/lit/ Teach me about Islam, the religion, the culture, the architecture, the poetry inb4 mad amerifats

File: 146 KB, 500x688, tumblr_lqyec09nk11qjsg8qo1_500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:03:31 2012 No.3036600 [DELETED]

/lit/

Teach me about Islam, the religion, the culture, the architecture, the poetry

inb4 mad amerifats

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:06:31 2012 No.3036607 “What you seek is seeking you.” ―Rumi

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:09:30 2012 No.3036614 it's a shit religion and the Quran is the worst holy book, there's literally nothing of value in it. even rumi is awful.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:10:30 2012 No.3036618 can you not just read a wikipedia article, at the least?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:10:30 2012 No.3036619 Islamic art and architecture is pretty cool even if the religion is shit tier.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:13:30 2012 No.3036625 >>3036618 We've had good threads about Islam in the past. I know there's some knowledgeable posters on here.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:14:30 2012 No.3036628 >>3036607 Rumi is great. Too bad Coleman Barks is a shit translator/interpretator.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:15:30 2012 No.3036631 >>3036619 I've heard they have good poetry too. The religion is probably the most lacking of all Abrahamic beliefs. I read somewhere where Harold Bloom said Allah is the most like the old Yahweh of the Torah. And that sure isn't a compliment.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:23:21 2012 No.3036654 Any muslim/arab books worth reading?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:25:21 2012 No.3036662 >>3036631 It is for Bloom. He's a big fat jew. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm curious to know how different Islam was before the Islamic revolution compared to now.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:27:23 2012 No.3036666 [DELETED]

>>3036631
Allah is a lot 'bigger' than Yahweh. He's more like the neo-platonic 'one'.

I have found the 'awam' or common muslims tend to have a less nuanced idea of Allah than the sufis or ulema/theologians. You won't gain much from discussion with common muslims.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:28:23 2012 No.3036670 so is Sufism as awesome as it sounds? I can fuck with Rumi, I get that guy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:29:23 2012 No.3036674 >>3036654 We had a massive thread related to the middle east, near asia, India etc. Had some good translated recs but there's so much out there that isn't translated and avaliable.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:30:22 2012 No.3036678 >>3036662 >It is for Bloom. He's a big fat jew. Nah, he talked in the same thing about how the original Yahweh is really a pretty shit guy. He was definitely a rather irritable and egocentric motherfucker.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:30:22 2012 No.3036679

Easy/Essentials mode:
-The Qur'an: Find an older Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur'an with the original Arabic and commentary. (Strictly speaking it doesn't NEED to be Ali, but I'm fond of his. You can find all major translations online, of course. http://quran.com/ for example)
-Hadith: Read an-Nanawi's 40 Qudsi Ahadith. I've never used these sites so I can't comment on how good they are but they came up on search: http://www.guidedways.com/qudsihadith.php and http://sunnahfollowers.net/An-Nawawis-Forty-Hadiths/www.adly.net/deed/hadith/other/hadithnawawi.html
-No god but God, by Reza Aslan. He presents a very brief introduction to Islam as a religion, cultures, and civilizations and opines on its current situations and where it may it go. Very accessible with good information.
-the Garden of Truth, by Seyyed Hossein Nasr. A treatise specifically on the history and meaning of Sufism.

Medium Core:
-Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources, by Martin Lings. Written by a convert, this is one of, if not, the most recommended Sirat (biographies of the Prophet) for English speakers. It's dense but great for developing a wide understanding of the Prophet's life as seen and understood by many Muslims (mostly takes a Sunni perspective, iir it having a bend, correctly).
-Understanding the Qur'an, by Muhammad Abdel Haleem. Presents the Qur'an from an Islamic perspective and writes it for a non-Muslim audience well. Basically an essential; I'd put it in the above category but I remember it being more demanding.
-If you can find some Tafseer (Qur'anic exegesis) they may be of interest. Here is one by Iranian cleric Muhammad Hussain Tabatabai http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/ it's incomplete but what I've read is interesting.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:32:22 2012 No.3036684 Someone post the recs from the other thread. Surely someone has the shit stashed away somewhere on their computer.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:36:24 2012 No.3036691

Allah is a lot 'bigger' than Yahweh. He's more like the neo-platonic 'one'. Yahweh is more like a tribal storm-god, whereas Allah is so much more a wholly 'other', totally 'absolute'.

I have found the 'awam' or common muslims tend to have a less nuanced idea of Allah than the sufis or ulema/theologians. You won't gain much from discussion with common muslims.

In terms of metaphyics, reality doesn't have its own separate being to Allah, to say it is separate is considered polytheism, or setting up a partner with him, which would deny his absoluteness. The universe is merely Allah's 'act', it is not simply something created and left to be like a watch with its maker. Some theologians came to a kind of heraclitan/buddhist like 'flux' conception of reality; that reality is a continuous series of creations, coming into and going out of existence, kind of like a film, constantly coming into existence and ceasing to exist. In any case nothing has existence on its own.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:37:24 2012 No.3036697

Can someone give me the low down on Sunni vs Shi'a Islam? No need to hold back and be politically correct here. Just tell me what's what.

