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/lit/ - Literature

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3769274 No.3769274 [Reply] [Original]

Hi /lit/, I just finished reading this book. I really enjoyed it.

I'm looking for books similar to it.

Specifically for those who haven't read the pic related, I'm looking for books that:

- don't necessarily have a plot and just present a thesis about society, culture, philosophy, etc.
- present their thesis, supporting evidence, and give credit where it's due to the opposing side; basically lets you decide if they're right/wrong
- enjoyable, aren't we all looking for that in a book?

Thanks. Looking forward to checking out your suggestions, /lit/.

>> No.3769314

Infinite Jest has a very similar theme

Oh and if you think that Postman isn't trundling you along on his argumentative trolley-rail's and only letting you "decide" what's right or wrong in the same way that ghosts bursting out to scare you in a haunted house aren't scripted, then you're a chump.

>> No.3769334

>>3769314

Why does that make one a chump? Do you mean to say that his rhetoric is very one-sided or stubborn? Or that everything in the book is objective fact and should be taken as such, and not argued?

>> No.3769343

>>3769334
He's saying that the book is designed to present a guided logical progression towards accepting the author's ideas, and that anyone who disagrees with that is a chump.

I'm fine with this (and Infinite Jest, by extension, and for that matter any other novel) presenting the author's opinions as fact in a roundabout way, though. We are all hopefully intelligent enough to be able to disagree with someone else's opinions without being guided to do so.

>> No.3771002

>>3769274
zygumunt bauman wrote shitload of books like that

>> No.3771025
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3771025

>>3771002
>zygumunt bauman
Don't you ever recommend that son of a bitch again

>> No.3771127

>>3769314
>Infinite Jest has a very similar theme
No, it's a work of fiction, that makes a social commentary. Like most other works of fiction. There is no thesis, no 'big' arguement, no presentation of evidence. It's a long and boring book made 'poopular' by some middle-age-emo's suicide.

You're an idiot, looking to troll.

>> No.3771130

>>3769274

Read Chomsky. A true god among men.

>> No.3771135

>>3771127
>There is no thesis, no 'big' arguement, no presentation of evidence


>implying novels can't have a thesis, make an argument or present evidence

Are you a STEM major by any chance?

>> No.3771143

>>3771135

Nah, he's a dork only.

>> No.3771223

>>3769274
Republic by Plato
Capital by Karl Marx
Crowds and Power by Elias Canetti
The Human Condition by Hannah Arendt
Civilization and Its Discontents by Sigmund Freud
The Sane Society by Erich Fromm
Eros and Civilization by Herbert Marcuse
Beast and Man The Roots of Human Nature by Mary Midgley
Manufacturing Discontent: The Trap of Individualism in Corporate Society by Michael Perelman
Social and Cultural Dynamics by Pitirim A. Sorokin

>> No.3771230

>>3771135
>implying you don't want to admit you're incapable of knowing the difference between a thesis and work-of-fiction's central message.

Do you even lit?

>> No.3771246

>>3771230

Not that guy, but please explain to me the difference between theme and thesis.

>> No.3771305

>>3771246
Difference is presentation and context...

Thesis is a straightforward proposition usually in a work of nonfiction, like a scholarly book or an essay.

Theme is a central message, or the big takeaway, usually in a work of fiction like a novel, or a short story.

Both can be arguments. The presentations make for a major difference. One is presented in a manner that is upfront and straight to the point. The other tells a story to make an argument--and is never ultimately clear. Can you guess which is which?

>> No.3771320

>>3771230
>>3771305

This idiot thinks that having a theme and a thesis is mutually exclusive.

Infinite Jest has a thesis.

>> No.3771375

>>3771320
No, Infinite Jest does not, you fucking dolt. Show me where in the book it says something along the lines: 'I make the argument that...' or 'This work will argue that...'. It doesn't, it's a fictional work DFW uses to vehicle his ideas, similar in the fashion of Ayn Rand and her novel Atlas Shrugged. They may have philosophical messages, but present no clear straightforward argument for something. Why? Because they're stories, long narrative pieces meant as dramatic presentation.

Infinite Jest does not have a thesis, it has a theme or a central message.

>> No.3771410

NEIL Postman I thought that his name was PAT

>> No.3771416
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3771416

keynes - economic consequences of the peace
>versailles treaty is self-contradictory
>will destroy fragile weimar democracy
>t. keynes 1919
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economic_Consequences_of_the_Peace

morozov - the net delusion
>online activism is overrated
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber-utopianism

konrad lorenz - on aggression
>His 'hydraulic' model, of aggression as a force that builds relentlessly without cause unless released, remains less popular than a model in which aggression is a response to frustrated desires and aims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Aggression

wilhelm reich - mass psychology of fascism
>lower middle class was decisive
>orthodox marxists were unable to understand their contrahent
>needs moar sexual revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mass_Psychology_of_Fascism

>> No.3771431

>>3771320
They are. One is explicit, the other implicit. It would behoove you to know when and where those terms are admissible. That is if you wish to pass a basic English Composition course

>> No.3771441

>>3771305

Thanks for the clarification.

One question though. If a work of nonfiction has an implied thesis not explicitly stated within the work, is it a theme?

>> No.3771453

>>3771375
Marathe actually voices the thesis around page 300 or so of the book, when they're talking about positive and negative liberty.

>>3771431
Thanks, but I've actually finished all the requisite coursework for my PhD so I don't think I'll be needing to pass any "basic english composition" courses any time soon.

>> No.3771498

>>3771441
implied thesis

There is no such thing--you're thinking of either a message or the theme.

A thesis is a clear argument for something--unless the author explicitly states he/she is arguing for something it's really just YOU inserting a thesis and using the author's work at hand to make that.

A theme is what can be argued what the story is implying. Again, something you'd have to argue with the author's work

One is explicit, the other implicit; one is a thesis, the other is a theme. One is presented up-front and is complete, the other is dramatic, vague and implied.

Any degree variance is just you mucking terms and confusing things

>> No.3771510

Society of the Spectacle
The Medium is the Message

Although not books, look into Adam Curtis documentaries.

>> No.3771520

>>3771498

Thanks.

>> No.3771540

>>3771453
>Marathe
That's a character and not the author you fucking dolt. If you think that's the thesis, then where's the thesis DFW is presenting with the story of Marathe presenting his thesis? Where does DFW explicitly state a thesis, where does he explicitly mark out what he,DFW, intends to prove. If you think that's a thesis, then what's the thesis for 299 pages before that?

He has a theme, but that's not the same as a thesis--one is mostly YOU inferring what DFW meant, the other is the authors actual words making a clear argument

>> No.3771598

>>3771540
>That's a character and not the author you fucking
You probably think Plato's use of Socrates and Kierkegaard's use of his characters imply no thesis whatsoever, too.

>> No.3771727

>>3771598
They don't. They make arguments in a dialogue fashion--and by their qualities are philosophical arguments--that touch upon concerning things such as "what is justice?" If you think Plato has a thesis, it's obvious you don't know what an aporetic argument is. Plato's works have themes, not theses.

>> No.3771738 [DELETED] 

>>3771727
>Google "aporetic argument"
>~206 results
What

>Plato's works have themes, not theses.
It has both

>> No.3771741

>>3771727
>Google "aporetic argument"
>~206 results
What

>> No.3771744

>>3771741
I got About 8,010 results on startpage.com

>> No.3771766

>>3771741
>aporetic argument
Aporia, you fucking moron! The Euthyphro dialogue is an example of an aporetic argument. A philosophical conundrum, with no absolute resolve.

Go back to reading your Infinite-Jest-fandom, and stay away from real people--you're not ready.