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/lit/ - Literature

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3868220 No.3868220 [Reply] [Original]

>want to talk about this book on /lit/
>get attacked by postmodern leftists

Can we talk about this book? Its interesting as fuck but I don't want this thread to dissolve into a shitfest

Oswald Spengler general

>> No.3868229

Well now you're just being deliberately provocative.

Why don't you discuss it on /pol/? I know it's a book, but it's not really literature. We don't discuss cookbooks or manga novels or any of these other things that are, technically, books here either.

>> No.3868249

I wish I could read his rejected dissertation on Heraclitus.

>>3868229
>NNGGGGG THIS DOESN'T CONFORM TO MY WORLDVIEW THEREFORE IT IS OF SUBSTANDARD QUALITY AND I WILL DENIGRATE IT SNOOTILY FROM MY IVORY TOWER

Fuck off liberal, books are books.

>> No.3868251

What did you find interesting about it?
We've had discussions about this that didn't dissolve into shitfests, but they usually didn't start by denigrating the board population.

>> No.3868255

>>3868249

Life is short. I have yet to read a convincing reason to read Spengler.

>> No.3868260

>>3868249
That's really not what I said. Have fun with your life.

>> No.3868262

>>3868229
Are you kidding me? /pol/ is a great board to discuss Spengler if you enjoy the multitudes of retarded neo-nazi sperglords.

Decline of the West surveys the history of civilizations and doubles as a treatise on the philosophy of society and politics. DISCUSS.

>> No.3868263

>>3868255
>>3868229
>>3868251
>>3868260
>Post-modern leftists detected

>> No.3868264
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3868264

>>3868229

>> No.3868266

>>3868220

it's cute that /pol/ told you we freak out over Spengler but we're kind of savvy to the technique at this point

>> No.3868267

>>3868251
Spengler has a sociological thesis like Toynbee's or ibn Khaldun's for the cyclical rise and fall of civilizations and how the various stages can be observed out in distinct artistic, political, and philosophical trends/phases. Huge survey of human history. We don't see stuff like this much anymore, it's all Diamond and Fukuyama tripe for a mass audience.

>>3868260
At least I can have fun with my life. Yours is clearly pathetic and depressing. Loser.

>> No.3868268

Give me the cliffs on this debacle, I've only seem the book mentioned and dismissed. Why is it shit? Why is it not shit?

>> No.3868269

>>3868262
I`m assuming Spengler assumes human cultures are similar, since they follow the same cyclical pattern. How is the fact that Spengler has figured out this pattern actually play in the cycle of civilization itself? Has anyone actively supported Spengler`s view in the past?

>> No.3868276
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3868276

>>3868255
> I have yet to read a convincing reason to read Spengler

Do you have any idea of how retarded that sentence is?

>> No.3868277

>>3868269
I presume that humanity will never become meta-cognitively aware of the actions it keeps repeating over and over again. Our lifespans barely last a century, and our attention spans, especially in this information age, is growing shorter and shorter.

As for your second question, I'm not an expert in the field, I'm afraid.

>> No.3868278

>>3868276
This is a deliberate ploy to try and turn your own thread into a shitfest, just so you can point to it and say "Look! I was right!", isn't it?

>> No.3868286

>>3868277
But that's why people study history. There probably need to be better mechanisms for analyzing events, though. So we can note the logic of history and see the patterns repeating on a lower level than the actual events they represent.

>> No.3868297

>>3868286
Surely that's impossible to do with any real accuracy given that culture and technology and transport make such huge and unpredictable differences?
I don't believe the majority of those who study history do it for that reason.

>> No.3868294

>>3868220
>>want to talk about this book on /lit/
>>get attacked by postmodern leftists
Do you want to discuss it or not? Make up your mind, faggot.

>> No.3868299

>>3868286
An example (maybe not a very good one) of the repetition of historical trends would be the rise of Tyrants through gaining the approval of the lower classes. Plato notes this in the Republic (book VII or VIII i believe). Some examples of this occurring are Julius Caesar, Napoleon, and Hitler. Thanks for answering my question, btw.

>> No.3868302

>>3868286
They need better mechanisms for punishing politicians for their actions! We can have the theory to end all theories of history, yet if the politicians refuse to act upon this wellspring of knowledge, if the people remain numb to this knowledge, then what is the point!?
Human beings are inherently short-sighted simpletons with little appreciation for the long-term consequences of their actions. There are numerous psychological studies that support this.

>> No.3868313

>>3868302
>>3868299
>>3868277
On reflection, Plato`s notion of the cycles of society and Spengler`s aren`t all that different.

>> No.3868316

No op you're a backwards redneck hick, just like Thomas Mann and Wittgenstein.

>> No.3868322

It's a pretty fun book, but no more compelling than any other series of speculations on trends and cycles. We should all be reading it along with Alvin Toffler and Bucky Fuller if you ask me, and I consider myself a pre-modern rightist.