From what I know, Shi'a's are the minority, and are present in the countries with, arguably, the more attractive women (Iran, Azerbaijan, Lebanon). Yes.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:40:24 2012 No.3036705

>>3036679
Advanced:
-Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence, by Mohammad Hashim Kamali. You'll want to do at least a bit of the essential reading before you get to this, but if you -really- want to see how Muslims understand and treat fiqh (jurisprudence) and you just -love- dense, dry non-fiction literature then you'll want to read this. I haven't read all of it but it's absolutely fascinating and it really helps to appreciate Islamic law and how it's supposed to be practiced.
-Henry Corbin. I've read his Alone with the Alone: Creative Imagination in the Sufism of Ibn 'Arabi and adored it. It tackles Islamic philosophy, sufism, and a bit of history. Corbin probably inserts a bit of himself into Ibn Arabi's philosophy but it's good stuff.
-The Venture of Islam, by Marshall G.S. Hodgson. A 3 volume comprehensive history of Islam that was intended to be even longer, until the author died. Haven't read this yet but I know it comes highly recommended and I intend to read it in the near future.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:40:24 2012 No.3036708 >>3036697 It is political. The shia believe in 12 infallible imams, with some aspects of their theology having some roots in pre islamic persian philosophy, such as some dealing with the problem of free will and evil.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:42:24 2012 No.3036715 I recommend Seyyid Hossein Nasr's works, although he isn't entirely orthodox, it will give you a nice intellectual rendering of islam.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:47:47 2012 No.3036732

>>3036697
If you want a book the Shia Revival by Vali Reza Nasr could get you up to speed from a Shi'ite perspective.

If you want a brief low-down: the Sunni and Shia split basically originates to the time after the Prophet's death when the umma (Muslim community) had to figure out who would lead the Muslims. Shi'i contend that Ali (Muhammad's Son-in-Law) was always intended to be the spiritual leader of the Muslims since he was the best transmitter of Muhammad's religion and characteristics. The Sunni contend that the leader has always needed to be elected by the believers, and Ali was not chosen as a Khalif (Caliph) until much later. After the murder of Ali and his sons Hussain and Hassan, a population of Muslims (largely but not entirely Persian and non-Arab) basically split off from the majority population and became known as the Shi'a (literally the Party of Ali).

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:50:50 2012 No.3036746

Iran was sunni until a few hundred years ago; many of the greatest sunni scholars were Persians.

It changed because of politics; a shia group takes power and enforces it on the population. The same has happened in saudi arabia, where wahabis took power and forced the population to become essentially wahabis, at least with the common people who don't know any better.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:54:50 2012 No.3036757 >>3036732 Thanks a lot for that post.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 11:57:49 2012 No.3036763

>>3036705
All of these recc's, btw, would do well with crash introductory course in Arabic and the Arabic abjad, if you're not already familiar. You don't need to try and learn the language but familiarizing yourself with the phonetics and how it's written can save you massive headaches when two authors spell the same name differently or whatever. It can be especially helpful in the biographies and more comprehensive works that will use Arabic terminology instead of its rough English equivalent (which makes sense because the English equivalent is usually anything but).

I don't know anything about architecture, but as far as poetry and literature goes there's Rumi, Suhrawardhi, the Thousand and One Nights, The Adventures of Amir Hamza, the Shahnameh, the Conference of the Birds, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, Ibn Arabi, al-Ghazzali, etc.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:01:49 2012 No.3036789

>>3036757
No problem. And this guy >>3036746 is correct: "Persia" actually had a much stronger Sunni population until fairly recently, though Shi'i thought has always been present in the Iran-Iraq region. Shi'ites are still found all around the Islamic world in Southern Asia to North Africa, of course. And there are other groups too: notably the Ibadhi, who are mostly found in Oman, and the largely Turkish Alawi both of whom are not Sunni or Shi'a (although the Alawi have been "adopted" by Twelver Shi'ism).

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:03:49 2012 No.3036792 Iranians seem a lot more relaxed, am I wrong? They're the only middle-easterns I see who don't wear head scarves and spend time with the opposite sex. At least, the immigrants in Canada are.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:07:51 2012 No.3036803 >>3036792 American (US and Canadian) Muslims are pretty chill in general.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:17:55 2012 No.3036844 >>3036803 That is because they have been Americanized and thus have more or less Christian values.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:19:43 2012 No.3036854 >>3036792 Maybe to some degree, but it's also a conservative country. The younger generation is trying a lot to change it though, hopefully they all don't get killed in a war.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:21:44 2012 No.3036861 Because Iranians (Persians) aren't arabs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:24:44 2012 No.3036871 >>3036844 More likely it's because they aren't treated like complete shit and are allowed to organically join the tapestry of society without being forced to assimilate, while being pushed into ghettos.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:27:44 2012 No.3036890 Islamic studies guy here, what's up? Anything in particular that interests you? Philosophy, mysticism, poetry...? >>3036679 >>3036705 This guy's recommendations are pretty solid.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:29:44 2012 No.3036901

>>3036871
More likely because it's much more difficult for them to get to North America than it is to get to Europe, so we get the cream of the crop while Europe gets stuck with all the barbarians come over in rusted trailers and leaky boats.

Most of the Muslims here in California tend to be middle class or higher and are the Muslim equivalent to a lapsed Catholic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:30:44 2012 No.3036905 >>3036890 Architecture? Visual art? Or you could just rant about whatever interests you. I''ll accept either.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:31:44 2012 No.3036909

>>3036631
>it's a shit religion and the Quran is the worst holy book, there's literally nothing of value in it. even rumi is awful.
>Islamic art and architecture is pretty cool even if the religion is shit tier.
> The religion is probably the most lacking of all Abrahamic beliefs. I read somewhere where Harold Bloom said Allah is the most like the old Yahweh of the Torah. And that sure isn't a compliment.

