Just finished this and fucking loved it. So glad to have found a badass author when it comes to politics. What should I read next by him? That was my first.

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Anonymous Thu Oct 25 11:07:00 2012 No.3087565 [DELETED]

Just finished this and fucking loved it. So glad to have found a badass author when it comes to politics.

What should I read next by him? That was my first.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 11:22:47 2012 No.3087615 Anyone? Doesn't have to be Heinlein, you can recommend other sci-fi war novels, bonus plus if aliens are in it. >already read The Forever War, loved it

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 11:24:50 2012 No.3087619 Stranger In A Strange Land, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, I Will Fear No Evil Hard to go wrong with Heinlein. Cat Who Walks Through Wall is my favorite so far.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 11:27:54 2012 No.3087627 >>3087619 >cat Pitch it to me!

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 11:29:43 2012 No.3087630 File: 47 KB, 301x500, bill.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 11:44:59 2012 No.3087653 >>3087630 >two left hands HERO!

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:38:57 2012 No.3087743 >>3087653 Two right hands, actually.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:49:20 2012 No.3087763 File: 30 KB, 264x334, 1351126317316.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Hey guize...what would the starship troopers movie be like if it actually 100% followed the novel to a T ??

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:49:20 2012 No.3087764 Asimov and Clarke

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:50:09 2012 No.3087766 >>3087763 A movie of continuous rolling text of the book?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:50:09 2012 No.3087767 >>3087763 It would be so fucking awesome I'd cry. Just a little less army drama than in the book and some more action/in battle drama and it'd be epic and politically relevant to our day.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:51:40 2012 No.3087769 >>3087767 Never read the book. How does it differ from the movie??

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:52:10 2012 No.3087771 >>3087763 You have to evaluate things on their own merits. Films aren't books so it's useless to judge it by similarity.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:52:56 2012 No.3087772 >>3087771 Yeah that's why I'm asking. Never read the book. >is it autism?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:53:27 2012 No.3087775 File: 591 KB, 700x1070, 1350689352674.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Good. Now read Muv-Luv.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:53:58 2012 No.3087777 >>3087769 For one, it's fucking serious. For two, it's not retarded. Forget the movie, it's almost unrelated. It was the first military sci-fi that people who had actually served could read without laughing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:54:28 2012 No.3087779 Heinlein was a political crank manipulated by his wife. Asimov was smarter.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:55:30 2012 No.3087781 >>3087771 Correct, but it was still not the movie it could have been, had it been more faithful to the book, in movie format.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:55:30 2012 No.3087782 >>3087772 >implying the question and picture combination was neutral

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:56:17 2012 No.3087783 >>3087779 >Heinlein had political opinions I disagree with because I'm a soft hippie. Asimov has opinions closer to my own. Translated.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:56:32 2012 No.3087784 >>3087781 Well we'll just never know that so why are you suggesting it?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 12:56:48 2012 No.3087785 >>3087782 Ok now I am completely convinced you have autism

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 13:00:26 2012 No.3087793 >>3087783 I do agree with Heinlein's politics up until that mid point in his life, the point quite a few artists hit when they get older, tired and wealthier. It's the same story as with TS Eliot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 13:01:12 2012 No.3087795 >>3087785 > autism >>>/tv/ has the vocabulary more appropriate for you.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 13:04:48 2012 No.3087801 >>3087783 >he thinks politics is subjective and not made up of facts.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 13:06:20 2012 No.3087804 >So glad to have found a badass author when it comes to politics. I wouldn't put it that way. One part that really sticks out in my memory is the protagonist seated in a class room being lectured, at length, about the wonders of fascism.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 13:06:36 2012 No.3087805 >>3087801 wut. what 'facts' make up politics?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 13:58:33 2012 No.3087904 File: 44 KB, 325x500, strangerinastrangelandcover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] You should grok at this, water brother.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:31:06 2012 No.3087986 >>3087804 The wonders of common sense, actually.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:32:37 2012 No.3087988 >>3087804 You got to be careful with hienlin. He didn't always write the same ideology for his books. Most of his books were rather libertarian. Starship troopers was very much not. I think the only thing he was consistent on was his hate of monogamy.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:34:50 2012 No.3087993 >>3087988 I guess every man hates monogamy, even if you stick to the same woman.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:36:23 2012 No.3087999 >>3087805 The facts of science Or maybe you'd rather ideology based policies instead say evidence based ones??

