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3819578 No.3819578 [Reply] [Original]

What was Mr. Antolini doing to Holden when he was sleeping in his apartment? Was Holden being paranoid by thinking it was something perverted? Is Mr. Antolini attracted to Holden? Was it really nothing?

Discussion about Chapter 24 in The Catcher in the Rye

>> No.3819580

Salinger believes there is a direct correlation between homosexuality and men having older partners. Holden's other friend he meets at the bar also has an older girlfriend, and he is also described as "a little bit flitty".

>> No.3819585

It was fatherly love. He was stroking Holden's hair in a concerned manner. Upon awakening, Holden's fear of emotional attachment and paranoia cause him to abandon his teacher and run away.

Holden is obviously a flawed narrator

>> No.3819588

I accidentally read a slash fic about this but I've never read Catcher in the Rye

so maybe?

>> No.3819603

>>3819585
Hadn't thought about it like that but that makes a lot of sense.

>> No.3819607

Does Holden have sexual feelings for Mr. Antolini or is this a bit of a stretch?

>> No.3819616

My interpretation of the matter is that Mr. Antolini cared about Holden and felt he was a role model in the situation. Holden hadn't really had that kind of the relationship with anyone besides his dad so that minute anyone else acted like his Dad he automatically associated that with romantic instead of fatherly.

>> No.3819636

>>3819580
When did Salinger say this; in an interview?

>> No.3819651

>>3819636
I inferred it from his writing.

>> No.3819659

>>3819585
I would agree with this take on the scene.

Holden's flaw as a narrator is realistic though and helps to show him as an adolescent who starts to believe that the only people out there who seem to understand him and wish to help him have ulterior motives, which is how many adolescents feel during similar struggles.

>> No.3819663

My theory is that Holden subconsciously wanted to leave and he imagined the pat on the head.
Holden was just trying to find an excuse to leave and he gave his sleep exhausted mind the idea that Antolini was a pedophile.

>> No.3819681

OP here. Wanted to throw this on the table and I quote: "That kind of stuff's happened to me about twenty times since i was a kid. I can't stand it." Holden is known for exaggerating but was he actually sexually abused as a boy? Do you think his father sexually abused him?

>> No.3819695

>>3819681
That's clearly exaggeration. He talks like that throughout the book and it's just a typical 16-year-old boy exaggerating shit for kicks. There were probably only like one or two remotely similar incidents where maybe a male adult was a little too affectionate with Holden and it freaked him out. Don't take everything so literally.

>> No.3819702

>>3819681
Kind of brings up even more questions too, as from what I've studied of Salinger the "author" of Catcher is supposedly Buddy Glass, who is kind of an extension of part of Salinger's personality.

>> No.3819717

>>3819585
I'm pretty sure this guy is right but don't forget that Mr. Antolini had been drinking a bit before that incident. Holden gives a long anecdote about how empathetic the guy was when he removed his coat and used it to pick up the bloody kid who jumped out the window. It was probably a combination of Mr. Antolini being a little too affectionate and Holden over-exaggerating because he was exhausted in a very sleepy haze, having just woken up from being touched.

>> No.3819729

>>3819695
Yes, i realize it's an exageration but im wondering what the other incidents were

>> No.3819742

>>3819702
Salinger said the book was somewhat autobiographical and if you listen to interviews with people from his childhood, they state that a lot of the characters were based on real people or combinations of them. Stradlater was a combination of a few guys and Ackley was a real dude with a different name.

I think it's pretty clear that Holden had to be largely a self-insertion. There are too many things there that are too fleshed out to be purely fabricated. I imagine that only Phoebe, DB, and Allie weren't based on real people. DB was the writer that Salinger wishes he could be and that he could see himself becoming - at first, a writer of beautiful short stories and then some money chasing whore out in Hollywood. Phoebe was crucial to the story's theme and Allie had a similar role. Allie might have also represented the people who died too early in Salinger's life, maybe guys from the army who died while he was fighting in the war.

>> No.3819767

>>3819742
Ya that's what I was going for with that comment. Reminds me of the (I believe true) anecdote about Salinger almost allowing a play based on the work only if he himself played Holden

>> No.3819796

>>3819767
Catcher is my favorite book and one quote I really liked was the stuff about how sometimes you read a book so good that you feel like you're best buddies with the author and you could just write him a letter or something. I know Salinger admired Hemingway and arranged to meet him during the war. I never connected with any book like Catcher and I really wanted to contact Salinger, but it's too bad he was a bitter douche.

On the other hand, I think I know how he was feeling. I felt a lot like Holden and if I didn't have the guts to blow my brains out, then I'd just try to make a small fortune doing something I love so that I can live comfortably in seclusion for the rest of my life. I wouldn't deal with other people and that's what Salinger chose to do, and I guess I don't blame him. I don't think he felt happy about whoring out his literature but he probably just had the goal of making a good amount of cash and then peacing the fuck out.