Ouch. People sure are dismissive of civilization they don't seem to know very much about...

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:32:44 2012 No.3036915 >>3036909 I learned all I need to know about Islam on 9/11.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:33:45 2012 No.3036921

>>3036890

For how much of the world's Islamic population conforms to the "crazy-ass hateful death-to-america" stereotype perpetuated in the US?

I've been told a lot that only a small percentage of the population are this way, but I've never heard the "fact" (if there could be such a thing) from someone who knew shit about Islam.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:37:45 2012 No.3036942 Looks like you googled my pic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:38:45 2012 No.3036953 >>3036901 Aren't most of the muslims, in California, Iranians who came after the Islamic revolution? Which explains why they're not crazy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:39:45 2012 No.3036957 File: 489 KB, 1048x1464, 22_rubaiyat_dulac_plate19.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3036942 ye, nigga, thanks for the edmund dulac

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:43:49 2012 No.3036971

>>3036921
I don't think there are actual ways to establish a number, so it'll always be arbitrary. But honestly, how many of the "crazy-ass hateful death-to-america" types do you think "hate" the US as opposed to hating the discord and destruction the US (and West) have caused by their military adventurism?

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:46:49 2012 No.3036982 >>3036921 What's the percentage of obese, retarded Americans compared to non-retarded Americans? Stupid people, no matter their culture or religion, are louder than non-stupid people.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:47:49 2012 No.3036990
File: 142 KB, 500x523, dietrich_rumi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3036957
He's amazing indeed. The middle east is by far my favourite place when its comes to producing love poetry. I've become an orientalist from all the Persian poetry and music I've been fattening my affections with, from Rumi, to Hafiz, to Omar Khayyam. Absolutely beautiful and full of soul and passion. Of course it might all be an illusion given that they are translated. But oh well.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:57:36 2012 No.3037029 >>3036953 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:59:36 2012 No.3037031 >>3036982 >What's the percentage of obese, retarded Americans compared to non-retarded Americans? About 9 to 1.

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 12:59:36 2012 No.3037034

>>3036905

Architecture and visual art aren't my strongest suit but they sure are interesting.

Since orthodox schools of Islam generally prohibit depictions of animate life, Islamic art developed along a completely different trajectory from most other art forms... there's been great emphasis on complex geometric patterns, Arabic calligraphy, natural symbology inspired by plant life and the idea of nature as a theophany, etc... essentially they've tried to devise ways to evoke a sense of Divine presence/immanence without actually depicting it.

Calligraphy is a pretty massive subfield and like the rest, has been developed into a pretty precise science. There are lots of distinct calligraphic styles and each has its own rules concerning letter formation and placement... as in Judaism there's a sacred science of numerology, but it's a pretty esoteric field that I don't know much about.

Different regional styles of gardens (Persian, Mughal, Spanish, etc.) are also worth mentioning

Here's a pretty decent documentary on Islamic architecture/art:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=pL4QpirJcYk

Titus Burkhardt's writings tended to focus pretty heavily on Islamic art, he had a book called "Art of Islam: Language and Meaning". Seyyed Hossein Nasr has a book called "Islamic Art and Spirituality"; if it's anything like the rest of his work I'm sure it's a pretty great introduction to the topic. Martin Lings' "Symbol & Archetype" covers religious symbolism in general from a mystical perspective.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 13:01:36 2012 No.3037043 File: 701 KB, 853x480, vlcsnap-101265.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3036990 Have you read any Forough Farrokhzad? Pic related. It's Kiarostami's (the greatest living director) The Wind Will Carry Us

Anonymous Sat Oct 6 13:18:16 2012 No.3037092

>>3036921
>For how much of the world's Islamic population conforms to the "crazy-ass hateful death-to-america" stereotype perpetuated in the US?

In my experience, so few that it's hardly worth mentioning. I returned not too long ago from spending a few months living/studying in an Arab country, and the people there were wonderful for the most part. If anything, being an American makes you more interesting. It's not an issue of young vs. old or religious vs. non-religious either; I was able to befriend different types of people without much difficulty, including some women. They are more deeply religious and socially conservative than Europeans and most Americans, and you're surrounded with far more reminders that you're in a religious society (calls to prayer, mosques, covered women, etc.) But like most Mediterranean cultures theirs is generally life-affirming, celebratory, laid back, and hospitable even in the face of significant economic and social hardship.

Anti-American protests were held there after I left due to the whole film controversy, but they were relatively small and mostly confined to hardline Salafists. I saw much, much huger protests concerning things like gas prices, cab fares, election reforms, and the situation in Syria, but things like that don't make it onto the evening news here.

All of this is anecdotal and the fanaticism situation is much worse in countries like Pakistan and (obviously) Iraq/Afghanistan, but by and large people there are far more concerned with life's daily difficulties and their own national/regional issues than they are with burning American flags or w/e. To put it tritely they're not very different from you and I in most respects.

>>	Anonymous Sat Oct 6 13:37:21 2012 No.3037159 File: 45 KB, 298x443, almost!.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3037043 >Kiarostami's (the greatest living director) >Not Majid Majidi But let's agree that Iranian cinema is fucking fantastic.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 10:42:41 2012 No.3039431 >>3037159 Any movie recs?