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:37:25 2012 No.3088001 >>3087999 A fact doesn't give you a way to act about it. How do you base ideologies on hard science? >gravitation works like this, therefore... Now what?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:38:27 2012 No.3088006 File: 164 KB, 1920x1040, Hank.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Blasphemers! SST is the perfect movie.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:39:00 2012 No.3088013 >>3088001 >gravitation works like this, therefore... NASA's space program should work like this

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:46:56 2012 No.3088028 >>3088013 Like what? Are you retarded?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:47:26 2012 No.3088030 >>3088013 >implying Hitler didn't base his fascism on Darwin You're fucking stupid.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:48:33 2012 No.3088033 >>3087993 >I guess every man hates monogamy, even if you stick to the same woman. 15-year-old idiot detected.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:49:19 2012 No.3088034
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>>3087764

I second this anon. Asimov is an undisputed boss, even if Big Willie did ruin a perfectly decent novel with that POS I, Robot. Comparatively, I haven't read a lot by Clarke, but 2001 is still awesome.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:50:06 2012 No.3088038 >>3088033 >implying you're a man and you don't want to fuck every semi-hot woman you see

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:52:08 2012 No.3088041 >>3088034 What to read from Asimov? That Foundation trilogy? I don't want any shit with sentient robots, seeing as that's on par with astrology and Jesus in grilled toasts.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:56:15 2012 No.3088051 >>3088041 >I don't want any shit with sentient robots, seeing as that's on par with astrology and Jesus in grilled toasts. >Denying the possibility of sentient technological organisms. >2012 CE

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:56:46 2012 No.3088053 >>3088041 Answer me this you homos.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 14:58:05 2012 No.3088060

>>3088051

Yes, and the world top expert in neurology agrees with me.

There is no reason for complex electronics to ever develop sentience.

Think of a simple machine, multiply its complexity by however much you want, it won't grow a consciousness for so much. A computer is just that: basics multiplied by a lot.

5 dominos falling onto each other create a series of causes and effects, but no sentience.

You can use 50 billion dominoes, it still won't become sentient.

If you know anything about how electronics work, you know it's a case of 50 billion dominoes.

>2012
>believing in dominoes magically turning sentient

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:00:53 2012 No.3088064 >>3088051 >CE >teenage faggot detected

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:02:26 2012 No.3088069 >>3087988 Speaking of which I really wish line marriages like in The moon is harsh mistress existed. I think they would work wonderfully at least in an economic sense.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:05:00 2012 No.3088074 File: 48 KB, 468x591, 122653986771.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3088051 >forever mad that all history uses the birthdate of Jesus Christ Stay butthurt.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:09:22 2012 No.3088084 >>3088074 >not using Nietzsche's new calendar >2012

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:10:15 2012 No.3088087

>>3088060

If fundamental atoms can group together to create biological organisms, they can easily comprise electronic organisms. The overlapping transistors in CPUs aren't all that dissimilar to neural networks. Even if that isn't how it happens. Its easy to conceive of a coding structure that can exist within a machine on par with how DNA exists in what we perceive to be reality. Just because the system is binary based means little. A binary based system has the same chance of forming something as molecular one.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:12:34 2012 No.3088094 >>3088087 Indeed, this is also why I don't think brains directly "create" consciousness. Conscious computers shall remain fairy tales to me until we understand what consciousness consists of.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:16:40 2012 No.3088102

>>3087999

what?

science in itself does not contain any implications on politics. It can present a guideline of actions once political stances are made up, but not beforehand.

Example:
Ecology might give us guidelines on how to preserve the environment.
But the question wether or not we collectively think the environment should be preserved is a political one.

Also sciencentific theories are by no means neutral, but influenced by the political views scientists hold at the time. This does not necessarily amount to meddling with the scientifid method to get the results you want, but may present itself subtler, for example by choosing which questions are to be answered by scientific means.

To make it abundantly clear:
Science presents a system that allows to critizise statements on the world in a way that all involved partys accept as sound. It does not claim to produce absolute truth or undisputable fact.
If you want that you should look into religion.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:18:59 2012 No.3088110 >>3088102 Don't worry, he's a scientifist: he thinks science is truth and never biased in any ways, therefore any political opinions he may have are THE TRUTH. >funny when retards treat science like a religion

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:22:52 2012 No.3088122 SST Movie > SST Book because: less political lectures on the benefits of fascism, more subtle playing in the fallacies inherent in fascist thought, more action with giant alien Bugs. SST is one of Heinleins weaker works

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:24:24 2012 No.3088126

>>3088110
Its even funnier when retards deny that there can be any absolutes to objective reality, thinking that empirical observation must be flawed.

Keep that in mind the next time you are writhing around on the floor in agony with an infected abscess underneath a wisdom tooth. Two people come to your aid; the first, a mystic who says the only alleviation from your pain will come by sacrificing a goat to a pagan goddess; the second, a dentist who wants to extract the tooth, give you strong opiate painkillers, and antibiotics to treat the infection. You, recalling you previous rejection of knowledge, laugh at both both them. You tell them that both of their treatments are just as relativistically absurd, as there can be no objective truth. You continue to writhe on the floor in agony.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:25:26 2012 No.3088129

>>3088122

Anything that puts duty over your self-centered pleasures is deemed "fascism".