>> No.3819810

>>3819796
Ya I feel similarly about Salinger. It's funny how the men whose heads you most want to get inside are most often those that want none of it. I have the "biography" his daughter wrote siting near me but I'm still debating whether or not to read it considering it's clear she didn't get him at all.

>> No.3819815

>>3819681

This further highlights Holden's fear of emotional detachment. After the death of his brother, Holden is thrown into a state of pseudo-adulthood, experiencing no transition. He feels he has to function as an adult yet has no concept of what adulthood is, hence his capricious visit to NYC, in which he attempted to live as an adulthood. His estranged concept distances him from others and Holden is clearly dealing with massive amounts of undealt grief after his brother's death. Holden perverts everything around him and distrusts adults because he has no idea what adulthood is. In his claim that perversion seems to follow him, Holden is only revealing his undeveloped worldview.

>> No.3819818

>>3819585
That was my first impression. I decided to give it a little thought as I ate my pork-chop and I came up with an addition to this take.

Holden is a child of the soil of NYC.

He's a tough-guy from the bronx/brooklyn/queens all rolled up into one. I never appreciated the NYC culture as much as I do until I read this book. My father has been living in NYC for 30+ years, and I never noticed how similar the nuances of his speech are to the native NYC inhabitants.

It's really good fun, it's culture. Holden is totally immersed in this culture and persona, as you can tell from the back and forth he has between the cabby "Wow your such a touchy guy, I mean really, you should calm down." etc.

Back to this passage in question: the typical NYC persona is one of ultra masculinity--showing affection between men is considered "mushy" and/or "faggy". Hence why Holden refuses to accept any sort of paternal affection and brushes it off as "pervy" to reconcile his conflicted psyche.

-One part of psyche with daddy issues.
-One part of his psyche which tells him he should always be a tough guy who never cries or needs support.
-And various other parts I'm sure.

Just building on your foundations Anon :)

>> No.3819824

>>3819818
Holden isn't from NYC. He had only visited the city a couple of times. He predominately lived in boarding schools.

>> No.3819896

>>3819824

>family's apartment is in NYC

u wot m9

>> No.3819897

>>3819810
>It's funny how the men whose heads you most want to get inside are most often those that want none of it.

Well said. I got a biography about him a while ago and I was keen on reading it but I've been putting it off for a long time now. It seems like people who feel the same way about Catcher and Salinger are in the minority based on the huge number of people I spoke to about the book.

I have a really simple way of seeing if people were impacted by the book in the same way I was. I ask them about the part where Holden is talking about how his mom got him the wrong pair of ice skates. If they didn't understand or remember that part, then they're usually the kind of person who says "meh the book was shit, no plot Holden was a whiny faggot and spoiled brat" etc. I've also read that Salinger started losing his mind later in life so I don't have too much interest in him after he became an old recluse. I really expected him to be on the list of authors who would off himself instead of dying naturally.

>> No.3819903

>>3819896
Not that guy but even though his family currently lives in NYC, Holden isn't really a New Yorker. He's a northern New England kind of guy, and the previous poster was right - Holden spent most of his time at out-of-state boarding schools rather than in Jew York.

>> No.3819978

>>3819897
I really like the book and i sort of remember that part. Didn't his mom give him the wrong kind of ice skates but he wasn't mad or anything just disappointed that someone would go through the trouble to give him something but if she knew him better, she would've gotten him a different pair of skates? Why do you find that to be such an important part of the novel? It's just barely touched along with Holden's many other thoughts

>> No.3820027
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3820027

a thread with a couple decent readings? i'm a little bit proud. and no pissing contest? keep up the good work ladies.

>> No.3820108

>>3819978
That part is important because it tells you more about Holden's character than damn near the rest of the book combined. The fact that his mom got him the wrong kind of skates is secondary to the fact that he felt guilty as hell that his mom went through any trouble at all to pick up skates for him. Them being the wrong skates just added to his guilt since he didn't exactly need that specific type, and thus he probably couldn't make the absolute most out of the gift.

He's the kind of guy who gets depressed about receiving gifts and would rather hand them out himself, predominantly because he's empathetic as hell. He got a real kick out of picking that record up for Phoebe, and when it broke, he wasn't sad because he lost his investment - he was sad because Phoebe wouldn't get her present. He also felt like he was at rock bottom for taking Phoebe's Christmas money not because he was broke, but because he was taking money, especially from his kid sister.

Contrast it with something like this - "Wow dad thanks for the Mercedes. It's the wrong color - I wanted silver and you got me black but thanks anyway I guess." And then the fact that the car was a gift from her dad never crosses her mind ever again - just the fact that he got her the wrong color because he "never listens."

>> No.3820115

>>3819607
nah, that sounds like a stretch. i think its more plausible that holden deep down looks up to him as a male role model for being an adult, but he's attached to his emotional distance to he can't openly accept his own feelings, and pushes him away, calls him phony. but just look at the situation: holden still trusts him, talks to antolini, and leans on him when he is in trouble or lost.

cognitive dissonance. there might be a more appropriate term tho

>> No.3820121

>>3820108

There are far more important parts. Denying Sophie when she begs to run away with him, the flashback in which he punches holes in the garage, the instance in which he recalls the exact date and time of his brother's death, the snowball out the window, the refusal of the prostitue.

