And then there's this thing

[Anonymous No.3548778]

So I picked this thing up a year ago and couldn't get more than halfway through it. Which sucks, because it felt like there was potential there. It just got buried under every woman acting like a smug bitch and no one ever calling them out on it.

Probably the worst offender was Nynaeve. While I get that everyone in her home village considers her function important, it's not like she has zero accountability or can rule by fear. She's basically a kid, obviously stubborn, immature, and a gigantic hypocrite. Yet none of these things are ever pointed out by anyone, even those poor bastards on the village council who have to deal with her bullshit on a daily basis. Her answer for pretty much anything she doesn't agree with is "You're a man and therefore wrong," and somehow this is enough to evaporate any response because...why? It's pretty clear the council views her as a nuisance, yet they constantly bow out to the supposed wisdom of this, what, 14 year-old? Does no one see that the only reason she has her position is due to her affinity with magic?

Am I a misogynist, is Robert Jordan a hack writer, or is this some kind of exercise in illustrative gender role reversal?

And, most importantly, how am I supposed to get into this book series?

[Anonymous No.3548979]

>>3548778
>It just got buried under every woman acting like a smug bitch and no one ever calling them out on it.
Imagine 10 000 more pages of that.
>is Robert Jordan a hack writer
According to an interview with him from long ago he puts a little something of his wife in all his female characters...

[Anonymous No.3549215]

>>3548979
>he puts a little something of his life in all his female characters

If that's what he calls a little, I'd be afraid to see the whole package.

[Anonymous No.3549217]

>>3549215
*wife

[Anonymous No.3549262]

It's a matriarchal society due to the taint on saidin, the male half of the True Source.

Men in this society, especially teenagers, act like "smug bitches" all day long because of male privilege. Womyn in WoT are the ones with the power, but it grates at you because your misogyny requires womyn to be powerless to be acceptable.

[Anonymous No.3549285]

>Am I a misogynist

Just for noticing this? Hardly.

I'm fairly certain Jordan was, though.

>And, most importantly, how am I supposed to get into this book series?

I really don't see why you'd want to. There's far better stuff out there.

[Anonymous No.3549293]

>>3549262
>Men in this society, especially teenagers, act like "smug bitches" all day long
they do?

[Anonymous No.3549310]

>>3549293

Please don't feed it.

[Anonymous No.3549320]

>>3549285
>There's far better stuff out there.
Not really. Doubt you've read it.

[Anonymous No.3549337]

>>3549320

I read about as much as I could stomach of every single female character being an insufferable bitch, and every single overused fantasy cliché being played completely straight - which is to say, about half of the first book.

Yes, yes, I'm sure it gets better five books and some 2500 pages on, but there's stuff out there that I can - get this - enjoy from the get go.

[Anonymous No.3549346]

>>3549320
I'm not that guy but I have read most of WoT (dropped it after finishing book 9) and I can confirm that there is far better stuff out there.

[Anonymous No.3549350]

>>3549262
the whole series is misandry

[Anonymous No.3549355]

>>3549337
>>3549346
QED

[Anonymous No.3549380]

I understand this series to be fairly divisive here, but we can agree that it has some of the better female characters of epic fantasy, right?

[Anonymous No.3549384]

>>3548778
> Yet none of these things are ever pointed out by anyone, even those poor bastards on the village council who have to deal with her bullshit on a daily basis. Her answer for pretty much anything she doesn't agree with is "You're a man and therefore wrong,"

The world in WoT is a matriarchy. I found that interesting, and gender role reversal for some things; but it feel apart for me since it's based on the supposition that woman could only be powerful if they possess magic, and should therefore be revered and respected, because not doing so will make them use it on you. You would argue the Three Oaths would prevent that from actually occurring, but the behaviour is that they *would* use their powers on you, and common folk definitely revered them as if that were true. Living in fear of a sex because of what they might do with their supernatural powers is not enough basis for a matriarchy.

when you stop to think about it jordan was quite disingenuous to the female sex, despite his efforts to paint what a matriarchy might be like. Since magic was involved, it kind of ruins it.

The worst part is that, despite trying to have strong female characters, he writes annoying ones like nynaeve. Her character traits are confronted, but jordan constantly would avoid saying what he wants but stone-walling his own dialog by going in a total illogical direction, basically as you quoted earlier.

Rand, and other characters, don't even try to articulate their arguments - they do not confront but internalize their arguments and feel as if they lost the argument; there are parts in the series where this behavior is confronted but then side tracked with 'stop being a woolheaded, sheepherder'.

[Anonymous No.3549393]

>>3549384
It could have been more interesting if the entire matriarchal society hadn't been a part of Jordans domination fetish.

