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/lit/ - Literature

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2950852 No.2950852[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

What are some good counter-arguments when someone says I shouldn't joke about a topic as it might offend someone?

>> No.2950858

If you don't have a good reason to then why are you making them?

I'm not saying offensive jokes are unacceptable, just that if you can't justify them yourself then fuck you.

>> No.2950864

if someone says he's offended tell him to grow up and that the world is cruel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tn2EhGK5ok

>> No.2950871

>>2950858
Cause they are lulz worthy. I can justify 'em to a certain extent. For example, if I make a racist joke, they say it'll is very offending to certain people. Now, I respond with the statement that not everyone's sense of humor is the same and certain people find racist jokes funny. They just counter it with unavoidable logic that I'm a racist and should learn what's socially accepted and what's not. I'm brown and I find it very weird about how people in most western countries make such a big deal out of it. Terrorists jokes and 9/11 jokes are considered topics that CANNOT be joked about by some people

>> No.2950869

>>2950852
Because once you start taking prudes and puritans into consideration you can't say anything at all any more. People get offended a lot. Some people get offended at anything that differs from their opinion. So best to go all out with your parrhesia and don't give a fuck. Being considerate leads to (self)censorship, being a loudmouth asshole leads to some hurt feelings and freedom of speech.

Other way: "I'm aware of that and I enjoy offending people."

>> No.2950873

So it sounds like you want to be edgy but don't want to face any consequences for it.

>> No.2950876

"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it"

>> No.2950880

>>2950873
I should clarify. I only joke when I'm in a party. 8/10 people laugh. And the other 2 are offended.

>> No.2950881

>>2950876
Freedom of speech =/= Freedom from someone saying to you "hey, you're being an unfunny asshole, you might not want to do that." It's not the issue here.

>> No.2950884

>>2950880
Doing it right, carry on. Protip: Go outside for a smoke with the cool people. People who get offended often don't smoke.

>> No.2950889
File: 27 KB, 600x378, stephen fry.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2950889

>>2950852
Dat Stephen Fry quote.

>> No.2950892

tell them humor simply transfigures pain

>> No.2951011

>>2950871
People always say too soon at 9/11 jokes.
We should always say not soon enough.

>> No.2951055

Introduce them to /b/ and ask them if they still find your dead baby jokes offensive.

>> No.2951063

>>2951011
But it is too soon for 9/11 jokes. It's only 9/02

>> No.2951072

Humor is a means of turning sorrow into joy, anger into happiness -- negative feelings into positive feelings. Telling jokes after a tragedy, or about something tragic, is no different than sharing stories about a deceased person at their funeral. It's to make everyone there just a little bit happier.

>> No.2951079

>>2951072
Sure, but that doesn't justify all jokes about a given thing, you know? There's a difference between jokes that work like that and jokes that are just disrespectful and cheap and shitty.

I don't know, obviously my opinion is not the majority one here. W/e.

>> No.2951084

>>2951072
This.

But we forgot about the original purpose of humor because we are just too spoiled and comfortable now, so we have time to play these games of "touchy subjects" and PC shit.

>> No.2951088

>>2950881

People seem to take Freedom of Speech as some kind of holy writ in this country. It's not.

All Freedom of Speech means constitutionally is, you can express whatever opinion you so desire about the government, without fear of being beaten up, arrested, or killed for it. That's it. It doesn't mean whatever you have to say is valid, and it doesn't mean everyone has to listen to what you have to say.

If you want to make a pro-life speech at a pro-choice rally, Freedom of Speech doesn't mean everyone has to listen to you. It just means they can't kill you for saying it.

>> No.2951094

>>2951084
yeah but otoh a lot of this humor is less "cathartic, natural human reaction to stress and fear and pain" and more "angry outbursts of people who are angry and hateful"

>> No.2951095

>>2951072
like when white people turn their discomfort with people of other races from a negative feeling of hatred mixed with guilt to a positive feeling of "lol black people"?

>> No.2951098

>>2951079

I agree. My feeling is, in transfiguring a negative emotion, if you create more positive emotion in more people than you do negative emotion in others, and if you do so in a way that upholds common principles -- not of "decency", but of broad ethics; ie you're not spewing hate speech and demanding leniency because it's funny -- then you're probably doing the best you can, as a comedian.

>> No.2951110

>>2951095
see
>>2951098

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Since we're talking about what makes comedy acceptable or unacceptable, you might check out this new show on Comedy Central, "The Burn."

