/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.2996323]

/tv/ was having a discussion yesterday which one of these gentlemen is the superior writer. I would like to see what /lit/ has to say.

[Anonymous No.2996325]

Tolkien.

Now go kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.2996327]

>>2996323
One is an Oxford professor and classic British author.

The other is a neckbeard who write pornoscripts for HBO shows.

But you'll like the second one, of course, because he's 'a fantastic storyteller'. (Excuse me a moment while I vomit.)

[Anonymous No.2996329]

Don't get me wrong, I love Martin, but honestly there's no discussion to be had here.

[Anonymous No.2996331]

It's like comparing silent era masterpieces with flashy modern blockbusters.

[Anonymous No.2996336]

>>2996331
>I like old shit am I smart yet guise?

[Anonymous No.2996337]

>>2996331
>implying that Tolkien still doesn't bust blocks.

[Anonymous No.2996335]

>>2996331
MFW the Hobbit is modern flashy blockbuster split into 3 parts just to milk it

[Anonymous No.2996338]

You can't even begin to compare the two. To do so would completely devalue everything Tolkien wrote. Martin writes raunchy LOTR fanfiction, that is it.

[Anonymous No.2996349]

.../lit/ has spoken. I wonder what /tv/ said.

[Anonymous No.2996355]

GM is better for a contemporary audience, if something with a similar tone to The Hobbit was released today it wouldn't be well received (and GM's also writing in a way that's influenced by TV so it translates better to film) but in terms of creativity and Genre-changing work Tolkein is infinitely superior.

[Anonymous No.2996356]

GRRM:
- better writer
- better storyteller
- actually has characters with human traits
- complex plot
- delicious food descriptions

Tolkien:
- Um....cultural and historical significance? I dunno, he sucks at everything else

[Anonymous No.2996364]

tolkien by a long shot. lotr is a borderline classic (in the literary sense). and i like grrm, for the record.

[Anonymous No.2996367]

>>2996356

[Franz !!8ZELb56UWUx No.2996368]

ASoFaI seems to exhibit better writing, but I think Tolkien was the more innovative one.

[Anonymous No.2996370]

>>2996356
>>>/tv/

[Anonymous No.2996396]

They set out to be very different things...

Also

>implying ASOIAF won't be an unfinished mess for all eternity

[Anonymous No.2996410]

Not a bad word uttered on George R R Martin before the TV series was aired

stay mad, lit

[Anonymous No.2996415]

Tolkien wasn't at all a good writer though, was he? He created a wonderful fantasy world and entire languages but the plot of his stories were pretty uninspired.

[Anonymous No.2996419]

Tolkein is far superior. Even totally ignoring LotR, Tolkein's essays, letters, short storys, and other novels are far superior. Highly lauded English professor vs a guy who writes about incest for a living. Though, Tolkein's incest was better.

[Anonymous No.2996423]

[Anonymous No.2996424]

I don't really understand why GRRM is regarded as at least a great story writer.
The plot doesn't feel more advanced than a medieval soap opera. There's no pacing in the story. And when a sub-story gets stuck he just stalls it until another character conveniently appears.
Tolkien is of course not the greatest writer ever but he could still describe more than food and blood.

[Anonymous No.2996427]

Even GRRM would admit that Tolkien is superior to him.

[Anonymous No.2996426]

>>2996410

But during that time Dance came out and confirmed everyone's worst suspicions.

[Anonymous No.2996428]

>>2996323

George RR Martin is like the male EL James.
Wrote some LOTR fanfic and got lucky.

[Anonymous No.2996432]

ITT insecure americans can't find better agruments against GRRM other than "baaaw he wrote bout secks thats so unklassy 2 me!"

[Anonymous No.2996433]

>>2996424

oh and describe tolkein did. tedious detail about a fucking round door.

[Anonymous No.2996452]

>>2996415
> but the plot of his stories were pretty uninspired.

That was wholly intentional. He was specifically trying to recreate pre-literate epics.

[Anonymous No.2996480]

>>2996415
>Tolkien wasn't at all a good writer though, was he? He created a wonderful fantasy world and entire languages but the plot of his stories were pretty uninspired.

That's right. Writing is about plot! The more plot, the better the writing.

[Anonymous No.2996481]

>>2996327

You might just be the biggest cunt I've ever seen in all my years of browsing 4chan.

Astounding work, old chap.

