[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 591 KB, 700x1070, 1348995541302.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3220259 No.3220259 [Reply] [Original]

Would you guys consider visual novels to be literature? I think at least some of them are right up there with the best of written stuff.

>> No.3220263

What do you consider "the best of written stuff"? Have you ever taken a class on literary criticism?

>> No.3220267

>>3220263
No, I have not, but I can read and have opinions and know when I like one thing more than another. I might not be able to apply some scholarly sounding justification after the fact for my opinions, but I don't think that changes a hell of a lot.

>> No.3220272

>>3220267
As long as you recognize that this is all your opinion.

But I still ask: what do you consider to be the best in regular literature? And why do you think it's best? Just expressing your opinions is fine, you don't have to do anything scholarly.

>> No.3220273

>>3220267
That enables you to state "I like this and not that." Being more educated about literature will help you make a convincing case that what you like is something other people should appreciate as well. Falling back on "my opinion is as valid as yours" is the weakest of arguments.

>> No.3220276

I've played a few visual novels.
It depends on what you mean by "literature"
If you go by the collective, prescribed, definition of /lit/, the answer is unequivocally that they are not, were not, and can not ever be.

>> No.3220279

>>3220276
What would that definition be?

>> No.3220283

>>3220273
sounds like what DFW wrote for his class syllabus that was posted here once. my cock, suck it.

>> No.3220286
File: 244 KB, 800x1069, 1353012233267.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3220286

>>3220283

>> No.3220288

Visual novels are wish-fulfillment, escapist, appeal to the target audience in any way possible entertainment. They don't strive to have merit. They have familiar stereotypical sexualized characters everyone can masturbate to.

>> No.3220290

>>3220279
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_canon

>> No.3220293

>>3220290
So basically anything really influential like Harry Potter or Twilight?

>> No.3220297

>>3220283
>>3220286
This pleases me. What is there to object to in that? Just that it's by Saint Wallace?

>> No.3220303

>>3220293
In what way are Harry Potter and Twilight influential?

>> No.3220306

>>3220303
Didn't libraries have to ban harry potter at one point? That's a pretty big deal as far as I know, rates it right up there with many other banned classics.

>> No.3220307

>>3220259
>I think at least some of them are right up there with the best of written stuff.

You think wrong.

>> No.3220309

>>3220303
Had an effect on the lives on every person born in Europe and North America born after 1993

>> No.3220310

>>3220306
You're not making any sense

>> No.3220311

>>3220303
Because the books are read by millions upon millions of people who then influence others who influence others.

Any popular book has an effect on the collective psyche. Very influential.

Oh wait, I forgot. The only influence you care about is that of the academic literary circlejerk.

>> No.3220322

>>3220297
it's classic wallace revealing why he is such a hated fake, because he's basically saying reading is for showing off what you read to others, and then he'll turn around and say something mildly pretentious but more intellectually defensible like 'reading is chicken soup for the soul' etc. sure, reading is just a way of showing off for some people, esp. vain fucktards like wallace, but some of us believe that reading is just pleasant, or edifying in itself, or perhaps it serves some more rarefied spiritual purpose, self-invented or conventional, which is so personal that it can't be stated.

>> No.3220327

>>3220322
>chicken soup for the soul

>implying DFW would use a cliche as horrible as that

>> No.3220328
File: 407 KB, 1024x1536, 1333744679595.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3220328

I have read muv-luv alternative and cried a lot,i dont consider it as a literature though.

>> No.3220332

>>3220322
I guess I can see that. I actually know next to nothing about DFW, but I read that syllabus as appealing to intro-level students who would have doubts about the value of the study of lit crit. Of course, there is value other than "better expressing opinions you already have", and I think some of that is implied in the "spiel" above. But perhaps you're right--maybe he was just a tool.

>> No.3220337

>>3220327
of course he would. it would be "ironic" until he started to loathe himself for his irony, and then it would be "sincere" until he started to etc.

