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/lit/ - Literature

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3739857 No.3739857[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Do we possess free will /lit/?

If not, why bother at all?

>> No.3739860

I'm just like ".... w/e".

>> No.3739862

>If not, why bother at all?

Because existence can be rather fun at times by operating under the illusion of it.

>> No.3739863

If you don't have it, you'll bother precisely as much as you're capable.

>> No.3739867

Do you think your life is some sort of video game.

>> No.3739876

>If not, why bother at all?

Because you don't have a choice

>> No.3739897

why would you lock up people for crimes if we didnt have free will?

athetists - naught
christians - best

>> No.3739901
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3739901

>mfw I'm too squeamish to kill myself

>> No.3739907

>>3739857
>why bother at all?
you have no choice in the matter

>> No.3739908

no but it doesn't matter

>>3739897
why do we push a rock up a hill if we need it at the top?

>> No.3739911

pretty girls

>> No.3739915

I don't think we possess free will. If I was in control of my my life I would do a much better job of it.

>> No.3739920

>>3739915
>implying free will is magic

>> No.3739961

It's not really a matter of opinion. There's no free will.

And your second question is a non sequitur. Maybe you misunderstand what it means to not have free will. It doesn't mean everything is predestined. It doesn't mean we don't have the ability to choose -- actually, we have no choice but to choose. It means that everything we will is brought on by our neurophysiological makeup, which is itself influenced by the conditions in which we live. There's no room for free will. It could only exist if there were a ghost in the machine, which there isn't.

>> No.3739979

>>3739897
I know you're trolling but it's a utilitarian act, for the protection of non-criminals.

>> No.3739980

Free will is assumed. Take Christian "theology" that masquerades as religion. You believe you have free will because you are taught that if you make the right choices in life, God will love you and you'll be in Heaven. This, however, results in insanity, or at the very least neurosis. It is unfortunate and sad to see.

>> No.3739984

I used to possess free will; but, I gave it away.

>> No.3739992

>>3739857
this question is meaningless without a rigorous definition of 'free' and 'will'

>> No.3739993

Consider the probability of some event E occuring in the world. If event E is dependent on event F, then we say P(E l F) or, the conditional probability of E given F approaches 1 at a rate different than had E happened independently of F. Analogously, consider an urn filled with 2 blue balls, 2 black balls, and 2 red balls. If I'm interested in the probability of drawing a black ball, and there are neither 2 blue balls nor 1 red ball within the urn, then the probability that I do draw a black ball approaches 1. Interestingly, when I do draw the red ball, the probability becomes 1, certainty, that I will draw a black ball upon my next draw. Consider events in the world in a similar fashion: If all events E are dependent upon events E1, E2, E3, etc. ad infinitum or for some large 'E sub-n' if you believe the universe began at some point in time. With this, we find that the probability that all events in the world happen as they do is 1, certainty. All events that we can conceive of happening, or counterfactual events thus have probabilities of 0.

tl;dr: you have no free will.

>> No.3740000

>>3739993
To simplify, I suppose: the fact that things happen removes likelihoods of alternate possibilities. As long as we are (italicized), our chances of freedom of will are approaching 0, and likely have already.

>> No.3740025

>>3739857
Why not? Just because the rollercoaster has no steering wheel doesn't mean that it isn't a fun ride. Also who says you get to decide if you bother at all?

>> No.3740029

>>3740025
You can, however, accelerate the rollercoaster.

>> No.3740036

>>3739980
The funny part is the very existence of an omniscient God removes the possibility to free will.

>> No.3740038

>>3739897

Like the other guy said, you're probably trolling. But this is important to consider. Once it's understood that free will is only illusory, it becomes easier to empathize with people. Take a criminal, for example. Given his brain and the precise course his life had taken right up to the point of the crime, there would be nothing else he could have done in the situation but commit the crime. He would have been someone else were the crime not committed. So, understanding the role environment plays in our lives, I do think it makes sense, not to avoid locking people up for crimes, but to shorten the amount of time imprisoned, and to focus, not on punishment, but on rehabilitation.

