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/lit/ - Literature

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3489871 No.3489871[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

What are the biggest sins of writing a story?

>> No.3489880

If you want to be a saint free from sins, don't write.

>> No.3489879

>>3489871

The biggest sin is following arbitrary guidelines religiously like the one you posted so that your writing is stiff and generic internet-writing like everyone else because you don't have the balls to find your own voice and style.

>> No.3489885

>>3489871
Sorry for my ignorance, but who is the author in the picture?

>> No.3489889

>>3489879
/thread

>> No.3490056

Overdetailing sexual situations

Incorporating farts into your plot/descriptions

>> No.3490084

>>3489871
>Suddenly
>Changing tenses
>Adverbs, adverbs, adverbs
>Extensive thesaurus usage
>Verbiage
>Not understanding your character motivations

>> No.3490105

those are pretty good tips, for all I know.

>> No.3490118

>>3490056
>Incorporating farts into your plot/descriptions
looks like I need to do a rewrite.

>> No.3490137

>>3489871
Wait how are you supposed to write a story without using any verbs other than "said"?

>> No.3490144
File: 82 KB, 1067x600, dollf2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3490144

>leave out the parts readers tend to skip

>> No.3490150

>>3489871
I write however the fuck I want, get wrecked

>> No.3490166 [DELETED] 

>>3490137
The dialogue alone should express whatever youre trying to convey without needing some gaudy tag to emphasize it

>> No.3490168

>>3489885
I could be wrong, but I think it's Donald Barthelme.

>>3489871
The pic in your OP is so much claptrap. So many authors break these "rules" without any detriment to their reputations. Off the top of my head, I can say Yukio Mishima has broken rules 1 -3 and 8 - 10—and his work is god-tier level. Ultimately it all depends on the genius and personal needs of the author.

Though I do agree with Rule 6.

>> No.3490171

>>3490166
maybe i want to say 'asked' or 'wondered' or 'shouted'

your rules are stupid and so is everyone itt. have fun being shit wanna-be writers all your lives

>> No.3490172

>>3490166
Dialogue is usually pretty cheesy though and should be used as sparingly as possible.

>> No.3490179

>>3490118
alright Joyce

>> No.3490185 [DELETED] 

>>3490171
Settle down there.. they aren't meant to be strict guidelines, more of suggestions. Ideally speaking you'd like to use as little dialog descriptors as possible, but thats just my opinion.

>> No.3490202

>>3489885
Is it not Elmore Leonard? It's his list of rules.

I much prefer Max Sebald's writing tips (which are too long to post here, I guess...)

>> No.3490208

>>3490185
asked
wondered
shouted
pointed out
added
exclaimed
interrupted
mumbled
noticed
whispered
there are tons of verbs who work at least just as well as 'said', and better in certain situations

>> No.3490224
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3490224

>> No.3490260

>>3490208
The only appropriate substitutes for said are sez and -

Pleb.

>> No.3490277

>>3490224
#YOLO

>> No.3490339

Elaboration on OP's pic:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/feb/20/ten-rules-for-writing-fiction-part-one

>> No.3490365

>>3490339
welp

i still dont understand what's wrong with 'suddenly'

>> No.3490369

>>3490339
>Don't go into great detail describing places and things, unless you're Margaret Atwood and can paint scenes with language. You don't want descriptions that bring the action, the flow of the story, to a standstill.

He basically says "don't do this if you can't do it well"

No shit

>> No.3490375
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3490375

"Don't do any of this!" - people who're only briefly remembered for telling other people what not to do.

>> No.3490378

>>3490365
It sounds really unprofessional. Also disrupts the flow of the scene.

>> No.3490383

>>3490378
no it doesn't?

>> No.3490391

>>3490378
"The birds were swaying and the trees were tweeting during my daily stroll through the village green, when suddenly a cage came down..."

