/lit/ - Literature

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Anonymous Tue Mar 26 04:45:28 2013 No.3596720 [Reply] [Original]

Whats with all the GRRM hate lately?

I love reading and writing, and enjoy the classics. Hemingway, Poe, Dickens, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, etc, I love them all.

But I also tore through Song of Ice and Fire. I have never read any books as addictive and 'readable'. I would literally read for hours and hours on end, every day, till I finished them.

Sure it's not classic lit, but the man can weave a wonderful, entertaining and well crafted story.

Whats with all the snobbery?

For the record, I also read the Hunger Games because my sister bought them and it was so wildly popular, and I enjoyed them too. Obviously they were written very basically with a young audience in mind, and some parts really had me rolling my eyes, but it was an entertaining read and story.

TL;DR People need to calm the fuck down with all this book snobbery. Reading is great, and we should stop with all of this judgement and commend reading in all its forms.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 04:49:27 2013 No.3596726

Off the bat, he's fat and doesn't care about his appearance.

It isn't an intentional thing like Nietzsche, he just doesn't care. Why should I assume he cares about other things, like literary quality?

Killing off characters unexpectedly is a nice gimmick... but to continue it in the same series for so long? The guy is chained to one series purely for profit and it's just not respectable.

It's not like he's writing one-and-done novels where he kills off characters and explores significant themes. He's just doing soap opera shit.

GRRM is fucking terrible.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 04:52:27 2013 No.3596730

>>3596726
>Off the bat, he's fat and doesn't care about his appearance.
Who cares

>Why should I assume he cares about other things, like literary quality?
But the two are not linked you dense fucking idiot.

>Killing off characters unexpectedly is a nice gimmick... but to continue it in the same series for so long? The guy is chained to one series purely for profit and it's just not respectable.
More like the guy has no idea how to finish the series and is trying to gain time.

GRRM is no Howard or Wolfe but haters are pretty damn harsh with him.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 04:54:27 2013 No.3596731

Obviously novels like Crime and Punishment and the Brothers Karamazov are on another tier. Fyodor was a master and a genius, and explored a whole other level of the human experience. I had trouble sleeping when I was reading about Raskolnikovs exploits before bed.

But books like Hunger Games, Harry Potter and, dare I say, 50 Shades of Gray DO get young people and the general public interested in reading which, regardless of the content, is better for the mind than playing video games or wasting time on facebook. Yes, its depressing that the masses enjoy such pulp, and reflective of the time we live in, but I think a lot of the hate is unjustified.

When it comes down to it, the whole Game of Thrones series is a great fucking story, that will entrance anyone who gives it a chance. And that, to me, is successful writing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 04:56:27 2013 No.3596733 >>3596730 Howard and Wolfe were/are both fucking fatasses. Tired of genreists totally discounting the mind/body link. If you gain 200 pounds and grow a disgusting beard you're most likely not going to be writing anything I want to read.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 04:59:27 2013 No.3596736

>>3596726

The guys probably under a lot of pressure, too.

As I am sure you are a wildly successful, best selling author yourself, you can understand how difficult it would be to live up to hype and to create a story true to your vision.

The character killing hurts at first, but as you see how the story progresses, it does make a sort of sense. The last 2 novels will either secure his rightful place as a masterful storyteller or enrage his fanbase and taint what could have been an epic saga.

But pretentious analyzing aside, it is just a good fucking story. It's an entertaining guilty pleasure in between Hegel and Hemingway.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:00:27 2013 No.3596738 >>3596731 Video games are better for the mind than bad books, sorry. This has been scientifically proven

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:02:27 2013 No.3596740 File: 35 KB, 300x369, dumas.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3596733 Yeah because if you are overweight and have facial hair you can't write. Enjoy the Count of Monte Cristo asshole.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:03:27 2013 No.3596744 >>3596740 Bad example. Dude wrote escapist adventure books

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:04:27 2013 No.3596746 >>3596736 >it is just a good fucking story Is it? HBO (professionals) are changing it dramatically and their adaptation is more popular than the books had ever been. If the story was so good why did HBO have to change it so much?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:04:27 2013 No.3596747 File: 453 KB, 1488x921, grrm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >lately It's been around for years.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:05:27 2013 No.3596748 >>3596733 What the fuck is wrong with you. >Tired of genreists totally discounting the mind/body link. But your writing skills are not linked to your diet why would you even believe that what the fuck is wrong with you are you an actual retard.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:06:27 2013 No.3596749 >>3596744 It's still very well written. Stop being a retard pls.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:10:28 2013 No.3596753

>>3596747

LOL. So I guess the hatred has been stewing for some time, now.

And obviously changes will take place in book to screen adaptations. GRRM is a producer and consultant on the show and they run everything by him.

