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/lit/ - Literature

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3128469 No.3128469 [Reply] [Original]

/r/ pic comparing G.R.R. Martin and another writer (whose name I can't remember) and demonstrating why his work is bad.

ITT: why Martin is a bad novelist

>> No.3128474

It's F. Scott Fitzgerald.

And please, no.

>> No.3128479
File: 153 KB, 1000x1250, good writing.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3128479

this what you're looking for?

>> No.3128491
File: 226 KB, 900x900, YiaJR.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3128491

>>3128469

Honestly, bad novelists don't get published, and further yet, they don't get optioned by HBO for a series. If GRRM isn't your preferred brand, don't buy it. ...I feel like this applies to 99% of /lit/ posts

>> No.3128495

>>3128491

E.L. James is a good novelist?

>> No.3128497

>>3128479
We've been here before, you can cherry pick the best and worst paragraphs in any novel and make this argument.

>> No.3128498

>>3128491

Yes, they do

>> No.3128501

>>3128495
Based on his comment, he's saying he's not a bad novelist. That encompasses a large spectrum of quality.

>> No.3128503

>>3128495

I think the word "effective" applies more than the word "good". Whatever it is, she has something that made over 60 million people buy the fucking thing.

>> No.3128505

>>3128501

>he's

>> No.3128506
File: 481 KB, 3616x986, told.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3128506

also related

>> No.3128507

>>3128498
What bad novel has been optioned for HBO?

>> No.3128509

I enjoy his writing. ASOIAF is genuinely entertaining.
>You're wrong for enjoying his books

Yeah ok.

>> No.3128511

>>3128507
He could make the case that it's a Game of Thrones.

>> No.3128513

>>3128507

Swamplandia's coming up.

>appeals to authority

>> No.3128519

>>3128507

You've never heard of True Blood?

>> No.3128522

Martin is not great, but neither is he bad.
Furthermore quality is to some extent subjective. (This is not the place to discuss what constitutes "Quality", though on a related note I recommend reading Zen and the Art of motorcycle maintenance)

>> No.3128531

>>3128506

All that told.
The comments to that review are also gold.

>> No.3128533

>>3128506

I agree, for the most part, with what this guy's saying. But he writes like an angry 14 year old

>> No.3128550

>>3128509
If a book, meant to entertain, is entertaining and beloved by millions, is it not then a good book?

>> No.3128561

>>3128550
To those millions? Yes.

Also I don't see how your post relates to the one it's replying to.

>> No.3128564

>>3128550

Good at being entertaining.

Twilight's certainly good at said.

>> No.3128568

>>3128550
Is "I'm a Celebrity Big Brother's Got Talent Factor" a good tv show?

>> No.3128598
File: 134 KB, 900x1184, 1299271570435.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3128598

>> No.3128599

>>3128522
I think he is great, just not as a prose writer. There's nothing particularly satisfying or impressive about Martin's 'language' as such, although he's still very good at literal descriptions and plot progression, not to mention he's terrific at dialogue.

I agree with you about quality being to some extent subjective. Asoiaf, contrary to 99% of /lit/'s opinion, is quality literature; it's just that that quality isn't found in the prose. There's not much 'literary' quality, is what I'm trying to say. What makes the series good is to be found within the story, instead of being obvious in the writing. Martin's statements on the nature of history or human society, for example. I guess he's not meant to be a remarkable prose writer, since that's not where the strengths of the series lie. It's just mind boggling how this board completely ignores those strengths and just circlejerks itself about how bad Martin's writing is. I know most of it is probably trolling, but still.

>> No.3128602

Bad novelist != bad writer

>> No.3128603

>>3128599

Have you ever read any of his short stories? His prose is much better in them.

>> No.3128613
File: 1.23 MB, 250x170, you right now.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3128613

>muh prose

>> No.3128626

>>3128603
Oh really? That's a shame then. Still, the bottom line is that ASOIAF is one of those works you don't read for the prose first and foremost. I can hardly imagine Martin being able to covey his ideas in the kind of writing style this board always expects. It does annoy me though that he can apparently write better.

>> No.3128628

>>3128599
>not to mention he's terrific at dialogue.

darn tootin'

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.
“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.
“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”
“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.
Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

>> No.3128639

>>3128613
lol who are you responding to?

>> No.3128641

>>3128626

Pretty sure he writes the way he does in ASOIAF because it suits the setting perfectly.

>> No.3128642

>>3128628

Oh God...

