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/lit/ - Literature

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2975657 No.2975657[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

ITT uncomfortable literary truths

Infinite Jest is Science fiction

>> No.2975658

Good one. Here's another:

Infinite Jest isn't worth reading.

>> No.2975675

You will never know what it would be like to read the completed version of "book x" that "author y" did not finish before their death.

>> No.2975704

>>2975675
The other books that were supposed to come after The Brothers Karamazov. ;-;

>> No.2975716

Slaughterhouse-five is science fiction

(I'm not very original)

>> No.2975719

Lots of fucking good books are considered science fiction

>> No.2975718

People other than you will lead more interesting and worthwhile lives without ever picking up books

>> No.2975749

Gravity's Rainbow is Science fiction

>> No.2975761

Camus, Steinbeck, Kafka, Dickens and Fitzgerald all died leaving before finishing their last books.

You will never know what could have been.

>> No.2975768

Uncomfortable literary truth: Anybody that is uncomfortable with labelling a book as "Science Fiction" has no concept of literature.

>> No.2975772

The Golden Bowl is Science fiction

>> No.2975785

Infinite Jest is pretty shit.

>> No.2975792

>>2975657
plato was the reason for the rise of stalin, khomeini, and hitler

>> No.2975918

>>2975658
I will never understand why this board takes daily shits on Infinite Jest.

>> No.2975930

>>2975918
because shitting on something makes you better than that thing

>> No.2975938

Ulysses is science fiction.

>> No.2975939

The Bible is science fiction.

>> No.2975944

All science fiction is simply precursor and instruction for future scientists and leaders.

>> No.2975968

preconceived notions about what is 'good' and 'bad' literature will prevent you from enjoying or even reading many, many books.

>> No.2976046

You will never read all the good books in the world.

>> No.2976056

>>2975968
true however the sheer volume of books in existence will prevent you from enjoying or even reading many books.

>> No.2976064

>>2975939
>The Bible
>Science

It's Fantasy.

>> No.2976087

Dostoevsky wrote his books to pay off his card debts. He was paid by word count, hence endless tl;dr descriptions of unimportant shit etc.

>> No.2976092

>>2975657
First post doesn't matter.
Second post do.

>> No.2976110

>>2976087
And yet his books were still great. Truly the hallmark of genius.

>> No.2976313

>>2975918
There's nothing wrong with calling a bad book bad.

>> No.2976337

>>2976313
>There's nothing wrong with calling a bad book bad.

It's not bad. It's not a great 20th century classic, but as sci-fi novels go, it's one of the better ones.

>> No.2976344

>>2976337
That's really not saying much. I don't even think it's true.

>> No.2976350

>>2976344
>That's really not saying much. I don't even think it's true.

DFW seems like a gentrified PKD to me. (Caveat: I don't much like PKD and didn't read much of his work.)

>> No.2976357

>>2976350
He's nothing like PKD, and he's only gentrified in the sense that he's bourgeois as fuck.

>> No.2976367

>>2976357
But the bourgeoisie is literally the direct opposite of being gentrified, and so the guy you're replying to is a fucking retard.

>> No.2976371

>>2976367
>the bourgeoisie is literally the direct opposite of being gentrified

Not exactly, but I get what you're saying

>> No.2976375

>>2976357
> He's nothing like PKD

He's a shitload like PKD.

(Also, implying PKD wasn't 'bourgeois'.)

>> No.2976382

is infinite jest good?

>> No.2976383

>>2976367
>But the bourgeoisie is literally the direct opposite of being gentrified

No, you idiot.

'Bourgeois' just means 'middle-class' in French, nothing more.

'Gentrification' is when rich people try to adopt mannerisms/lifestyles of poor people to seem faux-authentic or hipsterly sincere.

>> No.2976385

>>2976383
I'm aware of what Bourgeois means in French. I was however, partially unaware of what Gentrification meant. I apologise for my ignorance.