>> No.3868327

>>3868297
>given that culture and technology and transport make such huge and unpredictable differences

maybe. but they end up serving the same ends (desires, sex, shelter, food, etc.)

>> No.3868332

Surprised Vico's New Science hasn't been mentioned since we're talking cycles.

>> No.3868333

>>3868313
>Welp, that wraps it up! If Plato said so, then it is so lol.

IMHO, in order to understand Spengler, you should brush up on Nietzsche and Schopenhauer as well. There is a clear line of thought that passed through them.

>> No.3868339

>>3868299
>the rise of Tyrants through gaining the approval of the lower classes

So whoever /pol/ favors is pretty much the next tyrant.

>> No.3868358

>>3868339
So if Spengler's theory holds, Western Civilisation is currently entering a new stage of Caeserism?

That's a scary thought now that I think about it. Corporatism, the income-gap, and morally bankrupt bankers have really fucked up the lower classes. And it's true that modern art and culture is utterly stagnant. And science has sold itself to money. And postmodern philosophers all suck. Holy shit.

I... I think I might be turning into a /pol/tard...
> HEIL MEIN FUHRER

>> No.3868378

Spengler, or anyone prewar besides Fuller, failed to take into account the way productivity (and Technology in general) would outstrip needs and expectations. That really tipped over the table. Chase's generators will probably bring on at least as big a bump as Henry Ford did, as well, especially in the third world. I'm not sure we've ever been this close to something really new.

>> No.3868397

>>3868358
>Corporatism, the income-gap, and morally bankrupt bankers have really fucked up the lower classes. And it's true that modern art and culture is utterly stagnant. And science has sold itself to money. And postmodern philosophers all suck.
Wow, all of these ideas are incredibly commonplace yet you've convinced yourself they're radical concepts. You really are one of the mindless drones Spengler warned about!

>> No.3868400

>>3868333
>>3868333
I didn`t assume that Spengler or Plato is correct just because they said something. I`m just saying that they`re similar in a very abstract way, not that they`re correct or that Plato is good in any way. Please troll harder.

>> No.3868405

>>3868378
From technology, our capacity to produce has grown. Likewise, our level of self-entitlement and our egos have grown as well. People won't be revolting against the current corrupt democracies over food or water; they will be revolting over political rights and money. And then a tyrant(s) akin to Caesar or Hitler will win the support of the masses, if Spengler's theory holds.

I don't doubt that Spengler, like Marx, failed to account for the ability of Capitalism to constantly reinvent itself in forms of Iphone 1, Iphone 2, Iphone 81927389127, etc. But the Fukuyamaist narrative of "Oh look! Liberal Democracy is the end state of all political states and we will always live in harmony harmony oh love" sounds like a piece of shit to me.

>> No.3868412

>>3868397
Ehh... I was referring to the Caesarism part as the radical concept, not what you listed. It does have some disturbing implications of our future.

Don't you love the ambiguity of English sometimes?

>> No.3868408

>>3868400
Moreover, just because I see a similarity between Plato and Spengler doesn`t mean I`m not aware that Nietzsche had a large influence on Spengler. Don`t just assume people are new comers to philosophy or ignorant just because they mention Plato (an "intro" philosopher)

>> No.3868447

>>3868408
Well, time for me to eat my words. You DO seem knowledgeable.

Plato is simultaneously "intro" and "advanced". You start with Plato, and as you keep going you loop back to him. It's a funny thing.

Nietzsche, in my opinion, is proposing a way out of this cyclical predicament.

And here's a bit of tough love: If you suspect someone is a troll, don't reply. Really, that's the best thing you can do.

>> No.3868455

>>3868405
I think spengler's right about the tyrant, but i think also that by the time the tyrant gains power he'll have about as much real power as the current queen of england. I think power is losing power in the face of consumerism. I think The Feast of Fools is about to become the rule instead of the exception, and that if hitler reappeared and seized power, he'd be opening the new holocaust museum and waving from the hitlermobile and reading kids stories at burn units.

>> No.3868494

>>3868455
Something Spengler often reiterated is that the only thing more powerful than money is blood. I interpret that as the human aspect over the monetary aspect. If you've got billions of disenfranchised people in what is effectively economic slavery by gigantic corporations and banks (Not an unlikely future), then I would presume that the tyrant who seeks power would not act like an ordinary politician.

You know, more like "Eat the Rich! The Tree of Liberty Must Be Watered By the Blood of Patriots!" sorta guy. And he will be welcomed by the lower classes.

Consumerism will obviously play a part, but I think it will probably be transformed into something less individualistic and materialistic, becoming something more communal.

>> No.3868500

>>3868255
Most important historiographer of early 20th century.

>> No.3868600

>>3868494
that's whats changing though. It's becoming the world of complete enfranchisement. We really are moving past scarcity, and toward universal access. It may not be just around the corner, but every decade brings it closer. And as real need recedes and the need for physical property and labor becomes more and more an academic exercise, the powerful become figureheads. It's bread and circuses when there's bread in excess and the circuses are on three hundred channels.
I think overthrowing a welfare state is going to be problematic for anyrevolutionary, and the tyrants are going to be sock puppets for different esoteric interest groups, sppouting slogans and changing nothing.