>> No.3740052

>>3740036
However, the New Age tweest is that we are all God, or are all sovereign individual Gods.

>> No.3740097

>>3739857
Yes we do have free will, it's provable.

No, brain chemistry doesn't rule out free will and no, gods have nothing to do with it all.

>> No.3740099

>>3740097
>implying if we all had free will to start with, we would choose to end up here

>> No.3740100

>>3740097
Could you please provide some arguments

>> No.3740107

>>3740100
"Argument" already assumes you have free will.

Just accept that you don't, because your life is shit and you didn't select "shit" when you life began. You are a product of your parents, your duality is a forced honoring of their genetic and social pattern influence. You are not autonomous. You are what you are right now and that's it.

>> No.3740112

>>3740107
You misunderstood, there is no free will, but i was curious to what he/she had to say

>> No.3740122

>>3740112
Your curiosity lead you to freely ask him/her.

Checkmate, free willy.

>> No.3740123

>>3740097
Please prove it.

I'm completely serious. My current belief that we do not have free will is disturbing when I ponder it, and I would love to be proven wrong.

>> No.3740124

>>3740100
Sure, it goes something like this:

A system is deterministic if when knowing its current state and the rules that govern it, you can predict its future states. Opponents of free will claim that since the mind is just brain chemistry, and chemistry is deterministic, the mind itself must be deterministic, hence free will must be, at best, an illusion; the illusion that you actually make choices, instead of just acting on chemical reactions.

However, this means that you could theoretically predict your own future actions if you had access to the full information of your brain's chemical state and had perfect knowledge of physics. But then there's a problem: if you can predict your own future, you can fuck it up, so the prediction wouldn't be such. This happens because an observer who makes a deterministic prediction of himself must include the fact that he's making a prediction into the prediction itself, essentially gettting caught in an infinite loop in which each subsequent prediction requires that you include the previous prediction into itself.

In other words: conscious observers contain an inherent property that makes whatever system they're part of non-deterministic. You can call that property "the ability to fuck up predictions" or just "free will" for short.

Read it somewhere and thought it was pretty solid logic, may have fucked up when writing it down.

>> No.3740125

>>3740123
You can change your belief, right now.

Do it.

>> No.3740128

>>3740123
here
>>3740124

not sure if it's proof of anything, but sounded pretty solid when I first read it.

>> No.3740134

>>3740124
Sounds interesting, do you happen to know where you read that?

>> No.3740146

money = free will

>> No.3740149

>>3740122
christ, do you have any idea how stupid you sound?

>> No.3740152

>>3740134
Nope. Obscure article somewhere some time ago.

Or maybe I thought it up in a /sci/ thread but use the "I read somewhere" tactic because stage fright. Who can know.

>> No.3740160

>>3740124
The problem with this argument is that the universe is not deterministic insofar as we can observe. We can never have a perfect knowledge of every particle in the system.

See: Laplace's Demon, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle

>> No.3740161

>>3740149
The "free willy" reference was made in all seriousness, serious sam.

>> No.3740175

>>3740123
>My current belief that we do not have free will is disturbing
Dude, stop being such a little bitch.
>MY ASININE NEW-ENNUI BELIEF IS SCARING ME!!!!
There are people who kill themselves because they think they are the antichrist. You ain't got shit. Secondly, if we have no free will, that has literally zero impact on anything.

>> No.3740177

>>3740160
But then free will is a given unless you go the gods-and-destiny route right?

Also, the universe is statistically deterministic. Can't predict what one single particle will do, but you can predict that stuff will fall to the ground, that light beams will bounce, gases will expand etc.

>> No.3740179

>>3740175
You're mad at your current "free will" levels, arent' you.

>> No.3740182

>>3740177
There are exceptions to every rule.

However, it can be said that most often times certain rules can be depended upon.

>> No.3740188

>>3740182
But you do agree that there is indeed free will, don't you?