>> No.3220352

>>3220332
>1. doubt the inherent merits of studying lit crit
>2. tell them there are superficial merits like showing off
>3. we logic now

>> No.3220365

>>3220352
>treat everyone as if they are interested in studying lit crit for external worldly gain, LIT CRIT.
>offer reasons along those lines for studying it
>being this much of a cynical retard

>> No.3220403

>>3220328
mah nigga.


on topic: Visual novels are a synthesis, I wouldn't quite call it literature. This is simply on the technical components of it.

When it comes to quality visual novels are not near any of the prominent mediums (perhaps video games, maybe even surpassing them?). The reason is that they are stuck in many cliches and tropes and there really isn't much room for development in experimental forms (even though there have been attempts). That being said I believe they definitely have potential, however the issue is that they're appealing to a market (pubertal Japanese nerds) which rarely has a positive effect on art.

I would even dare to say that they have more potential than video games since they are more linked to the traditional arts while video games explore something wholly new.

>> No.3221257

Hasn't one of the great limits of literature been the possibility that an author's message or purpose is only relevant or revealed to some of the readers?

Visual novels offer an opportunity to change the message based off of the reader. Currently this is used as a method of wish fulfillment and cliche, but I see no reason to ignore the possibilities of the medium to serve as something that expands from literature.

>> No.3221267
File: 7 KB, 184x250, 1352767723416s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3221267

>>3221257
>Hasn't one of the great limits of literature been the possibility that an author's message or purpose is only relevant or revealed to some of the readers?
>Visual novels offer an opportunity to change the message based off of the reader


there are no words

>> No.3221275

>>3221267
But there are words.

fucking tripfags.

>> No.3221288

>>3221275
who are you talking to? where's the tripfag?

also your first sentence is the most ludicrous wording of hermeneutics i have ever seen. this is why there are no words.

>> No.3221290

CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE

>> No.3221304

Rin's route in Katawa Shoujo is fantastic reading.

>> No.3221306

>>3221267
>implying that all concepts should use the same presentation to all viewers/consumers

I mean I can understand the value in the simplicity of literature and the ease of translation between thought and written language, but for comparison: we change the way we converse according to the people we talk to, why is the idea that we change the way we present our writing any different?

Also, namefag, whatever. Why are you using a name in the first place?

>>3221290
I understand that the medium is filled with vapid consumer items, but that doesn't mean we should dismiss the entire thing. I guess for people like you there won't be acceptance of the medium til there's a respectable piece utilizing it.

>> No.3221322

>>3221306
you don't even know what we're arguing about. omg.

i don't have any problem with your comic video games or whatever, your justifications for it to be literature are just pitiful, like something a fifteen year old in ap lit would come up with.

protip: you don't need to defend a medium. if you do, it's probably because you have doubts about it's artistic validity yourself.

>Why are you using a name in the first place?

wtf do i know. pay for my therapy and maybe the doctor will tell you.

>> No.3221334
File: 2.24 MB, 5000x1883, ifAatmZsfrwLo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3221334

I'm going to go ahead and post this.

>> No.3221348

>>3221322
I'm mostly just defending it because I'm interested in if there are any arguments besides just CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE and CLICHE ROMANCE.

I don't think any medium should be dismissed as not artistically valid. Especially not something like VNs which are literally writing + choices. What's the real difference between choosing which route to take in a VN and choosing which book to buy, besides that in one the author gets to define how you make that choice. I really think you just haven't thought about this before.

>your comic video games
I've played one KS route.

>> No.3221358

>>3221348
> I really think you just haven't thought about this before.

I really think you can't read what I've written.

carry on then

>> No.3221373

>>3221358
you didn't confront my points at all.

you did this:

>expressed doubt that I was capable of discussing the topic
>accused me of using arguments a 15 year old would use
>suggested that defending it in the first place showed I was wrong


It's like a how to list of how to not confront an argument while pretending to win.

Literally all you've said have been personal attacks.

>> No.3221380

>>3221348
I'm CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE guy, don't implicate him in that.

I am certainly much more dismissive of the VN genre than the guy you've been talking to.

>> No.3221395

>>3221380
I assume he would agree with your argument. To be honest I think you added more to the thread then he did.

If you care to respond, why do you think it's admissible to dismiss the whole medium just because the market is defined by pandering? Once the audience grows up I don't see why we won't see more mature productions.

