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/lit/ - Literature

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2976996 No.2976996 [Reply] [Original]

Hey /lit/,

How would you construct a society that is free from the use of money and government?

>> No.2976999

Go ask the anarcho-communists.

>> No.2977004

>>2976996
so are you suggesting that a society without money must have anarchy and or be a communist country?

>> No.2977006

By having everyone live in a virtual world where there are minimal consequences for any actions. The real world is powered by [energy source] and no one is aware that the real world exists.

>> No.2977017

The society will have to be small. If you don't want to have to grow all of your crops yourself, you will need to establish a trade system based on textiles and food. The moment you start IOU's and have stones, or knots in string to denote debt, you have a financial system. Some will even argue that trading food is still a financial system, as you have to establish worth relative to the goods you are trading. But, having no government is easy in a small group.

>> No.2977019

>>2977004
No state/government = rules out most things
No money = How does one acquire possessions?

>> No.2977021

>>2977004
Although I am not one myself, I know the ancoms have a fairly rigid theory on how a society without money and government would work, as this is fundamental to their philosophy.

A simpler answer to your question would be that a post-scarcity society is likely to be free of both government and money.

>> No.2977029

>>2977021
>post-scarcity
That is entirely a speculative fiction concept.

>> No.2977035

It is against the nature of man for the totality of human kind to be both without greed and without the lust for power.

However, at the end of "The Forever War", mankind decides to do away with some aspects of our anthropology and become a race of male and female clones, and begins to develop a hive mentality.

I think that would be a good start to a money and govt less society. Become like honey bees.

>> No.2977037

>>2977035
>The Forever War
I hated those time skips.
Well, I disliked the book overall, but still.

>> No.2977040

>>2977035
Uh, what?
Bees are an absolute monarchy.
All bees exist for their Queen.
That is the strongest government you can get.

>> No.2977043

>>2977040
Substitute the queen with a huge cloning complex, and all the clones working for the survival of the gene pool.

>>2977037
It wasnt that bad, I enjoyed it. It was a good taking a shit/taking a bath book.

>> No.2977046

>>2977029
I didn't say it wasn't.

>> No.2977052

>>2977043
>taking a shit
I've never understood "bathroom readers".
How long are reading this for? Why do you want to sit on the toilet for so long?

>taking a bath book.
Why take a bath when you can shower so much quicker?

>> No.2977077

>>2977052
I dont think we are going to be on the same wavelengh, but I'll try.

I have two types of bowel movements. The ones done in an instant in the morning, and the ones in the late afternoon where you kinda have to let gravity do the work. Regardless, if you have a book in your hands, you cant exactly be pondering the deeper messages of Dostoyevsky or Kazuo Ishiguro, so its nice to have a book with big explosions while you wait 5-15 minutes.

As for the bath, I shower in the morning, and then after wife and kid have gone to bed, I draw a bath and read with all but my eyes and nose above water. Its very relaxing, and I like sleeping on clean sheets. Again however, your mind tends to drift in the bathtub, so its probably best not to be reading an analysis of the duke of Marlboroughs personality.

>> No.2977096

>>2977019
What I mean is no large governing body with power over imaginary lines and land within it.

>>2977017
I mean for the entire planet earth

>> No.2977101
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2977101

>>2977096
OP, I have some bad news for you...

>> No.2977106

>>2977035
This model of a "hive" is already the case with society. Interesting read concerning this if you can find it... The Grumbling Hive or Knaves Turn'd Honest- Bernard Mandeville. Mandeville was a heavy influence on philosopher Adam Scott, author of the Wealth of Nations and Theory of Moral Sentiments. Read Smith and you'll truly learn something.

>> No.2977112

>>2977077
>Regardless, if you have a book in your hands, you cant exactly be pondering the deeper messages

Why not? I do some of my best thinking on the shitter. I have fond memories of reading C&P with a turtle's head poking out of my jacksie. I was so enthralled that I sat there for over an hour after I finished evacuating my bowels.