>> No.3740191

>>3740188
Why would I do that. I am consciously choosing not to agree with you.

>> No.3740192

There is free will to fuck up your destiny, you bastards.

>> No.3740200

>>3740192
Define destiny.

>> No.3740204

>>3740191
Seems you managed to agree with me by choosing to disagree with me. Nice job.

>> No.3740205

Of course we do. If only because most of us are so insignificant, even if there was a higher power manipulating everything, I highly doubt he'd bother.

>> No.3740210

Sure we have free will. People just have this odd idea algorithms can't make decisions. They can. The trick is in according behavior with prediction to align with motive. Nice and deterministic and all that, but still an exercise in agency. Granted, I don't like to weigh in on this topic because I'm used to Harris fans kicking and screaming and thrashing about because they've decided hard determinism underlies some dearly held political beliefs (which often aren't always that bad of political beliefs), but I think the interesting bit is what underlies the phenomena of free will, as I tend to take the mind quite seriously, for such an often silly thing.

>> No.3740212

>>3740124

Let me attempt to explain why this is wrong and why free will doesn't exist. In a deterministic system, everything that happens is determined by all of the previous conditions. This doesn't, however, imply that we would be able to make any certain predictions about the future, as that would require we stop time. In your theoretical situation, the decision to fuck up the future was caused (=determined) by the idea held previously that the future was able to be fucked up. But time continued to flow, as and after they predicted to future, and your hypothetical fails to take that into account. The decision to act differently than what was predicted was determined by the thought that the future had been predicted and that it was possible to change that future. I realize I'm just repeating myself here, but I hope you get the point. In other words, you're making the mistake of assuming that determinism implies fatalism, which is not the case. The universe is deterministic, not fatalistic.

>> No.3740214

>>3740177
No, that doesn't imply free-will. It simply means it is beyond our capability to predict with certainty the end result of macroscopic events, and thus predicting the future of any remotely complex system is impossible. We can make predict by making abstractions and disregarding complexities and obtain good accuracy in many systems, but we are never certain. It is simply a limitations of our observational capabilities.

>> No.3740217

>People blaming poor life decisions on the lack of free will
My fucking sides. Never change, /lit/.

>> No.3740218

>>3740204
Thanks.

>> No.3740220

>>3740200
Shit in your life that you don't have to do that happens anyway.

>> No.3740222

>>3740217
>displacement of blame is the funny part and not the poor life decisions

too close to home mate?

>> No.3740224

>>3740214
I also want to clarify that when I said the universe is not deterministic insofar as we can observe, this is what I meant. I believe that it is in fact deterministic, but it is folly to think that we have the capability of observing it with absolute certainty.

>> No.3740228

>>3740220

Lol was I the TA in your World Humanities 100 course last semester or something? I remember saying that to my fucking class.

>> No.3740229

>>3740205
"Insignificant" implies significance, and there is no such thing outside of our own value judgements.

>> No.3740230

>>3740217

I'm not sure you understand the concept of free will. No one is rationalizing their decisions on the basis of not having free will. Free will still allows for people to make decisions and be held accountable for them.

>> No.3740234

>>3740230
>>3740217

Oops. I meant a lack of free will still allows for people to make decisions and be held accountable for them.

>> No.3740235

>>3740210
Are you saying that since the decision-making process still exists, there's free will despite how it can only come to one conclusion?

>> No.3740237

>>3740228
Coincidences are just coincidences, m8.

Doesn't make them any less glad, though

>> No.3740243

>>3740230
>implying all bad decisions were free will

>> No.3740247

>>3740237

Just hoping to meet someone I know on 4chan.

>it is determined

>> No.3740249

>>3740243

I meant lack of free will. I agree with you.

>> No.3740257
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3740257

>>3740249
Stop agreeing with me.

>> No.3740258

>>3739857
Whether we do or not is entirely irrelevant, as the illusion of free will is subjectively indistinguishable from free will itself.

