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/lit/ - Literature

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3130496 No.3130496[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

>At party
>Gril says free will doesn't exist
>Next goes onto to say "What is art"

Dat paradox

>> No.3130502

What paradox?

>> No.3130504

>>3130502
In order to discuss what art is and isn't, you need to have free will

>> No.3130512

>>3130504
no you don't
and i believe in free will

>> No.3130518
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3130518

>>3130504

>> No.3130533

Everyone has a free will to do as they are told

>> No.3130537
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3130537

>>3130512
>and i believe in free will

>> No.3130538

Free will is such a ridiculous concept. Far more ridiculous than God.

>> No.3130541

>>3130496
>i want to sail
>buy a yacht
>sail

>free will doesn't exist

>> No.3130543

the human brain is a magical independent entity separate from the rest of the universe

>> No.3130546

>>3130538
Did you decide for yourself to have that opinion?

>> No.3130550

My good deed of the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

btw, I could choose not to do it ;)

>> No.3130553

>>3130546

It felt like I did but it's quite clear that in fact I did not.

>> No.3130554

>>3130550

Determinism/indeterminism doesn't even have to enter the discussion, free will is just as silly in both worlds.

>> No.3130559

Why is a grill talking about free will and art? Was it propane or charcoal? What was being grilled on it at the time?

>> No.3130560

We do want we want provided the amount of variables presented to us.

>> No.3130567

what paradox you twat

>> No.3130569

Whenever someone tries to bring up the idea that everything is predetermined, which is the assumption behind having no free will, I tell them that they are no longer allowed to look before crossing a street. If they're meant to die at that particular moment they will, if they choose not to cross or check anyways then they have free will.

What is art is definitely not paradoxical; there are many apt definitions for it. But the question of "what constitutes art" is a different question, with an answer that is completely opinionated.

Sounds like this girl is trying to be 2cool, is a hipster, or is generally just a dumb bitch.

>> No.3130570

>>3130541
>the jews told you to get a boat in the first place
>there

>> No.3130577

>>3130569
>Whenever someone brings up one of the great philosophical issues, I say something completely retarded
You definitely belong on /lit/

>> No.3130583

>>3130570
>being this ignorant
>2012

why the jews are a part of my spontaneous idea again?

>> No.3130591

>>3130570
>being this ignorant
>2012

why the jews are a part of my spontaneous free will again?

>> No.3130588

>>3130569

>which is the assumption behind having no free will

No necessarily. The world could be random too and the notion of free will would be equally dumb.

>I tell them that they are no longer allowed to look before crossing a street. If they're meant to die at that particular moment they will

It seems you don't understand what people mean when they say "predetermined".

>if they choose not to cross or check anyways then they have free will.

Or they were predetermined to look for any danger.

You have fundamentally misunderstood the problem of free will, please stop posting so we won't waste anymore time. Stick to lurking.

>> No.3130598

>ITT people who have no knowledge of neuroscience discussing free will

>> No.3130593

I must just understand the argument against free will.
I can buy some candy, and I can eat it.
I can not buy the candy, and not eat it.
I can buy the candy and not eat it, though it is tempting.
I can steal the candy and shove it up my ass.

In every case I make the decision. Is the argument against free will saying that I am secretly not making the decision? If so, how does one figure that-- I'll bet God's divine plan is involved in that argument, surely?

If we are talking of biology determining my actions, then I also say that this is bunk, because it only influences my decision, and does not control me 100%.
Even with a weapon to my head, I can still choose to do something even if the consequences are not favorable to me, so how am I without free will?

>> No.3130596

>>3130567
Art is created by human beings, and if human beings doesn't have free will, well then all art is predetermined.

>> No.3130601

>>3130588
Perhaps he is predetermined not to lurk.

>> No.3130610

>>3130593

>Is the argument against free will saying that I am secretly not making the decision?

Where do you think your thoughts come from? Where do you think your decisions come from? They come from the brain. What is the brain made of? Particles. What governs those particles? The laws of physics. The same laws that shape solar systems and glaciers and rocks. At which point, from where and how does this magical free will enter to govern the particles in your brain exactly?