>> No.2977127

>>2977101
what?

>> No.2977131

>>2977019
Possessions vs Necessities is something which deserves a distinction.

>> No.2977156

>>2977112
Too each his own, I think I push to hard though, and I often have hemheroids being a neckbeard, so I prefer some light reading.

>> No.2977169

>>2976996
I would start by instigating state socialism and producing currency.

>> No.2977170

I guess your the same guy who made the thread about an anarchist society with people in jail

>> No.2977175

>>2977106
>Mandeville was a heavy influence on philosopher Adam Scott, author of the Wealth of Nations and Theory of Moral Sentiments. Read Smith and you'll truly learn something.
>Read Smith.
>Smith

>> No.2979518

>>2977156
You don't even need to be a neckbeard to have hemorroids. You just need to stay too long on the shitter.

;_;

>> No.2979552

>How would you construct a society that is free from the use of money and government?

as a fairy tale fantasy in my mind.

>> No.2979807

Kill the one percent and thier family/inheritents.

>> No.2979818

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

>> No.2979826

It would be a barter-based economy . . . which is what Neanderthals -- I mean "anarchists" want to use.

>> No.2979893

>>2979826
>implying you speak for every anarchist ever
>implying capitalism is any better
Capitalism pretty much equals: fuck everyone but me.
This is no way to run a healthy society.

>> No.2979912

>>2979893
meh. everyone is an economist these days...

>> No.2980584

>>2979552
this

>> No.2980687

>>2979893
>fuck everyone but me
Many people are selfish and tend to want to do that anyway. If you have another system, how would it prevent them from doing so? At least with capitalism they have to produce stuff other people want, so we get something productive out of their selfishness.

>> No.2980692

I would use brainwashing to prevent all newborn children from developing theory of mind. problem solved

>> No.2980703

Adiamante by L. E. Modesitt, Jr. had an intriguing system. Too bad it requires an intelligent and mature population.

>> No.2980706

You could use a time bank, or extreme communism. Other than that, simply having money that decays slowly to counteract usury would be pretty neat. Check out Silvio Gesell.

>> No.2980709

>>2979893
The problem with our system is not egoism, the problem is that our monetary system is completely rigged. Check out Alexander Del Mar’s History of Monetary Systems and Brooks Adams’ The Law of Civilization and Decay.

>> No.2980711

>>2980703
Care to elaborate for those who have not read it and do not have a copy handy?

>> No.2980714

>>2980711
<copy/paste from wikipedia>

The Paradigms of Power
Society is based on morality.
Morality rests on consensus and requires the use of power to remove those who will not accept that consensus.
The continued existence of a shared morality rests upon the forbearance of every single individual within a society from claiming the whole fruit of his or her labour.
A society’s ability to achieve consensus is inversely proportional to the size and complexity of society, to the degree of technological advancement, and to the speed of internal communications.
Power cannot be maintained and effectively exercised, without a moral structure accepted and practiced by all, because power attracts the corruptible, and corruption destroys consensus.
Certain individuals are born incapable of forbearance; so are certain cultures.
Thus the continuation of society rests on: the willingness of each individual to accept the shared values of the society, the willingness and the ability of those in power to remove those who do not support the morality of the society; and the willingness of all to limit the size and complexity of the society to the scope of the consensus required.

>> No.2980715

>>2980714
<cont>

The Construct
The society of earth also adheres to a document called 'the construct' which provides additional guidelines for their society.
Mutual individual respect, and self-respect must be maintained, since the greater the mutual respect between individuals and the respect for the role of each individual within the society, the greater the stability of the society.
Because society is founded on trust, trust cannot be withheld on unfounded suspicion.
Threats are a form of mistrust, so are unprovoked violence, use of physical force, and manipulation of another. Failure to be trustworthy requires removal from society.
Attempts to re-define principles into written rules of conduct reflect mistrust and are doomed to failure.
Direct statements of individual desires are not forms of mistrust, but no individual or group of individuals is bound or required to fulfil another’s desire.
Society may agree upon mutually restrictive and/or coercive measures, but only so long as such measures have commensurate impact upon those who develop and impose such measures.

