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/lit/ - Literature

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3623694 No.3623694[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

>It is not enough that I succeed, others must fail

How much do you agree with this?

>> No.3623699

It's a fundamental principle of capitalism, otherwise the concept of profit would be impossible

>> No.3623702

only racist white males think like that

>> No.3623704

Isn't success relative? How is it possible to succeed without the failure of others?

>> No.3623710

>>3623702
only racist white liberal females think like this

>> No.3623713

>>3623702
>>3623710
only dogmatic untermensch post like this

>> No.3623719

>it is not enough that I be privileged, others must be disenfranchised

>> No.3623721

>>3623704
You succeed when you achieve something you placed as an objective. Sometimes you can have adversaries, most of the time no.

>> No.3623724

it's redundant, others failing is part of the definition of succeeding

>> No.3623755

When Gore Vidal died, I remember finding solace in this thought.

>> No.3623794

>>3623694

I do not agree of disagree so much as I consider it illustrative of the divide in class thinking. For the lowest classes - paupers, peasants, proletarians, and bachelors - the measure of success is survival and the formation of reliable social networks. To step beyond survival and collective success is, in fact, to risk the very framework of subsistence endemic to this class-level. Why? Because, yes, bourgeois success is only possible by the sacrifice - willing or not - of the non-entry classes of bourgeois society. To move beyond the lowest class - to economically ascend - requires that one use the base classes as a stool - a starting-point or reserve of capital, if you prefer a less aggressive terminology. Materials must come from somewhere, and the proletariat make available these materials; thus a surplus of materials is taken from the proletariat.

On a more bestial level, there are also bragging rights. A man's success against a backdrop of others' failures helps to show what an exceptional example he is. Whether or not he is an exceptional example matter very little; neurotic or not, it is still a pervasive attitude amongst the bourgeoisie.

>> No.3623799

>>3623699
>what is growth

>> No.3623802

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamiltonian_spite

For evolutionary reasons it's a fundamental feature of the behavior of all living species.

>> No.3623818
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3623818

>>3623694

we can both succeed, you only think that way because you dont know whats good for you.

>> No.3623824

If I can succeed, without causing harm to others, then I see no reason for dissatisfaction.

Someone else's misery should not contribute to my happiness.

>> No.3623831

>>3623824
Ah, but the number of mates that you have access to is directly related to your relative status. Causing harm to others while succeeding (or simply causing less harm to yourself) does provide a great benefit.

Well, if you're a man that is.

>> No.3623842

>>3623824

It isn't the misery of others that makes their failure desirable (to a certain sort of individual). It is the elevated status of his success. Further assurance that his skill is more valuable and therefor more marketable. It is the essential attitude of the bourgeoisie, and there is great prejudice against those who do not share it for obvious reasons.

>> No.3623848

>>3623842
Everyone shares the attitude. Some try to suppress the tendency because they know they will lose. It's all very basic game theory, and the basis for slave morality.

>> No.3623856

>>3623694
I try to not give a shit about what others do as much as possible. So the answer is "not at all" I hope.

>> No.3623875

>>3623694
I'm pretty apathetic about everything so if I succeed, cool. But if other people succeed that's alright too.

>> No.3623880

>>3623848

It is the basis of the master-slave dialectic entire, but to imply that it is shared by all would be to deny that the lowest classes suppress it successfully for their own benefit - which they do not all of the time. Occasionally, a person of entry-class suppresses it for some reason or other, hence the existence of the liberal and progressive bourgeoisie.

That said, your choice of words would seem to imply a less-than-objective view on this topic. Please, do not assume anything I say to be proscriptive. It is analysis - as best I am able to perform it - of the interactions of groups. It is important in analysis to avoid dogmatism and right-wrong proscriptions.

>> No.3623893

>>3623694
the quote was used for mostly humorous effect

most people are failures in the first place so why would i want to encourage that

>> No.3623940

You can't deny it, at least one time in your life you wanted to see someone fail.

>> No.3623954

>>3623940

Only if they're a complete dick.

If you watch/ed shows like Takeshi's Castle or similar you tend to root for everyone regardless.

>>3623842
>>3623848
>>3623802

What about the 'rooting for the underdog mentality'?

>>3623724

Success is relative - it doesn't just have to be against someone else. It could the success of accomplishing a personal goal. I don't see how other people failing to start walking again after spinal surgery for instance is involved in the success of actually being able to walk again.