Don't watch a whole episode (you'll go insane at the decline of Western society and start bombing public buildings) but watch like ten minutes. You'll see how, not only are the jokes tasteless, but they're also completely without any redeeming merit -- and most egregiously, they're not even funny. It's just cynical, hateful bile, delivered with a grin and a clever twist of phrase.

>> No.2951117

>>2950852
http://youtu.be/gy2pGXLyztQ?t=4m15s

Richard Pryor knows best.

>> No.2951132

life is not just pleasant, there are some harsh aspects [for certain people] and some comedians will expose that.
it can be an unpleasent shock if you're living by the "mainstream rules", which means with a lot of ignorance of what's really happening in the world.

anyway, watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeqbZYBlKA8

>> No.2951152
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2951152

I say that I'm offended by nearly everything mainstream; ads, tv, pop music, blockbuster films, and no one cares about offending me.

Another response:
Also 30,000 people die every day in Africa from easily treatable diseases, and you worry about something riskee I said?

>> No.2951175
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2951175

Just shut the fuck up.

>> No.2951177

>>2951175
no, you shut the fuck up, dad!

>> No.2951187

>>2951098
>if you create more positive emotion in more people than you do negative emotion in others
this is such cargo-cult utilitarianism. how are you possibly supposed to determine whether your joke does this?

>> No.2951189

>What are some good counter-arguments when someone says I shouldn't joke about a topic as it might offend someone?

You: Christ, sorry, I didn't see you there, you're better at hiding than Anne Frank.

Guy: you can't say that it's like so insensitive like omg i cant belive you just said that like...

You: shhh, Listen. How do you get 100 jews in a car? ... In the ashtray.

>> No.2951192
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2951192

>>2951063

>> No.2951193
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2951193

I've always believed that you can really only come to terms with the things that trouble you if you learn to laugh at them. Laughter is also a wonderful aid to just being able to deal with the more unpleasant parts of life. It's why I like Louis CK, for instance.

Here's a relevant excerpt Frankie Boyle's introduction to his latest book, Work! Consume! Die!:
"I've always had an instinct to laugh at everything, the good stuff, the horror, everything. With laughter comes perspective. You might be scared of the dark, you might be sitting alone in the woods in the dark but if you suddenly hear laughter... no, wait a minute. Some people don't hold with the old 'gallows humour', it's not civilised, there's some stuff you shouldn't laugh about and so on. I think we're all in this trench together and everything is fair game. Do me a favour. Any time you have a problem with somebody having a laugh, have a think about where your grandparents went, look around and tell me what you think a hallows looks like."

>> No.2951198

>>2951189
thx for this perfect example of how not all jokes about something are positive / good / cathartic, and sometimes humor is just mean-spirited, unoriginal, low-down, and mean, and those jokes are kind of shitty. it's an important distinction to make so thanks for illustrating it so well.

>>2951193
I don't disagree with any of this.

>> No.2951207

Moral judgements cannot be passed on opinions or language, only social judgements. Therefore, their condemnation of your jokes is simply a socialised response which carries no weight.
If it was one simple response? just ask 'why?'

>> No.2951213

>>2951187

You can't, any more than you can tell if your novel expresses something true or is a great work of literature. I'm saying it's what you should strive for.

Being funny isn't of itself noble. Being comedy doesn't earn it a magical cloak of protection. Stepping in dog-shit is funny too -- but it doesn't mean anything.

In my opinion, the best comedy -- like the best of any kind of art -- draws from the things that make us uncomfortable, the things that frighten us, sadden us, things we don't like to talk about or that aren't typically explored, and uses it to express something true. That's what all good art does: transfigure something unpleasant into something true, while ________. For dramatic screenwriting, _____ is "while being a compelling and dramatic movie." For horror, it's "while being scary."

For comedy, it's "while being funny."

>> No.2951214

>>2951193

I agree with this but Frankie Boyle is an absolute cunt.

>> No.2951216

>>2951193
>>2951193
Shame the majority of his material isn't funny. There's saying something generally funny out of an uneasy subject then there's just trying to sound controversial. Don't get me wrong: he has balls, his autobiography was good and he makes me laugh but not consistently.

I think there's a difference between it generally being funny or something to get a rise out of people.

>> No.2951224

>>2951214
I love Frankie.

>>2951216
I agree he's not consistently hilarious (Jimmy Carr, for instance, is much better on that front), but when he is funny, he's really fucking funny - and with a pretty distinct voice.

>> No.2951226

You can always tell these kinds of pointlessly edgy jokes too, because every comedian that tells them uses the same exact two-part tag after the joke. Part one "Ha ha, I'm so ashamed of that joke I just made, what a terrible person I am, and how terrible you are for laughing" followed immediately by "Just kidding, I'm not ashamed at all. Ha ha!"