>> No.3868665

>>3868600
Can you honestly make the claim that Western Civilization, right now, is moving towards complete enfranchisement? Where our world governments are mere puppets of banks, politicians are creating an enormous web of surveillance and sending intelligence agencies to infiltrate and silence dissent? Where physical labor and property are academic exercises for a citizenry entertained by a soma to keep them from thinking political thoughts, yet labour is outsourced to Africa, India, and other developing states? Where no matter who you vote for, both parties turn out to be hopelessly corrupted by bankers? This is not universal access, this is exploitation. It's a goddamn pyramid.

Bread is not going to be in excess. There will be plenty of circuses distracting us, though.

The USA is in a period of stagnation and decline, and China is taking its mantle to become the new global imperial asshole, mimicking the French, Mongols, Portuguese, and the British. A new era of Caeserism might shake things up sufficiently that China may be in trouble.

I agree that many of these tyrants will be sock puppets of other interest groups interested in taking power. But I feel that they'll be changing at least SOMETHING. The 2000's was the decade from hell, and seriously changed how many people viewed the world. Lots of kids just aren't voting anymore. Alot of them seriously think violence is the only solution.

>> No.3868696

>>3868665
there's no pyramid. theres no "throne" as tony stark said in the avengers movie. The puppet analogy uis very accurate: everybody, banks, corporations nations tyrants are about to discover theyrea ll puppets, and that the strings are hopelessly entangled to the point where they'll not be able to make a move themselves, let alone manipulate anybody else. It's already happening, and has been since before viet nam. Monstrous powers expend tremendous amounts of force and money and political power, and nothing happens, nothing changes ata all, while the onrush of technology nd access to media and information and resources just sweeps on like a flood. The rest is just window dressing and shadow show.

>> No.3868715

>>3868696
Can you give me some links? I'd like to do some reading about this before I write another post.

>> No.3868780

>>3868316
This.

>> No.3868795

Wait till you read what he says about philosophy.

He describes post-structuralism perfectly.

>> No.3868827

>>3868220
>get attacked by postmodern leftists for discussing book
>you don't like what i like stop attacking me I'm so oppressed fuck my throathole

>> No.3868844

>>3868220

Why are ignorant rightists so hostile to any philosophy after the 19th century?

Do they just miss being able to openly hate niggers?

>> No.3868958

>>3868405

Who is this Fukuyama character? What has he written about liberal democracy being the end state of humanity?

>> No.3868971

The era of Caesarism has just begun. With the US desperately scrambling to maintain the petrodollar hegemony by means of military dominance, enacting draconian martial law, and paving the way for global government, we are witnessing the largest era of imperialism the world has ever seen

>> No.3868982

>>3868844
Spengler pointed out that all those (nihilistic, atheist, materialist) philosophies are in themselves symptoms of decline.

>> No.3868985

>>3868958
No, fuk a U mamma!

>> No.3868990

The turning point of any civilization to begin its "fall" is marked by an increase of people living in cities, the mockery of traditional values, and the shift from introspective spiritualism to an external materialistic focus. For the west, this was the enlightenment

>> No.3869003

>>3868665

>Lots of kids just aren't voting anymore. Alot of them seriously think violence is the only solution.

If something did happen, which direction do you think it'd come from? The left, the right, something else?

>> No.3869011

>>3868267
>We don't see stuff like this much anymore, it's all Diamond and Fukuyama tripe for a mass audience
I think that's essentially what Spengler's book was when it came out.

>> No.3869025

>>3869003
It comes from the dependence people have on authority. Something bad happens? "Make a law!" Is always the answer for the civilized man. Every disaster, every crisis brings us one step closer to Caesarism

>> No.3869034

I love the quote "imperialism is civilization unadulterated"

>> No.3869054

>yfw Spengler predicted postmodernism

>> No.3869066

>>3869025

I'd rather be a slave to a dictator than capital, at least the former has a spiritual element.

>> No.3869100

>>3868982

who gives a fuck

>> No.3869136

>>3869054
It's fun to play this game. How many things you don't like were
a) predicted by Spengler, and
b) signs of inevitable decadence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spengler%27s_civilization_model

>> No.3869147

>>3869136

wait he didn't even see global capitalism coming? what an idiot

>> No.3869157

>>3869100
Good point. All these observations are pretty abstract and don't really matter

>> No.3869209

>>3869147
He was writing at a time when a whole lotta people thought a socialist utopia was the future. Although obviously he didn't buy that.

>> No.3869219

>>3869209

so what you're saying is he's a myopic product of his time saying nothing but reactionary nonsense that's what I thought too cool

>> No.3869273

>>3869219
No, that's... not quite what I was saying.

>> No.3869498

His Copernican view of history is correct

>> No.3869517

>>3869498

Nothing Vico didn't write about 200 years before him though.

>> No.3869579

Muh traditional values