283 [DELETED] 

literally all writers are trans(*)

>> No.3976287 [DELETED] 

>>3976256
Obviously they're nothing alike, I have no clue what OP is talking about

>> No.3976292 [DELETED] 

>>3976290
He wasn't castrated

>> No.3976290

Bullfighting is a minor theme of The Sun Also Rises. It may be a great aesthetic theme, but it is minor.

Masculinity is a big theme because of the major force of the book, that is, the protagonist being castrated due to a war wound. But the castration can be considered as a practical way to represent the emptiness of the post-war generation.

The post-war generation isn't a major theme either.

The emptiness of life is.

Learn how to read, /lit/.

>> No.3976301

>>3976292
He couldn't get it up as far as I can remember.

>> No.3976303 [DELETED] 

>>3976301
True. Look up erectile dysfunction. It's what he had

>> No.3976306 [DELETED] 

>>3976290
At one point in the book he says that he can't be with a woman because he's sick. Not exactly how one would describe a physical wound, in my opinion. He had ED. Learn how to read, Anon.

>> No.3976308 [DELETED] 

We have a duty to become trans* persyns and suckle on the black cock like Hemingway. Anything else is regressive redneck trash. Progress yourselves.

>> No.3976318

>>3976306
Learn that in life you can't always be sincere with woman.

And can someone take the book from the shelf and settle this for once? Was it ED due to a war wound or was just ED?

>> No.3976321

>>3976318
From wikipedia:
"The protagonist of The Sun Also Rises is Jake Barnes, an expatriate American journalist living in Paris. Jake suffered a war wound that left him impotent; the nature of his injury is not explicitly described."

>> No.3976322

>>3976318
it doen't even matter m8
l2read and stop being pedantic

>> No.3976324

>>3976308
Stop. It's not even subtle.

>> No.3976325

>>3976290
>The emptiness of life

Christ, I'm not sure I can handle reading that next. I already feel hollow and grey after AFtA

>> No.3976328

>>3976325
Read For Whom the Bell Tolls.

>> No.3976330

haven't read a book of his, but i was thinking starting with The Old Man and the Sea. is this the way to go?

>> No.3976334

>>3976330
Start anywhere. Hemingway isn't Joyce.

>> No.3976336

>>3976334
>Joyce

I read Portrait of the Artist but I can't bring myself to start Ulysses

>> No.3976339

>>3976336
Don't go near Ulysses unless you're really up for it.

>> No.3976342

>>3976330
I started Hemingway with it, at age 14. I didn't like it. At 17 I picked up For Whom the Bell Tolls, loved it, re-read The Old Man and the Sea, loved it, I'm now reading A Farewell to Arms.
It is a good place to start in my opinion, I just didn't get it when I was 14. But start wherever you want. Each book (the one's I've read at least) is unique and at the same time very Hemingwayish.

>> No.3976344

>>3976334
>>3976336
>>3976339
Wait, what? I'm about to read Ulysses but I have not read any other of Joyce's stuff. Am I doing it wrong somehow?

>> No.3976349

>>3976344
yeah, stop getting trolled by /lit/

>> No.3976353

>>3976344
Well I think it would certainly help if you read Dubliners and Portrait first.

>> No.3976537

Just read "the old man and the sea", haven't read anything by Hemingway before this.

While I really enjoyed the masculinity in this struggle of an old man, and that the novel isn't really about fishing at all - I got thoroughly bored by his crude and simplistic prose. Is this featured in all of his works?

>> No.3976540

>>3976344
Yes you eternal faglord

>> No.3977054

>>3976353
Why so? Is it because of his particular use of the English language?
I could borrow my mother's (yes, laugh) old copy of Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, but it's in Spanish. Should I read it anyway?

>> No.3977329

bump

>> No.3977340

>Would anyone care to defend the book
From what? Some retard's assertion that it didn't live up to his expectations? Not really.

>> No.3977347

>>3976537
>Crude and simplistic prose
lel

>> No.3977402

>>3977347
What, you found it beautiful?

>> No.3977419

>>3977402
It's spartan, and expresses more in 10 words than most authors do in 100.

>> No.3977435

>>3977419
ie: crude and simplistic

>> No.3977445

>>3977435
Simplistic and crude seem to imply a lack of expression.

>> No.3977486

>>3977445
his prose does. it's only "implied" and even then it's crude and simplistic implications.