[Anonymous No.3549395]

>>3549393

Deep seated hatred for his wife, more like.

[Anonymous No.3549416]

>>3549395
really? this is the first I've heard of this, is it just a theory?

[Anonymous No.3549420]

>>3549380
people don't like it here because it became too popular because of the HBO series

before that /lit/ loved it

[Anonymous No.3549422]

the matriarchal society in Randland is the inverse of the patriarchal society around the Medival Ages on earth.

Once you understand that, the early character development start to make a lot more sense.

[Anonymous No.3549426]

>>3548778

Its a matriarchal society, which (surprise surprise) is as sexist/more sexist than any pre-women's revolution culture we have here. It's a pretty accurate inversion.

[Anonymous No.3549428]

>>3549416

[Anonymous No.3549432]

>>3549416
She had a child with another man, but never gave Jordan an heir.

She worked for Jordan's publisher before they got married. It's suspected the publisher forced her into marriage so they could control the series.

She leveraged her emotional control over Jordan to extend the series purely out of profit motive. David Drake wrote about this on Baen's Bar.

[Anonymous No.3549439]

>>3549420
I sincerely hope the HBO series does not compromise Martins writing.

[Anonymous No.3549440]

>>3549432

[Anonymous No.3549445]

This is the most overrated series in the history of /lit/. The first book, "The Eye of the World" is really, really, really boring. Almost a chore.

The next two books are decent, and then take a constant nose dive all the way to the most current literal landfill of a book.

I guess when people devote so much time to something, they find ways of justifying it.

[Anonymous No.3549450]

>>3549439
He contributes to its creation (though he does not have veto power)

[Anonymous No.3549452]

>>3549439
You can't make his writing any worse than it already is.

[Anonymous No.3549455]

>>3549445
when i read something i finish it. I won't say this was good; but I can at least say I read the whole thing. does it make me have a more valid opinion? no

lol capthcha:
emgemen cumulation

[Anonymous No.3549468]

>>3549445
The Shadow Rising was my favorite book in the series, but de gustibus non est disputandum.

Also, /lit/ mostly hates this series so it's hardly overrated.

[Anonymous No.3549470]

>>3549445

[Anonymous No.3549478]

>>3549452
Martins books are fairly well written. He effectively uses a limited third person point of view to allow for readers to better understand his characters and I'd say his world building is nothing short of fantastic.

[Anonymous No.3549488]

>>3549445
That's why I stick to short running work, the only marathon runner I ever got into was ASOIAF. Quality over quantity every time.

[Anonymous No.3549513]

>>3549488
It always happens, I don't know why I bother to read series anymore.

>The Dark Tower
I stopped when King started to put himself in the fucking book

>ASOIAF
I read this all, and wanted my life back.

>Wheel of Time
"Any second now its going to get really good!....any....second now......"

[Anonymous No.3549517]

>>3549478
>"It was the size of a penny"
>the size of a penny
>of a penny
>a penny

Shut the fuck up idiot. This is an actual quote from ASOIAF, which was obviously set in America, and with American currency.

Just fuck off and die.

[Anonymous No.3549520]

>>3549517
That's pretty minor.

[Anonymous No.3549521]

I really enjoyed Wheel of Time, solid B+ series imo, but dem Faile-related chapters are like a brick wall

sage for Faile

[Anonymous No.3549526]

>>3549520
Yeah, no.

When I was reading it stopped me in my tracks and completely ruined his validity as a writer.

[Anonymous No.3549532]

>>3549526
Have fun letting superficial details kill your enjoyment of things.

[Anonymous No.3549537]

>>3549526

[Anonymous No.3549542]

>>3549513
>I stopped when King started to put himself in the fucking book

You stopped at the first book?

That series is hardcore King metamasturbation from the word go.

[Anonymous No.3549545]

>>3549532
>>3549537
EXPLAIN WHY THERE'S A FUCKING AMERICAN PIECE OF CURRENCY IN WESTEROS?

WAS THIS WORK NOT EDITED?

[Anonymous No.3549548]

>>3549526
Didn't they have ha'pennies in ye olde England? Also called half-pennies?

Everything I need to know, I learned from Animaniacs.

[Anonymous No.3549551]

I'm up to book 10 of this series, and I doubt I'll finish it. Aside from being too busy to devote any time to it at the moment, I just don't think I could pick it up and force myself through another Nynaeve/Egwene/Elayne/Faile chapter.

The main problem with the series is that you have to force yourself through the shit chapters to get to the good stuff. As far as I'm concerned the entire plot should have just been Matt, Perrin and Rand. Cut the entire thing down to 4-5 books or a trilogy.

[Anonymous No.3549552]

>>3549545
a penny is a unit of currency in Westeros, later in the books there's a dwarf who calls herself Penny.