The ice skates reveals a part of Holden's character that, unless the reader is dense as fuck, should have already gathered. In no way is it a pivotal point.

>> No.3820127

>>3820115
I don't think he ever calls Antolini a phony. He's one of the few guys in the world who Holden seems to respect, and rightfully so.

Just put yourself in Holden's shoes. You're about the catch hell from your parents, you haven't slept in a really long time, you got whooped by a pimp after he swindled you out of the little cash you had, and you turn to the only dude who can give you some shelter at this point. You finally fall asleep only to be awaken a few hours later by this man touching you, and it's completely unexpected and you're still half asleep and tried as hell. Holden later felt guilty about accusing Mr. Antollini of being perverted but the situation was still sketchy and awkward, especially for someone as emotionally restrained as Holden.

>> No.3820140

>>3820121
There are more important parts. What I'm saying is that's one extremely important detail in the book. I didn't ever say it was the most important part of the book. It's just a detail that should have jumped out at anyone who thinks they can understand or relate to Holden, or at the very least, understand what Salinger was getting at when he wrote the book. Maybe I'm just not good at articulating myself but I think you kind of missed what I was trying to say.

>> No.3820153

>>3820140
Different bits are gonna stick out to different people. I think it's pretty arrogant of you to say "unless you picked up on the same bit as I did you don't ~truly get~ the novel like I did".
Yes, that says a lot about Holden's character, but the novel is packed full of little blink-and-you-miss-it details like that, all with a lot of depth to them.

>> No.3820164
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3820164

>>3820140

>it tells you more about Holden's character than damn near the rest of the book combined

I must have missed your point

>> No.3820212

In accepting Jerome's work as a complete banquet we must acknowledge his ability, PREFASH, to make spaghetti appear from character's pockets before the boards imaged. In fact, he freaked the normies so hard with PERFECTDAY that he had to recount it later by passing that to Buddy Glass hisself, who is the JD that scrubbed the shit out of Dallas sets.

So, sexually ambiguous moments are present in Salinger? Or you're a pervert because:

You want to make human acts of intimacy sexual when this is a man who stormed Normandy. And I'm not talking LOONEY LOONEY LOONEY Feldman Normandy. I'm talking, he did that shit.

Esme, etc, all display the true innocence of childhood as well as the inability for peace, rest, stasis.

Ya'll bowling balls make me tired.

enough of me

>> No.3820224

>>3820212
Am i missing something?

>> No.3820241

>>3820153
You're clearly not reading what I said.

>I have a really simple way of seeing if people were impacted by the book in the same way I was.

Therefore, if that part didn't jump out at you, then you probably didn't appreciate the book in the same manner as me, as in you liked it for different reasons. If liking the same thing for a different reason is arrogant, then sure, I'm arrogant as fuck and I don't really care.

>>3820164
What is exaggeration? And just because that one part of the book tells you a lot about Holden, I never said you couldn't deduce his character from other parts of the book. Can't believe people are getting so touchy over things I said said or implied.

>> No.3820362

>>3819663
Even if the petting was imaginary, the fact that Mr. Antolini was sitting right next to Holden "admiring" him(Antolini's own description of the situation, I actually took down my copy of the book to check this) with a glass of scotch in his hand, after Holden had already fallen asleep, AND Mr. Antolini went into his own quarters was certainly not a tired hallucination. This must have meant that Mr. Antolini pretended to go to sleep, waited until Holden was still and quiet, and returned to admire the boy in his sleep. Whether or not the petting was real doesn't change the fact that Mr. Antolini kinda pulled a creep move, and Holden has every right to be at least A LITTLE unnerved by the awakening.

>> No.3820374

>>3820027
Yeah I'm also impressed with this thread, especially since the story in question is one that's known to have so many folks lining up to talk about how terrible and/or pretentious they found it to be.

>> No.3820740

>>3819978
>but if she knew him better, she would've gotten him a different pair of skates?
lol you are exactly the kind of person whose misreading of the book makes people think it was shit
fuck you

>> No.3820753

>>3819588
>accidentally

>> No.3822075

>>3819796
Imagine every dumb kid in the world wanting to talk to you after you live through a horrific World War, a general paranoia about your Jewish background, and other alienation experience.

Then watch some "bitter douche" have an appopriate social defense mechanism.

What if every aspie, bronie, trans but the ones who are melodramatic and outlandish and NONACTION oriented, and how they'd glom on and barnacle.

Thinking the first thing JD would wantr to know about them is all that David Copperfield kinda...

Anyway
>>3819767

Please what source? I have read A LOT of stuff about Salinger as well as stuff about his stories, and I have NEVER heard this one.

How about ol' Margaret's Dreamcatcher.