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/lit/ - Literature

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3391665 No.3391665 [Reply] [Original]

Just finished White Noise by Don DeLillo.

Never seen him discussed here, only the occasional mention and would like to know what people think.

Overall, I liked it though I think it is flawed. The children were characterised well, the section on the airborne toxic event was good and the sections discussing death and the fear of it worked well.

However, I feel his criticisms of consumerism weren't as successful and didn't seem to offer much new. At times the way the characters spoke to each other was irritating: very cold and smug at times. Yet, I feel the author would say that is exactly the point.

Despite this, there were quite a lot of passages which rung true.

>> No.3391675

I just loved the dry sense of humour (which I think is at its best in the dialogue, so I disagree with you about that being a weak area) and the sense of foreboding that pervaded the text. The commentary on consumerism etc. was fairly undeveloped but it conveyed the basic message and provided a good backdrop to the more existential thematic stuff.

>> No.3391686

>>3391675

My issue with the dialogue was that at times it was as dark and inticing as you say: creating this lingering sense of dread. But at times the writing, not just the dialogue, felt like it was bashing you over the head with the idea or just being pretty obvious. That at times it lacked subtext.

>> No.3391718

>>3391686
Yeah it can be a bit heavy handed at times. Above all else, though, I consider it a very successful black comedy. The disjointed interaction between the characters and the way they would frequently talk at cross purposes was probably my favourite part of the book. I haven't actually read any other DeLillo, but I saw the movie Cosmopolis and this style of dialogue seemed present in that as well, so I guess it's a feature of his writing in general.

>> No.3391720

>>3391665
He's discussed here occasionally. I mention White Noise occasionally as I loved it and I don't know what about it you see as flawed.

>his criticisms of consumerism
unlike some of the other postmodern authors, I think DeLillo cares less about makes criticisms and more about using consumerism as a narrative device, a kind of stage setting if you will. Consider the passages in the grocery store, the aimless wandering, the spiritual emptiness. This is where the Gladney most often faces Murray (who I see as the villain) in an outright kind of rivalry. The store is to him what the dark forest was to Dante.

I actually think the role of the TV as the temple of consumerism (in the book, anyway) works very well, partly because it is much more than consumerism but also voyeurism, popular culture, and anti-intellectualism rolled in one.

>> No.3391717

I tried to read Cosmopolis but found it quite un-interesting. Last thing I remember is the main character sleeping with some female after visiting a deli or something.

>> No.3391724

Oh and it was also quite a charming portrait of family life. I did actually feel quite fond of all the characters.

>> No.3391728

>>3391665
I'm currently reading it myself. I think It's humor works well and I like some of the ideas it proposes. The thing I don't like about the dialogue so much is that it sounds like all the characters are the same person, despite the occasional character quirk, a very intelligent and loquacious white male the author. All of them are prone to spout sodeep soliloquies at the slightest provocation. That said, it's probably one of the better books I've read so far (though i havent read many)

>> No.3391729

>>3391724
The old man who shows up one morning. Such a great scene, reminded me of my parents/grandparents.

>> No.3391741

>>3391728
oh, and you have to remember op, his criticism of consumerism isn't new or original to you because he, it seems to me, is the one who started discussing it in literature. It was during the 80s when satan's appendix--Regan--planted the seeds that would turn america into the shitty soul-less consumerist culture it is today.

>> No.3391743

OP here again, I understand your points and overall I liked it. Just finding it hard to describe the issues I had with it.

Prior to it I read V by Thomas Pynchon which was dense to the point of suffocation at times - many passages were rich and moving but others I had to slog through.

In comparison, White Noise was a breath of fresh air: simpler, more spacious and clearer. Yet at times I found this left less of an impact on me.

When I dipped in to read one chapter or so it would barely register. My mind would appreciate the ideas but it would stir little inside me. Yet when I read 100 pages in a sitting the weight of the entire piece struck me and I got the sense of foreboding and ennui I imagine the author desired.

So I think the style/dialogue is at times flawed and heavy-handed yet at other times is perfect. Some characters are weak but others, such as Heinrich or Denise were fantastic.