>> No.3740260

>>3740212
You just said that although reality is deterministic, we can't, even theoretically, predict the future, which is the same as saying it isn't deterministic. Worst case scenario you're turning free will into an unknowable, since we just can't find out.

Also, you totally failed to explain how your post proves (or even implies) our behavior is deterministic.

>> No.3740266

>>3739857
Why does it matter?

>> No.3740267

>>3740235
Yes. A certain sorta free will, since we should be good here and try to define our terms and all that jazz. The phenomenon of free will, at the very least.

>> No.3740270

What does free will have to say about free will?

>> No.3740280

>>3740214
>>3740224
But if we can't (ever) predict the future state of our mind, we might as well say it's non-deterministic and call it "free will" for lack of a better term. Antropic principle or whatever.

>> No.3740288

>>3740280
Ever heard of "mental health"?

>> No.3740291
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3740291

How would it even be the case that we didn't have free will?

>> No.3740295

>>3740291
It's a relief of pressure.

>> No.3740301

>>3740267
That means you're really agreeing with all the people saying there's no free will, and they agree with you. You just call it free will and they don't.

>> No.3740305

>>3740301
>implying agreeing and disagreeing are components of free will

>> No.3740310

>>3740288
And that relates to what exactly?

>> No.3740312

>>3740305
wat

>> No.3740313

>>3740310
To free will and state of mind, dummy.

>> No.3740315

>>3740312
sorry 2deep4u

>> No.3740318

>>3740179
If by "free will" you mean "blood alcohol content", then yes.

>> No.3740319

>>3740295
... er, care to elaborate?

If it's a theory that there's some 'higher power' dictating to us and making it seem like free will, then I'd just think it's a pointless argument. For all that deity knows his own free will could be an illusion.

It's so much easier to assume we have our own free will. And even if we didn't, we are then lucky enough to have a mental dictator who is kind enough to care about and look after our own well-being, at least in most cases.

>> No.3740320

>>3740318
There you go.

>> No.3740324

>>3740313
How are the two related?

>> No.3740326

>>3740291
all your actions are responses

you cannot find true causality. what made one thing happen can never be traced.

among other answers, naturally

>> No.3740327

>>3740319
Your wall of texts belies your will to be interested in my elaborations. You are more interested in your own.

>> No.3740330

>>3740324
Your questions are a little too basic and uninteresting. You give 1% and expect 99% back. This is your problem.

>> No.3740331

>>3740326
>naturally

you don goofed

>> No.3740338

>>3739857
>If not, why bother at all?
If free will doesn't exist, then we HAVE to "bother".
If we have only one possible outcome for every circumstance and function, then we are bound to that reality. This renders any question of "why" we do something as being fucking stupid.

Now, that isn't to say I believe humanity is individually and collectively set on a track they will and must follow.
If you define a person as a collection of wills that takes direction from the dominant wills within, then free will does not exist. This is because each will is not a person. The person is made up of the wills. This means that there are wills that under one circumstance are sure to be dominant and drive a person, and there are wills that under another circumstance are sure to be submissive and to dissipate under dominant wills.
This means that free will is not real and that one is inherently slave to wills.
To claim that people are NOT slave to wills is to say that humans are not slave to brain-matter. We can't decide to not have brains, and everything we do is done using our brains. If your brain has an enlarged amygdala, you are likely autistic or have PTSD. That is simply the way it works. That part of the brain (analogy for a will) has become dominant and other parts of the brain have become submissive. Now that that happened, everything you do is affected by that enlarged amygdala.

So I don't believe in free will. It seems silly.

>> No.3740340
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3740340

Cogito ergo sum.

Liber sum ergo liberum arbitrium habeo.

>> No.3740342
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3740342

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

>> No.3740347

>>3740342
?

After this therefore on account of this?

>> No.3740350

>>3740320
Good thing I have this bottle of rum next to me.

>> No.3740352
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3740352

No sympathy for the devil. Buy the ticket. Take the ride.

Actually, inferring that your parents fucking was you buying a ticket is offensive. You are because your parents fucked. That is your whole reason for being.