Can you name a single movie or show that has been entirely faithful to their written counterpart?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:10:28 2013 No.3596754 His writing style is plain-ass Stephen King meat and potatoes. I've been reading the books because the plotting and world-building are interesting, but Jesus that prose is tedious.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:10:28 2013 No.3596756 >>3596733 You're that faggot http://fuuka.warosu.org/lit/thread/S3578515 who pissed off everyone by being a fucking idiot.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:11:27 2013 No.3596757 >>3596749 It's populist crap, and being better than whatever populist crap is being written today isn't going to change that

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:12:27 2013 No.3596758 >>3596733 >>3596733 Yeah, because Three Musketeers, Man in the Iron Mask and COMC are so poorly written. Keep the your smut peddling and trolling to /b/ you dumb cunt of a whore.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:12:27 2013 No.3596759 >>3596757 >I enjoy only mature books for mature readers such as myself. Get the fuck out.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:15:27 2013 No.3596762 >>3596759 I never even said that, Anonymous. If you keep missing the point, then I'm afraid you're the retard here.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:16:27 2013 No.3596763 >>3596762 >if it was meant to appeal to the masses it must be devoid of literary value Damage control.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:18:28 2013 No.3596769 >>3596763 I never even said that, but in essence, it's true.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:18:28 2013 No.3596770

Listen, like I said, I read all sorts of books. I can get satisfaction and joy from arduously reading through Moby Dick and its 40 pages of whale distinction just as I can enjoy reading Storm of Swords.

Do I get more out of finishing a book like Anna Karenina than I do after GOT? Sure. I think and reflect a lot more while reading the works of dead brilliant writers. But for pure readability and an enthralling plot, I love to lose myself in Westeros, too.

And yes, the mans a fat bastard. He also looks like a pedo who does lines of whores he dresses up as Arya and does virgin fantasies, calling them cunts as he drizzles honey on their nipples and whips them with black licorice. But who gives a fuck. Its a good story, its addicting and it is entertaining.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:20:27 2013 No.3596773

>>3596770
>He also looks like a pedo who does lines of whores he dresses up as Arya and does virgin fantasies, calling them cunts as he drizzles honey on their nipples and whips them with black licorice.
Words are not actual actions
why do people fail to understand this

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:21:27 2013 No.3596775 >>3596733 >Howard and Wolfe were/are both fucking fatasses. Wolfe is 81 years old, give him some slack.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:23:28 2013 No.3596779

I just hope the sonofabitch doesn't croak before finishing or there will be blood.

I actually heard a rumor that he wrote down a synopsis of the closure of the tale and keeps it with his living will. If he is to die, his wife is to reveal the details over a span of 7 years, just to keep in form with his pacing.

Jan 1st 2014 Press Release from Mrs. Martin

Book six : Jon is alive. Theon has been raped. Danaerys has an orgy in order to get ships. Cercei is still a cunt and the trial is postponed.

Please like and follow us on twitter for the next update, 2 years from now.

..... Its what George would have wanted.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:27:27 2013 No.3596788 >>3596779 You can probably expect Wheel of Time-style continuation books. Apparently he's also told the TV show producers about major planned plot points as well.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:29:27 2013 No.3596790 >>3596770 >But for pure readability and an enthralling plot, I love to lose myself in Westeros, too. You're an idiot. ASOIAF is boring, generic, plodding soap-opera shite. Reading it is like watching paint dry.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:35:27 2013 No.3596794

/lit/ is too in love with the mentality "if it's popular, it's bad". These books are incredibly entertaining to read. And to deny that a lot of thought and manwork has been put behind it is quite foolish. AFFC had problems with the pacing and ADWD lacked a decent resolution, but on the whole, the books are consistent in quality.

>people using his weight as an argument to why he should be bad
He's writing 1,500 pages per book. You try to maintain weight under that pressure. Not to mention, GRRM does realize this and he often makes comments how he wants to be Tyrion but is in reality probably more like Samwell Tarly.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:37:27 2013 No.3596797

>>3596790

The fact that you would use such a hackneyed cliche about watching paint dry leads me to believe that you, in fact, are the idiot.

You could call the series many things, but for the most part, boring isn't one of them.

Oh, and I guess there is the whole notion that what people enjoy is sort of a subjective experience. So fuck you again, you unoriginal slime.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:40:27 2013 No.3596801 >>3596794 It is good to see reasonable people posting here as well. And I never knew that about George. Though now that you mention it, I feel bad for the guy. Poor sam, such a sweetheart. A fat, blubbering coward of a sweetheart.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:41:27 2013 No.3596802 >>3596790 >ASOIAF is boring, generic, plodding soap-opera shite. Reading it is like watching paint dry. Look at all these meaningless words

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:42:27 2013 No.3596803

>>3596746
>If the story was so good why did HBO have to change it so much?
Because HBO is more interested in pandering to the teenage audience than being faithful to the books. GRRM has stopped making comments about the show, really. When the first season aired, he was vocal that he liked it. But now, he only says that the show and the book are two entirely different things and shouldn't be compared to each other. It's obvious he's lost faith in the show.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:45:27 2013 No.3596806 File: 10 KB, 384x312, 1325094928008.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Can't stand his fucking writing style, same with almost all other high fantasy.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:58:27 2013 No.3596814

>>3596794
I must agree. The majority of /lit/ has shoved itself firmly onto a horse so high that I'm surprised it can still see the rest of us through the clouds. Many revel in the idea that if their favorite author is someone you've never heard of then they're are better than everyone else. Honestly it's getting to the point of being disgusting.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 05:59:27 2013 No.3596818

>>3596797
>You could call the series many things, but for the most part, boring isn't one of them.
It's extremely boring. You only think it's fun because it is the first or second genre book you've ever read.