Anonymous Sun Oct 7 11:39:25 2012 No.3039518

>>3039431
Iranian film?
Majidi and Kiarostami have already been recommended. Try the former's Baran and the latter's The Wind Will Carry Us. Also the Color of Paradise and Shirin.
Forough Farrokhzad's The House is Black
Ramin Bahrani's Goodbye Solo (Iranian diaspora, but a great movie)
Bahman Ghobadi's A Time For Drunken Horses
and Turtles Can Fly

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 12:23:47 2012 No.3039597 Violence. Submission. Ignorance. Delusion.

Anonymous Sun Oct 7 12:26:42 2012 No.3039602

>>3037092
>fanaticism situation is much worse in countries like Pakistan and (obviously) Iraq/Afghanistan

The countries that America has bombed the shit out of or at least embarrassed on the international stage are the most fanatical? What a surprise.

good job, war on terror.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 18:22:50 2012 No.3040452 >>3039518 Thanks bro

Anonymous Sun Oct 7 18:37:44 2012 No.3040509

Related.

http://butdoesitfloat.com/Echo-of-the-Word
http://butdoesitfloat.com/People-are-so-alienated-from-their-own-soul-that-when-they-meet-their
butdoesitfloat.com/The-Maze-of-No-Emergence
http://butdoesitfloat.com/It-is-easier-for-me-to-see-everything-as-one-thing-than-to-see-one

http://butdoesitfloat.com/The-thing-I-don-t-understand-is-why-so-often-one-hears-discussion-of

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 18:38:44 2012 No.3040513 >>3039602 We bombed the shit out of Afghanistan because they fucked with us first.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 18:49:10 2012 No.3040546 >>3040513 We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq to a catch a Saudi Arabian found in Pakistan. C'mon, man.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 19:49:12 2012 No.3040699 >>3040546 He was found in Pakistan because the Taliban and al-Qaeda got their shit pushed in in Afghanistan, forcing al-Qaeda to move across the border into neighboring Pakistan.

Anonymous Sun Oct 7 20:07:23 2012 No.3040754
File: 293 KB, 1920x1080, 1325906399832.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Make sure to use either the Yusuf Ali or M. Pickthall translations of the Qur'an, they are by far the best.

If your interested in Islamic eschatology and epistemology, listen to lectures by Imran Hosein, he's noting short of amazing. He's also a scholar of geopolitics and international economics, and used a combination of this and Islamic eschatology to predict the recent so called arab 'uprisings' back in 2003.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nR7-Cmszpo

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 20:09:23 2012 No.3040755 >>3040699 lmao what? the taliban are hardly getting their "shit pushed", and the USA is promoting islamism/al queda throughout the rest of the middle east.

Anonymous Sun Oct 7 20:13:23 2012 No.3040766

>>3040699

The Taliban and Al Qaeda are two separate organizations with two different ideologies. The Taliban are Hanafi, Al Qaeda are Salafi. The Afghan Taliban is in no way related to the Taliban in Pakistan (actually called Tehrik e Talban or TTP) though the media never differentiate between the two.

>The Afghan Taliban offered to hand over Osama bin Laden to the international community if proof was produced he was behind the attacks. The Americans rejected that offer

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5

Moreover, It's doubtful Bin laden was behind the 9/11 attacks. If you want to know who was behind the attacks, you simply need to find out who benefited the most from them.

>Israeli PM Netanyahu says 9/11 terror attacks good for Israel

http://www.haaretz.com/news/report-netanyahu-says-9-11-terror-attacks-good-for-israel-1.244044

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 20:15:23 2012 No.3040773 >>3040755 100% correct. Al Qaeda are nothing more than a NATO front, as can be witnessed by NATO's use of them in Libya and Syria.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 20:23:26 2012 No.3040790 File: 89 KB, 796x574, pol.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3039597 >NAHN ELEVEN

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 20:26:26 2012 No.3040795 File: 11 KB, 202x249, ahahaha.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3040513 >Genuinely believes Afghanistan and Iraq attacked the US

Anonymous Sun Oct 7 20:27:26 2012 No.3040796

>>3040754
>Make sure to use either the Yusuf Ali or M. Pickthall translations of the Qur'an, they are by far the best.

I like Arberry's myself, it sort of approximates the style of the original. Lots of translations try to be King James-y... I think Pickthall is sort of guilty of this.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 20:29:26 2012 No.3040806 File: 135 KB, 751x284, ee_cummings.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] "i carry your heart with me(i carry it in my heart)"

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 20:43:26 2012 No.3040850 17 yr. old Muslim reporting in. Come from a sunni/Sufi background, but my family's pretty chilled about everything. Any questions anyone? I'm also from Australia, so no "hurr durr y u blow up towas 4" please.

Anonymous Sun Oct 7 23:07:08 2012 No.3041229

>>3040795
I never once mentioned Iraq so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up. But Afghanistan is where bin Laden was based when the attack happened. Saudi Arabia said they wouldn't allow him back into the country, so the Taliban said he could establish camp in Afghanistan under their protection, which is why we went there. He was only found in Pakistan because al-Qaeda took such a beating in Afghanistan that they had to move across the border.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 23:17:47 2012 No.3041243 >Implying you have to be an amerifag to hate the second most destructive religion is history >Implying Islam is not an incredible pile of trash that can only be deemed decent if you use the Koran as a guideline >mfw OP is looking for good in religion

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 23:21:47 2012 No.3041255 >>3041229 Wow, you are delusional as fuck. Not even the guy you are talking with.

