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/lit/ - Literature

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3950811 No.3950811 [Reply] [Original]

Was Jesus alpha or was he beta?

>> No.3950813

he transcended the alpha omega dichotomy

>> No.3950817

Dude preached nonviolence. But on the other hand, bitches wanted to wash his feet. But on the third hand, he died a virgin.

>> No.3950824

>>3950817
>Dude preached nonviolence

"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" (Matthew 10:34

>> No.3950826

He was The Alpha and The Omega.

>> No.3950829

>>3950817
>the year of our demiurge 2013
>believing in official jesus

>> No.3950839

>>3950824
And I had respect for you.

>> No.3950843

Let's see: thinks of everybody as his children, but has no children of his own. Surrounded by a gorup of lesser followers but not a member of any group. Fearless, selfless, teaches. His purpose is to die to defend his group from a threat they themselves have no chance against. Is believed to be able to return.

this is pretty much the definition of alpha behavior. Hell, he;s even made to appear twice the height of his followers in byzantine art. and since "alpha" is a role, which can and will be filled after he's killed, it's self perpetuating.

Remember the basic alpha characteristics, peaceful/aggressive. but never competitive.

Adopts everybody as his children, but has no descendants of his own.

leads groups but never joins them.

Troop of followers who are expected to emulate/replace him.

selfless, generous and fearless

dies to save his followers from an outside threat.

other alphas: Superman, Gilgamesh, King Arthur, Frederick Barbarossa... you get the idea.

>> No.3950844

>>3950839
>Anonymous
>having worthwhile opinions

take notes, retard

>> No.3950848

>was he
nope, he wasn't

>> No.3950852

>>3950839
the last thing you should do is respect me

really I like the quote from Luke better, that "I come not bringing peace, but division"

>> No.3950855

>using pickup artist language on the literature board

>> No.3950858
File: 26 KB, 274x300, Nietzsche-274x300.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3950858

>>3950843
>selflesness
>alpha

Oh wow, it's like you are really knee-deep into christian bullshit.

>> No.3950861

post-alpha

>> No.3950866

>>3950811
Super alpha. Most famous person to walk the Earth. Name inscribed in human history forever, people shout, sing, whisper his name every second. No one has had the same magnitude of influence, ever, and probably never will. People hang on, and analyse, every word he spoke. The ultimate leader of humanity. And that's what alpha is, leadership.

>> No.3950869

>>3950843
>never competitive
How's being a failure doing for you, turbonerd?

>> No.3950872

>>3950817
Nowhere in the Bible doees it say that he died a virgin

>> No.3950873

>>3950866
Do you think people who follow his teachings are alpha too?

>> No.3950877

>>3950872
You've read the Bible?

>> No.3950881

Beta as fuck. God is pretty fucking beta too

>> No.3950888

>>3950881
>God is pretty fucking beta too
confirmed for not reading the bible

>> No.3950890

>>3950881
lol r u trying 2 fedora me

>> No.3950893
File: 18 KB, 300x300, le dan brown face.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3950893

>>3950817
>But on the third hand, he died a virgin
You sure about that?

>> No.3950897

>>3950866
>implying he ever lived

>> No.3950901

>>3950869
>>3950858


Uh, there's no one for an alpha to compete with: He's four times the mass of any other male in the group, or at least twice. And since any group only has one alpha, he's primarily out-group aggressive when he's aggressive at all.

And yes, selfless. He HAS to be selfless,because his whole purpose, to defend the tribe/band/group from outside threats, usually predators way bigger than even him, is often a suicide mission.

There's a reason that these themes keep showing up in cultures all around the world. There's a tiny bit of primate group behavior dynamics still left in our brains, and sometimes it can be pretty compelling.

Alphas are agressive, betas are competitive
Alphas are independant, betas join groups
Alphas are selfless and generous, betas are selfish and possesive
Alphas are fearless and confident, betas are fearful and insecure
Alphas are big, dominant and passive until aroused, betas are samller, submissive (except among themselves) and active
Alphas generally feel protective of everybody in the group, betas only value themselves and those they identify as especially significant to them
Alphas mate occasionally, betas mate at every opportunity and compete for mating opportunities.