>>3596802
>Look at all these meaningless words
What? Lemme repeat so you'd understand: ASOIAF is generic tripe, no different from the over 9000 boring books exactly like it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 06:01:27 2013 No.3596821 >>3596818 You don't like it, but it is one of the most highly praised series out currently sand sells millions of copies. Think for a moment, use consider the possibility, that it is you that is wrong and not everyone else.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 06:02:27 2013 No.3596823 >>3596818 You don't like it, but it is one of the most highly praised series out currently and sells millions of copies. Think for a moment, just consider the possibility, that it is you that is wrong and not everyone else.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 06:36:27 2013 No.3596848

OP I agree with you completely, /lit/ is overrun with pseudo-patricians who think that it's not worth reading a book if it's not had other books written about it.

>A good book, is a good book.

That's the point, if you enjoyed the book then it was good for you.

>/lit/erati are the reason that no one likes reading anymore, because they take the fun out of it, to make themselves feel smarter for reading archaic shit no one with a pulse enjoys.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:03:27 2013 No.3596946 File: 523 KB, 1723x1922, game of thrones.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:11:27 2013 No.3596957 My list of books I want to read before GRRM's is a mile long. I don't see why people recommending me him left and right should move it up.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:20:28 2013 No.3596970

The thing about Martin is, he's pretty good. His short fiction is actually well done, and ASOIAF is okay for waht it is, and miles ahead of Jordan or Cherryh.

But he's not Wolfe, or Dickens, or Tolkien or even close. He's a good writer who writes an okay series that has some cool moments and the prose is above average.

Anybody that neglects kipling or dickens or steinbeck to read him is making an odd decision, but to each his own. He's by far not the worst thing out there, He's not uneven and grating like King or godawful like meyers. He's pretty good.

faint praise maybe, but he doesn't deserve the damnation he's got on this board before.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:22:28 2013 No.3596975 >>3596970 Probably the most honest assessment of GRRM I've seen so far.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:24:27 2013 No.3596977

>>3596823
>You don't like it, but it is one of the most highly praised series out currently and sells millions of copies. Think for a moment, just consider the possibility, that it is you that is wrong and not everyone else.
Books that sell 'millions of copies' are popular _precisely_ because they're boring, generic and formulaic.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:25:27 2013 No.3596978 >>3596848 > because they take the fun out of it Go fuck yourself and die. ASOIAF is the definition of a boring, unfun book.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:27:27 2013 No.3596982

>>3596977
>Books are popular
>Because they're boring

I can't even into this elitism. Sir, take a step back and look at what you're saying here. GRRM isn't the greatest of writers, but he isn't terrible. Your condemnation of him merely makes you look idiotic.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:32:28 2013 No.3596989 >>3596823 isolate what you're saying here, and remove it from the context of the argument. You've just tried to pass an argument from popularity as solid reasoning. What the hell man? >This many people can't possibly be wrong!

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:35:27 2013 No.3596993

>>3596989
No, I am saying there is a possibility that you are wrong and they are right. I am not saying because it sells so much it is good, but that the critics who praise it may be correct in what they say. While popularity does not begot quality it does begot appeal, at least to some audiences.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:35:27 2013 No.3596994 >>3596982 >GRRM isn't the greatest of writers, but he isn't terrible. He's not terrible, no. He just writes mind-numbingly generic and predictable books. The only way you can think he's a "great storyteller" is if you've never read any fantasy before.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:36:27 2013 No.3596995 >>3596993 So you've.. said nothing and made a point that's irrelevant to everything?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:38:27 2013 No.3596997 >>3596995 I'm just trying to argue against the air of arrogance and superiority the majority of /lit/ users have shrouded themselves in lately. You are doing it in tis very post.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:41:28 2013 No.3597002

>>3596997
No.. you're using poor reasoning then resorting to enormously presumptious and weak attacks on people if it's pointed out. Saying "you could be wrong" is fucking obvious

3/10, if you repeat "High horse" or /lit/erati or some similar phrases you can improve that score!

Now tell me why he's compelling, why I should go from my very long list of books I want to read and go well out of my way to read in a genre I've never ever liked anything from?

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:44:28 2013 No.3597005

>>3597002
I am not be arguing for you to put aside any of your books from the start. I am being serious when I say I am just arguing for us on /lit/ to be a tad less opinionated and just let people enjoy the books they do instead of donating anyone who reads something someone doesn't consider worthy as some kind of degenerate.

Go on reading what you enjoy, that is what I'm asking to occur! Don't put down what you like because of what other people say, sure take recommendations, but don't let them rule you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:46:27 2013 No.3597007 >enjoys not only GRRM but The Hunger Games Absolutely disgusting

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:47:27 2013 No.3597008 >>3596731 >better for the mind than playing video games Reading 50 Shades of Grey is not better than playing Super Metroid. You're a fucking moron.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:48:27 2013 No.3597009 >>3597007 Think ya might be in the wrong thread bro.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:50:27 2013 No.3597011 >>3597008 Gaming is not like reading because it often requires a level of skill that is honed over time, it's not just consumption.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:50:27 2013 No.3597012

>>3597005
the thing is, you can do that, but please for the love of fucking god never ever use an argument from popularity nor an ad-hominem. I can't really be expected to take someone resorting to that seriously, come on. And before you say "mine's different!" it's not, it's exactly the same, in fact it's nearly textbook.

