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/lit/ - Literature

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3752509 No.3752509 [Reply] [Original]

Hey /lit/, how come there's never any discussion on Tolstoy here?

Granted, I'm not on /lit/ that often, but it's struck me as pretty weird.

>> No.3752512

>>3752511
Seriously?

Even Anna Karenin?

>> No.3752511

>>3752509

Too long for /lit/ to handle.

>> No.3752518

>>3752509
lets talk about tolstoy right now

>> No.3752540

>>3752518
Okay.

Which of his characters did you like and which did you dislike? I mean, characters you genuinely disliked or liked. Not those on which your opinion changes over the course of his works.

Since they're all so human and normal it's hard to judge them in such a fashion.

I hated Pierre, he was annoying as hell. So was Levin, when he started speaking about agriculture or his views on politics or something. Pretty much anything which had to do with Tolstoy himself giving us his views on things.

For all his talents as a writer he sure must be the most annoying dinner guest to have.

>> No.3752564

>>3752540
i havent read anna karenina. i have only read war and peace.

i identified a lot with andre, who is the other 'tolstoy' character. i can be a prideful intellectual, i cant stay committed to women, and i try to pity and have respect for my father, but its difficult because i find him so ridiculous.

what didnt you like about pierre? at the beginning he seems innocent enough to me. just bumbling and completely lacking in confidence. the scene when he gets wounded in battle i found to be very enlightening when i read it (i was 18). i find it hard to swallow the idea of "un-self-consciousness," which is what i think tolstoy calls it after pierre has his transformation in prison (walking with his shoes off and being a noble savage and whatnot).

sorry if im not speaking accurately about the book. it feels like a long time since i read it

>> No.3752586

>>3752564
Yeh, don't worry, I forgot 80% of War and Peace a month after I read it.

I loved Andrei as well, but that's mostly because my life is so similar to his. Long story. I also loved his cynical, realistic side, which made a great contrast with the idealistic, sort of "holy" environment Tolstoy tends to create. Don't know how to quite explain what I mean, but I think you get it.

Pierre....I don't know, he just seems annoying to me. The whole existential crisis thing takes far too long and I hate the episode with the freemasons. I guess what I hate most is the whole thing with Helene, I hate how he just lets her live her shitty life and fool everyone and take advantage of him, even after the whole separation thing.

>> No.3752600

>>3752586
andrei learns to temper his cynicism though. i read his cynicism as a flaw. he was too rational and had too much confidence in his superior mental ability. he was therefore not holy enough. he knows he's smart, but that prevents him from loving people. at least, i think thats what the consequence of pride is. perhaps you have a different idea or something more elaborate?

>> No.3752617

>>3752600
Yes, it's a flaw, but I quite liked it as a flaw. He distanced himself from the nature of Russian nobility, while still remaining in it in a way. Yes, he considered himself above it, but he still kept the spirit of nobility.

Above all, it highlighted his flexibility, which has to be my favorite characteristic of his.

>> No.3752687

Pierre is great, and I really loved how easily he was swayed into different firm positions. Wandering around with a pistol intent on assassinating Napoleon is unforgettable.

I also really like Levin - I don't know what I think about his leap of faith toward the end. I've read here and elsewhere that it was supposed to be a trend toward conformism but I see it as a very unconventonial Kierkegaardian leap of faith in which he learns to trust himself or "god" but what a modern person might call "the universe" or some other name.

Also, part 3 where Levin goes into the zone and starts scything his crops? That part is like a cool glass of lemonade on a hot day. I could reread it over and over.

>> No.3752715

>>3752518
That's stupid, The Death of Ivan Ilyich is really short. I haven't even read anything of Tolstoy's from before his religious phase.

>> No.3752718

>>3752687
>Also, part 3 where Levin goes into the zone and starts scything his crops? That part is like a cool glass of lemonade on a hot day. I could reread it over and over.

So much this.

All his interactions with peasants are kinda heart-warming. Especially since you consider peasants were lazy-ass, uncultured and uneducated savages. Levin is such a nice guy.

>> No.3752766

>>3752687
>>Also, part 3 where Levin goes into the zone and starts scything his crops? That part is like a cool glass of lemonade on a hot day. I could reread it over and over.

This aswell. I felt such an emotional connection to Levin throughout the book. I could have read about Levins life and thoughts forever. Even after six months his character is still with me.

>> No.3752776

>>3752509
>Hey /lit/, how come there's never any discussion on Tolstoy here?