>>	Anonymous Sun Oct 7 23:31:55 2012 No.3041277 >>3041243 >>>/ratheism >>>/highschool/

Anonymous Sun Oct 7 23:44:21 2012 No.3041297

What can anyone tell me about Islam and exclusivism?

The possibility of salvation for the "other believes in the book" (Jews and Christians) is affirmed someplace in the Koran, right? What about everyone else?

Do some Islamic scholars and clerics have their own versions of "invincible ignorance" and "anonymous Christians?"

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 00:42:26 2012 No.3041387

>>3041297
As far as I know, hell isn't eternal in islamic theology. You can only commit a finite amount if sins in your life, and you'll be judged and punished accordingly. That being said, it is believed that gods message has gone to all people's if the world at all times in history in some way or another, whether it be Islam or Christianity or Judaism, and so there's not really any such thing as "invincible ignorance".

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 00:46:26 2012 No.3041390

>>3041387
People's of the world*
Fkn iPhones...

Also, I didn't mean that gods message is restricted to the three main religions, it's believed there were essentially hundreds or even thousands of messengers throughout history, though only 25 (I believe) were mentioned in the Quran.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 00:46:26 2012 No.3041391 >>3041255 If I'm wrong then correct me.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 01:32:37 2012 No.3041455

Alright, I got a question for the muslims.

The Catholic Church is by its own admission under attack from moral relativism. What was once an absolute is no longer, and the authority of even the bible is undermined.

Now I know all about the verse of the sword, the hadith regarding taqiyya, the beheading of the jews of mecca etc. This stuff is all supposed to be (forgive the term) gospel to Muslims, that they should believe in and follow without question, and of course some do as the world wide conflict points between the cultures show.

My question is, to what extent is Islam, especially the liberal humanist set ("Americanized", Scandinavian, western eductated, etc) open to moral relativism and disection of the text. Furthermore, is it possible for Muslims to do the equivalent of saying "Yeah Leviticus tells us not to eat sole or wear mixed fibers, but fuck that shit they were ancient farmers, lets ignore it".

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 01:44:37 2012 No.3041467 >>3041455 Catholics never gave the Bible too much authority in the first place.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 01:45:38 2012 No.3041470

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?sz0avzl8wc5srcz
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?gz5conx5a4yl8wa
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?y9ydqqi81yygcr9
The Venture of Islam in PDF

http://www.mediafire.com/?1n5d7t844rx8c56
After the Prophet: The Story of the Sunni-Shia Split - Epub

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?45kfkaae6jyi8e0
The Great Arab Conquests in PDF

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 01:50:37 2012 No.3041478

>>3041455
First off, sword verse, taqiyya, beheading of jews are not "gospel" that should be followed without question. There's no problem with questioning, at least from my perspective and from the perspective of my community, though of course others feel differently.

There's something called the usul-al-fiqh, which anyone interested in Islam should look into, which basically teaches people to take islamic teachings with a pinch of salt. It focuses on context, purpose, and the meaning behind teachings and verses. I guess this is effectively a form of moral relativism.

So, with the Leviticus situation, it would instead be "Well, he's told us to not eat sole or wear mixed fibres, but that was because so and so..." and if the scholars can come to a consensus that, for example, it doesn't really apply literally to us, but rather we should take the purpose of that statement and apply it to our situation, then that would happen ideally.

Unfortunately, the outspoken, radical minority have managed to convince a lot of people that this approach is not Islamic, and so usul scholars are usually discredited or ignored by youth, developing into the problems we have today.

That good enough for ya?

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 01:51:37 2012 No.3041480

>>3041391
He went to Pakistan because their military intelligence set him up with a compound and found him useful as an asset, same as the Taliban. The only difference between Pakistan and Afghanistan is that Afghanistan has easily exploitable mineral rights and Pakistan has nuclear weapons. The US would never launch a war to find one man, and stay there for so long to "bring democracy" or whatever the fuck they want to say. My current idea about the afghani war is that the US is using Afghanistan as live fire training for its soldiers and testing for its new military tech, against the only population that can put up a proper fight while still having no iphones to catch the action on.

BTW, the Taliban have hardly had their shit pushed in, they have been running a successful guerrilla against the worlds most powerful military machine for more than a decade at this point, which has radicalized the muslim world, and dragged the US into monstrous debt that may well cause a massive collapse in govt services soon. Your beliefs are very, very misplaced, and you seem to be getting your news from CNN.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 01:53:40 2012 No.3041482

>>3041478

Yes, but for the sake of argument, sura 9:5 is pretty clear on what it wants done, and abrogates the earlier versus of peace towards thy neighbor, and I was under the impression that the Koran is considered the exact word of God that doesnt allow for leeway like the Bible.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 01:57:00 2012 No.3041489 File: 115 KB, 533x800, the jews.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3040766 >Moreover, It's doubtful Bin laden was behind the 9/11 attacks. a-hurr

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 02:23:34 2012 No.3041517

>>3041482
That's true, but that verse is in reference to an actual war taking place at the time of its revelation. It doesn't really apply to anyone anywhere other than the soldiers in that actual war, at least on a literal scale.