As an aside if I wanted some kind of escapism I really do think video games perform this better. The people that used to read pulp sci-fi in schools 50 years ago play video games now. The Witcher 2's a better game than the books in everything the books try to be.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:50:27 2013 No.3597013 >>3597011 The exact same thing is true for video games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:51:27 2013 No.3597016 >>3597013 *reading

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:53:27 2013 No.3597017 Game of thrones isn't really a great story, but it is great character development and world building. >It's a soap opera in a fantasy world. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but it's no lord of the rings.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:54:27 2013 No.3597019 >>3597017 >but it's no lord of the rings. Yeah, it isn't racist Christian propaganda and complete shit.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:54:27 2013 No.3597020

>>3597012
also as an addendum the elitism's there for a reason. /a/'s better for kicking out the big three anime. There's a small list of books that spark the most annoying discussions like Rand's, Wallflower, etc. the /lit/ board's for readers, I'd really like to talk about books for once instead of secret meta-threads and culture threads forever. the list of books that annoy the board are short and there are millions of fucking books, if you're actually a reader you can skip this small list and not piss off everyone else

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:56:27 2013 No.3597021 >>3597007 >Doesn't like the same things as me because I'm a brilliant patrician and a philosopher! >How dare anyone enjoy things that I consider below me. >Silly Pleb, do you even know the amazing beauty of farts? James Joyce is my light reading

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 08:59:27 2013 No.3597026 File: 991 KB, 500x252, tumblr_m3bk2tGfwC1qa44bco1_500.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3597019

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:00:27 2013 No.3597027 >>3597019 >still Thinking Tolkien was racist in 2013 Good job. I bet you also think the sex pistols were monarchists.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:02:27 2013 No.3597029 File: 11 KB, 356x376, 1286735847691.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3597019

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:08:27 2013 No.3597034

>>3596720
Because /lit is crammed with a bunch of high school age to twenty-somethings (with no job,etc.) that really want to sound better than the other people around them.

They have this thing that reading or pretending to do so -- half of these fuckwits have never actually read the books they claim -- makes them intellectual giants beside the normal plebian rabble.

Sometimes an author comes along that becomes very popular. Book sales go through the roof and the author's name is on the tip of everyone's tongue. This really makes some of these so-called /lits shit their pants.

To be fair, some of these books (Twilight for example) are fucking awful to read. Some of them, however , are very good; like our humble GRRM.

What buggers me is that /lit gets pissed that people are actually READING. They are putting down their remotes and video games and actually reading. We, some how, think this is bad?

I am all for it. Praise Harry Potter, ASOIAF, WWZ, etc. because they are actually getting people back into books.

Oh, and just for any of the critics of GRRM -
I, as a lit grad and now school teacher, find there are many parallels between ASOIAF and the Sagas of Icelanders.

If you don't know that name, then I highly recommend it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:09:27 2013 No.3597035 File: 603 KB, 1059x1006, someonehadtosayit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:09:27 2013 No.3597036 File: 138 KB, 926x956, 1364297464572.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3596738 GTFO, geek. You're on the wrong board.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:12:27 2013 No.3597037

>>3597019
>>Implying it is a Christian work and not strongly influenced by Norse and German mythology.

>>Forgetting that while Tolkien was a strong Catholic, he also worked for Oxford Uni. and was a specialist in all things Norse/Olde English/Old German

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:15:28 2013 No.3597040 >>3597035 >those who have truly mastered their art will strive to say as much as possible in as few words as possible Agreed, but GRRM doesn't do this.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:19:28 2013 No.3597042

>>3597035
I don't agree, but understand what you're trying to say.

I like sentances to have a good structure, yes -- but I can also applaud a creative, if not individual, style of writing.

Examples: P.G. Wodehouse, Oscar Wilde, W.H. Auden, Evelyn Waugh,J.W. von Gothe, Mark Twain, Shakespeare etc.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:20:27 2013 No.3597043 >>3597034 >>This

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:21:27 2013 No.3597044 oh god you're even more snob than /mu/

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:21:27 2013 No.3597045 >>3597040 Where's your infographic, then, faggot?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:35:27 2013 No.3597054 >>3597044 >oh god you're even more snob than /mu/ Yes, we are. Now go fuck yourself and get the fuck away off my board.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:35:28 2013 No.3597055 >>3597034 >plebian Stopped reading there. Back to /b/ with you, child. Come back when you've attempted Joyce.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:39:28 2013 No.3597058

These threads are always one or two plebeian fantasy fans replying over and over again because they're butthurt that people who are smarter than them tell them these books aren't very good. Just get over it, you faggots. You're allowed to like them, but when there are like 6 threads a day on a board full of people who read a lot and many of them study literature, people are going to get annoyed and say that GRR Token sucks and is a weird, creepy pervert (which he is). It's like the Korn of the literature world (or something like that). If you went onto a board that mostly talks about art music and made 6 threads a day talking about how great Korn is, and saying, "you faggots just listen to John Cage to seem smart. Korn is way better becus there a better band snd u guys are dum." There would be a similar response

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:42:28 2013 No.3597060 >>3597055 Hi, welcome to /lit pleb is an old word here. It is in common use on this board. I also think that poster was being sarcastic to its use. What that poster had to say was poignant and insightful.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:47:27 2013 No.3597067 >>3597016 I was going to answer the first post, then I read the other one and realised it's just a weak troll attempt.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:48:27 2013 No.3597070 >>3597058 >>Implying that all of the classics of literature were not the same in their own times. >>Implying that some lit-people in the 1800's didnt click their tongues at Sherlock Holmes because people weren't reading The Ethics.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:50:27 2013 No.3597072 >>3597070 >implying sherlock holmes is a 'classic' More genre fiction

