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/lit/ - Literature

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3236804 No.3236804 [Reply] [Original]

hey /lit/ first timer here

I have read the watchmen and cant find what the deeper meaning of the novel is. Can you help?

>> No.3236812

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarghh

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh

>> No.3236811

usually the deeper meanings are found at the bottom

>> No.3236814

>>3236811
thats very deep

>> No.3236829

>trying to find deeper meaning in comic books aimed at edgy teenagers trying to be deep

>> No.3236838

are you familiar with traditional superhero mythos?

consenquentialism vs deontological ethics? etc

>> No.3236839

>>3236829
like it's a decent graphic novel (which is probably more well known than it should be for reasons but w/e) but come the fuck on

"the deeper meaning of the novel" tie me up and fuckign gag me

>> No.3236842

it's just Alan Moore trying to challenge the stereotypes of the superhero genre by making 'realistic' characters.

>> No.3236844

>>3236839
i constantly tell people that books aren't encrypted fortune cookies but they just won't listen

>> No.3236847

You should situate it among the other super hero comics of the time

>> No.3236854

Intertextuality, background vs foreground, public space vs personal space, microcosmo vs macrocosmo, ethics, influence, metalanguage, etc, etc.

>>3236847
>>3236842
>>3236838
Even though it is a fact that it plays with the superhero genre, I think people are giving that too much importance today. I don't think that's what made Watchmen aclaimed as it is and other comic books tackles this as well, but Watchmen stands out. Much like Don Quixote is not just a satire of chivalry tales.

>> No.3236866

>>3236854
i think that absolutely IS what makes it as acclaimed as it is, but that might not be what makes it good.

I agree that it stands out from other things that do the superhero deconstruction thing & stands on its own much better, but that's what its main historical influence was and that's what it's known for

>> No.3236868

>>3236854
I hope a world never exists where Watchmen is ever considered on the level of Don Quixote. Just imagining Foucault's section in the Order of Things situated around Watchmen makes me shudder.

<s> and I realize that's not what you were implying </s>

>> No.3236881
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3236881

Overarching theme is the heroes' inability to live in a world that doesn't need them anymore. They especially struggle with the permanence of their actions: Ozymandias <s>asking Doctor Manhattan if he really succeeded</s>, Doctor Manhattan feeling like a puppet that can see his strings and so on. People sometimes interpret Rorschach through Ayn Rand or Nietzsche but I kind of want to interpret him as a knight of faith. This is incredibly superficial and some of the neat visual techniques (e.g. symmetry in Rorschach's sections) can't well be described in text.

and Alan Moore is a spooky man who dealt acid in high school
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SNKRo0Zalk

>> No.3236884

>>3236881
so about rorschach, what is he all about? knight of faith? what do you mean

>> No.3236886

>>3236881
Rorschach was written to be a Conservative, someone who NEVER lets go of their ideals, even if the world is against them.
What makes him a tragic figure, is that his ideals, by a bizarre twist of misfortune, are eventually in danger of preventing world peace.
That's why he says "never surrender. "Even in the face of Armageddon."
His philosophy makes sense. If we cannot always stand by our ideals, they are, in a sense, useless.

>> No.3236885

>>3236884
kierkeegard son

pick up fear and trembling.

>> No.3236887

I remember the first time I wrote a paper about Watchmen in high school too OP.

>> No.3236891

>>3236866
Maybe you're right. Then again, I'd agree it's not what makes it good.

I say the relationship between all the elements are far more impressive than any element alone. There is bunch of puns and word-image discrepancies that just make it more rich, the material at the end of each chapter features all kinds of discourses. I think the core of Watchmen is that what it is being said is never really just what they are saying.

Maybe it's just me, but I really think that the fact that they are superheroes is just a detail. It is done well like all of the rest, but it is still at the surface of the comic book.

>> No.3236931

>>3236804

I take the general theme of The Watchmen to be Plato's concept of the noble lie. In many respects it mirrors many of the ideas found in Plato's Republic. Ozymandias = Socrates (Ozymandias is the world's smartest man. Socrates is the smartest man in Athens). Both see human nature as malleable and think that only after a catastrophic event can a peaceful society can be created. They do differ in the sense that Socrates thinks the disaster would most likely be caused by natural phenomenon (floods, earthquakes, etc.), Ozymandias brings this about through his own concerted actions. The ideal republic in Plato's writings would also be based upon a manufactured creation myth whereas the lie in The Watchmen is about an alien attack. However, they are again similar in the sense that both Ozymandias and Socrates see any dissenters to the peace of the republic as needing to be eliminated or exiled (the Comedian and Rorschach).

There are a lot of other interesting ideas in The Watchmen like hero deconstruction, the idea that it is a world dominated by conservatism, Rorschach as a traditional conservative who understands human nature as violent and unchanging, Straussian neo-conservativism, and post-modernism just to name a few.

>> No.3236976

I love that its one of the few media pieces that actually cover synchronocity.

>> No.3237270

There's a deeper satire here, too, if you were a comics fan in the seventies and eighties. Because not only are the characters supposed to represent different sociopolitical viewpoints, based on percieved priviledge, liberalism, libertarianism, etc, they also are caricatures of the different types of comic fans. Anybody who went to science fiction conventions in the sixties and seventies, or went to comics conventions in the eighties has seen these same personalities and heard many of theses same argument when politics came up.. Even the lettercols in a lot of the fanzines covered it. everybody had an ozzy and a rorschahch and a comedian (it's a lot like forums were for awhile in the early twenty first). I remember hanging around at the conventions in the late eighties laughing at the same ideas. Get your hands on some APA fanzines from that period and you can have a ball picking out the paralells.

>> No.3237428

>>3236804
Just think about the charackters. The plot is just a framework for them.

>> No.3237432

not /lit/, fuck off

>>>/co/

>> No.3237437

>>3237270
It's silly that this went over a lot of people's head (much more now with the film) and the characters are treated as what they were poking fun at. People actually like Rorscharch for being edgy, Manhattan for being overpowered and etc. as if they were just like any other characters.

>> No.3237465

>>3237432
It is /lit/ you piece of garbage, who made you arbiter.

>> No.3237549

>>3237465
It's not /lit/, it's a comic book
There's already a board for discussion of comic books, go there

>> No.3237614

>>3236854
Can you explain how metalanguage features in Watchmen, please? I think I can locate all the other themes you mentioned within the text, but I'm not even 100% sure what metalanguage is tbh.

>> No.3237625

lol
how could anyone not 'get' watchmen? this thread sucks.
sage. go to /co/

>> No.3237626

>>3237614
The comic inside the comic book speak on the very reading of Watchmen. The relationship between what the guy is reading and the life surrounding him mirrors how Watchmen talks about our real life. It's not only that, but the series of analogies between story inside the story, whether these stories are newspaper articles or something a character talks about. The thing with metalanguage is that it ends up talking about the book itself, it's self-aware. It's a huge argument on how culture works, that is, that none image is seen without leaving a mark on us and thus changing our actions, from a grafitti on the wall, a comic book that is read, a rorscharch test, a superhero doll, a perfume, etc.

>> No.3237627

>>3237625
for the first time in months /lit/ is having a civil discussion about the actual content of a story, and you just can't resist saging and letting everyone know how much smarter you are. way to go, pal, you're a real winner.

>> No.3237629

>>3236804
Alan Moore is a dylan fanboy and he made references about it or something