Learn some Primatology guys.

and yes, jesus fits

>> No.3950904

>>3950888
does "you shall have no other gods before me" sound alpha to you?
samael wears a fedora

>> No.3950907

>>3950901
Your and idiot.

>> No.3950908

God: Beta
Jesus: Alpha

theologists would be ok with this

>> No.3950909

>>3950904
Yeah that sounds alpha as shit

>> No.3950910

>>3950904
>does "you shall have no other gods before me" sound alpha to you?
yes, seeing as it's a commandment, not a pleasant suggestion

>> No.3950913

>>3950873
Dunno. Depends on the person. I think it's possible. There are too many Christians, and powerful ones, to write it off completely. I don't see inside their heads.

>> No.3950915

is the westboro baptist church alpha?

>> No.3950917
File: 164 KB, 300x446, jung mirin the abrasax.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3950917

>>3950908
mah nigga

>> No.3950920

>>3950908
How the fuck is God beta?

>> No.3950927

>>3950907
>Your and idiot

that's at least as good as the "morans" one

And refute me then. What minutiae of primate behaviour have i overlooked, that your microtome persicacity has pared out?

>> No.3950933

>>3950908
did the pope say that?
>holy trinity

>> No.3950936

>>3950920
not him but God of the bible liked doing sneaky shit all the time. jesus at least established a sense of constancy

>> No.3950938

Is the holy spirit alpha or beta?

>> No.3950947

>>3950938
He was the one who inseminated Mary, so I'd say he was pretty alpha.

>> No.3950951

>>3950811

How is this /lit/ related?

>> No.3950953

>>3950951
Bible is a book. Books are literature.

>> No.3950954

>>3950951
in the beginning was the word

>> No.3950956

>>3950951
Jesus is a character in the greatest work of fiction ever written. I'd say it's very /lit/ related.

>> No.3950976

>>3950951
Well, jesus is a literary figure, and the alpha male shows up as a theme in a lot of great literature.

King Arthur for instance:

Youth is chosen for special properties, signified by magical phallic object

He proves himself by defeating threats to his territory and uniting his disciples under him. He has no legitimate offspring, and his second in command seduces his wife (alphas often subvert their sex drives to aggression and are not that possesive of women, while betas are) and he dies facing an external threat/fighting a potential successor and his return is anticipated.

Literature is full of alphas. Gandalf, Odin, Odysseus, Superman as preciously pointed out. The Alpha male giving up his life for the sake of the group is as old as writing. My favorite example of the alpha in popular culture is Santa Claus

>> No.3950986

>>3950858
funny that you post a nietzsche.jpg when, even for his contempt for christianity, thought of jesus as alpha as fuck.

>> No.3950987

I will rephrase my question:
is "turning thy other cheek"
alpha or beta?

>> No.3950995

>>3950986
>thought of jesus as alpha as fuck
Can you post some related Nietzsche quotes?

>> No.3950996

>>3950987
turning the other cheek is alpha, since it displays confidence and fearlessness, if maybe a little contempt for the other person. The point is to minimize divisive conflict within a group. Think of dad (alpha) trying to keep two kids from fighting over "who started it"

>> No.3951009

>>3950956
>fiction

Say that to my baptist face bitch

>> No.3951034
File: 434 KB, 1324x1101, climb.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3951034

>>3950996
is the alpha-beta relationship tied to the parent-child relationship inherently, or at least in other ways?

>> No.3951040

>>3950996
>turning the other cheek is alpha, since it displays confidence and fearlessness, if maybe a little contempt for the other person.
that's not what turning the other cheek signifies in a christian context

>> No.3951058

>>3950987
>>3950996
Turning the other cheek didn't actually mean what we think it does

>> No.3951070

>>3951058
What did "turning the other cheek" actually mean?

>> No.3951071

>>3951040
>>3951058
dat suspense

so what does it mean?