[Anonymous No.2996488]

I don't see how anyone could argue that the characters in GRRM's work aren't more human than the ones in Tolkien's.

[Anonymous No.2996489]

>>2996432
>ITT insecure americans can't find better agruments against GRRM other than "baaaw he wrote bout secks thats so unklassy 2 me!"

Considering Tolkien is English and Martin is American, it is unlikely insecure Americans would stump for Tolkien on purely patriotic grounds.

[Anonymous No.2996502]

>>2996488 the characters in GRRM's work are more human

Hard to argue, as Tolkien wrote about elves and hobbits a lot.

[Anonymous No.2996513]

at least tolkien never sucked a black guys dick in a denny's mens room in the eighties

[Anonymous No.2996718]

Wow, totally on topic argument...

Gay interracial sex makes you worse writer. Scientifically proven by the nazis, I suppose.

[Anonymous No.2996728]

>>2996513
tell me more

[Anonymous No.2996729]

>>2996513
Who drew that pic of Zack Galifinikas?

[Anonymous No.2996732]

>>2996502
Technically, hobbits are human.

[Anonymous No.2996739]

Anyone else starting to get sick of 15 year olds coming from /v/ and /tv/ wanting to talk about the one author they've read a book by (GRRM) and then getting upset when no one wants to discuss their stupid juvenile fantasy escapist garbage with them?

[Anonymous No.2996759]

>>2996739
> implying 21-year-olds don't do the same with Joyce, Faulner, McCarthy or whatever other 'patrician' author happens to be on their sophomore curriculum this week

[Anonymous No.2996797]

>>2996327
I preferred GRRM, but I'd agree Tolkien is a better writer. However neither are in anyway amazing.

[Anonymous No.2996809]

>>2996759
>nobody talks about my favorite authors and when I try people make fun of my thread or don't respond and these old fogeys get action every day

[Anonymous No.2996855]

>>2996809

It's not about 'old fogeys'.

The suspicious fact of the matter is that /lit/-'patricians' somehow only ever talk about exactly those authors which happen to be on a college liberal-arts curriculum.

Also, these selfsame 'patricians' only ever voice conventional accepted opinion, the kind that would be found listening to a college lecture.

Kinda makes you think, doesn't it?

[Anonymous No.2996869]

>>2996855
But "old fogeys" pretty much sums up both
>The suspicious fact of the matter is that /lit/-'patricians' somehow only ever talk about exactly those authors which happen to be on a college liberal-arts curriculum.
and
>Faulkner, Joyce, McCarthy

And yeah, it's full of pretentious college kids. I'm one too, I just read literature, I don't study it.
You a fan of Vollman? I've been eating up his non-fiction, but all I've read of his fiction was a short novel called Whores For Gloria. I'm not sure how often he gets tossed into literature classes, but he's sure as hell not discussed here.

[Anonymous No.2996874]

>>2996855
not really. obviously it's going to be easier to get a discussion going, no matter how perfunctory, on the subject of authors who are widely read in school or college. the fewer readers an author has, the less likely it is that you'll be able to find anyone to discuss him with. that's why i am in favour of "/lit/core", it encourages us all to read the same books, which gives us all something in common to chat about.

[Anonymous No.2996876]

>>2996869
Europe Central is a great book. It was first recommended to me by some guy on /lit/, as it goes.

[Anonymous No.2996878]

>>2996874
Your solution is to homogenize the tastes of this board further?

[Anonymous No.2996885]

troll thread

[Anonymous No.2996902]

>>2996878
yes. although i'd like it if we moved on from the usual suspects like faulkner, dosto, hemingway, etc. before we start the homogenisation process.

[Anonymous No.2996907]

>>2996902

[Anonymous No.2996908]

One smokes a pipe, the other smokes cock.

[Anonymous No.2996935]

if it weren't for tolkien there would be no martin. think about that shit. j.r.r. tolkien and g.r.r. martin. martin even stole how the dude writes his name with that "r.r." bullshit. don't get me started.

but for serious. tolkien's world has a staggering obsessive amount of history that he created for it. even today it's unmatched. some little bitches don't like that shit but what do little bitches know? exactly.

[sage No.2996963]

>Writing, story and characters:
GRRM


>Originality, creativity and atmosphere:
Tolkien

[Anonymous No.2996980]

Personally i think Tolkien was a much more descriptive writer, absorbing you in the atmosphere of the adventure. Martin tends to be more descriptive with the characters absorbing you into the relationships with them

[Anonymous No.2996990]

GRRM has gone full retard.