>> No.3740354

>>3740347
Sorry, a little too educated for you.

>> No.3740356

>>3740350
This man understands

>> No.3740357

If we don't have free will, then we can't just decide to kill ourselves precisely because we don't have free will to decide to do that. Duh.

>> No.3740358

>>3740357
>implying suicide is a sin and isn't "natural"

stop religious thoughts now

>> No.3740359

>>3740357
So why don't you go ahead and blow your brains out to prove we all have free will.

>> No.3740360
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3740360

>>3740354
>That condescension

Wow. I know Latin. I've just never encountered the phrase. Well done for knowing one idiom.

>> No.3740361

>>3740352
We're just a side effect of other people living.

>>3740357
UNLESS YOU'RE DESTINED TO KILL YOURSELF.

>> No.3740364

>>3740361
>We're just a side effect of other people living.

fucking

>> No.3740366

>>3740360
Knowing words of another language without any actual concepts is useless.

It's actually a common phrase.

>> No.3740368
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3740368

Why does it even matter?

>> No.3740369

>>3740364
People fuck, thus they are alive.

>> No.3740375

We're in control of our behavior and how we respond to life in the moment but not our lives as a whole, there are too many factors at work for us to have complete free will.

>> No.3740377
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3740377

>>3740364
>implying fucking isn't a part of living.

>> No.3740382

>>3740369
People fucked, thus you are alive.

Exceptions for artificial insemination, test tube babies, etc.

>> No.3740386

>>3740358
What are you talking about? I'm saying that if we don't have free will, i.e., if our lives are predetermined by something, then we can only kill ourselves if that is predetermined - we can't choose to do so.

>>3740360
I don't want to. I'm not even decided on whether or not we have free will. I'm inclined to think so, actually. But if I did kill myself, it would prove precisely nothing to a determinist because he could just say it was predetermined that I would kill myself. The determinist sees all events as the result of prior events; the prior event that caused me to kill myself would obviously be your challenge to do so in order to prove free will exists, so it's not actually possible to prove or disprove.

>>3740361
Well, yeah.

>>3740360
It's an informal fallacy: "after this therefore because of this", i.e., assuming that if B follows A, B must have been caused by A, which is obviously not always the case.

>> No.3740388

>>3740368
I don't think anyone ITT has suggested it does.

>> No.3740390

>>3740366
>Knowing words of another language without any actual concepts is useless.
>It's actually a common phrase.

Um, yeah, but one idiom =/= all idioms. Whether it's common or not doesn't make it any easier to understand for someone who's never seen it before.

>> No.3740392

>>3740377
Yeah, you've made your point.

My point is your only reason for living is that your parents fucked.

Will you please restate your point again, because it is much more interesting and new.

>> No.3740393

>>3740386
>What are you talking about? I'm saying that if we don't have free will, i.e., if our lives are predetermined by something, then we can only kill ourselves if that is predetermined - we can't choose to do so.
Your ability to assert yourself and not listen is common.

>> No.3740395

>>3740390
I know you can't understand it. That's obvious to all of us here.

>> No.3740396

>>3740388
To me, it's all just ways of thinking, which have effects on how you live your life.

But I'll never understand why anyone would want to think through determinism when they have the choice to not do so. It isn't even the logical starting point IMO.

>> No.3740399

>>3740393
I didn't understand your reply, so I thought it would help if I clarified my point. I thought maybe you had misunderstood me, since you said that I implied that suicide was a sin or unnatural, when I did not. Now I'm wondering if you're being deliberately obtuse.

>> No.3740401

>>3740395
>what is google
>what is wikipedia

>> No.3740403

>>3740396
are you really this stupid?

and to everyone in this thread, why do you come here to argue about hings you know nothing about?

>> No.3740404

>>3740396
>I'll never understand

Why would you be so confident about your stupidity, I'll never understand.

>> No.3740410

>>3740399
>I didn't understand your reply, so I thought it would help if I clarified my point.
That is the error that fools make.