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:52:27 2013 No.3597074 >>3597072 Actually, the Sherlock Holmes series is considered a classic. Not even trolling.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:53:27 2013 No.3597075 >>3597072 >implying Sherlock Holmes does not have literary merit. Also, please attempt to Straw Man harder next time.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:53:27 2013 No.3597076 >>3597072 Most classics are fiction, dumbfuck.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:53:27 2013 No.3597077 >>3596720 I enjoy it, anon. Maybe it became cool to hate on GRRM, maybe its shitty to other people, but why should that bother you? I like it, you like it. I think you liking that book is enough, don't you think?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:54:27 2013 No.3597078 >>3597072 Sherlock Holmes is a classic in every possible way you dumbfuck

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:54:27 2013 No.3597082 >>3597072 You're a fucking retard. GTFO.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:57:27 2013 No.3597086 >>3597072 WTF did I just read? This is a first on /lit. Man, you just called down the thunder. >>tl;dr? Sherlock Holmes is a classic.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:59:28 2013 No.3597089 >>3597072 i know this is getting a lot of responses but i just saw this while scrolling. really? dude you got no business being on lit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:59:28 2013 No.3597092 >>3597086 Brings a bit of hope back. At least we recognize Sherlock Holmes is a classic. We haven't patricianed that hard.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 09:59:28 2013 No.3597093 >>3597074 >>3597082 >>3597076 >>3597075 >>3597078 Waaaaaah!!! Muh spooky mystery stories!!!

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:00:27 2013 No.3597094 This thread is kinda proof to why /lit/ is the worst board on 4chan. Even /v/ is less autistic about popular games than you are. Swallow your pride and for once admit that something with broad appeal doesn't have to mean the end of the world for you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:00:27 2013 No.3597096 >>3597092 Someone a day or two ago seriously suggested infinite jest was a children's book because of how fucking patrician his tastes were

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:01:27 2013 No.3597097 >>3597093 You know that time when you know it's trolling, but you want to reply anyway because it makes just that buttmad. This... this is one of those times.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:01:27 2013 No.3597099 >>3597096 >infinite jest Thanks, you just destroyed that bit of hope I got.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:02:27 2013 No.3597101 >>3597072 >implying the Odyssey is a classic More genre fiction

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:03:27 2013 No.3597102 >>3597101 Inferno's shitty fan-fic pleb shit

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:04:27 2013 No.3597104

/lit/ is full of insecure little girls who can't enjoy their hobby without turning it into some sort of social contest. I know it's annoying, but just ignore the morons; you're not honour-bound to defend your favourite authors against all naysayers. 4chan is only useful if you're capable of tuning out the background noise and focusing only on the worthwhile posts.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:05:27 2013 No.3597106 >>3597101 Classic adj. Of or characteristic of the literature, art, and culture of ancient Greece and Rome; classical. Try again, retard

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:06:27 2013 No.3597108 >>3597106 >adj.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:07:28 2013 No.3597112 >>3597108 As in, "this is a classic book"

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:08:28 2013 No.3597115 >>3597106 Dude, read that first part of the definition. Seriously.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:10:27 2013 No.3597118 >>3597112 He was quite obviously using the other version of classic, and not only that you still fail to see how that's not an adjective?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:10:27 2013 No.3597119 >>3597106 >>Implying there is no such thing as Classical Music (Beethoven is rolling in his grave). >>Implying there isn't a Classical Western Canon

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:11:27 2013 No.3597124 >>3597104 Samefag, go home. Are you tired of spamming this thread with your shit yet? It's obvious this is the first time you've visited this board. Crawl back to whatever shit place you crawled out of already; you're not wanted or welcome here.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:12:27 2013 No.3597126 >>3597124 >Multiple people have an opinion oppose to yours >Must be a samefag

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:15:27 2013 No.3597129 >>3597124 So youre saying that many people cant have the same opinion? The same opnion that most of the seasoned vets of lit have lamented now for years? Yeah, it must be samefaggin huh? Fucking moron.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:22:27 2013 No.3597141

>>3597124
It was my first post in the thread, and this will be my last. I've been on this board since before the culture was dominated by unironically pretentious undergrads (as opposed to /mu/'s ironically pretentious undergrads), and I assure you, newfriend, that the level of discourse was much higher back then. Stop trying to make this board into something it's not.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:28:28 2013 No.3597150
File: 207 KB, 1000x750, Funny Chicken(1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

To loathe so-called commercial literature is a trait of the common "intellectual", since it is a way of letting out the need to perceive yourself as superior, which is a very recurrent characteristic on people with a very low self-esteem, and that is the case with people who enjoy erudite literature, especially the ones who write it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 10:29:28 2013 No.3597152 He is good enough. Not good enough to continue with the second book right after I've finished A song of ice and fire but still enjoyable.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 11:16:28 2013 No.3597240

>>3596720

I read and enjoy the books, but I do find myself concerned the man is writing/has written himself into a corner, and that the gap between each book combined with his age and general health means the series might finish HIM before he finishes the series.

I also feel he has fallen a bit too much in love with the shock of the hero dying. It was novel when Ned bit it at the end of book one, but since then he's been telegraphing the "psyche! Hero dead!" twist a bit hard for my tastes. The Red Motherfucking Wedding, for instance; that thing was hanging over me through book 3 like the Sword of Damocles, and I was angry when my tired prediction it would lead to another "and now this hero dies, so let us watch his enemies triumph and grow fat off his failure for several more books before they get their comeuppance" twist came true.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 11:26:27 2013 No.3597256 >>3597240 Funny, I thought the events which happened in ASOS were his best ideas yet and are obviously the start of the downfall of the Lannisters.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 11:32:28 2013 No.3597269

>>3597240
Where is this rumor about his general health always flying in from?