There's nothing fascist in ST. It's just the idea of society based on military discipline, and I saw nothing there I didn't agree with. Moreover, Heinlein's predictions came true: we have grown softer to the point of being disgusting.

Get this, my father works in a prison where rapists and child-molesters are given saunas and massages for free, while my honest and hard-working father is not given any of this despite a messed up shoulder. He works with constant pain while rapists get massaged.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:26:12 2012 No.3088133 >>3088030 on a misconception of evolution. yeah he did >>3088028 so you think we can go to space by strapping hotdogs to our shoes. Nice.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:27:14 2012 No.3088136

>>3088126

What you observe is one thing. Whether it's real or not is a wholly different debate and not one I'd care about much in case of tooth agony.

There is, however, a difference between feeling pain and political decisions. The former is pretty easy to deal with while the second is based on ideology, itself based on many parameters.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:29:07 2012 No.3088141

>>3088110

The thing is I'm a biologist and it really makes me cringe when people pull that "science provides facts that policies should be based on" stuff. It usually translates to: " I don't like a random group of people and I seek for ways to validate my sentiment". And the never use Astronomy, particle physics or anorganic chemistry to rationalise why they don't like a random group of people. They always try to fuck biology front left and center.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:29:38 2012 No.3088144

>>3088133
>on a misconception of evolution

What misconception? Hitler believed that might was right, in the jungle as in the world. No misconception there.

>so you think we can go to space by strapping hotdogs to our shoes.

The political question has nothing to do with the technology. The political question would be along the lines of SHOULD we go to space?

You're either misunderstanding on purpose or so far up your own ass that you're tickling your prostate and about to come.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:30:24 2012 No.3088147 >>3088141 Seconded.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:30:40 2012 No.3088148

>>3088129
>It's just the idea of society based on military discipline
That's fascist, dumbass. Because, get this, some people don't WANT to be in the military. Some people aren't meant to be in the military. it's much more efficient to permit people the right to choose and judging them equally regardless of their choice.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:32:42 2012 No.3088158

>>3088148

Are you retarded? Fascism isn't based on militarism, for fuck's sake.

Besides, in the novel, nobody is forced to join the military; the exact opposite exactly. The only catch is that you can't vote on anything until you've served your country, and I find that totally fair. Why should anyone be given this important privilege without earning it? It only makes people not give a shit. If you had to serve to vote, people would value that shit far more, and only serious people would be able to vote.

>I'd be for it

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:33:44 2012 No.3088163

>>3088148
>it's much more efficient to permit people the right to choose and judging them equally regardless of their choice.

More efficient? Wrong. People who put themselves before their country/group will not vote with regards for others as much as those who are ready and willing to sacrifice themselves for the whole.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:34:15 2012 No.3088164

>>3088144
Hitler believed in human guided evolution. That's not the way to healthy populations and it's proven.

And the political question is one about technology. or maybe you think we should teach kids from kindergarten to college that they can reach space on an iron board.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:35:03 2012 No.3088167 >>3088158 I never said it was based on militarism necessarily. Fascism is against liberty. That's why it's stupid.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:35:32 2012 No.3088165 >>3088060 This. Absolutely right. Also, 'denying the possibility' != 'calling out a stupid idea on being stupid'. Theoretically, I'm not denying the possibility of a Jesus appearing on grilled cheese, even though the idea is retarded.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:36:34 2012 No.3088168

>>3088129

> There's nothing fascist in ST. It's just the idea of society based on military discipline

Dude that is the very core Idea of fascism.

> It's just the idea of society based on military discipline, and I saw nothing there I didn't agree with.

So you're a fascist. Please stop claiming you're not. You're even pulling that classic "the wicked are benefited by corrupt society, while the decent carry it's burden" argumentation in your post.

I think I'll now get some popcorn and sit here an wait until you try to smite the parasites rampant in our society with righteous violence.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:36:50 2012 No.3088169

>>3088164
>Hitler believed in human guided evolution. That's not the way to healthy populations and it's proven.

Yeah, because American populations sure look healthy compared to Germany's population in the 1930's...

>shot yourself in the foot

>And the political question is one about technology. or maybe you think we should teach kids from kindergarten to college that they can reach space on an iron board.

I don't know a single politician or political system that is against technology and the reason is simple: whoever is against technology will be outwitted or killed pretty fast.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:39:39 2012 No.3088175

>>3088167

Fascism is against liberty? What the hell are you talking about?

Democracy is against liberty too, if you want it that way.

Fascism is based on individuality, in that leaders are individuals with power and the responsibility that goes with it. Democracy isn't much different except that instead of one responsible person, we get a muddled mess of many deciders who never take responsibility for anything because it's dissolved amongst so many that nobody feels responsible, or powerful.