>> No.3391773

One of the funniest books I've read, and his descriptions and imagery are top notch. Dialogue didn't bother me too much, but if that's an extremely critical facet to you, it's still worth the read.

>> No.3391789

As others said he was pretty heavy handed in expressing certain ideas, which is probably my biggest criticism.

My experience with the book was bitter sweet. I didn't actually enjoy reading it at all, but whenever I reflect on it I see the humor and whatnot more clearly. I think I just had a problem with his prose, though I can't pin down exactly why.

I did like one idea I had while meditating on the novel and I'm glad I have this opportunity to bounce it off others. I vaguely remember a description of the "new" sunsets and how it was best on cloudy days? it is a bland experience until the very end when there is an explosion of colors and whatnot. This reflects my experience with the book as a whole, very bland until the very end when he decides to commit murder. the metaphore also works to some extent with the titular "white noise" of death (clouds) but is vibrant when finally confronted. Maybe I'm just making stuff up?

>> No.3391796

It is a terrible, terrible book. The characters are talking heads spouting ridiculous dialogue at each other in order to beat you over the head with an extremely obvious theme/message.

>>3391720

> I think DeLillo cares less about makes criticisms and more about using consumerism as a narrative device, a kind of stage setting if you will

Not that what his intention is matters, but he himself has characterized the book as a satire, which would seem to imply a "message" he wants us to get. It definitely reads that way--for instance, in the famous "Toyota Celica" scene.

B.R. Meyers says it a lot better than I ever could:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/07/a-readers-manifesto/302270/ (ctrl+f Delillo)

>> No.3391813

>>3391796
Great link, thank you good sir. May the force be with you.

>> No.3391815

>>3391796
>http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/07/a-readers-manifesto/302270
yeah I read what Meyers wrote there. I still think DeLillo is aiming at satirical humor more than sodeep insight, excels at former and only just reaches the latter

also, what is up with that namefagging

>> No.3391840

>>3391815

Maybe. I'm probably being too harsh on him, since I tend to do that to writers that I just viscerally don't like. He has brought up some interesting sociological points in other works, for example the rising influence of the terrorist as a shaper of public discourse.

He's just all over the place and can't characterize or write dialogue, so everything seems to come off as one long monologue. It makes it hard to suspend disbelief.

>also, what is up with that namefagging

It's for a project.

>> No.3391850

Ken Millard approves. See you Tuesday!

>> No.3392219

There's a critic named B.R. Myers who has a brilliant takedown of Delillo's work in his book "A reader's Manifesto. He mostly focuses on what he sees as Delillo's bizarrlu unrealistic dialogue and his portentous writing style. It's a very contrarian look at his work, but all the better for how Delillo often gets so blindly venerated.

>> No.3392249

>>3391665
Hmm... I need to read DeLillo. He's sort of always been hovering on the periphery of my list.

>> No.3392282

>>3392219
>>3391815

Thanks for the read guys. Really interesting.

>> No.3392485

>>3392219
He's like Dostoyevski in that people rave more about his substance than his style. He's a prophet to a lot of people, with regards to things like media proliferation, etc.

>> No.3394041

bumping actual discussion of literature

>> No.3394059

>>3392219
I don't see how saying that it's unrealistic is a criticism. The dialogue is clearly not meant to be realistic, and many people find his dialogue one of his best features. Sounds like yet another case of someone becoming butthurt because a book turns out to not be like they imagined it would be.

>> No.3394254

>>3394059
I absolutely agree. Anyone going in for realism in dialogue is missing a big point about DeLillo's message.

First, consider the kid Heinrich. He is completely unrealistic, spouting things far beyond his age, doing totally implausible things like visiting killers in prison to play chess with them (I think he did something like that, it's been a few years since I read it). Anyway, the point is that you, as a reader, should be able to recognize the preposterous characterizations and accept it as part of this black comedy, since it is clearly intended.

>> No.3394306

Haven't read Underworld yet, but I preferred Libra to White Noise.

>> No.3394402

>>3394059
>>3394254

My issue with it is not because of how unrealistic it is, but how annoying it is at times.
Gladney: Notice how hollow the inside of a TV is?
Babette: Maybe that is why it leaves such a hollow feeling in me.
Gladney: Maybe.
Babette: Maybe.