>> No.2976389

>>2976385

lol this guy writes like a fag

>> No.2976392

>>2976389
:(

>> No.2976420

Gustave Flaubert fucked a child prostitute in Egypt and vividly described the boy's pockmarked ass.

People still attempt to learn about the nature of the world by reading up on the ancient greeks.

>> No.2976435

>>2976383

This isn't what gentrified means at all.

Gentrification is when middle/upper class people change something(generally housing/places) to conform to middle/upper class taste.

>> No.2976436

>>2976420
I had no idea Flaubert was gay. Was every great writer a homo, or what? It's incredible how high the percentage is.

>> No.2976439

>>2976383
>'Gentrification' is when rich people try to adopt mannerisms/lifestyles of poor people to seem faux-authentic or hipsterly sincere.

I can't tell if you're trolling or really that stupid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification

This describes a socioeconomic phenomenon where wealthy whites move into predominantly black, impoverished and/or working class areas and drive up the land value, thus causing the people that lived there before to be priced out of the neighborhood. It does not refer to a specific aesthetic affectation but oftentimes the people doing the gentrifying do attempt what you describe. Inform yourself about the world, for fuck's sake.

>> No.2976484

>>2976439
That's the literal meaning of the word, as used by real estate agents and politicians.

Informally, the literal definition can be rephrased in simple language as: "when a bunch of white people move to the ghetto and open up a bunch of cup cake shops". (This is from the urbandictionary.)

In the context of this thread of course 'gentrification' is used figuratively.

That's exactly what DFW is doing -- writing cup-cake-shop novels about ghetto themes in a faux-sincere ghetto style.

(I use 'ghetto' here both figuratively and literally; literally because DFW writes about grimdark people doing drugs in the ghetto, and figuratively because genre fiction is considered a kind of 'literary ghetto', and DFW is cribbing heavily from genre fiction.)

>> No.2976499

Dellilo is clearly a way bigger influence on DFW than PKD or any other conventional science fiction

>> No.2976498

>>2976484
>Informally, the literal definition can be rephrased in simple language as: "when a bunch of white people move to the ghetto and open up a bunch of cup cake shops". (This is from the urbandictionary.)

White suburbanites are pretty slow on the uptake and direly uninformed about gentrification and its effects. It's very important to understand the full meaning of the word. Just sayin!

I'm not all that interested in the DFW discussion but thanks for clarifying.

>> No.2976541

>>2976436
>Was every great writer a homo, or what?

Only the French ones.

>> No.2976545

>>2976436
homosexuality is almost exclusively a caprice of middle class white males, which most good writers tend to be.

>> No.2976546

>>2976541

Oscar Wilde

>> No.2976555

>>2976499
> Dellilo is clearly a way bigger influence on DFW than PKD or any other conventional science fiction

PKD is not 'conventional science fiction'.

(I'd guess 'conventional science fiction' would be Asimov or "Ender's Game" or other similar books for retards.)

>> No.2976560

>>2976484

Gentrification is not 'taking from and or/copying' the lower class(whether it be people, place of genre).

It is going into that class, destroying it and replacing it with themes/items/mannerisms that are deemed ok by the higher classes.

A rich person going into the ghetto and doing drugs is not gentrification.

Perhaps this is what you were trying to say, you weren't that clear really.

>> No.2976564

>>2976560

and/or, place of genre

>> No.2976565

>>2976564

place or genre ffs

>> No.2976569

>>2976560
> Perhaps this is what you were trying to say, you weren't that clear really.
Uh, yeah, that's what I was saying.

>> No.2976576

>>2976555
Yeah conventional was a bad word. Canonical science fiction maybe? I just meant works that most people classify as science fiction.

>> No.2976581

people who hate infinite jest have no patience or respect

>> No.2976623

women can't write.

>> No.2976630

>>2976581
People who dislike Infinite Jest, per my experience, have been people well-versed in literature. Not just Bloom, but people I know personally who laugh the book off.

The only people I know in real life who like Infinite Jest are youngish people who haven't really read all that many books, but like to appear "learned".