>> No.3977487

you guys will argue about anything

>> No.3977491

>>3977486
I don't think it's a problem with Hemmmingway's ability to imply, more a fault in your ability to infer.

>> No.3977545

>>3977445
I don't really give a shit about what you seem to think it implies - fact is, his prose is unrefined, simple, and blunt.
I find his work to have interesting content - perhaps even complimented by this crude presentation - but I don't find it to hold any beauty at all.

>> No.3977573

>>3977545
Each to their own I guess. Even people suffering from mental retardation can have opinions.

>> No.3977644

>>3977573
Come on then, tell me why I'm wrong

>> No.3977679

>>3977644
I explained why you're wrong. Your response was "I don't think it has any depth because it's spartan" and that was that.

>> No.3977687

>>3977679
There are _two_ responses to your post.
Perhaps it's _two_ different people

>> No.3977690

Hemingway spent a lot of time refining his "unrefined" prose. He wrote that way on purpose. As an author, he's invisible in his own writing. He gives you the story and attempts to make you feel a certain way, but he doesn't spend time telling you what you should be thinking or feeling.

It doesn't make his prose better than more descriptive writers. But it also doesn't make his prose worse than those more descriptive writers. Simple isn't a bad thing.

>> No.3977705
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3977705

I read A Farewell to Arms and didn't particularly enjoy it. A year later I tried The Sun Also Rises and thoroughly enjoyed it, probably because I knew what I was in for.

I just bought a compilation of his short stories, but it might take a while to get around to them (I also purchased Don Quixote and The Secret Agent by Conrad)

>> No.3977708

>>3977491
there isn't much to infer. he doesn't have many ideas.

>> No.3977711

>>3977708
top fucking lel

>> No.3977724

>>3977711
top quality post.

>> No.3977728

>>3976290
>post-war generation not a major theme

Uh what. Sure, you can make a case that the emptiness of life is a major theme based off the fact that the characters in the book have no sense of direction. That being said, if you are accepting that as a theme, you must also accept the much more specific theme of the post-war generation. Notice how not everyone's life in the novel is meaningless and without direction. Only that of those who grew up during the war.

Also he has a penis. He couldn't get it up.

>> No.3977734

>>3977724
It was far more valuable than any of the shit you've spewed so far, and yet it was far more concise.

>> No.3977750

>>3974849
Hemingway and Twain were the greatest American writers.

Try these:

>A Movable Feast
>Islands in the Stream
>Old Man and the Sea

If you don't enjoy most of Hemingway's work you're either:

A.) A cock guzzling hipster, artsy, "i'm so educated with elevated tastes" ball licking blowing cum chugging butt slut.

Or

B.) You're not American.

>> No.3977752

>>3977750
A. doesn't sound very appealing

>> No.3977769

>>3976330
I read the Old Man and the Sea from cover to cover for no other reason than that I couldn't put it down. I had to find out what happened next.

That fucking fish

>> No.3977783

>>3977419
This man has the idea.

>> No.3977812

>>3976306
in the Dangerous Summer he describes gore pretty frequently and accurately, so I doubt it's some 'allusion'

>> No.3977885
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3977885

>>3977340

>> No.3978000
File: 11 KB, 300x396, 1342087707009.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3978000

>>3974894
>>3976252

>> No.3979210

bump

>> No.3979335

>>3977054
anyone?

>> No.3979384

>>3979335
Don't read translations of Joyce.

>> No.3979392

>>3979384
Alright, I won't, but I can't get hold of them at the moment, I just have Ulysses. Why shouldn't I read it before the others?

>> No.3979406

>>3979392
Because Ulysses is a continuation of themes and characters started in Joyce's earlier works. You should also read the Odyssey before Ulysses.

If you go in unprepared you are going to be bored and most of the stuff will go over your head.

>> No.3979416

>>3979406
I see, that's why the name 'Stephen' is out there a lot, right? Which one should I read first of those two, Portrait or Dubliners?
Thank you anon.

>> No.3979427

>>3979416
Yep, that's right.

Start with Dubliners, then Portrait. Best of luck!

>> No.3979977

>>3979406
>>3979392
>>3976344
>>3976339
>>3976336

Ulysses is a shit novel, very third rate.

>> No.3980360

>>3979406
>You should also read the Odyssey before Ulysses.
Is an abridgement enough?

