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/lit/ - Literature

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3359273 No.3359273[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Who wins, /lit/? Pick your side.

>USA - Emerson, Thoreau, Kripke, James, Dewey, Chomsky, Putnam, Dennett, Ayn Rand, Searle, Whitman, Poe, Twain, Hemingway, Dickinson, Vonnegut, Foster Wallace, McCarthy, Faulkner, Pynchon

>Greece - Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Heraclitus, Parmenides, Pythagoras, Zeno, Anaxagoras, Leucippius, Democritus, Homer, Hesiod, Sophocles, Herodotus, Euripides, Hippocrates, Aristophanes, Euclid, Archimedes, Ovid, Aesop

>Germany - Leibniz, Kant, Hegel, Fichte, Schelling, Goethe, Schiller, Schopenhauer, Stirner, Nietzsche, Marx, Frege, Husserl, Jaspers, Heidegger, Horkheimer, Adorno, Habermas, Arendt, Kafka, Hesse, Mann

>UK - Hume, Locke, Berkeley, Bacon, Ockham, Hobbes, Smith, Mill, McTaggart, Moore, Russell, Wittgenstein, Popper, Bradley, Shakespeare, Shelley, Dickens, Austen, Woolf, Huxley, Orwell

>France - Descartes, Rousseau, Pascal, Voltaire, Montaigne, Comte, Proust, Ponty, Guenon, Bergson, Derrida, Foucault, Lacan, Deleuze, Camus, Sartre, Hugo, Rimbaud, Dumas, Verne

>Russia - Gogol, Chekhov, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Turgenev, Lermontov, Bulgakov, Pushkin, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Akhmatova, Kharms, Nabokov, Pelevin, Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Lenin

>Italy - Cicero, Lucretius, Seneca, Rufus, Epictetus, Aurelius, Empiricus, Plotinus, Augustine, Aquinas, Machiavelli, Croce, Eco, Evola, Dante, Virgil

>> No.3359287

Why are some of them mostly philosophy and others almost all fiction? This isn't a very representative spread.

Also: no Japan?

>> No.3359288

>>3359287
weeaboo

it's clearly meant to represent the grand european empires, not be inclusive.

inb4butAMERICA

>> No.3359289

>>3359287
>Why are some of them mostly philosophy and others almost all fiction?

Because I'm biased.

>Also: no Japan?

Because I'm lazy. Forgot Spain as well.

>> No.3359290

Poe, nothing like alcoholism to inspire good poetry.

>> No.3359292

>No Bataille in France

>> No.3359293

>>3359287
Because /lit/ doesn't know the difference anymore. It's this kind of of constant willy wagging that clogs the board up.

>> No.3359298

1. Russia
2. France
3. Germany
4. Italy
91. Greece, because they haven't been relevant for way too long.
9001. UK
9000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001. The U.S.

Seriously though, almost all if not every of the authors listed in the American division would not be named if from another country. Jonathan Littell should be there though, even if he wrote in French. He's better than DFW, McCarthy and so on...

>> No.3359303

>no Melville in US

>> No.3359306

>>3359292

France's list is very badly done but we get the point. No Flaubert, no Dumas, no Stendhal, no Baudelaire, no Verlaine, no Prévert, yet Lacan, Deleuze, Derrida, Ponty, Guenon and Ponty.

>> No.3359310

>>3359303

yeah i thought about that too. he's about the only godtier author that ever came out of the states and he's not listed.

>> No.3359311

>>3359306
>no Dumas

nigga u blind

>> No.3359312

>>3359298

Italy has been listed as non-relevant sonce the Old Times too, yet there a lot of good authors that came out of there recenrtly. Think Alessandro Barricco, Curzio Malaparte...

>> No.3359313

>>3359311

Took a quick look, why the fuck is he at the end though, it was kind of chronological until then.

>> No.3359329

>no Joyce in UK

>> No.3359331

Fitzgerald excluded? Really?

Also, if you include poets, US has Cummings, Frost, Eliot, Kerouac, and many others. England has Keats, Byron, Wordsworth, etc.

>> No.3359350

>no african writers

I dont vote

>> No.3359353

>>3359331
no kerouac, drink pepsi

>> No.3359357

Germany by a long shot. You can't fuck with that list. Even Foucault acknowledged that the tradition of critique is German and that French philosophical thought has always been far inferior ("What is Critique?")