>> No.3130615
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3130615

>>3130601

>> No.3130614

>>3130610
If anything that could vaguely resemble a will of any kind is involved, indeterministic free will is a proven fact.

Christians: 1
Atheists: 0

>> No.3130618

>>3130598
shhh baby boy, grown ups are talking now.

but i heard >>>/sci/ is just the place for you, sport

>> No.3130627

>>3130618

>living in a fantasy world where magic exists
>grown up

Pick one.

>> No.3130622

Everything, including neurons in the brain, is physically deterministic from the Big Bang.

That doesn't mean that we don't have free will, though.

>> No.3130628

>>3130601
He's still determined to be a retard though and I'm still determined to call him one.

>> No.3130630

>>3130610
And from whence do these natural processes come? Because if we risk to say that they come from prior causes, so must everything which is determined before us, and everything before that, ad infinitum. Therefore, there was either indeterministic creation (particles or demiurge or whatever) or we aren't causally determined in the first instance

>> No.3130636
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3130636

>>3130622
>Everything, including neurons in the brain, is physically deterministic from the Big Bang.

>> No.3130631

>>3130627
Math is hard, therefore science has nothing to tell us about the mind and vague, unsupported guesses are the Truth.

CHECKMATE

>> No.3130638

>>3130630
>Therefore
This is where you went wrong fyi

>> No.3130646

>>3130630

>And from whence do these natural processes come?

Don't know.

>> No.3130661

okay guys.

any recommendations for someone who as almost read no philosophy but is interested in the question of free will? any good introduction or beginners guide? preferably one relatively new one that includes scientific stuff. asked it a while ago on here and nobody came up with anything good, which was strange, because you seem to discuss it at least once every two weeks or so.

>> No.3130669

>>3130661

It seems to me whether you believe in free will or not can be derived from your ontological beliefs so if you're not looking to change those I'm not sure what there is to learn about the subject.

>> No.3130673

>>3130661
>new one that includes scientific stuff.
die.

>> No.3130695
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3130695

>>3130596
>doesn't believe in free will
>still anthropocentric
o wow
One sense of art is "the perfection of the medium" (e.g. poetry is condensed language, visual art is condensed representation &c) so you could argue that a particularly beautiful part of nature is as artistic as a painting. You can even abstract it to some form of efficiency if you want to remove humans entirely.

I guess you might like I Am a Strange Loop if you want "science"

>> No.3130703

>>3130673
>wants to get educated about a difficult subject matter
>asks for help
>gets told to die

/lit/ in a nutshell

>> No.3130724

>>3130596

That still reveals no paradox whatsoever in regards to her question.

>>3130661
Pick up 'free will and luck' or 'motivation and agency' by alfred mele. they are moderately accessible for beginners and quite far reaching in scope

>> No.3130743

>>3130724
>Pick up 'free will and luck' or 'motivation and agency' by alfred mele
these books are unrated on amazon

why

>> No.3130778

>>3130743

>amazon ratings
killyourselfkillyourselfkillyourselfkillyourselfkillyourself

i don't know why, probably because he hasn't become part of "pop philosophy" yet

he is one of the most important contemporary names on the subject and those books contain analysis of key scientific experiments (such as benjamin libet's). mele recently got a multimillion dollar grant to research free will together with a group of neuroscientists.

but i guess if you need amazon's approval before buying a book, pick up something by dennet

>> No.3130800

>>3130703
That guy was part of the Hipster Continentalfag Philosophy 101 brigade. Hates the idea of rigorously investigating philosophical issues because it's too hard for them and doesn't want anyone else to do it either. They're best ignored.

>> No.3130849

free will? more like gay will am i rite gaiz

rite gaiz?

...gaiz?

>> No.3130867

>>3130849
my sides have losted it WOW!!

>> No.3130877
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3130877

A belief in no free will does not have to stem from determinism. Genetic predisposition and environmental influences are the only things which we have to base our decisions upon. In that sense, we have no 'free will'. We still make choices, yet if we were to look back on our lives the way they turned out is the only way they could have, they aren't predetermined but we are essentially extremely complex causal puppets. Sam Harris' 80 page extended essay is worth a read.