>> No.3980381

>>3979977
so edgy

>> No.3980417

Ice Berg Theory is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. The man's writing is journalistic and bland, and his homolust faggot followers try to cover it up by blaming people who call him a hack for not being enfatuated with his shitty prose "unimaginative". The most explicit adjective he uses in TSAR is "rolling". I mean, come on. I'm not saying his works are unimportant; TSAR is a great book if you want to learn about post war angst, but if you think it requires anything more than the intelligence of a 15 year old to write like he does, then you're sadly mistaken.

He's really the spokesperson for shitty writers. He preaches experience as if its the most important thing authors can do. So people go out, travel around the world getting drunk, write a shitty book about it because they don't know how to write, and blame others for not "getting it".

If you're looking for minimalism, look towards the imagists and east asian poets, not some sweaty old drunkard who's been unfortunately mistaken for a genius for 85 years.

>> No.3980438

>>3980417
>>>/b/

>> No.3980440

>>3980417
I bet you're a real fucking bore at dinner parties

>> No.3980447

if any of you haven't read Hemingway's short story The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber, go check it out. He thought it was one of his best.

>> No.3980462
File: 60 KB, 379x579, 1331588442074.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3980462

>>3980417
...not

>> No.3980474

>>3980438
>>>/hm/

>> No.3980478

>>3977750
hemingway belongs to yurop, yank. deal w/ it.

>> No.3980481

>>3980440
And I bet your writing is a real fucking bore to read.

>> No.3980486

>>3980474
>>>/d/

>> No.3980488

>>3980462
Wow, you put me in my place, didn't you?

>> No.3980504

>>3977750
>Hemmingway and Twain were the greatest American writers

Umm.. Maybe some of the most influential, but definitely not the greatest.

Hemmingway is just pants on head retarded. He writes like a 12 year old and his way of describing the setting of a scene is just "tree and hill and bridge and people and rain and so on." It takes no talent to write like that.

Twain was a pretty great satirist and social commentator but I'm not sure he's the greatest. He's pretty damn good, I'll give you that though.

>> No.3980507

>>3980417
I like this guy and his opinions.

>> No.3980508

>>3980486
>>>/lqbt/

>> No.3980539

>>3980447
I tend to agree with Frank O'Connor about that one:

>Francis runs away from a lion, which is what most sensible men would do if faced by a lion, and his wife promptly cuckolds him with the English manager of their big-game hunting expedition. As we all know, good wives admire nothing in a husband except his capacity to deal with lions, so we can sympathize with the poor woman in her trouble. But next day Macomber, faced with a buffalo, suddenly becomes a man of superb courage, and his wife, recognizing that[...] for the future she must be a virtuous wife, blows his head off. [...] To say that the psychology of this story is childish would be to waste good words. As farce it ranks with "Ten Nights in a Bar Room" or any other Victorian morality you can think of. Clearly, it is the working out of a personal problem that for the vast majority of men and women has no validity whatever.[13]

"A Clean, Well-Lighted Place" -- now that's a great short story.

>> No.3980547

>>3980508
>>>/h/

>> No.3980645

>>3980539
I'll have to check it out. I'm not so sure her killing Francis has to do with the perception of required fidelity virtuousness towards him in the future, it seemed to me more like her inability to allow Francis to be anything more than her bitch. He finally becomes a man, he becomes powerful and capable, and she can't handle that. I just found it to be a very powerful story

but its just like my opinion man etc

>> No.3980651

Anyone who claims that Hemingway is an awful writer has his or her head up his or her ass. That man's writing was simultaneously forceful yet minimally elegant, and not just any yahoo can pull that shit off. Just because he doesn't go apeshit with adjectives doesn't mean his writing is in any way simple or inferior. God damn

>> No.3980656 [DELETED] 

>>3980539
Hell yeah, we' intellectual now. I cuckold my wife to my dog because I'm progressive,

>> No.3980659

>>3980539
>Clearly, it is the working out of a personal problem that for the vast majority of men and women has no validity whatever.

I always thought most suspected or knew Francis Macomber is actually F(rancis) Scott Fitzgerald, and the story was Hemingway taking a deep jab at Scott and Zelda.

>> No.3980663

>>3980659
can a nigga get a source on that? Would be pretty interesting to find out more

>> No.3980853 [DELETED] 
File: 71 KB, 1087x635, wef.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3980853

Rape me like the left raped that child and then made him pay for the rape baby

>> No.3980884

>>3980651

>forceful yet minimally elegant

Keep telling yourself that

His writing is brutish and simple and his contemporaries (Pound, Joyce, Fitzgerald) shit all over it.