If aliens attacked, would you rather have Hitler in charge of defending us or John Lennon?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:40:26 2012 No.3088177 >>3088169 There are plenty of politicians who support policies contrary to evidence though.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:41:12 2012 No.3088183

>>3088168

Then I'm a Fascist. Righteous violence works on whoever understands nothing else but violence.

Do you know why burglars burglarise London apartments more than any Texas apartments? Because Texans have guns and can kill them.

It's not that hard to understand.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:42:28 2012 No.3088185 >>3088177 >There are plenty of politicians who support policies contrary to evidence though. Example requested.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:43:30 2012 No.3088191 >>3088126 Dude thats a pretty shitty straw man argument you put up there. 1: Single person != society 2: Individual pain != complex societal issues Go back to the drawing board and come back when you developed a decent straw man argument.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:43:30 2012 No.3088193 >>3088175 >in that leaders are individuals with power and the responsibility that goes with it and suppress the will of the governed.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:46:35 2012 No.3088197

>>3088193

The governing come from the governed. Unless you believe in anarchy, there's no way around that.

And even in anarchy, people would immediately hierchise away. There is no society without politics and different positions of power. That shit only exists in the bubbled existences of blunt-minded hippies and happy idiots too foolish to understand what's going on around them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:49:57 2012 No.3088206 >>3088197 fascism - 1 dude/committee making decisions regardless of the opinions of his compatriots democracy - voting, consultancy, referendum. Don't give any of that 'it's not perfect so it's just the same' crap.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:50:43 2012 No.3088207

>>3088183

finally where down to the violence.
I'm fine with that.

> randomly comparing two complex socioeconomic spheres and singeling out one property to explain differences in another property

Studies on Gun Ownership and violent crime that actually care to do the statistics often come to other conclusions.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:53:39 2012 No.3088218

>>3088206
>fascism - 1 dude/committee making decisions regardless of the opinions of his compatriots

That's not how actual fascism works. There's a main leader with power over everyone else, and then under him, other guys who have power over everyone else except those above him, etc.

It's any structure for things that function, such as companies, corporations, the army. Any serious organisation functions that way. The rest is retardedness.

Why put someone in charge whom you KNOW has what it takes when you can have lots of ignorant folks vote about who they think should be in charge?

Democracy is all about being wrong and ignorant but TOGETHER.

Fuck that.

Your leaders are all businessmen, lawyer, and professional politicians. China only has scientists and engineers as leaders. Guess what.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:55:13 2012 No.3088223

>>3088207

Guns are proven to diminish violent crimes. For every person gunned down, you have 5,000 unreported on the news who saved their lives because they had a gun.

>woman defends herself with a gun
>nothing happens, assaulting party flees

>woman can't defend self
>gets raped and murdered
>gets news coverage

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 15:59:33 2012 No.3088233
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>>3088218
It's the same result. a completely lack of accountability. no matter how many you have at different levels, they still can't be removed unless they 1. choose to or 2. get order from higher up.
There's a good reason why you can only get elected 2 times and why things can be shifted around every 4 years.

You do not know better than these dudes, so don't even try.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:00:35 2012 No.3088239

>>3088223

> implying that countries that have strict gun control have 5,000 times more deaths by violent crimes per capita than countries who have lax gun regulation

I live in a country with relatively strict gun control and I'm quite happy that the violent encounters I had so far did not involve guns on either side.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:03:24 2012 No.3088250

>>3088233
>There's a good reason why you can only get elected 2 times and why things can be shifted around every 4 years.

That's also why Presidents of country aren't running the show anymore. Anyone high enough in the military, for instance, will stay in power for decades, potentially, while Presidents come and go.

That's why Bill Clinton was denied information on Roswell when he asked for it.

That's why Henry Kissinger ran the Vietnam War and also the two Irak wars.

Are you feeling me, genius?

As to not knowing more than a bunch of conceited freemasons, I think I can.

Look at the results of THEIR ideas: Americans being dumb and fat as fuck.

Nazi Germany looked gorgeous and still would.

>truth be told, people need to be led

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:04:42 2012 No.3088253 >>3088239 I live in the country that has the most guns per capita in the entire world. We have extremely low gun crimes.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:06:45 2012 No.3088257 >>3088250 > Nazi Germany looked gorgeous and still would. Please stop talking about thinks you know jack shit about. - A German

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:08:09 2012 No.3088265

>>3088250
They are still being led under democracy. The difference is that when things turn to shit, we're offered a chance to change things around without sacrificing lives.