Tolstoy's christianity is great.

"Kingdom of heaven is in you" is great
"What I believe" is great

youtube them, there are audio books

>> No.3753139

Read W&P and Cossacks a while back, read Ivan Illyich more recently. I'm interested to see what people think of it? The syllogism of mortality is one of the most poignant observations of human nature I've read in literature.

>> No.3753145

>>3752718
>All his interactions with peasants are kinda heart-warming. Especially since you consider peasants were lazy-ass, uncultured and uneducated savages. Levin is such a nice guy.

And this is why Tolstoy is a fuck. Noble savage bullshit educating the rich Russian landowner because he's got problems boo hoo

Fuck you, you arrogant prick.

>> No.3753175

>>3753145
I don't know if noble savage is the right terminology. He is alternatively pretty harsh on them. Anyway, I've never spent any time with real uneducated peasants and Tolstoy did so he probably knows better than I.

Of course, dude was a nobleman and writes about nobleman's problems. Luckily, I'm white upper middle class and probably pretty on par with noble so I can relate well.

>> No.3753181

>>3753175
> Luckily, I'm white upper middle class and probably pretty on par with noble so I can relate well.

Hah! The bourgeoisie can never be real nobles, and you'll certainly never be close to equal. Learn to aristocracy.

>> No.3753186

W&P > Anna Karenina
Cossacks > Hadji Murad
DOII > Kreutzer Sonata

>> No.3753224

>>3753181
True enough, but I relate better to Levin as depicted than I do to the peasants.

>> No.3753231

>>3753229

most*

>> No.3753229

>>3753224

Seeing as the peasants are functionally retarded, I think more people would.

>> No.3753273

>>3753175
>I'm white upper middle class and probably pretty on par with noble
Middle class is working class, you're not even bourgeoisie. A worker will never feel the noble feels. Unless you become NEET.

>> No.3753313

>>3753273
So what qualifies you as upper class? If you don't have to work for a living? Where do you draw the line between someone who doesn't have to work for a living and a person who wants to work for a living?

>> No.3753314

Tolstoyfags can't into Tolstoy unless they've read Confession

>> No.3753316

>>3753313

Upper class is still bourgeoisie. You need to start thinking in pre-Industrial Revolution terms if you want to understand nobility.

>> No.3753323

>>3753316
But, I don't think the range of human experience varies so greatly. We're talking about people who were born into uncommonly rich situations where they were told from birth they were absolutely better than everyone else.

Sounds to me like a white upper class male born into one of the richest places in US (which is better than the rest of the world).

>> No.3753327

>>3753323
>But, I don't think the range of human experience varies so greatly.

Then you know nothing of history.

Being intentionally reductive doesn't mean you're correct.

>> No.3753332

>>3753327
I'm a History teacher.

>> No.3753342

>>3753332

So much the worse for your students.

>> No.3753349

>>3753313
>Where do you draw the line between someone who doesn't have to work for a living and a person who wants to work for a living?
The latter is whole devoid of aristocratic feels and has a peasantlike, servile nature.

>> No.3753352

>>3753323
>a white upper class male born into one of the richest places in US (which is better than the rest of the world).
>thinks he can claim contemporary nobility mode
>has to visit disney land to see a castle

>> No.3753375

>>3753352
<top lel

>> No.3753400

Freaking love Tolstoy. His writing gets me so absorbed into a different world, it's easy to get a vivid picture from all the detail he writes. And it's consistently rewarding to put thought into the stories, because his writing is so cohesive and efficient that almost every line has plenty of connections to the work as a whole.

>> No.3753994

>>3753145
you're probably a teen. Grow up a bit and you'll really appreciate Levin's interaction with peasants. Tolstoy never considered them noble savages and knew they were kind of stupid and should not be treated too kindly, he, like Heidegger, like Wittgenstein, found something really admirable in physical labour.

I find discussing Tolstoy not that interesting. He's my favourite author but he writes in such a clear, almost naively objective way that its hard to remember to be critical. What's the point of analyzing the most natural writing ever?

>> No.3755347

>>3753994
>What's the point of analyzing the most natural writing ever?

We can discuss his ideas and themes. We can study his style to see what made him so clear and beautiful. We can use him as a window to ninteenth century Russia. Why shouldnt be interesting?

>> No.3755374

>>3753994
>like Heidegger, like Wittgenstein, found something really admirable in physical labour.

It's easy to find something admirable in it when you only have to do in on vacation.