>> No.3130879

if free will doesnt exist then there shouldnt be any laws because if i cannot control my own actions then i am not responsible for them

>> No.3130883

>>3130879
It's not about whether you're responsible, it's whether you're harming society or not

If you murder people, you might murder more people, so you are put in prison

>> No.3130880
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3130880

>>3130877
>Sam Harris

move along, nothing to see here.

>> No.3130885

>>3130879
Why? They're still your actions wether or not you have control of them.

>> No.3130887

>>3130879
You are socially responsible, we can't have you going around assaulting other people.

>> No.3130889

>>3130885
*Their

>> No.3130892

>>3130889
pls go

>> No.3130896

>>3130877
>causal puppets

>>3130883
I think we should remove everyone's amygdalas at birth so they no longer feel fear or the need to harm others.

>> No.3130901

>>3130892
What's yr problem breh?

>> No.3130907

>>3130901

no really get the fuck out

>> No.3130909

>>3130885
>wether

>> No.3130915

>>3130907

>navysealcopypasta.jpg

>> No.3130923

>>3130885
>>3130889

>they're
>their*

Leev nao pls.

>> No.3130925

>>3130496
4CHAN TRAINED ME FOR THIS DAY!!!

>> No.3130927
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3130927

>>3130907
>Stan
blablabla ... bovine flaccidity ... blablabla fuck you.. bla.. I'm an apex human .. .. bla .. bovine flaccidity.. blablabla ... faggot...

>> No.3130930

>>3130778
>book version is $50
>kindle edition is $10
>tracker only has pdf

wat do

>> No.3130932
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3130932

>>3130923
I'm confused, what exactly was wrong with correcting myself?

>> No.3130939

>>3130927

elel that's "placidity" you dumb bitch

bovine flaccidity makes no sense

>> No.3130947

>>3130939
>bovine flaccidity makes no sense
Stan - pretending he doesn't lube up and make midnight excursion to the local bull field.

>> No.3130954

>>3130947

oh trust me babygirl, U DONT NEED NO LUBE

>>3130930
idk

>>3130932
u serious?
p
l
s
l
e
a
v
e
..pls

>> No.3130959

>>3130932

You had it right the first time jackass.

>Cant into their and they're
>Still not leaving

>> No.3130966

>>3130959
What the fuck are you talking about?

They're would be referring to a person, i was referring to the actions of a person and thus the possessive 'their'.

>> No.3130968

>>3130559
Probably the OP 'cause he just got burned

>> No.3130971

>>3130966
THEY ARE still your actions.

Idiot.

>> No.3130991

Listen, I'm not saying you're wrong but how is 'their' incorrect if it's still a possessive?

>> No.3130994

>>3130543
While I see your point, it is worth pointing out that there is a lot of machinery in place to separate the human brain from the rest of the universe. Skull, spinal cord, etc. allow for events that happened long ago to affect behavior today. Not "free will", but also not quite high school physics, either. The system is complex.

>> No.3131058

>>3130778

Since when did Dennet become "pop philosophy"?

>> No.3131062

>>3131058
Since he starting chilling with Dawkins and Sam Harris.

>> No.3131074
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3131074

>>3130577
>free will
>"great philosophical issue"

>> No.3131096

>>3130504
10/10
you're hilarious.

>> No.3131144

Everyone and everything has been predetermined since the beginning of time. It's all following some big equation, and everything that happens is the result of a near infinite amount of minor scientific factors.
The knowledge of this however, may cause you to act differently than if you had not known it. You knowing it, however, was also predetermined. Thus, when you give someone a hypothetical theory of crossing the road, telling them that their death was predetermined, their response to the question (of whether they cross the road) has also be determined. It all comes down to science, friends.

Doubling back a little bit - the knowledge and awareness of this isn't particularly useful, because although you know it has been predetermined doesn't tell you what has been predetermined or how it will happen - so in essence, you still need to 'make a choice' for every given situation, but your choice is a result of your thinking process, which is a result of the chemical make up of your brain ( as is any awareness of predetermination).