You ever been to modern day Germany? Their fruit is cheap as fuck because of socialism and the girls are all gorgeous because of better health and diversity.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:08:22 2012 No.3088262 >>3088253 But you also have low poverty rates. That's not the case for many countries.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:09:24 2012 No.3088269 >>3088250 > society will collapse if we don't start killing people immideatly. Jews are first.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:09:55 2012 No.3088271 >>3088257 Your Germany is filled with Turks and what not, don't even act like it's not true. Your Germany is also far shittier than it used to be. >Tokio Hotel >never woulda happened under Hitler

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:10:57 2012 No.3088272 >>3088265 >They are still being led under democracy. When your President elect cannot obtain information from non-elected personnel, I doubt your democracy.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:11:43 2012 No.3088274 >>3088269 Illiterate fucks are first. >immideatly

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:15:05 2012 No.3088289

>>3088271

I even act like this is not really a problem. Sure there are muslim fascists between them but they are pretty much on par with our homebrewn fascists. And I refuse to be narrowed down to choose between these two flavours of fascism, but rather fight them both.

And I don't consider annoying teen bands as problematic as genocide, but I guess thats a question of taste.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:20:29 2012 No.3088305 >>3088289 The Western World is on the decline because of soft people like you. I hope one day you'll understand that the rest of the world is not soft and will not be as nice to you as you are to them.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:25:38 2012 No.3088317

>>3088305

In contrast to you I actually have been to many parts of the world and in my experience people are even nicer. Most of the world is made up by nice people with a few assholes in between.

Also I do not consider myself soft as I am prepared to deal with the assholes.

And fuck the western world.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:29:30 2012 No.3088329 File: 272 KB, 600x860, the_man_in_the_high_castle_frontcover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This thread is now about Phillip K. Dick

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:30:53 2012 No.3088333

>>3088317
>In contrast to you I actually have been to many parts of the world and in my experience people are even nicer.

Because you're a tourist who pays to be there. Nobody is mean to their client. The one foreign country I went to where people were radically nicer than what I know was the USA, Vermont. Americans are nice. But if you go to China, you'll be given racial slur for just being there and not being Chinese.

>tourism != in depth knowledge of other people

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:31:39 2012 No.3088337 >>3088329 All of his characters are forgettable. And I'm OK with that: they don't matter as much as the stuff they encounter.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:32:25 2012 No.3088343 File: 31 KB, 264x400, vonnegut.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] also Kurt Vonnegut

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:35:31 2012 No.3088352 >>3088337 I think it is because his characters are not really round but stand ins for different worldviews. But I also think it's OK because characters are not the main interest in science fiction

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:36:04 2012 No.3088357 >>3088352 Exactly. Same with most horror. Lovecraft doesn't have a single memorable character that I can think of, but that's for the same reason. It's just not people-centered stories and I'm damn fine with it.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:38:06 2012 No.3088361

>>3088333

> Because you're a tourist who pays to be there.

Nope.

> Because you're a tourist who pays to be there.

some chinese do this, see the point about assholes. Most will look at you weird especially in rural areas. But still they are often quite nice to be around if you can get to know them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:40:42 2012 No.3088376 I think it's funny how concepts taken from Dicks work are referenced in nearly every major sci-fi movie.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:45:35 2012 No.3088403 >>3088376 I'm going to read Valis next, from the Library of America edition volume, which is fucking sweet.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:47:56 2012 No.3088418 Why does everyone think ST is a fascist book? If anything it shows that libertarianism can thrive under many different forms of government. In this case it's a libertarian military state.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 16:48:56 2012 No.3088419 >>3088376 >Dick concepts

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:06:30 2012 No.3088475 >>3088418 I'll never wrap my head around the US concept of libertarianism. How is SST libertarian in your view?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:07:30 2012 No.3088476 This thread is diamonds.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:10:30 2012 No.3088484

>>3088475

I didn't see one instance of the government taking away the natural rights of its citizens. There seems to be a thriving free market. The military wasn't dedicated to policing its citizens, merely protecting them from outside threats. There is no draft, military service is entirely voluntary.

Of course life in the military is highly authoritarian, but that's true of any military.

It's been some years since I've read the book so I may be mistaken.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:19:29 2012 No.3088510

>>3088475
>>3088484

US Libertarianism is more similar to classical liberalism than what the rest of the world defines as libertarianism, if it helps. I realize our political system is all kinds of fucked with the naming.

>liberal party is the progressive party

lol

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:22:33 2012 No.3088519 >>3088510 It always amuses me than liberals are considered left wing in the USA. Here they are considered right wing.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:26:33 2012 No.3088538

>>3088519

Yeah I don't really get it either.

Like I said our "liberals" are actually progressive left-wingers.

Our "conservatives" used to be the liberal party, but they've drifted towards fascism lately.

The Libertarian party is the last bastion of classic liberalism in the United States.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:42:31 2012 No.3088594 >>3088538 Why does everyone assume that Fascism is bad?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:44:31 2012 No.3088601 >>3088594 Because they believe civil liberties to be good.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:45:30 2012 No.3088604

>>3088594

I don't like the idea of corporations and big government being in bed together.