>> No.3359366

>>3359329
>Ireland
>part of the uk

>> No.3359367

>>3359312

Vico, Gramsci, Dante, that's all I can think of.

>> No.3359370

>>3359367

oh Agamben

>> No.3359378

Japan might be:

>Tanizaki, Mishima, Oe, Dazai, Yosano, Takuboku, Basho, Murakami, Abe, Nishida, probably many more

>> No.3359387

>>3359273
>not putting additionally Wolfgang Koeppen, Arno Schmidt, Alexander Döblin, Albert Vigoleis Thelen, Günther Grass, Alfred Andersch, Heinrich Böll, Hans Fallada to the other authors in the German selection
So schiggi er seinen Diggi.

>> No.3359388

>>3359378
You didn't even include Soseki, Kawabata or Akutagawa. Arguably more important than all the other authors you listed, but definitely more renowned.

please don't do this when you don't know much about it

>> No.3359391

>>3359388

>probably many more

>> No.3359397

>>3359273
For me the Russian literary tradition is unmatched by the rest of the world.

>> No.3359398

>>3359273
too bad ovidius was italian and epictetus was greek

>> No.3359401

>No Spanish literature
Aaaaand I'm out

>> No.3359402

>>3359391
Yes. Usually you give the most important members of the literary tradition first though. Not include them in the "etc."

>> No.3359405

>>3359402

well now they're all together, stop being a prick.

>> No.3359421

>>3359405
I'm just sick of seeing people make these "definitive" lists without actually knowing anything about what they're listing. OP, for example, then you. Learn about the subject first. Then make your lists.

>> No.3359425

>>3359273
>UK - ... Wittgenstein
Wishing it were so doesn't make it so. I'm also not getting some others like Kafka in Germany.

>> No.3359427

>>3359421

did i ever say it was definitive? fuck off

>> No.3359437

>>3359427
I think the guy was giving you the benefit of the doubt there. Now you're just saying "Yeah, I know they're dumb as fuck lists, so what?". A case of not even pretending to be retarded.

>> No.3359452

>no latin /lit/ whatsoever
Guess I'm not voting

>> No.3359454

>>3359273
>France
>12 of them are philosophers
>9 of them are philosophers from the 20th century
>No Baudelaire, no Verlaine, no Mallarmé, no Chateaubriand, no Musset, no Corneille, no Racine, no Molière, no La Fontaine, no Céline, no Lamartine, no Rabelais, no Balzac, no Flaubert, no Zola, no Perraut, no Stendhal, no Apollinaire, no Diderot, no Sade, no Lautréamon, no Maupassant... etc.

>> No.3359463

Ancient Greece GOAT. The rest could be permanently done away with as far as literature goes and I wouldn't be bothered. Second place for Germany though.

>> No.3359469

>tfw no good Australian authors

>> No.3359472

>>3359463
Your radical affirmation could almost be justified if you only talked about philosophy. If you include fiction, it's a huge nope.

>> No.3359476

>>3359472
You mean fiction like plays, for example?

There are plenty of great fiction writers from ancient and modern times from Greece.

>> No.3359478

>>3359476
Not plenty. There are only a few great fiction greek authors.

>> No.3359479

>>3359469
I was actually thinking about that today. Though I am not very versed in world literature, I don't remember I have ever came across an author of world acclaim that came from Australia.

>> No.3359480

>>3359469

>Peter Singer, Patrick White, Nick Cave (possibly), Dorothy Porter, Peter Carey (maybe), Banjo Paterson, Henry Lawson...

yeah pretty shit

>> No.3359486

>>3359437

i never said that either.

>> No.3359487

>>3359478
>only a few
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Greek_playwrights

>> No.3359488

>>3359487
I didn't say there were few greek fiction authors. I said there were few GREAT greek fiction authors.

>> No.3359491

>>3359488
>Sophocles is okay, but he's no Alan Bennett

>> No.3359495

From that list...

1. Greece
2. Russia
3. USA
4. France
5. UK
6. Italy
7. Germany lol

>> No.3359498

>>3359491
Come one. You are just trying way too hard. He said FICTION which I guess would entail prose in a novel not plays.

>> No.3359503

>>3359498
>He said FICTION which I guess would entail prose in a novel not plays.
That is either the weirdest or dumbest demarcation for "FICTION" I have heard.

>> No.3359504

Germany should stick to automobiles and genocide.

Those are the only things they can get right.

>> No.3359507

>>3359491

I am talking about QUANTITY, because quality is not comparable. Do you get it, or do you want me to repeat myself one more time ?