[Anonymous No.3549572]

>>3549551
>book 10
I'm sorry.

You can just skip to the last chapter of that one. Knife of Dreams is great, though. The rest is the Sanderson hybrid which you may or may not find to be an improvement.

[Anonymous No.3549577]

>>3549521
I thought the elayne chapters here the most unbearable.
man, fuck elayne

[Anonymous No.3549587]

>>3549551
Honestly you're just about the reach the good part. I would understand if you ere at book 7 I'd say just give it up but you might as ell finish since the last 4 are the best.

[Anonymous No.3549601]

>Hey, looks like the series is coming to a close
>Guess I'll write some prequels before it finishes
>Think I'll try an experiment in book ten just for a change of pace
>Lol oops I died
- Robert "Huge Faggot" Jordan

[Anonymous No.3550810]

>>3549601
I lold

[Anonymous No.3550824]

the series is good until book 6 or so, 6-11 are unreadable and the last few books (after RJ died) are pretty good

[Anonymous No.3550828]

>>3548778
Not sure if anyone corrected you. Nynaeve is around 26 years old. I don't have time now to reply to all other statements you made.

[Anonymous No.3551061]

>>3550824
The only unreadable one is 10.

[Anonymous No.3551074]

>>3549601
To be fair, he also wrote "Knife of Dreams", which was after he found out he was dying from having an exploding heart, and you can SEE that he knows he's running out of time. Suddenly there's no more wasting time, and the plot kicks into overdrive.

It was the last book he ever wrote. Just as he always said, he stopped writing when they nailed the coffin shut.

[Anonymous No.3551077]

Also, and I know it might be hard to believe, but as much of a bitch as Nyneave may seem to be in Book 1, she turns out to be one of the most bro of all the female characters. In fact, I'd call her the second most bro woman in the Wheel of Time - first place naturally going to Min, who is the Bro of Bros.

[Anonymous No.3551080]

>>3551061
Just...fuck the Crossroads of Twilight. Fuck that whole book and its "Here are 1000 pages of characters reacting to hearing about the events of the previous book".

I mean, fine, the previous book was a gamechanger, but STILL.

[Anonymous No.3551088]

>>3551077
Min masterrace. I fucking hated Elayne though. God damn.

[Anonymous No.3551101]

>>3551088
I...kinda liked Elayne at the beginning, but just as Nyneave starts out as a bitch and turns into a really cool person, Elayne...does the exact opposite.

[Anonymous No.3551133]

>>3549526

[Anonymous No.3551484]

>>3550828
oh snap

[Anonymous No.3553736]

Is it true that the new writer refused to read Robert Jordans notes?

[Anonymous No.3553817]

If you read on,

basically all the women in the WOT series are...women. No different from the ones that exist in real life or have ever existed.

He fleshes it out, for the most part they like to be dominated by their protector guy or whatever behind closed doors. Their man-jawed annoyingness is basically due to society forcing their roles on them (they are all hillary clintons or something). But then you have shit like based Rand getting like 10 wives and they are okay with it (muh patriarchy)....

I'm doubtful if any of this shit is not representative of human nature. Before the idea of misandry/misogyny or feminism or w-e there was "the battle of the sexes". We have competing interests, always fighting.

I, for one, as a strong black woman, find it interesting.

[Anonymous No.3553880]

>>3549517
>implying the U.S. is the only place to ever have a penny or use that term to describe one

[Anonymous No.3554033]

>>3549545
Because grown ups in the professional publishing business aren't as anal retentive about something as insignificant as... well... a penny.

[Anonymous No.3554101]

Two Rivers. The Shire.
Moiraine. Gandalf.
Lan. Aragorn.
Baerlon. Bree.
The "congars and the coplins"?? Can you say "Sackville-Bagginses"? (that just pissed me off at how he copied Tolkien, there)
Shaitan the "Dark One". Sauron "the Dark One"
The Emond fielders. The Hobbits.
Nym. Ents.
Fades. The Nazgul.
Trollocs. Orcs.
The Blight. Mordor.
Moria. The Ways.
Padan Fain. Gollum.

I have read up to page 210 in the Eye of the World (paperback edition). I can say nothing about the rest of this book, or the rest of the series -- and I do intend to continue reading -- but as of right now I am utterly convinced that this book is nothing but a cheap rip-off of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

I really want to be reassured that this book is more than it seems, because it has a lot of potential.

[Anonymous No.3554117]

>>3554101
I heard that was intentional, but who knows.