At times it is just infuriating. Not only because it is unrealistic but because it treats the reader as being simple and lacks any subtext. The equivalent in the Great Gatsby would be
Gatsby: I guess you can't change who you are.
Nick: Then the American dream is over.
Gatsby: I guess it is.
Nick: Yes, I guess it is.

I understand how one can say that is the point and at times it works, but at other times it comes across as smug and annoying.

Heinrich's character I liked and admit he is ridiculous but there is a humour to that and a power to it which the dialogue lacks.

>> No.3394426
File: 50 KB, 400x300, don-delillo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3394426

t wasn’t just those days and nights in bed. Sex was everywhere at first, in words, phrases, half gestures, the simplest intimation of altered space. She’d put down a book or magazine and a small pause settled around them. This was sex. They’d walk down a street together and see themselves in a dusty window. A flight of stairs was sex, the way she moved close to the wall with him just behind, to touch or not, brush lightly or press tight, feeling him crowd her from below, his hand moving around her thigh, stopping her, the way he eased up and around, the way she gripped his wrist. The tilt she gave her sunglasses when she turned and looked at him or the movie on TV when the woman comes into the empty room and it doesn’t matter whether she picks up the phone or takes off her skirt as long as she’s alone and they are watching. The rented beach house was sex, entering at night after the long stiff drive, her body feeling welded at the joints, and she’d hear the soft heave of surf on the other side of the dunes, the thud and run, and this was the line of separation, the sound out there in the dark that marked an earthly pulse in the blood.

She sat thinking about this. Her mind drifted in and out of this, the early times, eight years ago, of the eventual extended grimness called their marriage. The day’s mail was in her lap. There were matters to attend to and there were events that crowded out such matters but she was looking past the lamp into the wall, where they seemed to be projected, the man and woman, bodies incomplete but bright and real.

---Don Delilo, Falling Man

>> No.3394431

>>3394254

same goes for Gladney's occupation as a Hitler Studies professor. It's clearly unrealistic but still an almost believable satire on academia

>> No.3394453

>>3394402
is that real text from White Noise or your own parody?

>> No.3394458

>>3394426
Boring shitty generic college professor 'prose'.

Gimme something with meat, not this artificially-flavored crap.

>> No.3394469

>>3391796
Don DeLillo can be heavy-handed but that link is idiotic.

>> No.3394484

>>3394254
Heinrich only played chess with the murderer via mail, fyi.

>> No.3394519

>>3394431
I thought it was moreso another facet of the death theme than a parody of academia

>> No.3394573

>>3394519
It can be both. When I picked up White Noise in a book store and read on the blurb that the protagonist was a professor of "Hitler Studies" I burst out laughing and instantly knew I had to buy the book.

>> No.3395278

Don DeLillo is comedy gold.

>> No.3395283

Can someone explain the Hitler studies thing? Why is it funny?

>> No.3395295

>>3394484
gotcha, although I could swear I remember the main character driving Heinrich to do something weird somewhere

>> No.3395711

So I enjoyed Whtie Noise, what's another good book by Delillo

>> No.3396097

>>3395283
He is exploiting the life of an evil man for study. The hilarity ensues because it really speaks volumes about the suffering of academia.

>> No.3396102

>>3396097
Forgot to put evil in quotes... Hope no one on /pol/ is online

>> No.3396735

>>3395283

Why is it funny? First of all, it was somebody making their living/ fame off of the back of another man's legacy (and what an interesting man's legacy to pick). All of this happens without the actual Hitler leaping in to the picture, the book even says that its Gladney's Hitler. Hitler as a person never emerges in the book. As an academic, wrapped up in his own prestige and in his own life and his own preoccupation with death, he has completely removed the historical significance of Hitler by creating an entire department around him. He's taken what Hitler represents and deconstructed it to the point where Hitler is now just a thing.

In the book, there is literally no difference between "Hitler studies" and "Banana Sunday Studies". It's a sort of laugh while you cry thing.

>> No.3396827

>>3394573
I didn't think that was funny at all, much less laugh out loud funny. And it actually made me postpone reading the book.