I just think that interaction allows the author more control from an artistic viewpoint.(in terms of the experience of the work by the reader/user/player)

>> No.3221397

>>3221348
You can go on all you want about it's potential; it doesn't make your point any more valid. Visual novels will never have the merit of novels or lit, at least anytime soon, because they have no purpose beyond blatant pandering. Just like there's a difference between commercial and literary fiction, there's a difference between visual novels and actual novels.

>> No.3221409

>>3221373
i continue to express doubt of your capacity to argue about this topic and uphold my assertion that your arguments are 15yo-tier.

>suggested that defending it in the first place showed I was wrong

you can't fucking read if you thought that's what i said. stating that a certain medium [basically sequential art in this case] is prima facie retarded and you shouldn't even deign to reply.

also protip, don't talk about shit you have no clue about, don't say "author's message" or "the purpose of the work" if you don't want to look like a teenage AP lit tryhard. you don't know hermeneutics, so don't bring them in, they only make you look foolish.

honestly my only sin has been trying to teach you how to not to suck at arguments.

>> No.3221410

>>3221380
>CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE

What would you say when confronted with a VN such as Planetarian, which has no choices?

>> No.3221413

>>3221409
stating that a certain medium [basically sequential art in this case] is artistically invalid is* prima facie retarded

forgot my point

>> No.3221434

>>3221397
I don't deny that almost every current VN is shit. I think my point in discussing it here IS to express the possibility of the medium.

I'm arguing theoretically about its potential, which is probably why I'm not getting very far.

>there's a difference between visual novels and actual novels.

I agree I just think that difference doesn't concern the artistic value.

>> No.3221443

>>3221434
>I don't deny that almost every current VN is shit

Have you played Saya no Uta?

>> No.3221467

>>3221409
>you don't need to defend a medium. if you do, it's probably because you have doubts about it's artistic validity yourself.

apparently this doesn't mean

>defending it in the first place showed I was wrong

>stating that a certain medium [basically sequential art in this case] is artistically invalid is* prima facie retarded

Ok yeah I was wondering about that, I've just heard that kind of stuff from other people, and up until that point you had basically just acted like a rampaging tard so I wasn't sure if you were serious or not.

>you don't know hermeneutics

Was unaware that such a simple discussion required my knowledge of an entire subject. It seems to me like what we're discussing is pretty fucking basic.

>honestly my only sin has been trying to teach you how to not to suck at arguments.

This wasn't an argument it was an attempt to revitalize a thread. If other people had been responding you can trust me, I wouldn't have been talking to you.

>> No.3221478

>>3221443
No I haven't, but I was willing to concede the point to the other anon, I didn't think it was necessary to my argument that all current VNs be good.

I'll check it out though. Maybe I'll give it a run over winter break.

>> No.3221507
File: 10 KB, 480x360, green.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3221507

>>3221467
Naw, naw, you green. I’m trying to get you brown, man, but you still green

>> No.3221514

>>3221410
What makes it a visual novel? Is it not just an illustrated book on-screen?

>> No.3221517

>>3221275
>doesn't understand common expressions
>doesn't know what a tripfag is
>thinks the choice of which panty drawer you raid is the elimination of the limit of literature

Visual novels aren't literature, they're choose-your-own-adventure digital comic books.

>> No.3221538

>>3221514
>What makes it a visual novel?
>Is it not just an illustrated book on-screen?

You answered your own question.

>> No.3221539

>>3221507
>but you still green
I respect that, but only last post did you show that you were browner than me.

dawg,

>>3221517
>bad joke
>mistake
>I've confronted this already

It also isn't THE limit of literature, just a difference, I'm sure it could be seen as a strength or a weakness depending on the [insert hermeneutics term here].

>> No.3221550

>>3221434
>>3221395
I can't directly comment on the quality of prose in VNs, as I don't play them. I'll take your word for it, as the apparent proponent of VN-as-lit, that the quality generally sucks. to me, that is immaterial--literature need not be good to be literature, just as visual art or music need not be good to "be" those things. They would just be examples of bad work within their particular medium.

