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/lit/ - Literature

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3285911 No.3285911 [Reply] [Original]

>tfw people think the line "Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n" is meant to be taken literally
>tfw people don't realize Satan is insanely miserable and just saying that to try to get support, but he really wishes he were back in Heaven

Other widely misunderstood lit quotes?

>> No.3285925

>>3285911
Do or do not: there is no try.

>> No.3285939

> implying other people wouldn't be happy in satan's place

>> No.3285942

>>3285939
God was a total dick too.

>> No.3285948

>>3285939
>>3285942
>tfw people think the line "Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n" is meant to be taken literally

It's happening!

>> No.3285956

>>3285948
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heaven of Hell, and a Hell of Heav'n.

>> No.3285964

>>3285939

But its supposed to be impossible to be happy while outside of god's presence. The points is that even a personality as domineering and proud as satan's cannot truly bear the pain of being away from god: and so he makes a reason to escape hell.

>> No.3285973

>>3285964
in which the case, the quote is meant ironically?

>> No.3285976

>>3285973

ya

>> No.3285986

>>3285964
then? againg when you throw something to the public it stop having an unique meaning and start to take whatever interpretation people give it

also, I don't like Millton shit, others people also don't and others don't ever know who the hell was that john doe

>> No.3285989

>>3285964
>impossible to be happy outside God's presence

huh?

>> No.3285991

The hilarious part is that Satan doesn't "reign in hell." He's actually just as fucked by being cast into the pit as anyone else is. It was created by God to punish the wicked, including Satan. He isn't exempt from the eternal shittiness of it.

>> No.3285996

Lucifer seems to be in a bad position. On one hand he's being miserable serving God. On the other he gets to reign over hell, but is apparently the bad guy, whilst God continues to be praised. I do think the quote is right though, it would be better to rule hell than it is to be a slave in heaven.

>> No.3285998

>>3285991
>Implying Satan's fall from heaven wasn't set to parallel the banishment of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden
Did you even read this book?

>> No.3286005

"Know thyself"

>> No.3286006

>>3285998
No, I never said I did. I wasn't talking about PL, I was talking about how the quote is misused out of context, since that's what this thread is actually about. Did you even read the OP?

>> No.3286011

>implying men can actually go to hell

>> No.3286015

>>3286006
>This quote is used out of context
>I never read Paradise Lost
Dude that quote is very relevant, in its literal interpretation, to an overarching theme of the poem, did you even read the full poem?
>No, I'm not talking about the poem, I'm talking about this quote being used out of context!

/thread

>> No.3286016

>>3285989
THIS

maybe in Milton times being happy without god precense was like unthinkable, now is more common even the concept of god mutate throught time, so that's why the quote is interpretate different from this point of time

also
>milton eat a dick

>> No.3286023

>>3286015
I mean, I wasn't talking about the quote in the context of the poem, so...whatever.

>> No.3286034

>>3286023
Well you're claiming that the quote isn't meant to be taken literally given its context within the storyline.

Or are you saying that the quote should not be considered within the context of the greater work that encompasses it?

>> No.3286038

>>3286034
Wut?

I'm saying that angsty teenage fags use it when they go through a rebellious phase, when examined literally from a Biblical stand-point, it's completely invalid because Satan doesn't reign in hell. I literally wasn't talking about Paradise Lost AT ALL.

>> No.3286042

but people think that quote represents how proud he is. which it does. how have you found an issue with this again?

>> No.3286058

>Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n

Yes, this seems like the logical order if one is to do both. Presumably you would serve in Heaven forever after this, and there you will have endless bliss. Satan was a smart man.

>> No.3286059

>>3286038
Dude, the quote is from Paradise Lost, not the Bible. Milton wrote it, not Moses or whatever. In a sense, the Satan of the Bible and the Satan of Paradise Lost can be two different characters living in two separate universes. The Bible doesn't even specify where Satan was banished to, or if he was the ruler of that realm.

>> No.3286092

>>3286059
>mfw OP even uses an original Gustav Doré engraving created for Paradise Lost in his post

>> No.3286096

>>3286059
I KNOW. GODDAMN IT.

How are you not understanding me? I was literally only talking about the quote insofar as the edgy fags who use it OUT OF CONTEXT. I was not talking about it in any other sense.

>> No.3286102

>>3286096
>he quote insofar as the edgy fags who use it OUT OF CONTEXT. I was not talking about it in any other sense.