>> No.3490406

>>3490391
the cage is supposed to disrupt the flow of the scene in this case, and it does a good job at thi

>> No.3490409

>>3490391
John walked gingerly down the dark path, brandishing the revolver at his hip. The branches in the trees above cast odd shadows on the moonlit ground. His head snapped in the direction of rustling leaves and snapping twigs. He hopped back when a blur crossed his path. When he saw the narrowed pupils of cat's eyes staring back at him, he released the tension on the trigger and eased the gun back into it's holster.

vs.

John walked gingerly down the dark path, brandishing the holster at his hip. The branches in the trees above cast odd shadows on the moonlit ground. Suddenly, a cat darted out in front of him. When the animal disappeared back into the brush, he sighed in relief and eased the gun back into it's holster.

>> No.3490415

>>3490383
Writing isn't cinema. Most circumstances that use 'suddenly' are an attempt to write a scene in real time, but a sentence like "Suddenly someone burst through the window" by nature isn't in real time, because the components of the scene aren't named in the order that they are perceived visually (if they were you'd have to resort to some awkward, grammar-free stream of consciousness style,) and the sentence isn't comprehended by the reader at the pace what it describes plays out. You're playing catch-up and losing, so to speak. Real time description ought to be approached more carefully than with anything prefixed 'suddenly.'

>> No.3490420

>>3490378
>disrupts the flow of the scene.
That's the point.

Maybe it is unproffesional. But why is that? Because it's so easy to use?

>> No.3490422

>>3490056

b-b-but mah FARTS!

>> No.3490426

>>3490409
But that's a load of bullshit. By using "suddenly," you create a clear image of what you're trying to express. It's a sudden event, and that's all there is to it. Personally, if I read something like "suddenly," I unconsciously increase the reading speed, so it does what it needs.

>> No.3490427

>>3490415
>Real time description ought to be approached more carefully than with anything prefixed 'suddenly.'
...And I'd like to add that
>>3490409
Is a good example of doing it right.

>> No.3490431

>>3490409
>When he saw the narrowed pupils of cat's eyes staring...
This has no urgency to it. It seems like he's bumbling along and just spotted a cat.

> Suddenly, a cat darted out..
This has that implied urgency and automatically grabs the reader.

>> No.3490428

>>3490427
Oh, so it's ok to use it as long as you use it right. You mean like literally everything else?

>> No.3490435

>>3490406
You could SHOW the disruption of flow by the narrator's reaction and other ways the scene changes without having to say it was sudden.

>> No.3490437

>>3490431
I'd like to quote the guy above by saying the writing isn't cinema.

>> No.3490443

>>3490435
or you could say it's sudden as it's simple, effective and it works

but you keep following the rules kids, you'll be great writers in no time

>> No.3490444

>>3490437
Great writing is

>> No.3490449

>>3490428
Pff. Reading comprehension. I said real time needs to be approached carefully. The first paragraph was an example of that, not the second. "His head snapped in the direction of rustling leaves and snapping twigs" conveys tension and surprise far better than the bland, summarising 'suddenly.'

>> No.3490452

>>3490449
no it doesn't

>> No.3490457

>>3490452
Can you give us an argument that's more than mental belly fuzz?

>> No.3490463

>>3490443
>or you could say it's sudden as it's simple, effective and it works
It is also boring. Describing the change of the scene is also effective and also works. What, you have to write like 10 extra words?

>> No.3490467

>>3490457
'suddenly' immerses me into the prose and makes me feel like i should speed up because there's action going on and in the middle of it. it's a short, simple, common word with great effect

but it's obvious we won't agree with each other. you stick to your friend's rules, and i'll go on my way

>> No.3490468

>>3490463
>It is also boring.
no it isn't

>> No.3490475

>>3490431
It lacks urgency in that it's spun out a little too long, yes. Probably could have been done in one sentence.

>This has that implied urgency and automatically grabs the reader.
If you're interested in 'what happens next' over literary style, and are eager for summaries instead of immersive scenes, then you should probably stick to TV.