If anything, Islam recognizes that there's a difference between times of peace and times of war. In times of war, it's probably not particularly practical to be completely peaceful and submissive to your neighbor who is actively trying to kill you and your religion, and so it's religiously acceptable to do what you need to do to protect yourself and your family.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 02:27:39 2012 No.3041522

>>3041482
And also, forgot to say, the Quran is considered the exact word of God, but we're not naive enough to believe that any single one of us completely understands the word of God, or at least the majority of us aren't. So rather than leeway, we have a system of different interpretations to work through issues.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 08:39:39 2012 No.3041881 >>3040509 This post is good and you should feel good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 09:07:15 2012 No.3041911 >>3036662 the one in Iran? Not very. Shia vs Muslims etc

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 09:45:43 2012 No.3041950 Islam is like christianity, only 500 years behind. They're equally shitty though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 10:50:38 2012 No.3041990 >>3041950 Lol, I am willing to bet a few hundred dollars on you being a murikan

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 10:53:38 2012 No.3041995

I dislike Islam(ic culture) because I perceive it as a threat, but it's pretty god tier fascism with it's religious golden lie and all. It makes for a pretty strong and vital culture. Too bad for them it's mostly limited to Arabs and the like. Germanic Europeans and East Aryans would make for great islamists.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 10:54:38 2012 No.3041996 >>3040509 This blog/website is pretty awesome.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 11:12:02 2012 No.3042018

>>3041517
The war going on at the time was continued for another 100 years against a variety of peoples (byzantines, persians, andalusians, vandals, sicillians, aryans in the western subcontinent, etc) and frankly never seemed to stop, up to the siege of vienna in 1683.

Gotta be honest, im not a guy who looks at 9/11 to define islam, but i do see this as indicative:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBNPStCb6Uo

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 11:18:34 2012 No.3042028

>>3042018
Not Islamic but I feel for anyone who hates America and tries to oppose them.

Shame it has to be through religion. It's just a religious leader exploiting people and will only damage their own religion and not America in the long, That said, I think the 2008 financial crisis and the subsequent US debt crises is really telling considering that Osama bin Laden stated that his goal was to bankrupt the USA.

Maybe it religiously motivated terrorism is effective?

I don't know. I'm just a Lacanian-Marxist.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 11:24:32 2012 No.3042036 >>3041995 >East Aryans ...As in the northern part of the Indian subcontinent? An enormous number of them are Muslims.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 11:25:32 2012 No.3042039 >>3042028 I am no fan of american foreign policy, but I have a feeling that this guy would have no problems supporting a muslim uprising in Paris, Berlin, Stockholm, Zurich, etc

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 11:26:33 2012 No.3042042 >>3042028 Furthermore, as a self identifying marxist, i have a feeling you would be... unsatisfied in a Muslim theocracy won by conquest.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 11:32:32 2012 No.3042055

>>3042018
>The war going on at the time was continued for another 100 years against a variety of peoples (byzantines, persians, andalusians, vandals, sicillians, aryans in the western subcontinent, etc) and frankly never seemed to stop

That's because war was the default condition of international relations everywhere until the 19th century or so. There's no central planning committee in Islam that has been directing some sort of concerted "global jihad" on hundreds of fronts for the past ~1400 years.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 11:35:32 2012 No.3042061

>>3042055
No and thats what makes it worse than regular war. Its not like oh, Louis XIV wants to conquer the southern Netherlands and exert control over Alsace and the Duchy of Lorraine. Its a thousand years of conquest driven by religious imperative. I wish no one ill will, but as someone who believes in humanism, I think that mankind would be best served by keeping Islam fragmented into different political entities.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 11:47:31 2012 No.3042086 >>3040850 Please leave my country, shitskin. You're ruining it. >>3036890 >Islamic studies guy here, HAHAHAHAHAHA. Holy fuck, that's funny. What a loser.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 11:57:40 2012 No.3042104

>>3042061
>Its a thousand years of conquest driven by religious imperative

The fact that these people were Muslims and often publicly used religious terminology in order to justify their conquests doesn't mean that we can reduce all of the motivations of every Muslim conqueror in history to "religious imperitive." That's just silly. Even Timur, whose conquests were mostly directed against his coreligionists, cast himself as a devout Muslim.

As for the example you brought up... you don't think that Protestant-hating Louis "Divine Right of Kings" XIV felt that his war against the Calvinist Dutch had religious justification? Europeans were hardly any different.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 12:00:40 2012 No.3042110 >>3042086 >HAHAHAHAHAHA. Holy fuck, that's funny. What a loser. I know you're trolling and everything, but you have to be pretty much completely retarded to not know that area specialists and Arabic speakers are in high demand now.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 12:08:41 2012 No.3042129 >>3042110 >Arabic speakers are in high demand now. Keep telling yourself that will get you a job, idiot. How pathetic.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 12:08:41 2012 No.3042132

>>3042104
Fair enough, but Timurlane used it as his, the initial conquests of the caliphate used the same, the Ottoman Turks used the same, the Abbasids the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMY2YV9WucY

5:10 for Timur's reasons for the conquest of India.

Also, For all of the religious overtones of the war of the spanish succession, consider also that in the 30 years war france was in deep with the swedes, and in the 7 years war Frederick pretty much allied with anyone who would have him.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 12:09:40 2012 No.3042134 >>3042129 Eh, white Arab speakers are actively recruited by oil companies and US intelligence where I'm from. You are pretty wrong.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 12:13:12 2012 No.3042143 >>3040850 get the fuck out of australia

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 12:15:11 2012 No.3042148 >>3042129 Is it national asspain day in Australia or something?

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 12:28:05 2012 No.3042178

>>3042132
>Fair enough, but Timurlane used it as his, the initial conquests of the caliphate used the same, the Ottoman Turks used the same, the Abbasids the same.