>> No.3623995

>>3623954

Rooting for the underdog is a form of empathy, of course - placing yourself in the shoes of another, to use an analogy. Quite frankly, you imagine that you might be in his position some day; you hope there is a way out for him and so a way out for you when the time comes. That is the very essence of the proletarian class-struggle. However, the bourgeois ideal - property surplus - requires the existence of the lower-classes. Since being below the participating line of bourgeois society *is* considered failure - particularly if you can not move "above" it - the bourgeoisie very much glorifies in the failure of others as a demonstration and necessity of their success.

>> No.3623999

Success is obedience to a structured way of life.

>> No.3624016

>>3623999

That ideology is the darling of churches and fascists everywhere.

>> No.3625034

>>3624016
Fascism is socialistic though, as is traditional Christianity.

American protestantism and libertarianism/conservatism is what views success that way.

>> No.3625050

If we can both succeed and receive the same benefit then of course we should both strive to do so. However if I receive a lesser benefit then I will do everything in my power to ensure that I receive the maximum benefit possible.

>> No.3625057

just wait till you meet a real sociopath, fuckers

>> No.3625058

>>3623802
Sounds like just so stories and no hard science and falsifiability.
Typical "biological" determinist shit.

>> No.3625060

>>3623848
Why are you so willing to believe such depressing nihilistic things?

>> No.3625068

>>3625060

I am an unemotional autist.

I will probably kill myself one of these days.

>> No.3625072

Very.
I don't really care if I do good as long as someone is doing worse.

>> No.3625076
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3625076

>>3625072
>look at me look at look at me!

>> No.3625079

>>3625076
I don't really know how you perceived my statement. But let's say everyone on class gets a 60 on a test. As long as I achieve more than that I'm set. I don't need a 100 to consider myself superior.

>> No.3625086

>>3624016
>Implying it isn't true
What do you think the key to success is, mr. smarty pants?

>> No.3625088

>>3625079
>admitting that he doesn't want to strive for perfection and greatness

loser

>> No.3625094

>>3625088
Why would I strive for perfection and greatness? With what purpose?

>> No.3625095

>>3625086
Whatever you want it to be. Obviously you are nihilist scum so good luck trying to reason with you.

>> No.3625097

>>3625094
>needing a reason or purpose to strive for perfection and greatness

loser
autist
normalfag
average fucker
goy

>> No.3625106

>>3625097
You sound a bit insecure.

>> No.3625112

Personally? Not at all. I would never try to apply something like that to my lifestyle.

>> No.3625117

>>3625106
>projecting
i'm so better than you faggot
i'd rid the world of you in an instant if I could
but i'd rather draw out your suffering

>> No.3625124
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3625124

>>3625117
Says the guy looking for validation.
I so fucking knew you were going to say I was projecting.

>> No.3625131

not /lit/ related.....

>> No.3625140

>>3625124
>muh validation
>muh being a loser

>> No.3625162

>>3623954
>Success is relative - it doesn't just have to be against someone else. It could the success of accomplishing a personal goal. I don't see how other people failing to start walking again after spinal surgery for instance is involved in the success of actually being able to walk again.

I think the idea is still having something to overcome, and the more highly you conceive of that "other" the more satisfaction you'll get from your goal.

If that "other" you're overcoming is perceived as something that the vast majority of people can overcome, then there is little satisfaction from overcoming it.

To take your own example, I've personally had pneumonia and broken leg. Had I been born a thousand years ago, it's very likely I would be death/an invalid, but now it's a common thing to overcome. I'm happy I got my leg put in a cast and my phenomena cured, but there is no rush of joy coming from this (as comes from winning a competition, or the thrill of doing something terrifying and daunting). Imagine a world where recovery from spinal cord injury took nothing more than a few pills and a week of physical therapy, can you imagine people feeling the same victory from recovering from it as they do now?

>> No.3625168

>>3625140
Aren't you going to call me nihilistic too?

>> No.3625175

>>3625168
wouldn't be surprised you are one you fuckin nutcase

>> No.3625181

>>3623694
what is symbiosis?

>> No.3625183

>>3625095
>Whatever you want it to be. Obviously you are nihilist scum so good luck trying to reason with you.
>hurrr

I'm not arguing morals or values, fggt. I'm saying that if someone picks a goal they want to achieve, the best way to get to it is through a structured, steady, march.

>>3625060
>depressing
It's only depressing if you can't overtake the rest of the world or succeed in the conflict of yourself against another.
Personally, I find competition thrilling.

