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/lit/ - Literature

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3863867 No.3863867 [Reply] [Original]

Why did such poorly written books become so popular?

>> No.3863870

What are you talking about? Haven't you ever read The Illiad?

>> No.3863868

They're not poorly written.

>> No.3863873

>>3863867
Because the masses are full of idiots.

>> No.3863874

If something is new and entertaining people don't care that much about the style of writing.

>> No.3863875

The story's a mess, but they're pretty alright for children's books.

>> No.3863876

They're okay, what do you find wrong with them, OP?

I only realised the other day how the narrative arcs for many Harry Potter characters are identical to Star Wars. Harry=Luke, Voldemort=Emperor, Snape=Vader, ObiWan/Yoda=Dumbledore

>> No.3863877

>>3863876
Those are the same character archetypes that have been in like every adventure story ever told.

>> No.3863880

>>3863877

f u vladmir propp, you think i don't know that

>> No.3863882

>>3863876
the protagonist doesn't seem to give a shit about anything besides air soccer until he's six books in. he only wins through sheer luck and the machinations of others, not because of his own smarts, strength, fortitude, etc. harry potter is one of the worst protagonists in history

>> No.3863885

>>3863882

What about all the times he saves his friends

He's got muh Griffyndor bravery.

>> No.3863888 [DELETED] 

>>3863867

I would definitely participate in a thread like this IF we would not be in /lit/, where 99% of the anons are kids who got into reading through Harry Potter --and still do.

Therefore, please allow me to politely sage.

>> No.3863890

>>3863867

Because it's entertaining and well written, so casual parents can enjoy it with their kids. Also it's a brilliant introduction to literature, I couldn't even count how many times I've heard that people started reading because of the Harry Potter series.

>> No.3863893

>>3863880
Obviously you don't if you only just realised.

>> No.3863894

>>3863893

>obviously i am much smarter than you

I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS COOL THAT SNAPE HAS THE SAME ARC AS VADER, FUCKING HELL

GET OFF MY BACK

>> No.3863899

>>3863894
"I just realised that X and Y are similar!"
"Yes, they both belong to a wider archetype"
"FUCK YOU DON'T YOU THINK I KNEW THAT!?"
"Well, no, as you just indicated that you didn't-"
"GET YOU MISTER SMARTY MAN WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR PROBLEM RUBBING IT IN MY FACE THAT I DINT GET NO
FANCY ED-U-KAY SHUN!"
'kay.

>> No.3863901

>>3863899

I can have known about Propp without ever linking Snape and Vader in my mind.

>> No.3863908

1. They aren't that badly written.
2. You're looking at the writing from an adults point of view, the books are for children.
3. Rowling has an ability to make you feel very immersed in the story without heavy detail.
4. She made good characters and an interesting world.

>> No.3863909

>>3863901

You can have but it's unreasonable to get all pissy about it.

>> No.3863910

>>3863874
People as in in mostly kids?
The goosebumps stories are written terribly and are idiotic, we mostly all still loved them as kids and had no idea at the time how badly written they were.

>> No.3863916

>>3863882
How long ago did you read the books? From book one Harry is depressed as hell. He's been told his whole life he is useless, he has no confidence then one day he finds out he has a natural ability with flying and playing quidditch.

He's constantly got in the back of his head that a guy that killed his parents wants to kill him and he has henchmen that want to kill him too. You wouldn't want something that makes you happy like Quidditch to get your mind off it for a while?

He's also a kid. I'm sure you weren't a perfect golden boy at his age.

>> No.3863921

You're probably older. The series got me, and many of my friends, into reading. It's still a series that I can read now and appreciate.
I'm 19, by the way.

>> No.3863920

>>3863916
>implying Harry Potter is a real boy

>> No.3863918

>>3863890
For children's books it's writing is pretty great, take another book like Holes as an example.

>> No.3863922

>>3863910
This.

>> No.3863943

>>3863867
Because they are good books

>> No.3863945

>>3863867

That's the power of marketing today. The funny thing about Harry Potter, nearly all the awards and honours, the series as accumulated, most of them center around the book advocating literacy or selling well enough. There are almost no awards or honours specifically pointing to the literary merit.

'Children's literature' is a market before it is a genre. Harry Potter, since day one has been aggressively marketed towards middle class children, especially the anglo-saxon variety i.e. white kids. This kind of marketing is effective because it focuses, not on the widest consumer, but the most hegemonic consumer. White kids have exponentially more buying power than any other. They have extremely predictable buying behavior. And they are more able to effectively promote it socially.

>> No.3863954

>>3863920
Implying you never compare yourself to fictional characters.

>> No.3863977

Because it's children's fantasy. It's aimed towards pre-teens. It's easy to read, a lot of stuff happens, simple characters with understandable motivations. Harry Potter isn't by any means bad books.