>> No.2976632

>>2976623
They can't tell jokes either and very few can act

>> No.2976641

>>2976630

>The only people I know in real life who like Infinite Jest are youngish people who haven't really read all that many books, but like to appear "learned".

You mean people like Don Delillo, David Markson, Michael Silverblatt, people even outside of the USA (Germany has a big fanbase with a few famous presenters etc.)?
I think you should read a bit more about the reception and not extrapolate your own views on the general public.

>> No.2976648

>>2976641
>Don Delillo, David Markson, Michael Silverblatt

I don't know these people, personally. I'm saying that the only people I know personally who've read the book and liked it were people who are around 18-25 and not all that well-read.

>> No.2976650

>>2976648
no one cares about you or your insipid friends.

>> No.2976652

>>2976630
I do not like DFW at all, but that does not mean his fans are stupid. Naive, perhaps, or maybe they just have a different taste in writing or an outlook on life more attuned to what DFW was getting out. It turns out people have different tastes.

>> No.2976658

>>2976648

>the only people I know personally who've read the book and liked it were people who are around 18-25 and not all that well-read.

No, you are essentially saying that Infinite Jest is for stupid hipsters who are too young to understand that IJ is bad, and that you are in line with Bloom's sentiment (i.e. literary critics) about the book and that your friends or whatever confirm that.

>> No.2976664

DFW detractors are obnoxious as fuck. Seriously, you're ruining this board. It's no coincidence that the board's general quality degenerates at a rate directly proportional to the amount of negativity aimed at DFW.

>> No.2976667

All books are science fiction

>> No.2976669

>>2976658
bloom is pretty much the only major critic who doesn't like dfw, and there's a whole history of beef behind that. not that anyone who knows their stuff even gives a damn about bloom in 2012, anyway. just saying.

>> No.2976671

>>2976669
Name a respected critic who likes DFW.

Just so you know, Dave Eggers isn't a respectable anything.

>> No.2976672

>>2976664
It's because it provokes a very negative reaction from people who are diehard fans. A lot of those people tend to be in the demographic a 4chan literature board is aimed at. It's blatant trolling that I've engaged in myself, but admittedly low-hanging fruit at this point.

>> No.2976678

>>2976671
"Shakespeare had his critics too, see if you can name two of them"
-Mark Brandon Read

>> No.2976679

People that think IJ is not a masterpiece are flat out stupid or European.

>> No.2976681

>>2976678
DFW is a pipsqueak retard compared to Shakespeare.

>> No.2976683

>>2976679
Europeans consider American literature flat out stupid. Funny how that works.

>> No.2976686

>>2976681
and you're a pipsqueak retard compared to DFW. Hell, you're even a pipsqueak retard compared to me.

>> No.2976688

Franzen is the Great American Novelist

>> No.2976691

>>2976686
DFW built a career around pandering to college-educated white, suburbanite idiots.

In comparison, I am a genius.

>> No.2976695

>>2976679
u w0t m8? DFW is an American phenomenon. Here in superior Europe we read authors like Krasznahorkai and Kadare and Pamuk.

>> No.2976694

>>2976664

>Seriously, you're ruining this board. It's no coincidence that the board's general quality degenerates at a rate directly proportional to the amount of negativity aimed at DFW.

This. /lit/ has been so horrible in the last few weeks (even months) and it's got to do with the amount of DFW LEL TROLLING threads.

>> No.2976692

>>2976683
Americans consider Europeans flat out stupid. Funny how its true.

>> No.2976697

>>2976692
I think freerepublic.com is a bit more your speed. That or /pol/.

>> No.2976698

>>2976692
>americlaps calling anyone else stupid

don't like 99% of your population still believe in god?

>> No.2976703
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2976703

>mfw americans clap when kate gompert dies

>> No.2976706

>>2976698
It's in the high 80s-low 90s percentage-wise. Also most of them are Protestant.

>> No.2976710
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2976710

MFW not a European

>> No.2976749

>>2976698
Religious =! Unintelligent
Oh, right, troll.