>I don't understand you so I'll reiterate myself as an attempt to understand you, because if you understood me you would be understandable to me, subsequently.

it's all about your will (and failure) to control

>> No.3740413

>>3740401
Some people are proud of their ignorance. They consider it "strength of will" not to be influenced by intelligent cultures.

>> No.3740414

>>3740403
>>3740404

>I'll never understand

Ok, I phrased that wrong.

I don't think it's beneficial to think in that way in the long run, hence why I don't.

>> No.3740415

>>3740403
>to everyone in this thread
>mah authoritae

>> No.3740417

>>3740413
I'm sorry, is this still an attempt at a ruse?

>> No.3740418

>>3740414
>not standing by your words
>oh, i "mis-spoke"

Credibility, further down the drain, folks.

>> No.3740419

>>3740403
Why do you come here to argue against us arguing about thing we don't understand when YOU can't understand why you're arguing? By your own logic, you should gtfo of this thread.

>> No.3740422

>>3740417
People who attempt to remain proud of their ignorance cannot ignore their jimmies when rustled.

>> No.3740423

>why bother

why bother with what exactly you flagellant wiggling of a hobo's trouser jizz.?
so now you've realized that you're not responsible for being such a faggot and your reaction is "why bother",
how about enjoy the ride you extracted vaginal resin? fuck you're such a bitch dude, as if philosophising ever interfered with my daily routine of cocaine caviar and masturbation,

two nights ago i paid this beautiful hooker to take a giant shit on my chest and as she squeezed off the last log i axed her
"do you love me?"
she said "no" and i withheld suicide due to the sole fact that my question was metaphysically flawed, for there was no "you" to do the loving.
so instead of killing myself i froze her shit in the freezer and fucked her with it, this frosty and quaintly odorless dildo, after which we both took a long bath and when i pretended to nod off and sank below the water, she just sat there looking at me, hoping that i had drowned.
my point is that life is beautiful,
so take refuge in non-freedom and ride the train into the devil's urethra, straying off course is impossible so like, you know, fukc

>> No.3740425

>>3740419
>arguing is worthwhile

Haven't you learned one thing so far? Sheesh.

>> No.3740427

>>3740423
satan wouldn't be poetic

>> No.3740432

>>3740418
Wow, aren't you pleasant.

Take it or leave it, assclown.

>> No.3740433

>>3740419
>why you're
Meant "why we're".

>> No.3740435

>>3740432
lel, the jimmies

>> No.3740436

>>3740415
yes, i do claim some authority here my friend, im a philosophy gradstudent. ill be happy to answer any serious questions you guys have, but most of what ive read here so far is beyond stupid

>> No.3740438

>>3740436
how's that working for ya

>> No.3740440

>>3740427

what you talking shite face i am le stan

>> No.3740441

>>3740425
I didn't say it was, dumbass. I'm saying that for what it's worth we ARE arguing, and him being here to argue his point goes against his point, thus making him a hypocrite.

>> No.3740443
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3740443

>>3740435
>lel, the jimmies

>> No.3740444

>>3740436
is reality ontologically complete or just a sneaky trick

>> No.3740446

>>3740441
>implying there's something worthwhile about it

see, you're practically arguing against yourself, aren't you?

>> No.3740447
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3740447

>>3740392
Hey, do you remember like, that one time, where you got totally buttmad because you felt a pressing urge to correct a statement that didn't need correcting, because it was so unoriginal and it completely disinterested you and stuff, but then you got called out on making distinction that was already implied?
And then, and then you made a big deal out of it just so you could show everybody how it wasn't really a big deal at all?
Yeah, I remember that too.

>> No.3740448

>>3740423

>my point is that life is beautiful,

That was the perfect place for that sentence.

>> No.3740449

>>3740436
When did you realise that your path in life would be that of a qualified douchebag?

>> No.3740452

>>3740447
When I was 12, maybe.

>> No.3740453

>>3740446
"For what it's worth" doesn't imply worth.