>> No.3625185

>>3625094
>Why would I strive for perfection and greatness?
Accomplishing what others fail to do.

>Not basing your entire life and value system on your relative position to others
>I shiggy diggy

>> No.3625187

>>3625183
>the best way to get to it is through a structured, steady, march.

Then word it that way. Not some fancy french bullshit

>>3625185
get a load of this atheist nihilist cunt

>> No.3625189

>>3625185
Why does your happiness have to be relative to other people? That just seems to me really shallow.

>> No.3625202

Does anyone else just want to survive? If you could guarantee me enough food and a decent amount of money to maintain my current lifestyle indefinitely I would have 0 drive or aspirations. I just want to retire and life comfortably and that drives everything I do.

I think I'm a simple person mentally and emotionally.

>> No.3625205

when you're at the literal top you stop giving a fuck

>> No.3625239

>>3625187
>Success is obedience to a structured way of life
>fancy french bullshit
Get a load of this pleb

>>3625189
When did I say anything about happiness? I'm confident that I could be happy doing almost anything (once I dropped out of the workforce for six months and spent the entire time in a one room flat playing on a piano, going for walks, and staring at the wall-- I was happy the entire time). It seems to me that it's wasteful to simply be happy when I could be successful, respected, and powerful as well, and remain that way long after I die.

>shallow
Am I the only person who hates this word? It seems like it's always directed at people who are just living their lives, and often taking the hardest and tragic path in doing so. Most of the people who I'd consider "shallow" aren't at all distinguishable by the reasons for their actions.

>> No.3625277

>>3623699
You don't know how capitalism works, do you?

>> No.3625285

>>3625239
>Wasteful
That depends enormously on your concept of life and living. There's people who would argue you were wasting your life pursuing those things and not just devoting yourself to a greater good, like feeding the poor

>> No.3625301

My success feels greater when compared to the mediocrity of others. To have them fail would mean limiting the impact of my own work and yielding to their own incompetence.

>> No.3625309

>>3625285
>greater good
>feeding the poor

>> No.3625314

>>3625309
lol right

>> No.3625317

>>3623699
>this is what filthy collectivists actually believe

>> No.3625320

>>3625309
Helping the least privileged is the greater good for a whole lot of people who don't need power nor money because in the end you die.

>> No.3625325

>>3625079
Do you think great men come about through contentment with simply being the best in the room?

>> No.3625338

>>3625325
I don't strive to be a great man because it doesn't matter. If you aren't the next paradigm of mankind you might as well do what it makes you happy.

>> No.3625339

>>3625320
In the end the poor die too.

The greater good is that which leaves the best mark on future civilization after your own death. Current human complacence is not close to that. Money and power is equally as useless, true, but using money or power to further the species is not.

>> No.3625371

ITT: faux-sociopaths who have no real success or triumph to speak of, but talking as if they do.

>> No.3625379

>>3623699
It's a fundamental principle of mercantilism, otherwise, according to 16th century pseudo-economists, profit would be impossible.

We now know that the zero sum game is a fucking stupid concept and would mean that the growth seen in the past 300 years would be impossible.

If you're going to be an annoying edgy university kid, at least know tangentially what you're talking about

>> No.3625385

>>3625371
Most people on this board are in their teens-20s, unless you're richard the lionheart there's few who do have success at that age. Speaking of the concept abstractly is a better time waster than masturbation

>> No.3625387

>>3625339
>further the species
I'd rather work on getting people to not think of humanity as a species.

>> No.3625390

>>3625320
>>3625339
>implicating no afterlife

>> No.3625397

>>3625387
What else would we be?

>> No.3625402

>>3625387
>humanity is not a species

Then what is it exactly? some random excitable permutation the universe has shat up in a desperate attempt to categorize ones existence?

>> No.3625403

>>3625390
the supernatural is a philisophical dead end. It's pointless to discuss

>> No.3625407

>>3625403
You mean it's pointless to talk about spooks?

>> No.3625410

>>3625403
You cant even fucking spell "philosophical" you fucking dolt. You're just throwing buzzwords around anwyays, you have no idea about what you are talking about.

>> No.3625412

>>3625410
Check out this philostine.

>> No.3625418

>>3625412
Oh fuck off you atheist retard.

>> No.3625419

>>3623694

It's correct.

Just avoid being the failure yourself (too late).