>> No.3359510

>>3359504
They didn't get the genocide right though.

>> No.3359512

>>3359503

fic·tion
[fik-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, especially in prose form.
2.
works of this class, as novels or short stories: detective fiction.
3.
something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.
4.
the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.
5.
an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.

>> No.3359513

>>3359507
You're talking about both quality (GREAT author) and quantity (few).

I don't see the point in continuing now, though, since you seem to literally have no idea what you're saying.

>> No.3359518

>>3359510
They literally didn't even try

>> No.3359519

>>3359512
And which one of those limits fiction to prose? inb4 you have to look up the definition of "especially".

>> No.3359525

/lit/: Someone asking a question; community complains about authors missing nobody has ever heard of.

>> No.3359527

You put Wittgenstein under the UK but you didn't put Descartes under the Netherlands?

That's double standards.

>> No.3359528

>UK
>Wittgenstein

>> No.3359530

>>3359513

Are you that stupid ?

Let me sum up the situation :

You : Greece is better than any other country as far as literature is concerned

Me : You might be right for philosophy, but not for fiction

You : hurrdurr implying there are no greek authors of fiction

Me : I didn't say that, but there are only a few great greek fiction writers

You : Hurrdurr only a few greek writers of fiction ? Here is a list of greek playwrigths.

Me : I'm talking about GREAT writers of fiction

You : hurrdurr you think sophocles is not a great writer of fiction ?

Me : I'm talking about quantity of them

You : HURR I FINALLY REALIZED HE WAS TALKING BOTH OF QUALITY AND QUANTITY, therefore you are talking non-sense

...

>> No.3359531

I think the UK list is unfair given the subjectivity in distinguishing whether this is about philosophy or literature. Obviously continental philosophy was much closer to literature in the 19th century, and has an edgy appeal many would be looking for. But it's not quite fair to compare the likes of Kafka and Nietzsche to a long list of largely 18th century empirical philosophers...

Joyce, Beckett, and Wilde deserve a mention for Ireland.

>> No.3359534

>>3359531
Yeats, Berkeley and Swift too, then.

>> No.3359537

>>3359530
>Here is a list of greek playwrigths.
Ancient Greek playwrights. Do you actually think Greece has produced no plays since around 200BC? Fucking hell, 10/10, you're retarded.

>> No.3359538

Not sure if this is supposed to be pre-war but Isaiah Berlin and JG Ballard would make my UK list.

>> No.3359540

>>3359530
>>3359537
dear god put a lid on it both of you are wrong

>> No.3359541

>>3359540
It is quite clear they are both right.

>> No.3359556

>>3359454
>>3359454
>>3359454
>>3359454


Add Boris Vian and I'm with the baguette eaters on this one.

>> No.3359558

>>3359537

We obviously are talking about Ancient Greek literature from the beggining. Do you think I would even consider talking about modern greek literature ?

>> No.3359570

>>3359558
all those centuries of wisdom, cultural omnipotence and basically giving birth to knowledge to end up selling the Parthénon on ebay because they accidentally the whole economy, jesus that is sad.

>> No.3359571

>>3359558
You actually want to argue this now as classical playwrights not being great? This is ignorance on all fronts now.

>> No.3359578

>>3359571
You are soooooo stupid. I guess at least it's clear for everyone now.

>> No.3359594

>>3359578
>You are soooooo stupid

dat argument. i think it's clear for everyone now, that no one should ever, ever take an advice from such a 13 year old plebeian with no sense of rudimentary logic whatsoever

>> No.3359647

Subjectively in this order, the most riches one will acquire; ordering the proper organizations objectively, you will lose your poverty in this listing:

1) UK

2) Greece

3) Italy

4) Germany - A necessary path to fappin' oneself till one the eyes redden with the regalness of the Haze.

5) USA - If it wasn't for Faulkner it'll be No. 7.

6) France - If it wasn't for the edginess of the last 100 years of Philosophers, it'll be No. 6.

7) Russia - What a knack to reference 'dat Theology and mostly Theology with few friending subjects.
A more appropriate list for the language you're using:

1) UK
2) USA
3) France
4) Italy
5) Germany
6) Greece
7) Russia

>> No.3359653

1. Greece
2. Russia
3. UK
4. Germany
5. Italy
6. France
7. US

>> No.3359655

>>3359653
>>Italy - Cicero, Lucretius, Seneca, Rufus, Epictetus, Aurelius, Empiricus, Plotinus, Augustine, Aquinas, Machiavelli, Croce, Eco, Evola, Dante, Virgil

Sorry, Italy should rank higher.