It's too easy for me to be a replacable cog in the machine of the state that way.

I'm a staunch individualist.

I can see how others would desire to live in a fascist state, but to me it seems like a hell on earth.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:45:30 2012 No.3088606

>>3088484
Well, in SST people are only granted full citizenship after serving in the army. It's true that you can become wealthy without enrolling and becoming a citizen but you can't vote. There is a recurring suggestion that you cannot be a man without becoming a citizen the protagonist's wealthy Father, who initially explains how fruitless enrolling will be, is later found to have enrolled himself, inspired by his son and unable to keep living a lie

The cause of the "virtue" in the society also seems to be capital punishment, and the beating and conditioning of children (a military lecturer explains at length about why people should be trained as though they were dogs).

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:45:30 2012 No.3088607 >>3088601 Liberties to do what?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:47:30 2012 No.3088620 >>3088594 I think that as people become more unreflective and helpless they become more receptive to fascism. As a wiser man than myself once said, "And that's the nice thing about fascists. They'll tell you what to think."

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:53:32 2012 No.3088638 File: 78 KB, 574x700, pig.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3088060 >Chinese Room Argument >The Spemann-Mangold Organizer. Check, and mate.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:53:32 2012 No.3088639

>>3088620

Oh the irony... Everyone here says "fascism" and your first reaction is to NOT THINK ABOUT FASCISM. You can't even stop a second to think about it, you just have this knee-jerk reaction to it and that's the extent of your thinking.

Fascists don't tell you what to think, they get shit done for individual goals. It's either a society based on human individuals, or a society based solely on money and giant corporations superceeding nations.

You guys prefer corporatism to fascism, in before Mussolini's quote.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:53:32 2012 No.3088642 >>3088638 It's not actually the Chinese Room Argument. There's a difference. In the Chinese Room, the guy who doesn't speak Chinese is still conscious. A computer never is.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:58:32 2012 No.3088647 >>3088607 Whatever we like, so long as it isn't hurting anyone else.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 17:59:33 2012 No.3088651 >>3088606 I don't see voting as an inalienable right. I'd be just fine not being able to vote so long as I was assured my freedoms.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:00:32 2012 No.3088654 >>3088639 In what way does fascism preserve individual liberties and encourage free thinking?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:01:32 2012 No.3088657 File: 1.02 MB, 325x203, j7nVY.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3088639 >Fascists don't tell you what to think, they get shit done for individual goals. The individual goals of your fascist leader.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:07:34 2012 No.3088669 >>3088654 Because of its focus on the individual rather than the group.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:09:34 2012 No.3088675 >>3088669 It seems to me that every fascist government has always gone the exact opposite direction. On what grounds do you make your claim?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:11:10 2012 No.3088679 >>3088675 Definition of Fascism according to Hitler and Mussolini, in THEIR words, not the words of their enemies and those who hate and disagree with them.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:21:09 2012 No.3088707

PAY ATTENTION TO THIS:

In SST people are not required to specifically join the Army in order to become citizens.
They are required to work for the government in any way the state requires them. It could be any kind of job, but the protagonist is only fit for the army.

A person ranks a series of jobs he would like to work in and the government assigns him as it sees fit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:21:09 2012 No.3088708 >>3088679 You mean what they told the people in order to gain power? You're telling me to ignore all evidence to the contrary and to take the people who would perpetrate this delusion on their word? Does that sound about right?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:22:11 2012 No.3088711 >>3088707 This. They don't even have to keep it it forever, just for a small period of time.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:25:11 2012 No.3088721

>>3088708

Hitler's writings were not originally supposed to reach the masses, as demonstrated by what's in the book.

The idea that everything said about Hitler is nothing but pure objectivity is only testimony to your naïveté.

I hope you realise the same stuff would be said on capitalist America if Nazis had won. You put no grain of salt in anything, you're the perfect target of propaganda.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:28:11 2012 No.3088727

>>3088721

Nothing is purely objective, but the fact remains that under fascist forms of government people tended to lose their liberties. This comes from numerous firsthand accounts, not all of which are objective but which all seem to paint a similar picture.

Unless you can find me some accounts to the contrary, and not tell me to read the words written by the men who had everything to gain from people accepting this charade, I'm going to have to call you out on some massive bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:29:11 2012 No.3088729 >>3087565 >So glad to have found a badass author when it comes to politics. LOL

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:34:11 2012 No.3088736 >>3088727 inb4 "jews did it"

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:34:11 2012 No.3088739

>>3088727
>Nothing is purely objective, but the fact remains that under fascist forms of government people tended to lose their liberties

Give me liberties lost by Germans during the 1930's.

They got nothing but positive results from Hitler's rule in the beginning: more food, less debts, a military, more science, more technology, etc. Everything from TV to lasers started with Nazism. Need I mention rockets?