I'm just curious. Is it because he's fat? I've heard all range of things like he's got cancer ( he doesnt ), he's going blind ( he isnt ), etc.

Chesterton died at 62, but Martin is 64. By all aspects, the man must be a fucking millionare by now. I think he'll be living longer than we expect. The hero dying thing isn't new, and a very key element in a lot of old stories. Some one above mentioned the Icelandic sagas, which is a great example. I think he cant finish with 2 more books. It will have to be at least 3 books, I think.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 11:39:27 2013 No.3597283

>>3597269
are you kidding?

he's a fat, unhealthy fuck. he's been a d&d basement dweller his whole life. now, suddenly, he's rich, but he's still going to eat and fap himself to an early grave.

now, when you consider how long it takes him to write just one of his shitty books, it'll be a fucking miracle if he finally shits this whole turd out before he keels over on the toilet, tiny, scabby willy in hand

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 11:49:27 2013 No.3597296

>>3597283

What? George Martin has been rolling in money since the seventies, even before he started doing television he was raking it in. "Suddenly", i guess over the last twelve years, he's richer, but he hasn't had to bum a ride anywhere since well before you were born.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 12:04:27 2013 No.3597320

Why am I expected to like this series? Fantasy used to be a niche thing, and now it's like everyone's into it. You wouldn't recommend this shit to someone 20 years ago because chances are they weren't interested in some gay fantasy series. Now I'm getting called a snob by people who barely even read because I don't want to read about dragons and "ancient evil".

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 12:06:28 2013 No.3597324

>>3597058
> that GRR [...] is a weird, creepy pervert (which he is)
while reading the books, seeing the age of characters, developments and relations to "adult" characters, i was under the impression that his intent was indeed to start a controversy about this topic. not because he´s a pervert, but because he fucking uses klischees and cheap plot twists for a quick suprise and satisfaction.
what are the reasons you guys think he´s sick son of a bitch?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 12:06:28 2013 No.3597329 >>3597320 not liking something doesn't necessarily entail being a snob about it. the problem is with your attitude, not your taste.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 12:19:27 2013 No.3597353

>>3597324
I don't think he's a 'sick son of a bitch.' The violence and sex don't offend me. They're just exploitation. These books are pornography. They don't have any real literary merit. That's not a bad thing in itself, (I jerk off to internet porn and watch action movies like everyone else) but it doesn't make them 'good.' The fans of this series calling people snobs for not liking these books and responding to posts about how great the books are are the ones with the attitude problem. I've read the first four books in the series and I think they are fucking terrible. I got sort of hooked and I don't really stop reading books in the middle and I just kept going with these things until it got to be too much. The prose is horrible, they read like screenplays for the tv show, the story is completely aimless, Martin doesn't have some master plan or know how it's going to end, he's just taking his characters on pointless journeys and taking thousands of pages to say what a good writer could in a fraction of his word count. I wish I could get the time I spent reading these back. I'm not a fan of fantasy genre stuff like this. I prefer more 'literary' stuff. Not everyone likes fantasy stuff like this, so stop getting upset when they don't.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 12:28:28 2013 No.3597366

>>3597324
na hes ffollowing actual practices of the time he writes about.

Long before our modern society - 13 was the normal age for girls to get married. It is even in most books from that time frame. he's being a traditionalist in that sense, I suppose.

>>3597320
Doesn't have to be your taste. No one is saying you have to read it - but your attitude towards it is what is really hilarious.

Your also calling classical works like Frankenstein/Modern Prometheus, The Volsung Sagas, The Book of Kells, The Arthurian cycle, The Ulster Cycle, The Nibelungenlied, Journey To The West, Dante's Inferno, and many others ''gay''.

>>3597283
You're assuming he is unhealthy. You're also assuming D&D is unhealthy...though I actually don't play it. Considering that each of his books is a MINIMUM of 900 pages, I think he's been doing fairly well.

Pray tell, what do you consider great CURRENT literature? Let me aim an ink dart at it and see if it holds up.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 12:42:28 2013 No.3597399 File: 43 KB, 450x373, 1362573886634.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3597072

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 12:50:28 2013 No.3597414

>>3596720
What snobbery are you talking about?? He sucks because he is a shitty writer. Or would it make you feel better if I said, I think he sucks because I consider him a shitty writer? I'm not going to circlejerk him just to make you feel better. You're the snob here, OP; check your privileges.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 13:04:24 2013 No.3597446

>>3597366
Great? hard to say.
Pynchon and Mccarthy are both active US authors who are much better than Martin. Umberto Eco is much better than Martin. Neal Stephenson is much better than Martin. I like Neal Stephenson, I think he's fun. I don't like George Martin. Neal Stephenson writes fantasy too nut when people dislike Neal Stephenson, nobody accuses them of being a snob

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 13:09:24 2013 No.3597457

>>3597035
Considering the fact that books could be written just on the quality of the first (and last) sentence of Finnegans Wake, I would say Joyce is the better writer.