But what you're failing to understand here is that you're the one taking it out of context, not them. I mean yes, they obviously have much to learn about if they are putting this quote in a blingee or some shit, but saying they're taking the quote out of context by intentionally placing it in another context is kind of like saying everyone's driving on the wrong side of the road except you.

>> No.3286104

>>3286059

Back before american high schools popularized the death of the author as the be all end all of literary criticism, good readers were those who spent time reflecting on a text by thinking about the symbols presented in the text. This means one concerned himself with previous usages in important cultural texts like the Bible, for example.

>> No.3286107

>>3286102
How many of them do you think have ACTUALLY read Paradise Lost man? You and I both know they heard it from some hipster faggot and then yelled it at Mommy when she tries to wake them up early for Church on Sunday. I wasn't talking about someone who uses it OUT OF CONTEXT, I.E. THE CONTEXT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

This argument is so post-modern.

>> No.3286109

>>3286102

If you've ever read the opening lines of PL, you'd know that Milton is thinking Biblically.

>> No.3286123

>>3286104
True, insofar as the characters are compatible, but how do you reconcile the differences between Goethe's Faust and Marlowe's Doctor Faustus in this light? In one, Faust is redeemed and taken to heaven; in the other, Faustus is presumably damned. Are we to say that Faust was taken to heaven "ironically", just because a preexisting text says the opposite?

>> No.3286151

>>3286109
Obviously, yes, Milton is thinking Biblically in large part, but he very obviously took liberties with the original story.

>>3286107
Obviously the situation of the hipster faggot and Satan are different in that Satan was knew of God's existence, was forever banished from Heaven, in spite of all that chose to not beg forgiveness, and was in a position to lead. A hipster faggot is just trying to be a tryhard atheist.

However, that doesn't mean Satan genuinely wished he were back in Heaven. That's where the novel's theme comes in. Satan wouldn't be happy even if God invited him back, or if he could choose where to live willy nilly. He's unhappy wherever he is, with Heaven or without.

>> No.3286155

>>3286123

Those are two different takes on an earlier tale. A simple historiographical analysis will tell you that. The same sort of analysis tells us that Milton is expanding upon the story of Satan as in the bible.

He even outright states that the purpose of his books is to justify the ways of god to men, making it quite clear that he is speaking biblically.

If we inquire further we are privy to learn that Satan's sin, that of pride was considered the worst of them all in Milton's day.

>> No.3286194

>>3286059
>The Bible doesn't even specify where Satan was banished to, or if he was the ruler of that realm.

There is no 'Satan' in the Bible. 'Satan' literally means 'adversary'. It's a generic word for bad things, not a personalized character.

>> No.3286200

>>3286155
What gives Milton the authority to "expand upon" the story of Satan? What gives him to speak on behalf of God?

Even by Milton's own belief system your justification carries little merit. The elements upon which Milton expanded happen to be the same elements we are discussing right now, i.e. Milton's feelings on his banishment from Heaven.

>> No.3286202
File: 243 KB, 1920x1080, littlenickyadrian.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3286202

"Grandpa Lucifer always said it was better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven. Well, I'm tired of serving in Hell."

>> No.3286215

>>3286200
>What gives Milton the authority to "expand upon" the story of Satan? What gives him to speak on behalf of God?

he a good writer, call it divine inspiration

>> No.3286216

>>3286215

>tfw Socrates shits on Ion

>> No.3286228

>>3286215


"OF Mans First Disobedience, and the Fruit
Of that Forbidden Tree, whose mortal tast
Brought Death into the World, and all our woe,
With loss of Eden, till one greater Man
Restore us, and regain the blissful Seat, [ 5 ]
Sing Heav'nly Muse, that on the secret top
Of Oreb, or of Sinai, didst inspire
That Shepherd, who first taught the chosen Seed,
In the Beginning how the Heav'ns and Earth
Rose out of Chaos: Or if Sion Hill [ 10 ]
Delight thee more, and Siloa's Brook that flow'd
Fast by the Oracle of God; I thence
Invoke thy aid to my adventrous Song,
That with no middle flight intends to soar
Above th' Aonian Mount, while it pursues [ 15 ]
Things unattempted yet in Prose or Rhime.
And chiefly Thou O Spirit, that dost prefer
Before all Temples th' upright heart and pure,
Instruct me, for Thou know'st; Thou from the first
Wast present, and with mighty wings outspread [ 20 ]
Dove-like satst brooding on the vast Abyss
And mad'st it pregnant: What in me is dark
Illumin, what is low raise and support;
That to the highth of this great Argument
I may assert Eternal Providence, [ 25 ]
And justifie the wayes of God to men."