>> No.3625420

>>3625410
>anwyays

what and idiot ;)

>> No.3625422

>>3625419
>goddamnit my parents didnt get me my hotpockets this time fuckin failures they are

>> No.3625424

>>3625420
eastern euro, scandinavian, or german detected

emotes are one of the most condescending things out there why don't these fucks realize that

>> No.3625427

>>3625390
No one knows what happens after you die because you're DEAD. The idea is fun and all but the sad truth is probably just like being asleep, but forever with no dreams.

>> No.3625431

>>3625410
not my first language sorry, my point stands

>> No.3625432

>>3625427
what a boring fucker you are

antenna in your brain obviously isn't working

go back to /sci/
i rebel against modern atheism truly the modern catholic church


melodramatic unemotional autist detected

>No one knows what happens after you die because you're DEAD

fuckin retard muh ASSUMPTIONS

>> No.3625435

>>3625431
No it doesn't. You don't even have a fucking degree in philosophy you retarded euro scum.

the "supernatural" isn't even a philosophical topic

>> No.3625436

>>3623940
But that's only because of my own weaknesses, my own insecurities, my own butthurt.

>> No.3625442

>>3625435
hostility is always the road to enlightenment

>> No.3625447

>>3625442
>wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

>> No.3625452

>>3625447
Truly a modern prometheus

>> No.3625457

>>3625432
>atheist
>ASSUMPTIONS
I never said I was an atheist.. but if you want to know I'm agnostic.. Why are jumping to conclusions(that's what theists and atheists do)?

If you have proof of of what happens after someone dies please link it, otherwise save that "rebel" attitude for a real cause.

>> No.3625461

>>3625427
>Implying there exists an abstract "I"
>Implying every thought "I"ve ever had hasn't been had an infinite amount of times, and won't be re-thought for infinity
>Implying death doesn't simply take the subjectivity out of experience
>Implying, once man dies, he won't become a hedonistic rock for ever, until he's instantaneously re-incarnated into someone with a similar enough mind to be indistinguishable from him
You sound like a boring and depressing person, m8

>> No.3625466

>>3625461
These are the kinds of opinions you form after reading Nietzsche at 17 and cringe at having twenty years later

>> No.3625480

>>3625466
enlighten me then.

Isn't it reasonable to say that I exist as X, with a variation of Y (given that my perception of the world and my self will vary depending on my mood, health, age, ect.), and that given a long enough time another person will come into existence that exists as X within the range of Y? Why isn't reincarnation a reasonable assumption?

>> No.3625488

>>3625480
There is no continuity of consciousness. A pure total clone is just as distinct a being as any other individual, if I am X and, after I die and decay, X appears in all measurable form, my rotted mind is not remade, something identical to it is. It's not you, you will cease to experience things once dead

>> No.3625489

What the hell is there to agree with? "It's not enough that I succeed, I have to be a fucking douche while I do it?"
0/10, strongly disagree.

>> No.3625492

>>3625480
>>3625488
What about the consciousness of a cloned person that has been cloned perfectly down to the last electron, not really a clone, more like a copy. Being the exact same as you in every way including all of your memories, ego, etc.
What is the other being?

>> No.3625496

>>3625488
Says you. Good luck explaining my precognitive dreams (i already know about deja vu and epilepsy and have it but this is different) and soon to be "demon" evoking work. suffer more, nihilist scum

why are you here, /sci/ scum? you never research this topic anyways, just blindly accept and falsely understand what you read in pop-sci magazine or books

>> No.3625498

>>3625488
bunch of assumptions and ybfalsifiable bullshit you just spewed out

>> No.3625499

>>3625498
unfalsifable*

fucking physicalists

>> No.3625509

>>3625488
Why would you assume there exists some "other" outside of X which defines me? If X is X (in all measurable forms), then why attempt to find a distinction where X=/=X?

>you will cease to experience things once dead
Would you say that a rock experiences things? Obviously it doesn't experience things in the way we do, and it doesn't have any subjective or individual interpretation of experience, but if you put it in the sun it will still heat up. Isn't that experience? Why wouldn't my body continue to experience things in some selfless, emotionless, objective state?

>> No.3626819

>>3623694
I don't, I can't bring myself to care about others.

>> No.3627058

>>3625424
newfag, just leave, you are embarassing yourself

>> No.3627493

>>3625057
This. I've met at least one, if not two bona fide sociopaths; you almost think "I have to stop these people." But then that entails getting swept up in their gust of dramatic carnage, so no thanks.

>> No.3627505

>>3627493
stop bumping shit threads

>> No.3627593

>>3625205
And you fall into complacence and someone else takes your place, for better or for worse.