Note: I'm not even commenting on the cliche'd use of Martin's sentence in the overall scheme of the text. Just another example of his shit writing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 13:11:24 2013 No.3597463 >>3597070 >>Implying that all of the classics of literature were not the same in their own times. Yes. That's exactly what I'm implying because it's correct. You're an idiot for thinking otherwise.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 13:22:27 2013 No.3597480

ITT: "My opinion" " Your opinion is stupid!" "No your opinion is dumb!" "My opinion is right." "No my opinion is right!" "Your opinion is wrong too"

In other words, pointless arguing. You guys don't have better things to do then argue over some man's books?

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 13:37:27 2013 No.3597507

Everybody I know who reads GRRM also has awful taste in literature. And tv, film, and music, really. I can't say it's bad because I haven't read it, but it seems to be really big among people who have only read Harry Potter and The Hunger Games outside of what they had to read in high school.

There's so many books I feel like I need to read right now. GRRM is so far down the list, I doubt I'll get to it at all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 13:39:28 2013 No.3597514 >>3597072 you are a professional, congratulations

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 13:41:27 2013 No.3597520 >>3597480 Oh my god, man. You're on the internet. What exactly did you expect? Civility?

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 14:23:27 2013 No.3597594

I read the first ASOIAF book and was pretty underwhelmed. It was a bit of a shock to see all the attention it got here. There used to be a huge thread everyday with anons speculating and arguing about the series. I didn't really get it, but it didn't bother me too much. GRRM fans did have an inclination to butthurt and I see that hasn't changed. BTW I think the anon who said Sherlock Holmes isn't literature is right. Same goes for Dickens. I don't get it when people like Rothfuss cite Dickens as an example of "high literature"

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 16:15:28 2013 No.3597833 >>3597507 So you haven't even read the books? You're even worse than the people you proclaim to hate. Look at yourself, man. You've become a horrible thing.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 16:17:27 2013 No.3597844

>>3597353
>Martin doesn't have some master plan or know how it's going to end,
You should look into some of the dreams and prophecies that characters are exposed to in the books. Shit that the characters dreamt of in the first two books are only now starting to become relevant. I think he's had a plan. It's just that he didn't expect the road would be so long to the destination.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 16:27:31 2013 No.3597874

>>3597594
Yeah, Dickens sucks a lot more than Doyle. Holmes is entertaining mystery fiction, but Dickens is just fucking boring.

They were both hacks. They got paid by the word so most of it is just eloquent nonsense. Dickens isn't so long because he had so much to say, he's long because he got paid for it.
Martin's books are long because he can't fucking edit himself. He meanders constantly and he takes way too many words to say something simple, like, "She had diarrhea."

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 17:56:28 2013 No.3598168 >>3596806 GRRM writes low fantasy though....

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 18:19:29 2013 No.3598252 File: 116 KB, 500x504, Augustus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Holy fuck, the faggotry in this thread. Why can't people just read what they like?

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 18:27:27 2013 No.3598277

>>3597002
>>3597002

You shouldn't dickhead. Read whatever you want. Read the Metaphysics, read Sophocles, read Virgil and The Oddysey (then read Ulysses, and with a smug smile, make notes and exclamations on the side of all the allusions you get). Then read the Canterbury tales and brag about how the Olde English isn't lost on you, and then Henry James, then War and Peace, but not the Constance Garnett translation, as it is dry, but the Peaver/Volohonsky version because no one does Russians like they do). Then after that, stick a well lubricated eggplant up your ass while listening to Beethovens 9th, 2nd movement on a vinyl while smoking a long tipped ciggarette.

Frankly. I dont give a shit what you read, and the original post was never meant to persuade anyone to read him. It was just a comment on how people like you, and the other self righteous pricks on this board like to complain and call his work trash.

After you sell 15 million copies of anything, your opinion can considered.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 18:59:27 2013 No.3598399 So I can either detest GRRM and be a snob or love him and be a pleb? Is there any middle ground here?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 19:03:27 2013 No.3598411 >>3596738 Video games are trash bro sorry.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 19:04:27 2013 No.3598416 I have only seen the show but he seriously needs to finish some of the shit he starts. He keeps introducing new stories and doesnt resolve anything. It gets frustrating

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 19:05:27 2013 No.3598420

LOL @ people calling Dickens and Doyle hacks.

I guess I should not expect more - it is a 4chan message board, after all - but it is laughable that nobodies are calling on people that have written millions of words of published print, that will endure through the end of the English language, hacks. It doesn't make you seem smart.

Dickens got verbose at times because the higher the word count, the higher the pay, but I think it is safe to say that you will never write anything even close to the Pickwick Papers, Hard Times or Oliver Twist in your lifetime. I wouldn't be surprised if you have never published a single thing in your life, actually.

The point of the post is that there shouldn't be so much hatred for authors like GRRM. Obviously he has struck a chord, and millions of people consume his stuff like crack.

I was wrong to even mention 50 shades in the OP... I did not "read" it as much as I skimmed, but I found that I wanted to know what happened next and did read all three in a few hours. The writing is ridiculous and simple, but it did keep me interested (if only to see how ridiculous her writing of Anastacia giving her "Christian meat popsicle" a voracious deepthroat).

Bottom line is, that I can enjoy Dostoevsky, and Homer and Hemingway, and I can also enjoy more popular books, like ASOIAF. Doesn't mean I have delusions to the quality and the timelessness of the works, but I don't think reading should be this snobbery contest where you cannot enjoy different materials. It is encouraging to hear the reasonable people in this post that recognize that reading Stephen King does not automatically make you a fool, just like reading Dante doesn't make you brilliant.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 19:11:27 2013 No.3598442

>Hemingway in a nutshell
This website is the story and the story is written in the "style" of Ernest Hemingway, the greatest American writer that ever lived according to at least a few.