Right, sure. I just don't understand what's supposed to be extraordinary about this particular religion's conquerors speaking about their conquests in religious terms. It was and to a large extent remains a rather common practice everywhere... have you read the Song of Roland?

>Also, For all of the religious overtones of the war of the spanish succession, consider also that in the 30 years war france was in deep with the swedes, and in the 7 years war Frederick pretty much allied with anyone who would have him.

Of course, the motivations for every war are several and are never as simple as "take over the infidels." That's the point I've been trying to make. You recognize this in the Europeans' case but you seem unwilling to see that the religious overtones of most Muslim conquests were precisely that -- overtones. Only in the caliphate's earliest days and maybe a few anomalous cases since then can we plausibly even begin to consider religious piety as the primary motivator for conquest. It remained important in many cases, of course, but we're all aware that most "holy wars" aren't very holy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 12:30:05 2012 No.3042181 >>3042148 Every day. EVERY DAY.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 12:32:05 2012 No.3042185 Muslim art is shit. It's all really ugly patterns that look like 1960s british wallpaper.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 13:13:34 2012 No.3042295

>>3042178
Look, you can paint pre-enlightenment western examples all you want. The fact is, the EU leadership does not have the mindset of Charlemagne and Roland anymore, whereas the Muslim street is if anything more radicalized than they were during the Baghdad renaissance. Islamic culture is stuck in a mindset of ignorance and violence.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 17:12:53 2012 No.3042921

>>3042295
I guess I kind of agree with you, but I wouldn't say it's Islamic culture that's stuck in that mindset. In fact there isnt really any such thing as an "Islamic culture" anyway. It's more, believe it or not, a radical, outspoken minority who the media and governments around the world have decided are representative of all Muslims. The majority of us really couldn't give a shit.

Anonymous Mon Oct 8 17:32:03 2012 No.3042976

>>3042295
>Look, you can paint pre-enlightenment western examples all you want. The fact is, the EU leadership does not have the mindset of Charlemagne and Roland anymore

I don't think anyone has disagreed with that...

>whereas the Muslim street is if anything more radicalized than they were during the Baghdad renaissance.

That wouldn't be a very useful comparison even if it were possible. Radicalism in the Islamic world today is at its roots an ongoing reaction to 'modernity', colonialism, and a whole host of other political and ideological realities that weren't present in 'Abbasid-era Baghdad.

>Islamic culture

Which one...? I think one of the problems here is that you're approaching a multiform religion/civilization as if it's monolithic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Oct 8 22:24:01 2012 No.3043772 It's too bad a good thread was inevitably destroyed by "hurr mudslimes, naht muh heritage" types

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 11:42:40 2012 No.3044666 Islam is one of the religions which leads to enlightenment.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 11:47:17 2012 No.3044673 >>3036691 Early monastic Christians had the kind of idea of God as Absolute and Logos as the way we experience God. Reminds me of the beginning of the Tao Te Ching.

Anonymous Tue Oct 9 11:50:17 2012 No.3044677
File: 274 KB, 750x838, arabic_calligraphy_butdoesitfloat_18_905.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>3044666
Islam is non-dualist too by the way. It's metaphysics is more like buddhism mixed with neo platonism, not like christianity. Our world is like a flux, as in heraclitus and buddhism, constantly coming into and going out of being, the constant manifestation of Allah, all is his action, constantly creating each moment anew. The difference between subject and object is illusory, and there is, once the veils are lifted, only Allah.

It is quite annoying to see it lumped with christianity and judaism.

Anonymous Tue Oct 9 19:08:14 2012 No.3045634 [DELETED]

File: 210 KB, 960x720, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I was raised Muslim but I sorta diverted because I wanted to devirgin American girls. Thank god they are so slutty, thx Americans for making your daughters and mothers feel worthless and ashamed- we niggers all appreciate it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 19:14:00 2012 No.3045651 The architecture is pretty and is the origin of cloisters.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 19:20:25 2012 No.3045669 >>3045634 [spoilers]>>>/b/[/spoiler]

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 19:29:24 2012 No.3045683 >>3044677 all three religions worship the god of abraham.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 19:33:34 2012 No.3045690 >>3044666 I'm reporting you to Saudi Arabia's anti-witchcraft task force for necromancing this thread.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 19:36:33 2012 No.3045695 >>3045683 Recognition of the same prophets != similar theologies or cosmologies or anything else.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 19:38:33 2012 No.3045699 >>3045695 >>3044677 Wait, wait. Under which definition of "non-dualism" do you file Islam?

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 20:03:17 2012 No.3045742 File: 16 KB, 240x251, 1320283586734.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>3044666 >>3044677 I like you.

>>	Anonymous Tue Oct 9 23:07:03 2012 No.3046140 What's the best translation for Rumi's poetry?

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 10 01:31:51 2012 No.3046431 >>3046140 Chittick, Nicholson, Arberry. Here's an article from a Mevlevi site discussing Rumi translations: http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/corrections_popular.html#The%20Difference

Anonymous Wed Oct 10 01:51:15 2012 No.3046459
File: 32 KB, 450x360, 1349585218729.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

A group of Muslim men were handing out free Korans at my community college a few days back.
I asked for one, not knowing that I would end up being forced to listen to some kooky Muslim chatter on and on about the wonders of Islam for nearly an entire hour.
> I'm too agreeable with people to interrupt them and walk away, I just nod and smile to anything they say.
He said several ridiculous things and kept trying to proselytize me. And throughout the entire diatribe he assured me that everything in Islam was reasonable, not arbitrary, and that is was certified by scientific fact.
At the end of it all I thought I'd ask him if I had to be circumcised to be Muslim just to test him.
He said that I should definitely get circumcised right away because the Koran says to and otherwise you're ten times as likely to contract terrible diseases which will lead to your ENTIRE penis being cut off. Better to lose a "useless flap of skin" than your entire penis. And besides, being circumcised makes your penis look bigger, so it's a win-win situation for everyone.
> All of my nope.