>> No.3951073

>>3950858
Nietzsche was the biggest beta ever.

>> No.3951078

the only alpha role most men ever play is the head of a family. Unless they become coaches of sports teams or leaders of military platoons or highly placed politicians.

The alpha role of the father or patriarch over the descendants is where it's easisiest to see in modern society. But this is sort of modified by the traditional nuclear family. The ancient hebraic system of a patriarch with many wives and children, ruling and representing a large extended family, and with his sons fighting amongst themselves to replace him fits better.

In the modern world, we have characters like superman and santa clause who embody alpha aspects like kindness, generosity, strength, selflessness, power used only for outside threats etc. And politics consciously or unconsciously forces the alpha role on kings, prime ministers, presidents. especially in the "King Must Die" western systems where all the sins of the administration are placed upon the old ruler and he's "executed" and replaced by a younger successor who then has his turn until the old king (or his party's representative) returns to set things right, etc. these resonances run dep sometimes.

>> No.3951080

>>3950901
this guy gets it

first time I'm going to screencap a 4chan post because the whole misunderstanding of the alpha/beta idea is irritating

>> No.3951090

>>3950987
alpha

if you are hit and you kneel down and cover your face to prevent further attack then that would be beta

but if you are so confident that you're in the right that you not only refuse to protect yourself but you actually show your other cheek so that the guy can you hit you again, then that's alpha

>> No.3951096

Why does everyone talk as if the dichotomy is alpha/beta?

In animal psychology, the alpha is at the top of the hierarchy, and the omega is the one at the bottom. The beta is the second most powerful, and second in the hierarchy.

>> No.3951097

>>3950901
>Alphas are agressive, betas are competitive
Alphas must be aggressive to be competitive. Betas lack the ability to be competitive.
>Alphas are independant, betas join groups
Alphas join groups and lead. If alphas are independent how can they reproduce and spread their genes?
>Alphas are selfless and generous, betas are selfish and possesive
No one is "selfless and generous". Alphas simply have more resources to spare and reward their inferiors.
>Alphas are big, dominant and passive until aroused, betas are samller, submissive (except among themselves) and active
Alphas being passive and betas being active is a false concept. Being active shows your desire to mate and warded you off from predators.
>Alphas generally feel protective of everybody in the group, betas only value themselves and those they identify as especially significant to them
Both the Alpha and the Beta need the group to achieve their goals. Both are selfish in this case. The alpha would easily sacrifice someone from the group from their benefits while the beta simply does not possess these means.
>Alphas mate occasionally, betas mate at every opportunity and compete for mating opportunities.
Alphas mate as much as possible to spread their genes. Betas mate at every opportunity but these opportunities come more rarely than what happens with the Alpha.

basic understanding of natural selection

>> No.3951099

>>3951097
this is what a beta thinks an alpha is like

it might as well be called, "the vanity of a beta"

>> No.3951103

>>3951099
[citation needed]

>> No.3951108

>>3951097
>Alphas mate as much as possible to spread their genes.

Lol, then why is that the aristocracy has always taken great care in choosing the right mates and has always valued chastity, whereas wanton breeding has always been a characteristic of the underclasses? Alphas are very selective in their mates because they can afford to be selective, and it's why they don't "spread their genes as much as possible". Betas spread their genes as much as possible, Alphas spread their genes with the best mate(s).

>> No.3951112

>>3951099
A beta like you would never recognize what a true alpha is.

>> No.3951115

>>3951112
an alpha wouldn't be accusing other people of being beta, because alphas aren't that insecure

alphas are actually kind to people that are weaker than them because they have excess strength that allows them to take care of others on top of taking care of themselves; it's the betas that are out to spite and insult everybody because they desperately need to prove their worth to everybody.

>> No.3951116

>>3951108
You're confusing Alphas with females. The best females were selective with their mates because since they are the bearers of the child, it is far important for them to find an ideal father who will give her children good genetics to pass on and provide security for her and the child.