>Invokes a pagan deity to inspire him to speak on behalf of the Christian God

Do you not see the irony in this?

>> No.3286236

>>3286200
lol, remember dante: dante's lucifer is better than milton's one

>> No.3286254

>>3285911
I started reading Paradise Lost today, quite the coincidence. Unfortunately I can't understand it word by word.

>tfw book I is just demons being bitter and bad losers

>> No.3286267

>>3286236

no

>>3286228

Descend from Heav'n Urania, by that name
If rightly thou art call'd, whose Voice divine
Following, above th' Olympian Hill I soare,
Above the flight of Pegasean wing.
The meaning, not the Name I call: for thou [ 5 ]
Nor of the Muses nine, nor on the top
Of old Olympus dwell'st, but Heav'nlie borne,
Before the Hills appeerd, or Fountain flow'd,
Thou with Eternal Wisdom didst converse,
Wisdom thy Sister, and with her didst play [ 10 ]
In presence of th' Almightie Father, pleas'd
With thy Celestial Song.

>uses the pagan name to refer to The Holy Spirit

>> No.3286271

>>3286254

Try this or any other heavily annotated edition.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/pl/book_1/

>> No.3286296

>>3286271
That's useful, thanks

>> No.3286318

>>3286267
>Symbolizing the Holy Spirit in terms of a pagan deity
>Not introducing the possibility of a questionable narrator

>> No.3286339

>>3286267
I remember writing a paper on how Milton represented God under the pretext of being omnipotent, and from that fact it followed that God needed no justification for his actions; the very fact of his omnipotence declares God in the right. Therefore the poem, as a justification of God's ways to men, it was one-dimensional.

I think you will have to look past the "justification of God" pretense to really get to the substance of the text, since Biblical and Miltonic interpretations of God unanimously point to the statement that God doesn't need to answer to Man in the first place.

>> No.3286340

>>3286318

id anything he's dignifying the classic greek and roman epics which called upon the muses for divine inspiration by making the muse, not of their pagan pantheon, but something above that, the spirit of God himself

>> No.3286451

>>3286340
I think you could argue that due to Milton's blindness, his references to the connection between the Holy Spirit and "Siloa's Brook that flow'd/Fast by the Oracle of God" instill doubt in his endowment as a reliable narrator.

The brook of Siloa apparently refers to John 9, which deals with the curing of a man born to blindness. Jesus tells the man to bathe in the waters of the Siloam, and by virtue of the Holy Spirit the man is healed of his blindness. Jesus uses the instance as an example to the Pharisees:

>39 Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

Surely, Milton as a person is the latter, but maybe that isn't so in the poem. One of the side-themes of the poem is Milton's blindness, and clearly this reference establishes a connection between his Muse and his condition of blindness. Is Milton really able to "see?"

I merely mean to suggest that Milton, as a reliable narrator, isn't a "given", we can probably spend days arguing about whether or not he is reliable, whether or not he is divinely inspired, whether or not he blends Classical and Biblical lore for prestige or out of ignorance.

I would argue that even if we take the Bible as a text preceding Paradise Lost, the end result tells us nothing. The snake is never said to be Satan; in fact, biblically speaking Satan is likened to the snake! As has been said previously, Satan is more abstract, simply "the enemy" in the Bible. So for that matter, Milton took liberties in making Satan concrete and synonymous with the serpent; that Milton digressed from Biblical canon is undeniable.

>> No.3286453

>>3286451
Further, it is irrelevant whether Satan is happy or not in Heaven or Hell. As has, again, already been stated, Satan is unhappy wherever he goes, as a function of his pride. By the end of the story Adam and Eve seem to find happiness and contentment in the company of each other, without living in their own "heaven", the Garden of Eden. As has, for the third time, already been said, "The mind is its own place, and in itself/Can make a Heaven of Hell, and a Hell of Heav'n."

Is OP's quote meant to be used by edgy teenagers? Obviously not. Could Satan possibly be happy in Hell but not in Heaven? That seems to be the case, if his pride didn't get in the way. Is Satan "insanely miserable"? If he is, it's all in his head. Does Satan wish he were back in Heaven? If he does, the desire isn't lasting.

I don't understand how you people have managed to obfuscate this thread into a discussion on the Muse but I guess that's just how 4chan works.