I find an analogous situation in when people try to justify that emotion isn't real, as it is a result of chemical balances. This is true, but the direction of your thoughts affect your chemical balance as much as your chemical balance affect your thought. Thus, the awareness and labeling of emotions as such causes a certain desensitization and eventual loss of purpose (which often time causes depression).
I suppose I'm digressing a little bit too much, but it is also an interesting topic.

>> No.3131153

>>3131144
>the direction of your thoughts affect your chemical balance as much as your chemical balance affect your thought

what's the difference between the physical processes and the thought

>> No.3131179

>>3131153
Simply awareness.
For example, depression is often time a result of a lack of serotonin in the brain. When you're depressed, you'll be 'aware' of your depression, and may think depressing thoughts, which in turn may make your more depressed (cognizance can in fact signal the brain to monitor reuptake or various neurotransmitters).
In this situation you have a strictly chemical imbalance leading to a trend (that is, perhaps a genetic disposition leading to depression); conversely, you may be a completely normal person, neither particularly happy nor sad, and you hear your mother has just died in a car crash. The awareness of the car crash may cause sad feelings (perhaps leading to depression) which, ultimately, is an external event having an influence on an intrinsic value, with no direct chemical correlation between the two (direct being key word).

I'm only differentiating between the chemical reactions and the awareness of chemical reactions (which, admittedly, is somewhat moot, as the awareness is also a chemical reaction).

>> No.3131180
File: 422 KB, 588x819, 2010-02-24-determinism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3131180

I recommend oxfords contemporary introduction to free will published by oxford university if you want to get an over view of it i got it through a torrent im sure you can as well

pic related

>> No.3131187

>>3131180
wow that was redundant being hung over sucks i forget how to put the books into images but if someone reminds me how we used to do that all the time back in the day unless it got banned in that case never mind

>> No.3131222

>>3131179
>For example, depression is often time a result of a lack of serotonin in the brain.
No, lack of serotonin in the brain is a sign of depression. You've confused cause and effect.

>> No.3131225

>>3130504
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

>> No.3131230

>>3131222
let me rephrase, a lack of serotonin (among many other variables) may cause depression. But essentially what I'm saying is the cause and effect go both ways

>> No.3131238

>>3131230
>a lack of serotonin (among many other variables) may cause depression
Again, no it doesn't. A host of environmental factors can be the cause of depression, including illness, serotonin levels rise or fall in response to this.
>But essentially what I'm saying is the cause and effect go both ways
Not in this case.

>> No.3131250

Here you Go OP : http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox

>> No.3131253

>ITT: people are STILL conflating the brain with the mind
>ITT: /lit/ revealed as pseudo-intellectuals

>> No.3131295

>>3131238
eh, I realize I'm talking circles around myself and seeming to contradict my earlier posts - but the point I was trying to make is that when you label emotions (potentially depression) as simply a combination of chemical reactions, it may result in a desensitization and loss of purpose (which may further cause depression). As such, it somewhat may indirectly cause depression (or the labeling of it, anyways).

Thanks for the feedback

>> No.3131505

>>3130504
what if someone forces you to talk about art

>> No.3131508

>>3131253

>im a huge faggot with nothing to offer

>> No.3131551

>>3130496
You're telling me that there are girls at parties that talk about philosophy where you live? I hate going to a rural high school. Were they qt3.14s?
>inb4 underage b&

>> No.3131553

>>3131551
you should probably not post on 4chan my man

like, actually and honestly

>> No.3131560

>>3131553
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if I've wasted a significant amount of time on here. I've neglected reading, playing guitar, etc. in exchange for browsing /mu/ and occasionally /lit/.

>> No.3131610

>>3131253
>"people are STILL conflating the brain with the mind"
>call people pseudo-intellectuals

Would anyone like a glass of contradiction? I have several bottles full.

>> No.3131620

>Quantum Mechanics
>Anything being determined ever

>> No.3131787

How can some of you even talk about free will when you don't even know what determinism is.
This is rhetorical question, because you can't.