It is written with gusto. It is written for laughs and the joy that comes from bad writing.
The writers of "A Bad Hemingway Story" struggle with the short sentences and the runon sentences and the pointless but rich descriptions for that is what writers of Bad Hemingway must do.

They write. They use email lists to write. They use the keyboard and the mouse. But most of all they write.

Join them, for if you have gotten this far, you are already on your way to being one of them. You long to run with the bulls and fight the mighty marlin and to make love to a woman with a mustache.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 20:35:28 2013 No.3598641

>>3598399
Yes: love him and not be pleb? The two aren't mutually exclusive, contrary to what /lit/ wants to believe. Criticize what deserves criticism and give credit where it's due.

I don't like Martin's writing very much, and from this point of view it can be said that he isn't a good writer, or that there isn't much literary worth in asoiaf.

But this is only in the strict sense of the quality of the author's prose. Literature has many other aspects and components that need to be gauged other than simply the author's language. Martin's approach to historical causation and his ability to delineate how individuals are subject to the omnipresent hand of institutions and events is incredible. He doesn't describe these with beautiful language in an obvious manner, but by inferring them through the progression of plot and events. It's this subtle but powerful approach that gives asoiaf artistic value, even if it isn't in the narrow sense of literary value. His skill with character development/conception and plot (addictive is the only correct description) is also very accomplished. Even his dialogue is humorous and moves along nicely.

I understand the dislike for his writing style, but it reaches unbearable levels on this board. What's even worse though is that although some people will concede that this series is 'fun' or 'entertaining', I'm continuously amazed at how the strengths of this series is never mentioned.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 20:55:27 2013 No.3598704 >>3598420 Did I ever claim to be a writer? Maybe I just like books that don't suck.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 20:56:27 2013 No.3598708

>>3598641
Also I feel compelled to add: this board prizes itself on its intellect, yet one of the most embarrassing things I see on 4chan is people on /lit/ linking Martin killing off his characters with the need for 'cheap plot twists', as has been mentioned above. The fallibility of his characters, and the often unforeseen and even anticlimactic manner of their demise, is part of delineating if you will some of the central themes he devotes the series to: the ebb and flow of fortune as a result of the pursuit of power. This can be observed in an infinite number of episodes throughout history; it isn't done simply for thrills.

I'm not automatically calling anyone who dislikes these books a snob, but the regurgitation of the same phrases in attacking it, along with the disregard for what these books do right, has me worried.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 20:57:27 2013 No.3598713 >stop disliking things that I like!

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 21:03:27 2013 No.3598734 >>3597874 >Dickens isn't so long because he had so much to say, he's long because he got paid for it. Prove it. I bet you're one of those idiots who thinks IJ is a masterpiece.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 26 21:05:28 2013 No.3598739 >>3598277 >After you sell 15 million copies of anything, your opinion can considered. That's utter bullshit. Does Simon Cowell have to be a good singer before he can judge anyone else? You are a colossal retard.

Anonymous Tue Mar 26 21:09:27 2013 No.3598755

Just thought I'd weigh in here about Dickens:

He WASN'T paid by the word, that's a myth. Writing in serial was more profitable, but he wasn't paid by the word. He tended to get verbose because people who read serials back in the day wanted to feel like they got their money's worth. It was to help secure his readership.

Personally, I think he was such a good wordsmith, that it rarely feels tedious. Dat David Copperfield, man.

Anonymous Wed Mar 27 00:36:27 2013 No.3599393
File: 104 KB, 916x630, beard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3597463
Dude, you're a fucking moron.
All classics became boomingly popular in their time. Count of Monte Cristo? Don Quixote? The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy?

These are books that are corner-stones of Western Canon (not to mention they are all fiction). They were huge successes when they first came out.

ASOIAF has already been acclaimed in many literary circles.

There were many critics at their time that said it was horrible and would never be a classic -- just like you are saying today. But guess what happened?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 27 00:37:27 2013 No.3599395 >>3597480 Critics always battle. >>3597507 You're making horrible assumptions.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 27 00:43:27 2013 No.3599412 >>3597072 what...what did I just read? Do you even know what a classic is?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 27 00:45:27 2013 No.3599419 >>3598420 >Dickens got verbose at times because the higher the word count, the higher the pay, Just for the record, that defines him as a hack. 'Hack' means an author who writes what (or how) he writes because it pays.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 27 00:50:27 2013 No.3599429 This thread is a massive, multi-faceted troll. Some anon replied to a reply to my post posing as me and discrediting my original, well reasoned post. I assume that's what's going on in most of this thread

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 27 00:57:27 2013 No.3599440 >>3599419 Too bad that's a myth.

Anonymous Wed Mar 27 01:04:29 2013 No.3599450

>>3599440
Well, no, not really.
His 'novels' were serialized. Since he was so popular he could drag that shit out over many weeks. His prose is eloquent and impressive (unlike Martin's) in small doses (like a chapter a week) but it's fucking tedious to read his shitty books these days. (Except the short ones. A Christmas Carol is fantastic to get in the holiday spirit)

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 27 11:32:23 2013 No.3600324 >>3599450 But he wasn't paid by the word, he was paid per installment. He got verbose because readers wanted to feel like they were getting their money's worth

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