>> No.3863979

>>3863920
A real human bean.

>> No.3863993

Not completely related, but I feel like too much children's fiction is based primarily on escapism. Harry Potter is no exception. He doesn't like his life, and he's suddenly whisked away to a place where everyone loves him. I feel like there needs to be more childrens' novels about facing your problems instead of running away from them. Bud, Not Buddy is a good example, I think

>> No.3863999

>>3863993
>there needs to be more childrens' novels about facing your problems instead of running away from them

Some feel that would encourage the behavior of questioning authority.

>> No.3864006

>>3863993
Where everyone loves him, minus a man that killed his parents and wants to kill him, also all of that man's followers. Not to mention Malfoy hating him etc and Harry's still depressed at Hogwarts.

>> No.3864011

>>3863867
They were such magical pieces when I first read them. Kinda grew out of the whole thing by the fourth one and resorted to watch my childhood dream be butchered on screen. Well, a plus is the world know Emma Watson, and the downside is everyone's seen Daniel Radcliffes gimped cock. Not a bad trade I'd say.

>> No.3864063

>>3863867
>Why did such poorly written books ...
They're not poorly written, they're average.
>...become so popular?
Dumb luck. There are a thousand and one similar children's fantasy books.

>> No.3864098

ITT: Jelly amateur writing dilettantes.

>> No.3864110

(1) it is a children's book and children do not care for literary value.
(2) the characters were very loveable.
(3) it was imaginative and fun
(4) because fuck you

>> No.3864112

Because they tell children that they can be incompetent idiots and still be Winners.

>> No.3864114
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3864114

>poorly written
>for kids

It's pretty decent for kid literature. I don't understand why supposedly adult and mature people get so pissed off about children literature.

Is there something wrong with you? Do you get mad at Disney as well?

I'm a teacher and I see kids of 10 reading those thick Harry Potter books: my reaction isn't to become irrationally angry. I'm glad they're reading and enjoying it. If they can realise at this age that reading is interesting and enjoyable, a major step is taken in the right direction.

No thanks to you and your sort, though. It's because of fucktards like you that so many people stay off books.

Stop acting like reading is your exclusive club, and stop assuming everyone everywhere is an exact copy of you. People have different ages, children are children, stop judging them as though they were 25, for fuck's sake.

Grow the fuck up.

>> No.3864125

>>3864114
>It's pretty decent for kid literature. I don't understand why supposedly adult and mature people get so pissed off about children literature.
If you think that writing 'kid literature' is less demanding or requires less literary skill than writing 'adult literature', then you're on the wrong board. Go back to /b/ or /fit/ or whatever you crawled out of.

>> No.3864130

>>3864125
Not the poster of this comment- but I think he's saying, and is right to say, that what is written for children should be judged very differently to what is not.
and the best judge of a piece of writing written for children is a child, and given Rowling's success it seems that children favour her writing. Cunt.

>> No.3864140

>>3864130
>and the best judge of a piece of writing written for children is a child, and given Rowling's success it seems that children favour her writing.
Children are stupid little fuckers. If you asked children their opinion, they'd eat exclusively jelly worms and ice-cream all day, erryday. Doesn't mean that jelly worms are the best, award-winning food ever.

Also, ask any child about how they like school. Should we abandon education now?

>> No.3864152

>>3864125

I never said it was less demanding. Your reading skills: not good.

>> No.3864159

>>3864140
I would eat exclusively jelly worms and ice-cream all day if I could, too. Doesn't mean I can't recognize great literature.

>> No.3864160

>>3864152
>Apply Aloe directly to burn

>> No.3864198

Oh my god I would make such love to J.K Rowling. Push her onto the bed, force her legs apart, make out with her secondary pair of lips for a bit. Kiss my way up to her face, suck on her nipples on the way. Push my tongue into her mouth and my cock into her pussy. Ravage her.

>> No.3864209

nobody liked the Harry Potter books thats why they sold poorly. They only sold 450 million, when there's 7 billion people in the world.

>> No.3864367

theyre childrens books who the fuck cares

>> No.3864377

>>3864114
>I'm a teacher and I see kids of 10 reading those thick Harry Potter books
>measuring how much respect to give literature by the pound
Chekhov is a short story hack for babies.

>> No.3866150

>>3863910
R.L. Stine admitted they were bad at least.

>> No.3866155

>>3864198
you should write erotic fiction

>> No.3866172

I dunno. I couldn't even get past the first chapter and I love fireworks. Neil Gaiman is more fun to read when it comes to fantasy.

>> No.3866293
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3866293

Harold Bloom's review of Harry Potter in response to those saying it's well-written or original:

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~rebeccal/comp/108f10/Assignments/BloomArticle.pdf.pdf

>> No.3866304

>>3863882
>complaining because the protagonist isn't a mary sue who is unrealistically perfect at everything he attempts

It's not like it isn't addressed in the books that he wouldn't be anywhere without all the help he gets from other people. I think that's part of the reason behind all his angst in the fifth book.