My dismissive contribution, if it was one, was just to draw attention to what I believe to be the similarity between VNs and CYOA books. (If they're not as similar as I think, please let me know how.) I don't agree with those here who are saying VNs are like "comic books" or other things that are clearly intended to suggest "childish", "bad", "shallow", etc. That's because I don't think CYOA is literature, either. CYOA is a game--a game played in book form. Games also are not literature. That is no indictment of their quality, current or potential--it's just that it's not what we mean by "literature". In the end, I think the coined term "visual novel" is unfortunate, because it suggests similarity to something in multiple ways, when the only real similarity is "story conveyed with lots of text".

I could blather on, but I'd like to see what VN-guy has to say about that.

>> No.3221558

>>3221550
See
>>3221410

Visual Novels /= CYOA

>> No.3221559

>>3221550
I'll add one thing--I can imagine great "art" in the form of a CYOA-style book/video game/etc. where the text was penned by Gunter Grass or someone of equivalent literary heft. I'm not sure I'd still want to call that literature. "Great fucking game," I'd say.

>> No.3221564

>>3221559
Try going on /v/ or /vg/ and calling VN's "games", I dare you.

>> No.3221569

>>3221558
See
>>3221514
Of this example, it seems to me it lacks the important feature of VNs, which is reader interaction. If it's just "they're on-screen", then it's a weaker, and I think less interesting argument.

>> No.3221571

>>3221564
>implying /v/ isn't just tsundere for KS

>> No.3221578

What is /lit/'s opinion on Umineko?

>> No.3221586

>>3221550
CYOA has a goal, you win the adventure, get the treasure, whichever it is. If you make the wrong choice then you fail. The primary difference is that VNs are not about winning vs failure, it's about the choices you make along the way determining the experience. Interaction serves not as judgement of the value of your decisions, but as judgement of what story you read.

>>3221569
Agreed, I'd rather focus on interactive VNs.

>> No.3221590
File: 41 KB, 1111x771, 1352748384508.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3221590

>>3221569
>it lacks the important feature of VNs, which is reader interaction

A lot of VN's don't have any reader interaction. It's not necessarily an important feature.

Many VN's use player interaction and choices just as a story mechanic for players to be able to view different characters and events from several different perspectives, and require you to complete all routes in order to unlock the "true" route. This "true" route would often carry less weight if you didn't know what makes certain characters tick, thus the requirement for branching routes.

An excellent example of a VN incorporating this is Little Busters. Pic related.

>> No.3221599

>>3221257
>Hasn't one of the great limits of literature been the possibility that an author's message or purpose is only relevant to some of the readers?

Really, no, and if you wanted understand literary theory beyond dismissing hermeneutics in, >>3221539, you'd know that was a silly statement.

If the difference is that interpretation is concrete, than there is no difference, because a work, anywork, can be interpreted in the same number of ways a work with a branching plot structure might.

Now I'll concede that some visual novels have some literary merit, as we've twisted 'literary' to mean 'analytical', and anything from any genre might. Movies even have 'literary' merit. Movies are not literature, though, and neither are visual novels.

Now there are likely to be ambiguities some times, but visual novels are not an explicit subset of literature.

Digression, if we define a genre by its readers and how it's analyzed, we'd be fucked to come up with any categorizations.

>> No.3221606

>>3221586
>judgement of the value of your decisions, but as judgement of what story you read

I think I worded this badly. The interaction in a CYOA has a value goal, and if you make the "wrong" decision you "lose". That isn't art because it doesn't allow for interpretation, in a good VN, interpretation is always a possibility. Even in the case of a "loss" you learn something about the characters.

>>3221590
>view different characters and events from several different perspectives

is kind of what I'm trying to get at.

>> No.3221617

>>3221586
> CYOA has a goal, you win the adventure, get the treasure, whichever it is.
I'm not sure I agree with any of that, really. I think "the journey" is important, too. As someone who read a lot of CYOA as a kid, I know that I and all my like-minded friends would re-read them over and over, trying to "experience" every story permutation available.

>>3221590
While I stand by my statement that the interactivity is important for this discussion, if nothing else to make the discussion coherent, I think that I'd want to say that:
1) VNs with no interactivity: illustrated digital literature.
2) VNs with interactivity: games.