>> No.3490482

Avoiding using 'suddenly' because it's "boring" it's fundamentally the opposite to always using "said" as a dialogue descriptor. The rules are inconsistent, just saying

>> No.3490484

>>3490467
Oh, a cue-in for the reader. I can see how that would be appreciated by some. I suppose you're also grateful for the existence of canned laughter?

>> No.3490485

>>3490475
>If you're interested in 'what happens next' over literary style
>if you enjoy literature differently than me, then you are enjoying it wrong

>> No.3490497

>>3490378
>unprofessional
What does that even mean? Unprofessional writing? Well excuse me, I forgot my business smart casual writing piece at home.

>> No.3490522

>>3489871
What about exclamation points in dialogue ? I use a lot of those, rather than adding "he shouted/yelled/cried, etc" in my sentences. Is that bad ?

>> No.3490527

>>3490522
yeah, that's why your book will never sell and you will never get laid

>> No.3490528

>>3489871
>leave out the parts readers tend to skip

What does this mean? Who skips parts of a book? I can understand people skimming certain parts, but never just skipping whole blocks of text.

>> No.3490543

>protagonist is a writer who's into art music
>euphemisms
>adverbs
>writer not writing about what he knows about
>gaudy, unnecessary purple prose
>excessive jargon
>adverbs
>adjectives
>changing tenses, and breaking flow
>long-winded, lengthy paragraphs filled with nonessential words, verbiage, etc
>extensively using a thesaurus
>adverbs
>self-inserts
>description of weather, characters, location, etc
>using anything other than said, asked, or replied
>adverbs

>> No.3490555

>>3490543
>literature

>> No.3490562

>>3490555
>words

>> No.3490575

What's with all the restrictions on speaking verbs?

Why is "said" (and slight variants, "asked", "replied", etc) the "only allowed" option?

Isn't it good to provide more information as to HOW a character said something?

Like if my character called another a "right dirty cunt", there's a big difference between him saying it to that character's face, screaming it in anger, and muttering it under his breath.

>> No.3490574

>>3489871
Why do people follow these lists? Is the height of your creativity to just copy some writer who is no better than a footnote?
People would do better if they wrote the opposite of what asshats like these said they should.

>> No.3490578

There is only one rule of writing I feel is absolutely true:

If you're using dialogue that begins with "As you know" to deliver exposition, you're doing it wrong.

>> No.3490577

>>3490543
>>writer not writing about what he knows about
I actually wished this happened more.

>> No.3490581

>>3490482
Suddenly is used to tell the reader to be tense, or to give a sense of speed or abruptness to the following sentence. That's pretty specific. Said, on the other hand, is a completely neutral dialogue marker. Some french novels just use a little dash in the margin to mark off new dialogue instead, with no noticeable difference - that's how 'blank' it is as a word.

>>3490527
Plebanon, you should know that your lack of punctuation and capitalisation mark your posts out as clearly as if you ended them with a signature. Their consistently vapid content doesn't help, either.

>> No.3490583

>>3490577

Why?

If an author is writing a chapter that takes place in, say, an electrical power plant, unless he has at least a basic understanding of the day-to-day ins-and-outs of a power plant's architecture, operation, staff, and functions, he can be prone to many factual errors.

It'd be as if he wrote a story taking place in Chicago and had his character pass the Empire State Building on their way to Lou Malnati's.

>> No.3490584

>>3490575
The reader should get that emotional detail from the dialogue itself and the context.

>> No.3490585

>>3490575
I don't know exactly why, but it's just crap when you read "shouted", "whispered" etc.

Actually, it's even better if you use nothing at all.

>> No.3490617

>>3490585
free indirect speech master race

>> No.3490660
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3490660

Gothic - I can't get enough of it!

>> No.3492691

>>3490168
those are definitely not rules Barthelme was into following so i doubt it

>> No.3492741

1 The sky was the color of television turned to a dead channel