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/lit/ - Literature

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3028023 No.3028023[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Does moral progress exist?

>> No.3028026

Of course.
Next.

>> No.3028027

>>3028023
no, but regress does.

>> No.3028029

>>3028026
would be nice if you provided some arguments too

>> No.3028039

>>3028023
a child is born without any morals or ethics. it is first introduced by parents or other authorities. then it's up to the individual what to do with it, progress or regress.

>> No.3028045

>>3028039
>a child is born without any morals or ethics
[citation needed]

>> No.3028046

>>3028039
No problem with the progress and regress thing but the first part, "a child is born without morals or ethics" seems inmediatly refutable unles you define morals as something given by society, in advance, and that is circular reasoning. there are born sociopaths and there's the rest with sufficiently similar moral standards imprinted genetically. The rest is given within the frame of society.

>> No.3028051

>>3028046
that's basically what i was saying. although, do you have any examples on

>there are born sociopaths
and
>moral standards imprinted genetically

>> No.3028059

i'm waiting for the nietzscheians to chime in on how morality depends on power

or the hume-ists to explain why we can't into ethics

>> No.3028066

>>3028059
>no spinoza

stay pleb

>> No.3028181

>>3028051
Most animals don't kill each other although no one taught them morals.

>> No.3028192

>>3028181

My dog killed a mouse yesterday.

And robins fight to the death.

Dolphins kill porpoises for kicks. Orcas eat baby whales' tongues for the evulz. Chimps and other primates kill all the things.

>> No.3028196

>>3028023
no. only decay

>> No.3028214

>>3028181
grass eaters surely don't kill each other. meat eaters on the other hand...

and would you even try to kill an elephant or a rhino if you were a cheetah? they are 5 times the size of you and more intimidating. that's just silly now.

>moral standards imprinted genetically in animals
>imprinted
sounds retarded anyway.

also
>no one taught them morals.
no one knows. do you understand the language of tigers or pterodactyls?

>> No.3028217
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3028217

>>3028214
>grass eaters surely don't kill each other

Hippoptotatamotamuses kill the FUCK out of each other, and the babies die all the time because basically hippos are proper radge cunts.

>> No.3028219

>>3028214
>grass eaters surely don't kill each other.
Of course they do.

>> No.3028307

>>3028214
Who told you that the animal kingdom is some sort of Disney utopia?

>> No.3028317

>>3028039
>2012
>still believing in tabula rasa theory

>> No.3028326

http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Morality-Life-Mind-Philosophical/dp/0262600722

Everyone needs to do themselves a favor and read this book

>> No.3028330

it is and it isn't. depends on where you look. whether in the ocean or forests some animals work together for mutual beneifit. some besides man even play.

but there is predator and prey. but predators don't generally kill for sport, nor kill when they're not hungry unless it's something generally territorial.

i'm not crazy about dark idealizations of how brutal and dog-eat-dog wildlife are. i mean, it's true but it's also untrue. depends on where you look.

>> No.3028335

oops

>>3028330
response to this
>>3028307

>> No.3028342

>>3028023
Well, you can adopt a certain moral ideal. And sometimes the flux of it all might lead to people's behaviour getting closer to your ideal. So in that sense, it does. Like seeing a branch floating in the river and it bumping against the debris of your choice.

>> No.3028341
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3028341

>>3028066

>> No.3028345

>>3028326
>evo-psych

i'm not sure if the pseudo-science of today is better or worse than the pseudo-science of yesteryear

i can't wait for the evo-psych hype train to derail, overheat, become abandoned and forgotten

>> No.3028348

>>3028345
What was the yesteryear one?

>> No.3028353

>>3028192
you misunderstood him, he means intra-species

eg: mice don't kill other mice

>> No.3028367

>>3028353

Well, hippos still kill the shit out of other hippos and robins still fight to the death, and my dog still killed a mouse then stood looking at it going "oi, Anon, I'm not eating this fucking thing, get rid of if and give me a jumbone or something".

>> No.3028368

>>3028348
examples: phrenology, vitalism, homours, maternal impression, etc

biology in particular is open to wild and fancy-free interpretation

this is why you often see the joke on /sci/ like
>>biology
>>science
>pick one

>> No.3028370

>>3028345
>i can't wait for the evo-psych hype train to derail, overheat, become abandoned and forgotten
It's a very useful "discipline" to captate for conservatives, I expect its rise to prominence.

>> No.3028375

>>3028353
Mice fucking eat eachother when push comes to shove.

>> No.3028376

>>3028367
i saw that and the other examples in this thread

does this happen in exceptional circumstances or is this a rule? the assertion breaks down across all kingdoms; mold, plants, plankton, etc, don't annihilate one another

>> No.3028377

>>3028345
dualist scum

>> No.3028378

>>3028353
well, pretty much all simians routinely kill each other.

>> No.3028381

>>3028370
>conservatives
>evolution

i would love to see the day, but also that is scary

>well, you see, the rich are rich because money is an adaptation; the rich are actually a different species than humans

>> No.3028386

Wait, if evolutionary psychology is pseudo-science, where do morals come from? Inb4 God.

>> No.3028387 [DELETED] 

>>3028378
i've never killed anyone in my life

>> No.3028388

>>3028376
I thought the general rule was than animals fuck each other up constantly. Lions killing cubs, chimps taking other chimps babies and eating their brain out (and waging warfare and tearing eachothers genitals of and such). Spiders practice post-coital cannibalism. There are snakes which are predominately snake eaters if I'm correct. Dolphins kidnap and gangrape eachother. There are gay necrophiliac ducks. The animal kingdom is as fucked up as we are, except we're smarter and better at reaping enormous carnage.

>> No.3028390

>>3028386
Pseudo-science can be babby science, like alchemy. Maybe they'll figure it out once.

>> No.3028391

>>3028377
just because you're a non-dualist doesn't mean you have to accept evolutionary explanations

alternatives are available

eg neurology

>> No.3028395

>>3028388
you didn't get my point

the rules breaks down across kingdoms. mold, plants.

>> No.3028397

>>3028386
>somethingsomething cultural evolution by selection of morals that benefit a paticular society
Anyone who doesn't think that genetics plays a role, even a small but indispensable one, is fooling themselves

>> No.3028401

>>3028388
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals

>> No.3028403

>>3028391
>neurology
'neurology' is not an explanation but a description

>> No.3028411

>>3028376
>does this happen in exceptional circumstances or is this a rule?
Depends on the species. I think mice actually need to be pushed by circumstances to fight among themselves, but rhinos and hippos are just naturally aggressive and violent against each other. Same goes for some apes.

>> No.3028421

>>3028403
Truth, and an explanation that goes hand to hand with evolutionary explanations

>> No.3028436

If the last entire forever of human history is any indication, I'd say no.

>> No.3028570

>>3028401
Of course they have that as well. As do humans. Both they're both parts of the whole. People have a tendency to romanticize nature in the sense of "wow sharks only kill for food harmony balance rainbows the circle of life gaia mother nature" while in reality the assholes kill a whole bunch of seals for the fuck of it when they already have plenty to eat. Other animals are just like humans, squandering beasts acting according to some form of life that functions well enough to stay in existence, but there's no reason to belief it's all pretty and perfect and harmonious. Life is continually in beta mode, something people tend to forget, even if they claim to subscribe to evolution theory.

>> No.3028679

As society moves forward morality changes (in order to benefit the function of society in some way). Does that count as progressing? Is progression a change that suggests something is greater than before or just different than before?