>> No.2980719

>>2980715

Internally, currency is replaced by a system where an individual labors' worth is graded by the complexity of the tasks completed and the time spent working on said tasks. This is reffered to as "comptime"

For example, if i want a personal flying machine I could pay for it by completing 50 hours of highly skilled and dangerous labor performing maintenance on an orbiting satellite. Alternately I could do 500 hours sweeping floors.

>> No.2980722

>>2980719
The nice twist is that the role of a leadership position racks up an enormous comptime debt

>> No.2980728

>>2980714
So, if I have it right; The Paradigms of Power essentially says that you should keep the number of people each person interacts with small, so as to prevent conflicts in belief systems, along with a somewhat socialistic command to give a portion of your efforts towards the community. That might be workable, as inside small communities there is more pressure to follow societal guidelines. Having a small society seems to be inviting invasion by larger societies, though.

>>2980715
The Construct sounds unworkable, however.
>Because society is founded on trust, trust cannot be withheld on unfounded suspicion.
Trust is not defined, nor is unfounded suspicion (who decides if it is unfounded? Is it unfounded if you go by personal experience alone? What about rumours or secondhand experiences?).

>>2980719
So comptime is pretty much just money?

>>2980722
I cannot see the rationale behind this decision. Making leadership positions cost money just ensures that the only people willing to take them (assuming rational actors) will be those who anticipate getting a large return from abusing said postion, or who really enjoy ordering people around. I want neither leaders who are there to abuse their position nor those who are doing it for the fun of ordering others about.

>> No.2980736

>>2980728
>So comptime is pretty much just money?

not that guy, but it seems the main difference is that comptime wouldn't be a currency, but more a representation of economic value. So the society couldn't print more comptime, and the distribution of wealth (comptime) couldn't be so vastly skewed as it is with a fiat currency. No complex financial instruments to buy and sell foreign comptime on the stock market, etc

>> No.2980739

>>2980736
I'm not an economist, but I thought currency was meant to be a representation of economic value.

>> No.2980741

>>2980728
You've pretty much nailed it. The books setting takes place long after a socialist war in a very high tech society resulting in a nearly total apocalypse. The books reminiscent of old school 70's hard sci-fi. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then I highly recommend it.

>> No.2980748

>>2976996
Make them telepathic.

>> No.2980753

>>2980741
It does look interesting. Thank you for mentioning it to me.
(sage for off topic)

>> No.2980771

>>2979893
no, capitalism improves everyone's lives. If you don't want something from another then don't take it/ trade it. Have you ever read an economic textbook? The only system that fucks everyone but a small minority is attempted communism as seen by the wealth of the leaders and the poverty of the people, or any other powerful government.

>> No.2980781

>>2980771
No it doesn't.

>> No.2980786

>>2980771
AHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Well this depends on what we mean by 'capitalism'. But the kind of capitalism that actually exists is horrible. Corporations are people? Money is speech? Fuck you, USA. the US buy goods from around the world for $ and then print more $, effectively stealing half of what they paid back. They have a huge army to ensure everyone plays along and they get whatever resources they need. The whole banking and currency system is fucked so that small investors get forever fucked over. And the 'economic textbooks' you are talking about, are those the ones advocating deregulation? Are you even aware that no decent country wanted to try crazy Chicago-school privatization, so the IMF FORCED needy third-worlders to agree on trying it, in return for help? These ideas failed, and they failed hard. Who does Obama call to draw regulations for the financial sector? Goldman Sachs employees. Fuck that.

>> No.2980806

I'd use bees instead of people.

>> No.2980829

>>2980806
BEES! Bzzzzzz we'll see who draws in more honey