VN-1 and VN-2 are really quite different, and I think to gloss the distinction because of their similar presentation is to miss something quite important.

>> No.3221634

>>3221606
Still disagree about the goal of CYOA, but more importantly, I think the fact that CYOA doesn't allow for (much) interpretation has to do most of all with the fact that they are written by and for retards. The quality is just shit.

I'm writing to Gunter Grass to see if I can get him to step up. While I'm at it I'll see if he'd prefer that his creation be accompanied by illustrations of moe lolis or whatever.

>> No.3221643

>>3221617
>VN-1 and VN-2 are really quite different

Play Little Busters before you say that.

It has interactivity but the different "routes" are all incorporated into the "true" story and have an in-game explanation.


The truth is that VN's are a hybrid between video games and literature. There are no distinctive "groups", or whatever you're trying to describe here.

They tend to have worse "gameplay" than video games, but they make up for that with better stories and writing; and they have worse writing than "real literature" but make up for that with neat music and visuals.

>> No.3221653

>>3221599
> beyond dismissing hermeneutics

I apologize, I wasn't attempting to come as dismissing hermeneutics, more just being a snotty ass to demiurge.

I agree vns aren't a subset of literature, I can just see the advantages of approaching them similarly from both an analytical and a creative perspective. I think great literary work could be done through the medium. It probably won't be a romance story.

>> No.3221656

>>3221643
Okay, just granting your summaries at the end: do you believe VNs are literature? Despite what you're saying, I'd have to agree with >>3221599 up there.

>> No.3221673

>>3221656
I believe that they're a hybrid between video games and literature. VN's incorporate elements of both and have some interesting advantages over both, as well as some disadvantages.

Really though this is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. VN's definitely aren't the same thing as "real literature" considering that they rely heavily on visuals and music in order to tell the story and express mood. Not that it's a bad thing that they're not "real literature"; VN's are just a completely different art form that I feel has much more potential than video games.

>> No.3221674

>>3221634
Yeah I think CYOA is just as capable of being a good medium, I just think VNs are more likely to accomplish the breakthrough due to the nature of the production and the audience in question.

>> No.3221682

>>3221673
>>3221674
All right. I probably have more in common with both of you than those that use "literature" in a laudatory sense. That sort of distinction ("VNs are not literature because they are childish comic books") is worthless in my book.

What's the VN most likely to appeal to a non-anime-watching-literary-fiction-reading American?

>> No.3221689

>visual novels

The only useful thing to come out of these threads, to my knowledge, is the conclusion that Saya no Uta is pretty damn cool. Anyone who enjoys horrors stories should get a kick out of it.

>> No.3221690
File: 134 KB, 340x340, HeHeHeHe.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3221690

>>3221634
>be accompanied by illustrations of moe lolis

>> No.3221691

>>3221674
CYOA aren't the same thing as VN's at all considering that they don't incorporate music or visual art, which are pretty important components of VN's.

Seriously a lot of VN's have some pretty great OST's, I'll continue using Little Busters as my go-to example here:

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgaNRtL6OqY
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MY8OC0O4XI
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVUekqhpt9M

>> No.3221705

>>3221682
I really liked Katawa Shoujo. It's made by westerners so you don't have to worry about translation issues. There is still a japanese vibe, but it's no too heavy.

>> No.3221732

>>3221691
damn that is pretty good.

I've mostly just been discussing any piece of writing that has a set of branching plotlines and the way in which they are read is determined by the reader's choice when presented decisions. I honestly don't know that much about visual novels, I didn't know there were some that didn't have choices.

>> No.3221734

>>3221705
>not too heavy
>its name is KATAWA SHOUJO

holy shit

>> No.3221738

>>3221705
Reading this description, I now suspect this whole thread was a prelude to the massive troll that is calling that "not too heavily japanese".

>> No.3221741

>>3221705

My sides my sides lama sabachthani?

>> No.3221744

>>3221738

These are the dudes you have wasting your time arguing with.
lel

>> No.3221749

>>3221734
When the game got released and some japanese people found out about it there was a shitstorm because the name is a really rude way to refer to a cripple. It's like calling someone a retard.