[Anonymous No.2996997]

itt: people argue powerlevels much as 8 year olds would argue over who would beat who in a fight

So what'll it be, /lit/: Goku, or Broly?

[Anonymous No.2997028]

Read The Silmarillion and Martin will be unreadable afterward for its immaturity.

[Anonymous No.2997034]

>>2996997
is that even a question?
goku

[Anonymous No.2997038]

>>2996997
>>2996997
In power? Goku is the protagonist, he always has the highest power. Assuming he could die, Broly would easily overpower him. But if youre gonna put them in a fight, power doesnt count that much:

>mass of muscles
>only knows how to scream and roll eyes
>dont have technique, only brute stength

VS

>experienced martial arts fighter trained from childhood
>knows how to stay frosty on a fight and not get affected by emotions
>saved the universe dozens of times

You tell me.

[Anonymous No.2997039]

>>2997028
>A Dark Lord appears!
>Another Dark Lord appears!
>Huge trees with lamps on them!
>Big battles between racially segregated species!
>a few teensy towns scattered over whole continents!
>IT WAS ACTUALLY PREHISTORIC EARTH

yeah when I think Tolkien I think mature stories for mature people, definitely no kid could handle something so deep and insightful

if you want the Bible, then just read the Bible, anon.

[Anonymous No.2997042]

>>2996997
Broly. His power is maximum.

[Anonymous No.2997051]

Tolkien is better. Martin himself would acknowledge that.

[Anonymous No.2997058]

if tolkien were around, he would admit that martin is much better than him

[Anonymous No.2997071]

They who say GRRM is better got no business on this board, and brings the word "literature" to shame. Great question to separate the intellectuals from the stupid scum.

>>2996327
This guy is right. Deal fucking with it.

[Anonymous No.2997105]

Martin used to write for soap operas, and that explains a whooole fuck load of his appeal. He's still enjoyable to me, but there is a reason people get "addicted" to his books.

[Anonymous No.2997182]

>>2997039
If you want a soap opera, just watch daytime tv.

Also, go back to /tv/.

[Anonymous No.2997243]

Tolkien's better, but GRRM isn't nearly as bad as /lit/ says it is.
I wonder what a thread about ASOIAF was like before the series.

[Anonymous No.2997248]

Tolkien invented a fucking language.

[Anonymous No.2997249]

>>2996963
I agree.

GRRM's characters are so much more interesting and varied. It is enjoyable to watch how their relationships develop and I think GRRM does this better than Tolkein.

That being said, Tolkein was infinitely more original and his work, in my book, is a modern classic.

[Anonymous No.2997257]

They're both disgustingly overrated, though what Tolkien did is probably a good deal more impressive

[Anonymous No.2997267]

>>2997243
>I wonder what a thread about ASOIAF was like before the series.

Someone should actually check this
http://fuuka.warosu.org/lit/?task=search2&ghost=yes&search_text=ASOIAF&search_subject=&a
mp;search_username=&search_tripcode=&search_filename=&search_datefrom=&search_dateto
=2011-04-16&search_op=all&search_del=dontcare&search_int=dontcare&search_ord=new&amp
;search_res=op

[Anonymous No.2997285]

I personally don't like both.

But If I have to choose - Tolkein is much more bearable. I guess in his defense fiction literature in his day was dominated by scaremongering sci fi hacks who couldn't write a plot based story to save their lives.

So in a way even though his characters are two dimensional and annoying and even though the world he created is bland and boring it's a big step up from what was being written then, so it truly does hold some value.
Robert Howard is infinitely superior than both and was writing better fantasy decades before Tolkein, but I guess that's beyond the point itt.

[Anonymous No.2997291]

>>2997248
So did I when I was 8 years old.
Your point ?

[Anonymous No.2997322]

>>2996878

It's not about homogenizing tastes as much as it is about getting everyone to share a basic set of experience which can then be discussed and compared with when discussing other works.

[Anonymous No.2997324]

>>2997291

His is actually studied and used.

[Anonymous No.2997337]

>>2997324
So is Klingon.

[Anonymous No.2997343]

>>2997337
And the language from that Avatar movie about blue people, lol

[Anonymous No.2997361]

Tolkien but it's like comparing apples and oranges, Tolkien wasn't writing about cunts

[Anonymous No.2997399]

I think GRRM is better. I hate to say it for the LOTR fans out there, but Tolkien had a lot of problems in his writing.