>> No.3740455

>>3740453
nice try

>> No.3740456

>>3740438
really good, im making 3,5 k, which is pretty awesome for a student and im pretty much on my way to a tenure-track at a university of my choice.

>> No.3740457

>>3740446
>implying there isn't

we're arguing over everything and nothing

>> No.3740460

>>3740455
I wish I could say the same, but you get 0/10.

>> No.3740461

>>3740456
no, i mean, how's that working for you now, in this moment, posting on here

>> No.3740463

>>3740457
nothing is the result of arguing

>> No.3740464

>>3740460
really?

>> No.3740466

>>3740461
i dont even know why i am, seems like a waste of time.

>> No.3740467

>>3740466
>seems like a waste of time

hopefully you can figure that one out on your own

>> No.3740470

>>3740463
Futher knowledge and understanding can result from arguing.

Even solutions, in the minority of cases.

>> No.3740472

>>3740444
what are you even asking?

>> No.3740474

>>3740464
Well, I did reply, for what it's worth.

>> No.3740476

>>3740474
>Your reply
>worth

Really?

>> No.3740478

>>3740476
>>3740474

you guys are such bickering women shut the fuck up already

>> No.3740480

>>3740470
Don't confuse arguing with debate, though.

Debate is a silly game where one person tries to defeat the other, nothing learned, no listening, no arguing, nothing gained.

>> No.3740483

>>3740478
Lonely?

>> No.3740484

>>3740423

Jesus, stan. Are you back on drugs?

>> No.3740489

>>3740483

lel shut the fuck up yes im very lonely reply to me

>> No.3740491

>>3740489
I love you.

>> No.3740493
File: 175 KB, 500x284, 117865432345.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3740493

I actually used to think /lit/ wasn't full of autists.

>> No.3740498

>>3740493
Doesn't sound like your thinking process is something you should rely on.

>> No.3740505

>>3740484

no. by cocaine i meant crushed up dry wall and by "nodded off" i meant "gently relaxed my muscles into a purposeful underwater remission"

>> No.3740514

>>3740472
do u think the real qua its expression in reality forms a totality of being eo ipso or is it a sneaky trick

I'm in 100 level philosophy and have avoided class after e-mailing the professor about phallogocentrism and receiving no reply from her idk

>> No.3740516
File: 1.86 MB, 300x228, 1367773998440.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3740516

>>3740498
Or maybe I just shouldn't rely on /lit/

>> No.3740519

>>3740476
No. "For what it's worth" doesn't imply worth.

>> No.3740524

>>3740516
Depends rather heavily on what you want done.

>> No.3740527

>>3740519
Oh, did you like your post?>>3740453

>> No.3740529

>>3740514
loved the "eo ipso"
7/10

>> No.3740530

>>3740524
amusement.

>> No.3740531

>>3740516
/lit/ is a shithole.

>> No.3740532

>>3740531
No, it's the actual shit.

>> No.3740536
File: 911 KB, 171x141, 1367166632528.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3740536

>>3740524
Intelligent, open-minded, non-autistic discussion.

I'll get my coat.

>> No.3740541

>>3740527
Enough to make this joke about it.
>>3740530
Yeah, you dun goofed on this one.

>> No.3740547

>>3740536
Better get your umbrella while you're at it.

>> No.3740553

>>3740541
>Enough to make this joke about it.
>joke

Do you misuse words often?

>Yeah, you dun goofed on this one.

I know how to amuse myself.

>> No.3740560

>>3740553
>the joke
>your head
Pick one.

>> No.3740562

>>3740560
Why?

>> No.3740566

>>3740562
You don't actually have to, I already picked one for you.

>> No.3740572

>>3740566
Gee, I can't wait.

>> No.3740576

>>3740572
For what?

>> No.3740580

>>3740576
Your lack of amusement, shared.

>> No.3740581

Well I think everyone can agree if we do have free will it is really limited, seeing as we have our biological drives that we live by.