I'd honestly find it less offensive if they were a bunch of arrogant rich assholes telling me how superior they are. Fucking rich pieces of shit who like to pretend they're poor sometimes because it's oh so noble and admirable to be a poor working peasant laborer are the absolute worst.

>> No.3755375

>>3752509

OP (and other Tolstoy lovers of /lit/): I made two reviews about two main works of Tolstoy on Amazon: one on “War and Peace” and other on “The Death of Ivan Ilicht”. Tolstoy is the writer that I love the most: he and Shakespeare are the writers that I really admire with all my heart (I also love the fact that two man with so different styles can both create works of absolute beauty, but without resembling in almost nothing one another).

If you want the link to the reviews, just tell me.

>> No.3755383

>>3755375
>he and Shakespeare are the writers that I really admire with all my hear

That's kind of funny, seeing as Tolstoy thought Shakespeare was a hack.

>> No.3755394

>>3755375
Could you post them here?

>> No.3755416
File: 58 KB, 396x500, tumblr_l9efi3kLPT1qzn0deo1_400.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3755416

>>3755375
yo link me
>>3755374
For you, friend
"Many people, without being communists, have been irritated by the complacence in the massive calm of the poem, and this seems partly because they feel there is a cheat in the implied politics; the 'bourgeois' themselves do not like literature to have too much 'bourgeois ideology." - William Empson

>> No.3755424

>>3755394

They are a bit big: I would have to split them into pieces.

But here is the link (as I loved the books I wrote the review with care and attention):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A10Q8F3PGHBU7V/ref=cm_pdp_rev_all?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview

>> No.3755430

>>3755424
Thanks.

By the way, what's your favorite Tolstoy? W&P or Anna K?

>> No.3755438
File: 79 KB, 490x640, 1359249148540.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3755438

>>3755424
Tolstoy and Shakespeare right up there with Dragon Ball Z.

I like your style.

>> No.3755450

>>3755430

W&P.

It's more raw, more ambitious, more comprehensive. In this book it seems that Tolstoy tried to portray all the possible experiences of human life; it seems to me that he was fed by high fertility and ambition when he wrote W & P. In my opinion is the greatest work of fiction of all time.

>> No.3755467

>>3755438

lol. Thanks.

I'm a big nerd.

Actually, I believe that anime and manga often create interesting and complex characters: since stories in this medium generally span in several chapters and editions, it is sometimes possible to explore quite profoundly some personality traits and peculiarities of an individual character. Maybe the future will look at the present age of Japanese comic fiction as a kind of artistic renascence…lol.

>> No.3755478

>>3755450
Might reread it this summer.

I get this kind of depression when I try to read stuff other than Tolstoy after having read him for awhile. All I want is something that reads like Tolstoy. For me, he just delivers the goods. There's no bullshit, no flab. I read Tolstoy at a I imagine people who read Tom Clancy or Dan Brown read at.

He's my touchstone for prose and I increasingly have little patience for stuff that strays.

>> No.3755496 [DELETED] 
File: 284 KB, 1161x869, 1367155684442.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3755496

>>3755438
Here here.

>> No.3755510

>>3755478
>I get this kind of depression when I try to read stuff other than Tolstoy after having read him for awhile.

Lol. Story of my life.

I suffer the same with Shakespeare: whenever I read other poets I yearn for the same bold metaphors, the same bizarre and beautiful personifications, by the same verbal inventiveness of the English playwright ... but in vain. Generally other poets one time or another surprise me with a metaphor of extraordinarily vivacity and boldness, but with Shakespeare it happens all the time. Consider T. S. Elliot, for example, how I wish that his work had more things like:

The sleek Brazilian jaguar 25
Does not in its arboreal gloom
Distil so rank a feline smell
As Grishkin in a drawing-room.

Or Milton thins like this:

Wherefore did Nature powre her bounties forth, [ 710 ]
With such a full and unwithdrawing hand,
Covering the earth with odours, fruits, and flocks,
Thronging the Seas with spawn innumerable,
But all to please, and sate the curious taste?
And set to work millions of spinning Worms, [ 715 ]
That in their green shops weave the smooth-hair'd silk
To deck her Sons; and that no corner might
Be vacant of her plenty, in her own loyns
She hutch't th' all-worshipt ore and precious gems
To store her children with;

>> No.3756868

>>3755510

Nice excerpts.

>> No.3756911

>>3755467
Based gaucho com bom gosto.