It has a japanese name, but it really doesn't have a japanese vibe. If the characters had a western look I'm willing to bet it wouldn't even faze you.

>> No.3221756
File: 112 KB, 499x480, 2q8bls7.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3221756

Umineko was surprisingly well written, I thought. There are a few VNs that are.

That being said, the medium has a lot of potential, but there's a lot of shifting through shit. Not to mention, it will always have that reputation of being nothing but hentai/dating sim/whatever shit.

>> No.3221750

>>3221749
so japanese name and japanese artwork doesn't count as a japanese vibe


suuuuuuuuuuureeeeeeeeeeeeee

>> No.3221758

>>3221750
It's the "dating sim" aspect that puts me off the most.

>> No.3221761

99.9% of them are pandering crap, but there are some visual novels that could be considered actual literature. Most notable are probably Mareni's rail-soft VNs, since they're basically written as stand alone novels in a pre-war prose style (basically imitating Souseki) and then wrapped up in a minimalistic VN format. An argument could also be made for some of Romeo's more cerebral works, though his VNs have a much heavier otaku influence than Mareni's, which would make it rather difficult for a lot of people to accept them as "real literature". Oh and I'll throw in an obligatory Oretsuba mention as well, even though I haven't read it.

>> No.3221768

>>3221758
It's more like the experience of becoming a cripple, and then learning to deal with it. First time I heard about it I dismissed it too, it's whatever, it might not be for everyone.

>> No.3221796

>>/co/

>> No.3221810

>>3221738
Apart from the anime-esque art style it doesn't really have a Japanese vibe at all.

If anything the creators should be criticized for setting it in Japan since it was pretty damn out of touch with Japanese culture.

>> No.3221817

>>3221761
>99.9% of VN's are crap

The same is true for all forms of art.

>> No.3221823

>>3221756
>There are a few VNs that are.

To be fair though most VN's are just translated by amateur fans in their spare time for fun. I'm sure they'd be much better with the ability to actually read them in their native language.

>> No.3221851

>>3221817
You forgot the 'pandering' part, it's still true.

Also it's necessary for everyone to know that genre isn't traditionally determined by a patron's (reader's, watcher's, whatever) reaction to a thing, and that something is decent doesn't make it literature. That you can analyze or criticize it doesn't make it literature, either.

>> No.3222099

No I do not, and I say this as a huge fan of VNs/eroge. I'm most likely more of a fan of them than you are. I'm guessing you're an English-only peasant who recently played Katawa Shoujo and a few other VNs and now you feel a burning desire to justify your interest in VNs by arguing that they're a serious artistic medium.

These "is X literature?" threads you guys from /v/, /a/, /co/, /vg/, or wherever create are embarrassing for both the thread-starters and the fanbases they represent. I am embarrassed by this thread, especially since the people arguing in favor of VNs as literature seem to have a low-level understanding of the medium they're advocating for.

>>3221550
>In the end, I think the coined term "visual novel" is unfortunate, because it suggests similarity to something in multiple ways, when the only real similarity is "story conveyed with lots of text".
It's impressive that someone who doesn't even play VNs gets this when most Western VN fans don't. VNs are not novels, they usually aren't even called "visual novels" by the Japanese (you know, the people who actually create them). They're called adventure games. It really is unfortunate that Westerners have adopted "visual novel" as the term for eroge/galge, since it overstates the similarities between the medium and normal novels.

>> No.3223556
File: 295 KB, 200x150, internet fight.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3223556

>>3222099
Interesting addition to this discussion, thanks. Don't be embarrassed, though--we may not be breaking new ground here, but this thread has mostly stayed away from the spittle-flecked invective of most game/lit/art threads, and its problems are mostly due to poorly defined terms and (as you point out) lack of deep familiarity with some of the subject matter. The (for 4chan) civil tone has made following it worthwhile to me.

> Oh good, I'm talking about the thread, within the thread.

> They're called adventure games.
What's the Japanese term(s) for this? Is there a difference in terminology between those games which are interactive (have plot-determinative choice) and those which are not?

>> No.3223794

>>3220322
I don't see any of that in his syllabus
I believe that you are projecting