>> No.3128660

>>3128628
This one is getting worse than the pic op requested. Goddamn it /lit/, I thought you were better than this.

>> No.3128659

If you can't demonstrate for yourself why he's a poor writer then you don't really have the right to lord over somebody with the fact. It's not as though your critical faculties are any better than whatever fan of the books you're intending to prove wrong in their taste using it.

At least, that's what I'm assuming you'll use it for?

>> No.3128661
File: 41 KB, 736x1024, Prepare your anus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3128661

>>3128598

>> No.3128665
File: 9 KB, 160x260, flesh circus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3128665

can someone do one of these for Lilith Saintcrow? Might stop some of the shitposting about her that's been prevelan lately

>> No.3128671

>>3128507
American Gods

>> No.3128680

>>3128671
Oh son, I really do hope you trolling right there.

>> No.3128695

>>3128680

/lit/ really seems to hate Neil Gaiman.
I don't really understand it either.

>> No.3128699

>>3128695
it's mostly because he's not that good at writing

secondarily because he's very popular with nerds

>> No.3128710

>>3128641
I've always been pretty convinced of this, actually. Like I said, the series wouldn't have been half as effective had their been a shift of emphasis to the language. It would have been just too weird.

>> No.3128733

>>3128710

I never get the "its supposed to be shit on purpose" argument.
You remind me of the people who say "Meg White is perfect for the White Stripes because her playing is so simple" as if no one else could be a shitty drummer.

>> No.3128744

>>3128506
Damn this reviewer got it wrong in so many ways. Was this written by a /lit/ poster? There are all the classic catchphrases and generalizations and plain mistakes that this board always throws around when discussing GRRM. I don't understand how books so simply written can go over the heads of so many people.

>> No.3128762

>>3128733
Well that's a dumb comparison since playing simple and raw drums in a certain style isn't equal to shitty drums.
but I a agree with your first sentence.

>> No.3128772

>>3128762

But Meg White is a shitty drummer.

>> No.3128780

>>3128772

I don't agree with you.

>> No.3128921

>>3128568
In terms of what?

>> No.3128924

>>3128921

That is the EXACT right question, and the answer.

>> No.3128939

>>3128762

The drummer from Revenge plays raw and simple, but Meg White just sucks.

>> No.3128948

>>3128939

I don't agree with you. She is a talented and capable musician.

>> No.3128960
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3128960

>>3128469
All of these hateful threads... jesus. You cant just call someone a bad novelist. Thats like saying someone is a bad artist. Art, and writing (less so) is inherently abstract. And I really enjoyed asoiaf. I enjoyed the plot, i enjoyed the characters and their struggles, i enjoyed the dialogue and the prose. If you didnt thats fine, No one cares.

>> No.3128985

>>3128744
>>3128744
Pretty much.

I don't think he completely removed the morals and left only the low. What about plenty of heroic characters always doing the right thing and facing the consequences? What about the Dunk & Egg tales? What about the world they live in? Is it a place where such 'highs' would do any good? I don't think so.

Then he mentions Chekov and Peake's characterization, and just seems to forget the difference of size of the casts. ASOIAF has like a hundred, some more detailed than others. With some, he delves into the little lives of them, but not for too long because it would drag the story on and on. Some are only spectators, not much of them is brought on scene, yet they serve their purpose well, or at least I'm content with the narrow scope in which they say things, think and do stuff and what they bring to the wide picture.

Then he mentions deaths, he seems to forget that the death of a character is a powerful enough event to successfully end a story arc. And how a few story arcs ended without a death, or were just part of a larger arc. Is it convenient? Probably. Is that wrong? It depends how the whole plot line resolves.
Does he think all the open or pending arcs will be left as mysteries? Surely not, because he'd be pretty fucking wrong.

If you were describing an epic, one without an end on sight, sure, you could argue the same. What's with people and on-going novels? Can't they tell some things are slowly building and piling toward a (hopefully) a great ending?

I agree on the sex. And I don't care if he's original or not. I don't read much fantasy, and this series is pretty entertaining, even if it can be cataloged as a melodrama.
What about the lore? What about dialogues?

Blah, a few valid points, but a few empty phrases and things I just don't agree with.

>> No.3128995

>>3128960
>inherently abstract
No, it can be abstract, if the author chooses to make it so.
But what exactly is abstract about ASOIAF?
What is it that's going right over the head of so many well-read, well-educated people on /lit/ and elsewhere?