Male alphas did not need to concern themselves about selective breeding because the only ideal female mate before medicine was just someone who would survive childbirth and keep being able to bear children. This is where natural sexual attraction comes from. We concern ourselves with specific favorable sexual traits that are also associated with how likely the female would live on to keep on reproducing.

This way, alphas would just fuck everyone who was attractive and whoever lived on was an ideal mate.

>> No.3951122

>>3951115
>alphas are actually kind to people that are weaker than them because they have excess strength that allows them to take care of others on top of taking care of themselves
It's like you just finished a high school freshman science class and are applying the concepts you learned to everything in any way you see fit

>> No.3951123

>>3951116
> alphas would just fuck everyone who was attractive

so they aren't spreading their genes as much as possible, are they? If they were spreading their genes as much as possible they would be mating with the females that are unattractive and that produce sick offspring.

>> No.3951124

>>3951071
it's supposed to be out of love and compassion for your enemy

>> No.3951130

>>3951123
I wasn't clear enough on that. Alphas found almost every female attractive. Higher testosterone = higher libido. So they still basically fucked almost everyone (yes, there were a few females that they did not touch). The most physically fit females are however, who the alpha remained with after impregnating them.

>> No.3951133

>>3951130
why are you speaking of alphas in the past tense?

>> No.3951134

>>3951097
you have to remember that it's the beta stage that does all the competing and mating. The alpha actually doesnt mate that often, especially compared to the betas who do it competitively.

Once a beta makes it to alpha stage his goals shift, and his behaviors shift too: the genetic potential he has is now invested in his offspring. He needs to protect them. He also needs to make sure they are provided for: if he takes all the food and whatever for himself (which he easily could do) they'd starve. He has to be generous And he needs the betas too, since they breed, care for the females and children to an extent and also some one of them will have to replace him. After he becomes the alpha all his behavior within the group is simple display, unless he is aggressively challenged. He uses display of another type against intruders and predators, or simply attacks them.

Alphas you must recall, identify the group as part of themselves, as opposed to themeselves as part of the group. They never join any group, and when they try its to take over and they're usally repelled by the resident alpha.

And their genes get spread during the beta phase. if they werent the most competitive of the betas and had the most success they wouldnt have got to be the alpha. The alpha phase is for protecting the genetic investment already made.
This also allows him to be fearless and selfless. If he can die but in so doing protect his group, he does it. Because he's already made his genetic contribution. and if the group survives, in his "mind" he does too.
hope that clears it up.

>> No.3951137

ITT: Alphas debating aspects of aphaness and betaness

captcha: scientists derlpo

>> No.3951140

>>3951133
Because modern medicine has eliminated the way natural selection should work.

>> No.3951153

>>3951134
>you have to remember that it's the beta stage that does all the competing and mating. The alpha actually doesnt mate that often, especially compared to the betas who do it competitively.
No I don't have to "remember" blatantly false information. Alphas naturally mate more because they have the ability to do so, and unlike females, male libido works in a way where we are not highly selective with our mates. This is because by spreading our genes more our offspring have a more likely chance of surviving simply because there are more of them. Why is it different with females? Because as soon as they are pregnant they only carry one child, which is why they have to be selective.

>> No.3951157

>>3951140
>Because modern medicine has eliminated the way natural selection should work.

no it hasn't

>> No.3951159

>>3951157
[citation needed]

>> No.3951161

>>3951157
Yes it has, faggot.

>> No.3951163

>>3951134
also, try to remember that you only get one alpha per group. They may not be possessive (in group) but they're horrifyingly territorial (out group).

Two in a confrontation will kill each other. Think siamese fighting fish. Fearlessness, stength, territoriality and no tendency to compete as rivals is a deadly combination. In human societies you almost never see this as long as resources are plentiful fortunately.