Here's an example:

> Did you hear Tony Scott killed himself? Must have watched one of his own movies!
(pause)
> No, that's awful, I'm kidding. Seriously, he was a great man.
(pause)
> Just a shitty director!

That joke is easy, unfunny, and there's nothing original about it. All this "power and purpose of comedy" stuff arose in the sixties, when there were people telling jokes about civil rights. IT doesn't apply to comedians who tell jokes like the one above, and when they try to claim it for its own sake, they deserve to be told to shut the fuck up.

>> No.2951229

Ask why it matters if someone is offended.

>> No.2951231

>>2951193
>I've always believed that you can really only come to terms with the things that trouble you if you learn to laugh at them.

You really believe that? So someone's wife who was raped and shot, before being sliced into pieces and left at the side of the road, should be able to just find humour in it? I know that's extreme, but life is full of harsh things, murders, wars, starvation, cancers, and when someone close to you has been affected, it's virtually impossible to laugh about.

A perfect example is Frankie Boyle with those parents. They had a child with multiple sclerosis (I think) and he stood in front of them relentlessly tearing into them with multiple sclerosis and retard jokes, to such an extent that the audience started walking out. You can't find humour in everything if the issue digs to close to the bone.

>> No.2951232
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2951232

>>2951189
>American tourists standing in line in front of the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam ready to get their shoah sensitivity on
>local walking by shouts she isn't home
>mfw

>> No.2951241

>>2951232

See that's funny because it has a grain of truth:

"Get a load of these overly-serious people trying to feel sensitive and get worked up about something that happened decades ago and has nothing to do with them."

>> No.2951242
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2951242

The very reason you're joking about the so-called offensive topic is because it's offensive. Offensiveness is the substance of your joke. Some would say these jokes are lesser jokes, and that the jokes which avoid reliance on offensiveness and employ a greater deal of intellectual prowess are more valuable.

The problem is, offensive jokes can also employ a great deal of intellectual prowess: they can be very witty (Larry David or Ricky Gervais), and they can be profound in transmuting sadness to happiness as some said in this thread (>>2951072), and they can be of great use in social commentary (Swift's
"Modest Proposal"), etc. And if the value of a joke lie in its capacity to make one laugh, these offensive jokes can sometimes very much win out the "tasteful" ones!

I am of the opinion that tasteless jokes are best enjoyed alone or in the company of a few friends. They are funny because of their absurd tastelessness. We can go on about how decency is a construct of our society and how in our utopia everybody would be making 9/11 dick jokes, but that gets us nowhere. If someone really finds your tasteless joke unfunny, then it doesn't matter if its because they were patterned to think that way, you have simply failed as a joker- that is, if your aim is to make people laugh. If your aim is to piss people off, though, now THAT's what I call edgy.

>> No.2951244

>>2951232
see, that's funny as hell

>> No.2951245

It's not an argument and there can be no counter-arguments.

It's just people expressing how they feel about it, and then is up to you if you are going to provoke it further or stop because you don't want to offend them.

What if you continue? They will be more offended, may even react violently.

What if you stop? You stop.

Some people get offended that others are offended. Go figure.

>> No.2951247

I don't know what the fuck is wrong with me, but my humor is morose as fuck. I started to laugh when I found out my grandmother died, even though it still made me feel like shit I just physically couldn't stop myself from cracking the fuck up. My fucking mind works against me all the fucking time and it's occasionally awful.

Barely related, but what the fuck is wrong with me?

>> No.2951255

>>2951231
>So someone's wife who was raped and shot, before being sliced into pieces and left at the side of the road, should be able to just find humour in it?
No, you're right. That, I'm sure, is an exception - but only because of how extreme it is. But in a broader context, we all live in a world where there's so much stuff like this - rape, murder, death, etc. - that it's really hard to make any sense or have any perspective on it. To be able to laugh about it once in a while is, I think, healthy. I think it would help to point out that I don't think anyone who lost family members in violent accidents in World War II would ever be able to laugh about the war. However, there's something - I don't think healthy is the right word, but perhaps you can see what I'm getting at - about the way someone like Kurt Vonnegut can use humor when writing about it.