Yes, he did write in the style of old epics, but the thing is that those stories were ONLY that. Martin managed two things that Tolkien never bothered with.

First, every character in a GRRM book has reasons for the stuff they do. They have backgrounds, they have something to fight for, and demons in their own lives that undercut them. And as such, the plots are much more believable -- everything is there for a reason, all the characters are behaving in normal human ways, and thus even if there is a twist, there's a reason for that twist.

Tolkien fell in love with the epic part of the story, and as such, his characters are cutouts. Why does Frodo even give a crap about the rest of the world? Why do the Ents decide to help? Why was Gandalf so willing to help, or Gimli so willing to go along? They seem to have very little in motivation beyond "the plot requires it". It's not very believable to have everyone there "just 'cause".

[Anonymous No.2997468]

>>2997399

I'm sure if Tolkien wanted to write seven 800 page volumes and fill them with that kind of tedium so people wouldn't have to form their own independent thoughts and opinions, he could have.

[Anonymous No.2997482]

Tolkien is so far superior it's not even funny. They're not even on the same playing field.

>>2997399
All of those questions have answers. What your point amounts to is "Tolkien didn't write in the realist, modernist, novelistic style that I am accustomed to and that GRRM wrote in. Therefore, GRRM is better." It's not the case; it's just a profound lack of imagination and understanding and taste on your part. Of course Tolkien's characters don't have motivations in the novelistic manner customary to modern realism, because Tolkien was not writing a modern realistic novel. That's not, in fact, a flaw of the work. It's your own limitations, not Tolkien's, that you're displaying here.

[Anonymous No.2997492]

>>2997468
but he did. "Frodo is good." "Orcs are evil." "Sauron is evil." "Wizards can be good or evil, but it's always their job to be good." "God very evidently created this world, but now the world is entrusted to man."

[Anonymous No.2997582]

>>2997399
>>2997399
Tolkien was at one point the world's leading scholar of epics, and was responsible for the essay that redefined how and why people around the world continue to read Beowulf. He was a man for whom writing was intrinsically bound up with literary tradition, and when he began myth-making in his own right it was inevitable he would bring the lessons of his education into play. The worlds of the Norse and Celtic and Irish epics, worlds whose peculiar values and realities were embraced and enhanced by Tolkien's vision, found their first truly universal realization in Middle Earth. It is here that Tolkien's real genius lies: only his compassionate touch could have so truthfully rendered the symbology of myth, could have invigorated and expanded legend into something that transcended the nature of ordinary fiction and gave real insight into the essence of the human soul. Tolkien understood that myths are the means by which human cultures are personified, and it was only by distilling myth itself that he could express humanity. Martin can motivate a man, but Tolkien set a universe in motion.

[Anonymous No.2997610]

>>2996323

Lord Of The Rings was adapted into 3 of the most expensive and successful movies of all time.
Game of Thrones was adapted into a shitty HBO TV series.

[Anonymous No.2997612]

>>2997582
Can you name/ link me to the essay?

[Anonymous No.2997618]

>>2997612
You mean Tolkien's Beowulf essay?

It's called "Beowulf: The Monsters and The Critics". It's pretty well know, I'm sure you can find it if you google around some. I don't have a link handy sorry.

[Anonymous No.2997624]

>>2997582

Pretty much this, with less words.

Tolkien wanted to create a mythology for England as he felt that a country without a mythology is culturally poor. He was primarily inspired by the Finnish Kalevala, but also Norse and Celtic myths were major inspirations.

Obviously he failed in creating a mythology for England, but he knew that himself well enough.

That being said, the reason I personally like Tolkien so much is because he, to me, is proof that writing, just like everything else in life, is not about luck, talent, innate abilities or whatever; it's about hard work. He didn't just sit down and created Middle-earth - he sat down and wrote, revised, tried and testet until he was satisfied.

Obviously other writers revise their own work too, but there's still the one-hit-wonder phenomenon in litterature just like there is in music and film.

[Anonymous No.2997628]

>>2997612

Read "On Fairy-Stories".

[Anonymous No.2997632]

>>2997249
My dear boy, try the children of hurin.

[Anonymous No.2997637]

>>2997618
Thanks very much, I'm interested in this stuff but not well versed.