>> No.3866332

>>3863874
Well, come on. It isn't that new.

>>3863867
Prose isn't everything, as every unpublished /lit/ tryhard will soon discover. The whole trick to writing is to appeal to some innate, primal want of the readership.
Create an easy life with a struggle; create easy sex with a struggle; create something that takes away the pain of logic, reality, strife, with a struggle. Make these half-believable and you have a story.

>> No.3866339

>>3863882
To be fair, I think him being a smug, uncaring ass is part of the point.

>> No.3866354

>>3863945

Did you just read the first two chapters of a marketing textbook or something?

>> No.3866356

>>3866293
>http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~rebeccal/comp/108f10/Assignments/BloomArticle.pdf.pdf
God, that is sickeningly retarded.
>This stuff is not entirely novel.
What a surprise
>the first book is based on other books
Never before has a good book been based on other things. That's why the first instances of written word are completely ununderstandable and based only on things which have no basis in real thought.
>The prose is not demanding
Welcome to the evolution of every book ever written in its time that wasn't try-hard shite.

>> No.3866366

>>3863909
but he didn't... he just said a few posts above yours that he thought it was cool. I don't understand people that are more interested in winning the argument than in finding and facing truth...

>> No.3866372

>>3863920
now you're being dumb... he merely said that it's a reasonable portrayal of a kid that's going through all that. also, think of people that you know that lost their parents when young and didn't have the luck to end up in a family that truly cared for them. now make them carry an enormous responsibility. you will realize that Harry's distance toward the main issue of the series, his need of getting away from it is a viable response. why wouldn't I be resentful about holding such a responsibility when no one wanted to take care of me and help me? as it turns out though, his friends and mentors DO want to and DO help him out, and that's what makes the difference I think. I'm not saying it's a marvelous book, just that it's a reasonable character development

>> No.3866371

>>3863999
>Some feel that would encourage the behavior of questioning authority.

>implying that's a bad thing

>> No.3866375

>>3866371
I don't think he implied that at all.

>> No.3866376
File: 485 KB, 1056x1080, le question pls.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3866376

>>3866293
>Harold Bloom

>> No.3866377

>>3864112
Harry is not incompetent. Merely average and his friends both help him with their own abilities and help him develop his own. Plus, at crucial points his determination or will, however you want to put it, let him keep on hanging. Those are kind of main points.

>> No.3866379

>>3866356
Stay buttmad.

>> No.3866381

>>3866376
He has more literary clout than anyone in this thread as well as anyone in the mainstream press. His assessment is worth noting.

>> No.3866382

>>3866379
>stay buttmad
Being this obviously jealous at JK Rowling's literary superiority

>> No.3866386

>>3866371
It is if you're in a position of authority

>> No.3866384

>>3864160
he's right, he didn't say that at any point

>> No.3866389

>>3863945
THIS

>> No.3866390

>>3866381
however much I respect Bloom the little assessment on that link seemed really scarce and unenlightening. Also, even if we admit that his view on the first book (the only one he's reviewing) is worth noting, one of his first points is defeated when you look at the whole series: he says there is not even educational value in it but the series does have educational value (that has been noted already in this thread)

>> No.3866396

>>3866390
Or it could simply be that he has higher standards when it comes to "educational value."

>> No.3866401

>>3866396
he doesn't state what he means by "educational value" on the paper so that only aids my point about how scarce the critique really is. Again, I do respect Bloom but this assessment in particular doesn't seem useful at all. Take in mind also that he's admitting that's the only book (the first one) he read for the assessment so it can't be that he has higher standards when it comes to educational values than those that the series portrays. Why can't that be? because he didn't read the series, he read the first book and he's criticizing the first book

>> No.3866406

>>3863882
luck to get out of situations is simply not good storytelling.

http://www.pixartouchbook.com/blog/2011/5/15/pixar-story-rules-one-version.html

>> No.3866409

>>3866401
Why are you so convinced that anything in the subsequent Potter books has (more) educational value? If anything they become increasingly incoherent.

>> No.3866612

>>3866339
Harry isn't smug at all though, he rarely ever boasts. He doesn't have much confidence in himself and he cares about his friends a lot. Sounds like we read different books.

>> No.3866615

>>3866372
thank you for responding to that guy, I couldn't be bothered talking to an idiot.

>> No.3866887

Smug he may or may not be, but that Potter certainly is one nosey little fucker. When reading the earlier books I often found myself hoping that Ron or Hermione would, just for once, say 'You know what Hazza, maybe you could just, this once, kinda mind your own business, and do your homework, eh?'

But alas.

>> No.3866935

>>3863945
>White kids have exponentially more buying power than any other
>exponentially
Stop using words you don't understand.