[Anonymous No.3554156]

>>3554101
>>3554117
>In the first chapters of The Eye of the World, I tried for a Tolkienesque feel without trying to copy Tolkien’s style, but that was by way of saying to the reader, okay, this is familiar, this is something you recognize, now let’s go where you haven’t been before. I like taking a familiar theme, something people think they know and know where it must be heading, then standing it on its ear or giving it a twist that subverts what you thought you knew. I must admit that I occasionally drop in a reference—for example, there’s an inn called The Nine Rings, and Loial is seen reading a book entitled To Sail Beyond the Sunset—but it isn’t a regular thing by any means.

>I purposely did the first, oh, perhaps 80 pages of The Eye of the World as an homage to Tolkien

There's more just search for Tolkien at http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

[Anonymous No.3556433]

>>3554101
>Two Rivers. The Shire.
also,both had the bomb herbs. it reminds me of the part Rodel Itralde was fucking Seanchan shit up and was onto his last bit of 2rivers3bac right before Rand comes and saves 'em and sends him to The Blight.
>Moiraine. Gandalf.
Moiraine was a little bit of a let down for me(the cover made me think she'd be hardercorer)
>Lan. Aragorn.
Aragorn kinda just pledged allegiance to Frodo and didn't have much to really teach him and be more entangled in the main characters story like Lan did with Rand. for example; Lan taught Rand how to fight with his sweet ass Heron-marked Blade and even how to Sheathe the Blade even knowing that Rand was The Dragon reborn. which made the scene toward the end of WH, when they fall off the roof.
>Baerlon. Bree.
Main character got some sweet pussy from Baerlon.
>The "congars and the coplins"?? Can you say "Sackville-Bagginses"? (that just pissed me off at how he copied Tolkien, there)
we all have asshole family and neighbors
>Shaitan the "Dark One". Sauron "the Dark One"
eh..what else do you call an ultimate evil?
>The Emond fielders. The Hobbits.
yes
>Nym. Ents.
you could also argue the Ogier had some Ent similarities as well, tree singing but also being exemplary stonemasons (kinda like the Dwarves) and like the Elves as well they could book it from that world, which they decided to stay and send trollocs though a huge Ogier powered papershredder.
>Fades. The Nazgul.
I would think you'd go with the Forsaken/Chosen to be the Nazgul ripoff
>Trollocs. Orcs.
the names might sound similar and their roles are the same but physically theyre not much the same, whereas the orcs are goblin elven abominations, trollocs are creatures of DNA tampering and look like huge humans like faces of bears, hawks, hogs etc.. but with very human eyes. chapters where a dude sees some arm floating in some trolloc stew are pretty crazy.

[Anonymous No.3556554]

>>3556433
>Trollocs
>look like huge humans like faces of bears, hawks, hogs etc

>implying they weren't humans with tusk helmets

sage for not reading the books

[Anonymous No.3556572]

>>3554033
"The Devil is in the details." GRRM said this himself. It is minor but it still says something about the author.

[Anonymous No.3556611]

>>3554101
Works so well on a meta level it hurts. After all, this is a series where legend and myth from everywhere are recycled and always slightly different from the last iteration. Excalibur becomes Callandor, Arthur Artur, Lancelot Lan. Perrin wields a magic hammer named muh jolnir and Mat is hanged and loses an eye. Etc. etc. The fact that the very story itself is a twisting of a famous "legend" of sorts of our time is just beautiful. Robert Jordan was truly a master storyteller.

[Anonymous No.3556615]

>Read reviews
>All mixed
>Not worth the time
>Can't be bothered to download for my Kindle

bleh

[Anonymous No.3556667]

>>3556572
There is details, and then there is 5 pages describing a plain fucking leather belt.

Each book would be 500 pages shorter if he removed all the useless filler.

[Anonymous No.3556677]

>>3548778
>Reading fantasy.

Why not just play Skyrim? You get the same tepid plot, with better graphics.

[Anonymous No.3557018]

>>3556677
you got spunk, kid
i like that

[Anonymous No.3557127]

>>3556554
that picture is wrong.

[Anonymous No.3557276]

>>3554101
>>3554117
>>3554156
>>3556433
Fuck Tolkien. Jordan stomps Tolkien. True, Tolkien's world had a linguistic and mythological depth that has never been matched, but on every other level LotR is found lacking. The lack of wild animals, the economic impossibility of it all, the absence of any relatable female characters, the nothing-happening magic system, the total lack of real world allegory, the clumsy morass of warfare, that sort of thing.

In the sub-genre of richly detailed created worlds, Robert Jordan is unsurpassed. The detail of the world, from trade and economics to what style of dresses people wear, is incredible. I would love one day for some of his notes to be released to the public. During some of his recent interviews, tantalizing tidbits about the great depth of his notes have been released. Jordan had folders of notes for characters that never even appeared in the novels.