>> No.3951167

>>3950811
Beta, but Mohammad alpha

>> No.3951169

>>3951161
>>3951159
changing the conditions that a group adapts to doesn't undermine the process through which they adapt

>> No.3951171
File: 33 KB, 598x448, 1332079778029.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3951171

both of you: let it go, please. your making a fool out of yourselves and of /lit

it is embarrasing, please stop

>> No.3951174

>>3951153
Look, get a copy of ardrey's "territorial imperative", Jolley's "evolution of primate behavior" or even morris's "naked ape" they'll give you a popularized and dumbed down idea of how this actually works. if you want it really simplified get "shadows of forgotten ancestors"

also, why so upset about esoteric details of primate behavior? it seems a weird thing to be passionate about.

>> No.3951175

>>3950826
>this isn't the first comment
>this isn't the last comment

Shame, /lit/

>> No.3951177

>>3951134
You believe that because if the alpha/leader cares about his group then that makes him selfless. The group is there to protect the alpha's own interests, concerning his security and his own wants for territory/power/mates. By your logic any despot/dictator in history was "selfless" because he provided for his people. He is simply exchanging his ability to benefit the group for his own purpose.

>> No.3951181
File: 252 KB, 467x486, tripfag.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3951181

the guy who is saying that Alphas aren't competitive is right.

think back to Deep&Edgy, he was undoubtedly the alpha of /lit/. Was he competitive? No. But there were SO MANY people who tried to compete against him, and he would always brush them off and make them look ridiculous and weak. All he had to do to maintain his alpha status was post that "4CHAN TRIPFAG" image with a masculine statue every now and then to confirm his dominance of the group.
There were always betas trying to compete against D&E, trying desperately to prove he was "wrong" or "stupid". But they always came off in the end as seeming pathetic.

>> No.3951187

>>3951181
did you adore him... a bit... a bit to much?

>> No.3951192

>>3951187
yes, because I'm alpha, and alphas admire other alphas (whereas betas are jealous and resentful of them).

>> No.3951194

>>3951181
hey deep

>> No.3951196

>>3951192
>because I'm alpha, and alphas admire other alphas
does an alpha really need to declare that they're alpha? seems a bit defensive to me.

>> No.3951201

>>3951177
you're still using mostly human social examples, here, and remember that in human societies the alpha and beta roles are very diffuse and attenuated. You tend to see them clearly only in ritualized things like sports, with alpha coaches and beta players, or politics with "alpha" presidents, or the military, with "alpha" generals and beta soldiers.

It's common in literature and myth because it has deep correspondences with how we think, and we tend to genericize things, but the typical human isn't really either, though there are satges in his life where his role is one or the other. and there a re a few people who never go through the beta stage because they are always bigger or have responsibilities for their families thrust upon them while they're young. These people do tend to be aggressive, non joiners, generous and brave, and ofetn looked up to and resneted or admired. but there arent very many of them. and mating has just about nothing to do with it.

>> No.3951202

>>3951196
alphas kill other alphas.

>> No.3951207
File: 1.55 MB, 176x310, 1367424555367.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3951207

this thread is fucking awful

>> No.3951208
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3951208

>>3950901

>using science as a prescriptive, instead of descriptive, tool of analyzing human experience

Look at this plen guys. Pic related, it's you.

>> No.3951214

>>3951202
i thought they admired other alphas lol

>> No.3951217

Why has /lit/ been so shit lately?

>> No.3951218

>>3951214
you can respect your enemy

>> No.3951221

>>3951217
our alpha left us, but don't worry, for it is written that D&E shall come unto us again.
All hail the second coming of Deep&Edgy.

>> No.3951222

>>3951208
not human experience, it's describing generalized higher primate experience, specifically apes, focussing mostly on baboons, chimps, bonobos and gorillas. humans are only peripherally included. read the rest of the thread.

humans only show very diffuse and attenuated forms of beat and alpha behavior. That's why it gets used more as a literary device than anything else: it's basically a metaphor.

>> No.3951225

>>3951218
respect and admiration are very different

>> No.3951226

>>3951201
>mating has nothing to do with being alpha
read a textbook

>> No.3951230

>>3951222

But you're still using science prescriptively. You're saying that upper primates display traits x, y, z, and that therefore we have experiences a, b, c, when you ought to be saying that we have experiences a, b, c, and that therefore it can be deduced that phenomena x, y, z may be occurring.