All these scientists were given the liberties to research what they wanted. Fascism was the first system in Germany to prioritise the individual's capacity over his class origin: you'd be given grants to study at uni if you were good enough, not because of your family name.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:39:13 2012 No.3088746 >>3088739 Have you ever visited the museum Topography of Terror in Berlin? They clearly show that germans were living a shit life under the nazi government, but the propaganda tried to show life was getting better. Get some education on the subject.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:41:49 2012 No.3088749 >>3088746 I prefer to listen to people who actually lived there and other people who actually met Nazi soldiers. Why do you trust the propaganda so blindly?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:42:49 2012 No.3088751 >>3088746 Life WAS getting better after the Great Depression era, dumbass.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:42:50 2012 No.3088754

>>3088739

But if you were the wrong religion you'd be put into ghettos, disarmed, and shipped off to forced labor camps. Or gay. Or someone who disagreed politically with the nazi party.

>censorship of news sources
>travel into and out of country restricted
>no guns

The list just goes on and on.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:44:50 2012 No.3088758 >>3088754 News sources weren't that censored; anyone could read the international press at any newsagent's. Fact.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:44:50 2012 No.3088759 >>3088751 Sure, it was already improving before the nazis and they took credit for it. The museum states this. However, the nazis did little to really rise the quality of life and only took money from the people to invest in the war machine.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:45:49 2012 No.3088762 >>3088749 You already have your opinion and will only listen to those who confirm it. You are an idiot and are not interested in the truth.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:46:49 2012 No.3088765 >>3088759 Considering what Germany was under with the Treaty of Versailles, Hitler DEFINITELY improved Germany's condition and didn't steal credit from anyone. Hitler did that himself. You're in denial.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:47:49 2012 No.3088768 >>3088762 >You already have your opinion and will only listen to those who confirm it. >You are an idiot and are not interested in the truth. Guess who's refusing to talk and isn't changing their opinion?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:48:49 2012 No.3088771 >>3088762 I have changed my opinion often according to what new knowledge I have learned, so your petty accusation is not founded.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:50:49 2012 No.3088775 >>3088758 Source? >>3088762 Oh the ironing

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:53:49 2012 No.3088779 File: 14 KB, 240x240, riseandfall.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3088775 William L. Shirer, British journalist who lived in Germany during the 1930s and wrote a famous book on the rise and fall of the Third Reich.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:53:49 2012 No.3088780

>>3088765
Hitler even sold stamps that people could collect and then trade for a Beetle (the car).
The money was used in the war and no car was ever delivered.
Also, did he not steal the money from the jews and other people who were imprisioned for various reasons?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:54:49 2012 No.3088782 >>3088780 They didn't have time to give the cars.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:55:51 2012 No.3088785 >>3088779 well, I'll go read that and possibly revise my opinion. The censorship was only a small part of my dislike for fascistic forms of government.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:55:51 2012 No.3088787 >>3088782 source? proof?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:55:51 2012 No.3088788 >>3088784 What? Under that treaty, Germany was doomed to pay impossible debts until the 1980's. Hitler saved Germany from that treaty, fact.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:55:52 2012 No.3088784 >>3088765 Are you saying that under the Treaty of Versailles Hitler was obliged to improve the people's condition and could not work around it? Explain it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:56:51 2012 No.3088789 >>3088785 Read Mein Kampf, you'll learn more.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:56:51 2012 No.3088790 >>3088785 Read the New Ford Translation, only good translation of Mein Kampf.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 18:58:51 2012 No.3088798 >>3088789 I'll read mein kampf but with a few shakers of salt. Obvious propaganda is obvious, etc.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 19:01:51 2012 No.3088808

>>3088798

It's actually not propaganda... It talks about how to use propaganda, though. But keep in mind that the word wasn't pejorative back then, it just meant public relations really. Hitler discusses previous war propaganda and how it was stupid when it represented the enemy as weak and ridiculous, as it only made the troops feel horrible when they faced ACTUAL enemy, and felt betrayed by their own country for having seemingly lied to them, whereas propaganda that represented the enemy as nasty brutes was far more successful.

That sort of thing.