>> No.3740588

>>3740581
>virgins

>> No.3740593

>>3740581
Yeah, the "classic" evolution of self is to control biological drives.

>> No.3740643

>>3740038

Or just accepting that if that was their fate then it was also our fate to just do away with them capital punishment.

>> No.3740651

something just made me post here

>> No.3740658

>>3740581
>living by your biological drives
>2013
I'll have you know I live by my hard drive.

>> No.3740669

>/lit/
>discussion of free will
>nearly 200 posts

why??

>> No.3740671
File: 321 KB, 1024x1024, LondonCallingTheClash-1024x1024.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3740671

>>3740658
Yeah well I live by the river.

>> No.3740675

>>3740669
We couldn't help ourselves.

>> No.3740677
File: 88 KB, 500x386, sketti.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3740677

>>3740669

Because it's a very interesting topic encompassing both philosophy and hard science which leads to more fascinating questions and consequences.

Also, we have no choice but to discuss it.

>> No.3740702
File: 66 KB, 468x558, autism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3740702

>> No.3740723

>>3739993
>With this, we find that the probability that all events in the world happen as they do is 1, certainty

That only works for entirely deterministic sequences. The universe has randomness at the quantum level.

>> No.3740733

We don't have free will over death, no matter how we try.

>> No.3740735

>>3740733
Unless you kill yourself.

>> No.3740736

>>3740669
I'm constipated and leaving the chair hurts, so I'm stuck, in pain and grumpy. Thus, /lit/.

>> No.3740740

>>3740735
No, because you still die anyways.

All you did was accelerate the process.

That's what free will boils down to: to ability to accelerate and decelerate.

>> No.3740741

>>3740723
So we are determined by randomness. Shit, it's even worse.

>> No.3740745

>>3740741
Yes, you are the pinball.

>> No.3740766

>>3740745
maybe electrons have free will and they are in fact little gods communicating with havean by strings. shit would be awesome.

>> No.3740777

The assertion of free will implies that the mental division of the universe into names is a physical thing, and saying that these names operate their chemicals.

>> No.3740797

>>3740766
Politics and government do have a good side to them, yes.

>> No.3740801

>>3740777
Nouns are very important to us.

>> No.3742486

Of course we have free will. No amount of pseudo science bullshit should convince you over your subjective experience.

>> No.3742638

>>3742486
>implying you experience the freedom or something

>> No.3742691

>>3739857
According to Quantum Mechanics we do.

>> No.3742711

>>3742691
Yeah, quantum mechanic is basically the only good argument against determinism.

>> No.3743331

>>3742711
mechanics*

>> No.3743430

I suspect I possess someone elses Free Will. Sometimes this is a problem.

>> No.3743467

>>3742691
>>3742711
Assuming you are making the claim that the randomness of the quantum worlds proves that past events don't necessarily determine the movement of electrons through the brain, and thus we have free will, I must say that I don't think my thoughts being random means I have any more free will than if it was determined. Only if I (by some magic) was able to choose the randomness (without thinking,else I am caught in an infinite loop) then I am pretty sure I don't have free will.

That said, I do not see why anyone would say such things as,"Well, then, what is the point of doing anything?" This, it seems to me, is a mis-step in logic. To such people I would reccomend Daniel Dennetts books on free will, or if they don't have time for real philosophy, then check out, of course, Sam Harris's

>> No.3743468

>>3742711
Or common sense

>> No.3743497

>>3743468
I find common sense is almost always wrong. Can you justify your use of so called 'common sense'? This, to me, seems like the stupidest piffle anybody could say. Imagine, if you will, you open John Rawls, A Theory of Justice, and withing that tome, what do you find? One page, with the mad scribbling, "We should do this because it is common sense." OH! all the other philosophers say, WE NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT! Soon yards of blank paper are being printed in bound to protect philosophical works that are empty, save one sentence: X is true because it is common sense...

Never participate in adult conversation again, please.

>> No.3743509

>>3743468
The irony ... QM and common sense used in the same line of argument.