>A perfect example is Frankie Boyle with those parents.
I don't expect the parents to laugh at what Frankie said, but I think his sense of humor just tends to be on the whole concept of celebrity and the role it plays in our culture. There's the famous Richard Hammond joke on Mock the Week. Now I don't Frankie was harboring much contempt for Richard Hammond, and yet that joke still strikes a deeply discomforting nerve - and yet you can't help but laugh at the joke. I don't know. I know we're talking about a sensitive edge - and I acknowledge that there is some limit to what I'm saying about being able to laugh at uncomfortable things - but I think there's something meaningful in the experience of impulsively laughing at something that also strikes you as somehow "too far."

>> No.2951266

>>2951255

> but I think there's something meaningful in the experience of impulsively laughing at something that also strikes you as somehow "too far."

I don't. There's nothing inherent noble about something being funny. If comedy comes at the expense of something "too far", there's nothing meaningful in that.

However, if a comedian takes the subject of something "too far," finds an insight in that which is meaningful, and if that insight also happens to be really funny -- that's good comedy.

Making a joke about AIDS isn't noble of itself.

It's more about expressing something true about AIDS, in a funny way.

Which still means jack shit if the insight expressed isn't meaningful of itself, and if the joke isn't funny enough to qualify it.

>> No.2951283

The other night when I was going down on this girl I tasted horse semen. So I said, "Ohhh. THAT's how you died, Grandma!"

>> No.2951284

>>2951266

It's sort of like a movie. Having over-the-line or topical content isn't noteworthy of itself. "Die Hard But It Takes Place In Iraq" doesn't mean anything.

Exploring over-the-line or topical content and expressing something true about it, though (and being a good movie at the same time) is worthy of recognition.

>> No.2951296

>>2951266
could you give examples of comedy that "expresses something true" about an "edgy" topic? usually edgy topics are edgy because they deal with complex issues, and most comedy that i have seen on edgy topics deals in audience flattering half-truths.

>> No.2951310

I hope something awful happens to Boyles family and he's bombarded with bad-taste jokes. Preferably family related.

>> No.2951337

>>2951296

Well, Richard Pryor's come up in this thread. He's a good example. He does bits about race relations, cocaine addiction, etc. It expresses artistic ideas that could just as easily be expressed in a story or a film, but it does them as comedy -- so he's conveying ideas, experiences, themes, and is funny at the same time. The more serious his topic, and the more instructive he's being, the funnier he has to be to make it stand as comedy.

Say you had a female comedian who had been raped. Say she did a bit about the experience, which put you perfectly in the mind of someone who had been raped, and which, by the time it was over, made you feel like you had learned something.

Now imagine the whole bit was just about the mustache of the guy who raped her. And now imagine the bit is really funny; it's about this chick being raped, but she has you in stitches about this guy's ridiculous mustache.

That's a feat.

>> No.2951359

>>2951337

Or opposite, suppose this male comedian (who has never raped a woman) does a bit about raping a woman. The character and voice and choice of words he uses expresses something about a guy who rapes women, and is really funny at the same time. That's a feat.

Louis CK does a bit like that, actually. He uses the word rape in a joke, and then he goes

> "I'm just kidding though, rape's not funny. You should never rape anyone. If you're thinking about raping somebody right now....you should never do that Unless you really want to fuck someone and, like, they don't want you to. In which case what are you gonna do, not rape them?"

And it makes the audience howl, the way he delivers it. He says he's never received a single piece of hate-mail about that joke, as he has other jokes.

And all that joke is doing is pulling you along, one line at a time, going "See how arbitrary and stupid the act of rape is? Isn't it funny how simple it is? It's so stupid."

>> No.2951378

I just say: I'm sorry for offending you; that wasn't my intention.

Then I won't make jokes like that around them anymore. I'm not going to argue about it. I have the right to say insensitive bullshit, and they have the right not to hear it.

>> No.2951383

>>2951359

To put it yet another way:

Observational humor is making humorous note of everyday occurrence. "Did you ever read the shit that's written on shampoo bottles?" Why, no Seinfeld, I haven't; tell me, what's funny about the stuff that's written on shampoo bottles? Ha ha, you're right, that is funny!

"Good" edgy humor could be considered a kind of observational humor, but about things people normally go out of their way to avoid observing. "You ever notice the mustaches on rapists?" Why no, I haven't, what's funny about the mustaches on rapists? Ha ha, that IS funny! And I learned something!

>> No.2951394

>>2951337
>>2951359
don't you think it's telling that you have to go completely neck deep in hypotheticals to make your argument?

>> No.2951401

>>2951394

Dude, I named two comedians off the top of my head, and I barely even watch comedy. If I were somebody who actually gave a shit about comedy, I could name you dozens of bits like that.

I'm not saying that's the pinnacle of comedy. Dude asked for an example of "edgy" comedy done well. I gave it.