>> No.3951231

>>3951217
its always been bad.

>> No.3951241

>>3951230
the argument that you're losing is about ape behavior, not noumena. stop trying deflect

>> No.3951244

Jesus is VERY alpha.

>> No.3951247

>>3951226
betas mate, alphas protect. Read Jolley. If the alphas kept their beta mating practices (like they sometimes do in captivity) you start to get a lot of inbreeding and reinforcement of bad recessives.

>> No.3951258

>>3951241

My first post contained the objection that you're using science prescriptively, and my second post was an elaboration of what I meant. There is no deflection here, and I can't possibly imagine how you could mistake that for a deflection unless you're being intentionally sophistic. And I am not losing any argument, because you haven't really engaged me in one yet. If anything, YOU'RE the one doing the deflecting. So either directly refute my accusation that this is prescriptive science, OR try to show that the Copernican Revolution is not correct, OR remain silent. Those are pretty much all your options. Stop deflecting,

>> No.3951263
File: 59 KB, 311x600, Thoth.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3951263

was thoth alpha or beta?

>> No.3951271

>>3951258
the issue you're trying to shoehorn in is irrelevant

>> No.3951279

never forget though that what's being discussed here is basically a metaphor, and a set of narrative tropes. Human societies don't have alph males in the sense that other primate types do. They do have patriarchs, coaches, dads, generals, and they have beta groups like fraternities, sports teams, military divisions, etc., which reflect a little what we see in the great apes. But with people it's more metaphoric than real, which is why it shows up in exaggerated form in stories and legends. King Arthur was the alpha of the round table, jesus wa the alpha of the new testament, etc. But this is like saying you're cock of the walk, or a lone wolf. It's a metaphor based on human perception of animal behavior. The cock of the walk isn't proud: he's displaying for sexual selective purposes, and the lone wolf is actually an outcast with a short lifespan. What we see in animal behavior has more to do with what we want to believe than what's actually there. Bees used to have a king, remember...

>> No.3951282
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3951282

time to derail thread

>> No.3951321

>>3951282
Gooby, pls.

>> No.3951324

>>3951271

That wasn't one of your options. You have just lost the argument. Congrats.

>> No.3951328
File: 43 KB, 548x709, doland.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3951328

>>3951282
Is Doland alpha ?

>> No.3951336
File: 33 KB, 468x326, cookie putin russia.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3951336

>>3951328
wait a sec, are you trying do dominate me again?

>> No.3951440
File: 62 KB, 357x432, yeppper.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3951440

maximum rustle

>> No.3952497

There was a saviour
Rarer than radium,
Commoner than water, crueller than truth;
Children kept from the sun
Assembled at his tongue
To hear the golden note turn in a groove,
Prisoners of wishes locked their eyes
In the jails and studies of his keyless smiles.

The voice of children says
From a lost wilderness
There was calm to be done in his safe unrest,
When hindering man hurt
Man, animal, or bird
We hid our fears in that murdering breath,
Silence, silence to do, when earth grew loud,
In lairs and asylums of the tremendous shout.

There was glory to hear
In the churches of his tears,
Under his downy arm you sighed as he struck,
O you who could not cry
On to the ground when a man died
Put a tear for joy in the unearthly flood
And laid your cheek against a cloud-formed shell:
Now in the dark there is only yourself and myself.

Two proud, blacked brothers cry,
Winter-locked side by side,
To this inhospitable hollow year,
O we who could not stir
One lean sigh when we heard
Greed on man beating near and fire neighbour
But wailed and nested in the sky-blue wall
Now break a giant tear for the little known fall,

For the drooping of homes
That did not nurse our bones,
Brave deaths of only ones but never found,
Now see, alone in us,
Our own true strangers' dust
Ride through the doors of our unentered house.
Exiled in us we arouse the soft,
Unclenched, armless, silk and rough love that breaks all rocks.