Incredibly cheerful guy but he kept twitching and violently blinking involuntarily and I generally felt very strange around him. Especially when he said he didn't know what he'd be like if he didn't have Islamic morals to define his actions and guide his life. It always worries me when I realize that for some people the only thing really keeping them from mugging me or raping my sister is the threat of eternal damnation.

> TL;DR talked with a Muslim expecting to have my media-saturated Western mind blown apart by the unveiling of a misunderstood and poignant oriental religion. Unfortunately came away from the conversation being even more creeped out by Muslims and thinking that it's probably the worst of all major world religions.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 10 01:58:15 2012 No.3046470 >>3046459 He's a proselyte, dude. What the hell did you expect? Jehovah's Witnesses are batshit crazy too, I'm not using them to judge every fucking Christian there is.

Anonymous Wed Oct 10 02:17:33 2012 No.3046512

>>3046470
I'm not judging every Muslim based off of this one Muslim proselyte.
But I've come across Hindu proselytes who are, on average, much more agreeable and intelligent as opposed to belligerent and brainwashed. Again, not judging all Hindus based on the proselytes I've met. . . but if there's a general pattern I'd warrant that it might have something to do with the character of the religion.
I mean, saying, "Well, I'm sure not everyone of that religion believes that/are like that," can only take me so far... Not every Christian sect believes all non-Christians are going to burn in Hell for all eternity, but enough do to make that a justifiable aspect of the Christian philosophy and character.
I'm definitely not saying that all Muslims are as dumb as the guy I met, but as a religion (not including the mystical/Sufi aspects) it just seems. . . pretty meh.

Islam just comes off as a poorly written fanfiction of Judaism/Christianity. Like the kids who write themselves into Adventure Time episodes and say, OH YEAH, Finn and Jake have another friend, ME, and we all go on adventures together and etc. I was hoping meeting this guy would change my mind, but it really didn't, especially when he tried to appeal to me by reading passages from the Koran which talked about Jesus praising Allah and everything.

> TL;DR not saying all Muslims are crazy, just saying that Islam is a shitty religion, lol.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 10 02:57:47 2012 No.3046599 >>3046470 > Jehovah's Witnesses > Christian Christ on a stick, pick only one!

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 10 19:57:48 2012 No.3048018 >>3046512 There were good recommendations for dispelling the 'Islam is a shitty religion' idea posted earlier in the thread.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 10 20:08:47 2012 No.3048036 >>3046512 Wish I've met the Hindus you've met because the ones I've dealt with have been extremely ignorant while the Muslims were laid back and westernized. This is in America, could be different elsewhere.

Anonymous Wed Oct 10 20:13:46 2012 No.3048042

>>3048036
Hindus I've met have all been stinky, loud and generally inconsiderate.

10 of them living in a house, yelling at each other at 3am instead of speaking like civilised human beings, and with no sense of hygiene; they will just throw things out the window or in the rough vicinity of a bin, instead of actually putting things in the garbage bin outside.

They come to this country and look down on us, even though they came from a country where its normal to shit in the street.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 10 20:15:46 2012 No.3048044 >>3045699 In that there is no distinction between subject and object.

Anonymous Wed Oct 10 20:31:42 2012 No.3048061

>>3048042
Interesting. There's a Hindu family that lives down at the end of my street and they're very nice people. Most of the time they're in their garden tending to their plants or drinking tea on their patio. Every once in a while I'll see them walking to and from the nearby shopping center, or the woman will be outside sweeping. That's about it. I've never heard any yelling at any time of the day and they keep their yard and the sidewalk in front of their house very tidy.

A bit unfortunate that they've had cars crash into their fence twice.

Anonymous Wed Oct 10 20:35:34 2012 No.3048070

>>3048036
>>3048042
All the hindu male exchange students at my university are fucking assholes with no sense of common courtesy. I've really come to dislike Indians based on my experience. I'm just restricting this to males. They seem to be really fucking dumb.

Seriously, fuck them.

Muslims are cool, I study in their library. Also, I have a fetish for modest hijab wearing muslim girls.

>>	Anonymous Wed Oct 10 20:55:37 2012 No.3048096 >>3048070 What about Punjabis? They're pretty chill.

Anonymous Wed Oct 10 21:22:00 2012 No.3048128

>>3036600
Tabatabaei

look him up
my dad gave me one of his works
and it seriously made me fall in love with the philosophy of shia islam
as well learn from imam Ali by reading the nahjool al balagha
he is known for having an amazing pholosophy that is studied in universities world wide

Anonymous Wed Oct 10 21:24:00 2012 No.3048131

>>3048070
I think it may be the fact that most indians who come to australia are peasants, literally. Poor people with no sense of refinement or culture, the dregs of their society trying to get out by any means. Notice how common the surname patel is? It's because it denotes that the person belongs to the peasant/shudra caste.

Plebs.

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]

/lit/ - Literature