Reading it, you'll realise Hitler hated Communism more than anything, and it was only because Communism was related to Jews that Hitler hated Jews. In the first pages, you'll actually read of how Hitler found antisemitism to be unfair. True story.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 19:02:51 2012 No.3088812 >>3088808 If jews are so hungry for money, how could they be related to communism?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 19:04:51 2012 No.3088815 >>3088812 I've always wondered this myself. >>3088808 Like I said, I'll check it out, but it's obviously propaganda (not in the sense he used the word)

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 19:05:51 2012 No.3088819 no one mentioned the moon is a harsh mistress? how he lays out the plan for a revolution got me thinking. read it op.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 19:10:17 2012 No.3088833

>>3088812

Marx, Communism being international, etc. Back then Fascists and Communists were polarised, since Communism's goal was to spread worldwide, most Nazis thought this was implemented by the Jews at some level, although antisemitism has been given WAY more focus than anticommunism, which was Fascism's core.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 19:20:17 2012 No.3088857 >>3087565 9/10, subtle but still noticeable to the trained eye.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 19:25:17 2012 No.3088870 >>3088857 Dead serious.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 19:49:24 2012 No.3088926 >>3088739 The Nuremburg Laws were 1935. Kristallnacht was 1938. Game, set, match

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 20:15:28 2012 No.3088998 File: 35 KB, 500x363, 1291765850593.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3087766

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 20:56:31 2012 No.3089112 >>3088926 And? That contradicts nothing I said, retard.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 21:14:10 2012 No.3089159 >>3089112 Nuremberg laws weren't a loss of liberties how, exactly?

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 22:01:17 2012 No.3089257 >>3089159 inb4 "but jews aren't people so they don't have rights"

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 22:09:20 2012 No.3089277

>>3088870
You realize that for a political mechanism like his to work, there has to be "the enemy". I suspect that heinlens vision will more or less come true if we run into different species in space, but it only leads to misery if it is contained on earth.

Also, read the forever war for a way better analysis on the follies of perpetual war.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 22:15:52 2012 No.3089288 >>3089277 Do you happen to have a direct download link for that? I can't find shit in the way of ebooks since Demonoid went down.

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 22:22:38 2012 No.3089302 >>3089288 http://www.mediafire.com/?wcoio7sug6j825a There you go, in return just please consider that militarism (from the right or the left) is problematic at best.

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 22:35:40 2012 No.3089339
File: 56 KB, 441x700, 1297823105437.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3089302

Oh I'm not OP but I am the guy who believes that ST is a Libertarian military state.

I'll keep it in mind as I read this. Have been wanting to for a while. Thanks!

Anonymous Thu Oct 25 23:01:07 2012 No.3089380
File: 27 KB, 366x380, oh shit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3089257

>Give me liberties lost by Germans during the 1930's.

ONLY ARYANS WERE GERMANS, SO NO JEWS WERE GERMANS, SO NO GERMANS LOST RIGHTS.

CHECKMATE, HITLER IS THE BEST, HEINLEIN IS NEXT BEST, YOU HAVE SHIT TASTE AND YOU LOSE, YOU SUBHUMAN COMMUSLAV COLLECTIVIST PROPAGANDA INUNDATED FAGGOT.

>>	Summer Break 2012 Thu Oct 25 23:11:10 2012 No.3089403 >implying most of that was even politics

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 23:36:31 2012 No.3089433 >>3089380 but Aryan spouses of Jews lost rights too, tho Franco was best

>>	Anonymous Thu Oct 25 23:56:41 2012 No.3089493 >>3089433 When my wife studied for a year in spain, she stayed at a spanish widow's townhouse. She had two portraits on either side of her dining room with candles burning under them. On the right, the Virgin, on the Left, Franco.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 05:03:59 2012 No.3090232 >>3087988 Starship Troopers is a critique of Eisenhower's America. Read Expanded Universe. He took a break from writing Stranger to do Troopers. I can't see him being that bipolar. This was pre-stroke after all.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 05:51:15 2012 No.3090275 It's great to read Forever War right after Starship Troopers. Basically the same book, except by a disillusioned Vietnam veteran instead of a war-boner Korean War veteran.

Anonymous Fri Oct 26 06:19:41 2012 No.3090295

>>3088749

> I prefer to listen to people who actually lived there and other people who actually met Nazi soldiers.

this makes me think of my uncle who commited suicide at the age of twelve. according to my father he was a sensitive boy and couldn't stand the military drill of the hitler youth any more.

Of my grandfather who trashed toys he made for orphaned children when he would be awarded a party reward for it, claiming he did it all for the Führer, not out of empathy. He was beaten quite severely for it.

It makes me think of the old man I treat who where in the wehrmacht, and of the nightmares and the yelling at night they still got 70 years later.

Keep in mind that none of these people where the actual victims of the nazi regime. They were considered Aryans, but still there life was shit under the nazis.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 06:23:42 2012 No.3090297 File: 103 KB, 912x1216, wizard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3088808 > mfw mein kampf is not propaganda

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 06:30:41 2012 No.3090300 >>3090232 I was always thinking if the SST book is actually as ironic and witty as the SST movie

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 06:40:43 2012 No.3090311 >>3087565 Loved this book!I saw the movie when I was 10, then I read the book at 16 and again last year, wehn I was 21. Never felt so much inspired by the words of a military man.

>>	Anonymous Fri Oct 26 10:57:30 2012 No.3090602 >>3090275 Heinlein wasn't combat veteran

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/lit/ - Literature