>> No.3756937

>>3756911
>gaucho com bom gosto.

Como você sabe que sou gaúcho? lol

Parabéns, você acertou.

>> No.3756973 [DELETED] 

>"Praise! I love you, God. Forgive me, Lord. Amen".

▬ LEON DOSTOYEVSKIJ.

>> No.3756978

>>3756937
>Location: City of Campo Bom, state of Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil

>> No.3756988

>>3756978

lol.

Tinha me esquecido que o registro da Amazon continha meu endereço. Sou uma anta mesmo.

Obrigado pelo "bom gosto".

>> No.3757954

>>3752509

His diaries are also a very good read.

The image of a saint, a lone prophet, plunged into a distant and remote world of nature and serenity could not be farther from the truth. Tolstoy was a whirlwind of sex, arrogance, greed, hate, envy, jealousy, shyness, sensitivity - he was, above all, one of the most ambitious man the world has ever heard of. War and Peace is a wonderful example of supreme ambition: an artist trying to encircle and trap in one of his works all the movements and all the facets and prisms of life and human existence.

He was also constantly fuckinf youn peasent girls and prostitutes in his youth.

>> No.3757986

>>3755478
>I get this kind of depression when I try to read stuff other than Tolstoy after having read him for awhile

This, this, this. No-one is like Tolstoy, no-one even comes close

>> No.3757991

>>3752509
his cousin(or some relative) shit on fools in duels for fun...babass ruskies

>> No.3757999

>>3757991
ruskies rule,
if anyone wants a short intro into Tolstoy the death of Ivan Illyich is really good
I like all of his works that i've read so far

>> No.3758122

>>3757999
>Tolstoy the death of Ivan Illyich

For me "Kolsthomer, the story of a horse" is up there in the top with "Death of Ivan Illyich".

It's one of the greatest portraits of nature that I know - Tolstoy was a fucking Genius.

>> No.3758233

I am 11 chapters into The Cossacks and loving it. The first couple chapters took me about a week to get through by force, but I got into the groove and I'm really enjoying Tolstoy's style. It's like a window into the past, he practically plucks you from your body and deposits you into 18th century Russia.

>> No.3758986

>>3758233
>The Cossacks

Uncle Yeroshka is a great character.

>> No.3759617

>>3757954
yeah, W&P was basically saying that shit is incalculably deterministic and that the aim of history to try and isolate cause and effect is completely ridiculous

>> No.3759636

Am I the only one who thought Death of Ivan Ilyich was dreadful and banal and predictable? Maybe it was the translation but I couldn't even finish it. Then again I am bored of prose.

>> No.3761389

Bump, because I also love Tolstoy's work.

>> No.3761529

>>3759636
Predictable isn't a term you can really use to criticise a book in which the entire plot is revealed in the title. It's about human psychology in the face of death.

>> No.3762951

Bump

>> No.3762964

>>3761529
indeed

>> No.3762975

>>3761389
so unique

>> No.3762976

>>3761529
predictability doesn't just involve plot. Something can be entirely psychological and entirely predictable

>> No.3763178

Anyone else feel like Levin in towards the end in Anna Karenina as regards suicide ? The part where it is said that Levin has the thought of suicide constantly brudening his mind, and that he goes as far as to avoid having rope or rifles in his house, lest he be tempted to kill himself, but his daily life is otherwise completely unaffected by this thought and he is able to engage normally with everyone around him. Like if the suicide concern and his daily occupations were two completely unrelated things, equally important but living at the same time in two separate parts of his mind.

I have been feeling this way for like months.

>> No.3763216

Can someone tell me if it's better to read the full version of W&P or the abridged version.

>> No.3763232

>>3763216

he wrote a great book on Joan of Arc

stay away from his regular classic "fiction" he thought it was trash anyway.

>> No.3763684

To what extent is Anna Karenina an existentialist novel? A friend of mine has called it a wholly existentialist work, but it bears none of the atmosphere that existentialist writing usually does, yet it is undeniable that Levin's struggle is an existential one.

>> No.3763706

I read the Three Hermits, on suggestion from my English Teacher.
I'm pretty sure the entirety of his basis of this suggestion was that I recited Shakespeare and showed up to the school's Book Club a few times.

It was interesting, I suppose, but those ideas were kind of 8-9th grade for me.

>> No.3764230

>>3763706
Do you really believe that in 8th grade you got everything there was to get out of a work of Tolstoy?

>> No.3764426

LEO TOLBUMP