>> No.3359656

>>3359647
*5) . . . It'll be No. 6
6) . . . It'll be No. 5

*Because we know Quantum Mechanic aren't on your side.

>> No.3359665

>Italy
>Roman writers

This is retarded on so many levels.

Also Roman culture is utter trash anyway.

>> No.3359671

Can somebody tell me why JOHN FUCKING MILTON is not on UK?

>> No.3359679

>>3359671
because OP is retarded

>> No.3359688

>Not one Latin American

>> No.3359729

Why do people need to rank everything?
Seriously, there are tons of countries who have great literature. Why is there a need to say that English literature is better than say Russian?
While quality of literature isn't only subjective, wouldn't it be a way better discussion if we would go for a 'your favorite country in terms of literature'?
Everyone experiances books different. Sure there are works that are without a thought 'great', but somehow can tell that no one in this thread is having a completely unbiased opinion.
Just read books that you enjoy and stop power raking everything. Is this fucking high school all over again?

>> No.3359736

>>3359729
>Rakushasu

why so weeaboo?

>> No.3359741

>>3359736
Dunno, was a name I choose ages ago and I did stick to it. It is from the manga berserk I was reading at the time and I needed a new alias since my usual name was taken.

>> No.3359752

>picking popper
real

>> No.3359756

>>3359729

Come hither everyone - let us make love in the trees, as we put blinders on; we our blind - so let us enjoy our ears to the sound of music without theory.

We're saying that time ought not to be cherished in the language you might be interested in delving into, and what more than the least influential.

An axiom that I probably have to state to the Patrician(s) I'm addressing: That aside, God-tier Russian Literature is better than High-tier English Literature.

>> No.3359757

>>3359736

dont make fun of Raku! D:

>> No.3359759

>>3359752
>real
real awesome?

>> No.3359761

>>3359331
>Eliot for US
>Kerouac over anyone
Christ you're bad

>> No.3359766

OP forgot Wilde in UK.

>> No.3359770

>>3359766
Ireland =/= UK

>> No.3359773

Power ranking philosophers? You must be kidding me.

>> No.3359780

>>3359759
Nah retarded, not to take anything away from the guy but his contributions to his field are less than omitted writers such as Milton, Byron, Chaucer and Blake. However that just stems from OP merging philosophy and literature and then not even giving each country an even number of writers, do they want us to compare the entire canons of the nations or just this oddly select group of writers?

>> No.3359794

>>3359770
Yeah, but Shelley makes the list, and they're associated. So I assumed that just because he was distant (read: lol, K.) geographically doesn't mean that he wasn't an important part of their literary history.

>> No.3359796

>>3359794
Doesn't make him English though does it?

>> No.3359802

>>3359796
Not nationally, but as far as contributing to a literary culture is concerned, I thought it was probably the best place to put him.

Sorry, I guess I just have a huge hardon for Wilde. Also, disregard everything I'm saying. I suck cocks.

>> No.3359810

>Debating best countries for literature
>Not even listing Ireland

>> No.3359817
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3359817

>>3359472
I only talk about philosophy. Fiction is a nice condiment, but philosophy is crucial for the good life.

>> No.3359822

USA because of Ayn Rand.

>> No.3359823

>>3359817

False dichotomy.

>> No.3359843

>>3359823
Of course they overlap plenty, but most philosophical fiction isn't as worthwhile as the real, dense non-fiction stuff.

>> No.3360098

>>3359273
>Brits
>No Aleister Crowley
What are you doing, nigger?

http://hermetic.com/crowley/book-4/hymn.html

>> No.3360110

>USA
>Ayn Rand

There goes any chance of them being anywhere other than last place.

>> No.3360139

1. UK
2. France
3. Germany
4. Greece
5. USA
6. Italy
7. Russia

>> No.3360477

>>3359273
why is ayn rand in usa when she is clearly a russian?

>> No.3360495
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3360495

>US gets Rand but not Arendt

>Roman Empire conflated with 'Italy' even though Augustine, Plotinus, etc. were from Egypt/North Africa

Hurrrr

>> No.3360525
File: 40 KB, 437x336, 12.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3360525

I'm not sure I feel bad for OP for being destroyed after such a shitty list or terribly angry at him for trolling /lit/ so easily.