/lit/ - Literature

[Console Gamer Extraordinaire !!BTCAa0Ulz/0 No.2940069]

If you want to be as culturally well rounded as you claim to be, you should play video games.

Otherwise you're just a poser.

[Anonymous No.2940076]

Add dragon age 2, and with that, fifty shades of grey.

[Anonymous No.2940079]

I do play some video games.

Maybe not the equivalent of the books I read, but I play a lot of STGs. I do read a lot of novellas and flash fiction, so maybe there's some correlation.

Anyone up for cross-media recommendations? Listing books you like, people recommend video games you may like.

[Anonymous No.2940085]

>Metal Gear Solid 4
>Philosophical masterpiece

The only way it transcends its genre is by becoming a movie.

Also, what kind of 'casual' dismisses the Great Gatsby? Anyone with an interest in books (or anyone that wants to look like they do) has fucking read it. That being said, I finished Dark Souls for the second time an hour ago. Truly a fantastic game, probably one of my top five of all time.

[Anonymous No.2940087]

Dragon Age 1 wasn't that bad, it was a solid RPG with some potential before Bioware completely went ass up for EA.

Fuck you for dissing ASOIAF too.

[Anonymous No.2940092]

>>2940085

On PC? If so, how's the port?

[Anonymous No.2940093]

>>2940085
>Metal Gear Solid 4
>Philosophical masterpiece

I appreciate the try anon. Oh wait you're a trip, nevermind.

Exit is here:
>>>/v/

[Anonymous No.2940095]

>>2940092

Nah, Xbox. Have a few friends who play it on PC, though. The resolution fix that was released makes it look pretty damn good, and the controls are fine as long as you use a gamepad. Mouse+Keyboard is an atrocity, though. It's a bad port that shouldn't have been released in the state it was, but under the right circumstances is amazing.

[Anonymous No.2940101]

Literally everything about that pic is wrong. Especially the last comparison. A Game of Thrones is great, and that 'ancient evil bullshit' is last thing you'll encounter in those books.

bad troll, 2/10

Run away, op.

Run away and never return.

[Anonymous No.2940102]

MGS4 was a mess in it's execution of the story. Also, no Silent Hill 2?
fucking casual

[Console Gamer Extraordinaire !!BTCAa0Ulz/0 No.2940103]

>>2840101
Except the white walkers are the exact definition of ancient evil.

[Anonymous No.2940105]

>>2940103
Just go away you don't know anything about either medium

[Anonymous No.2940106]

The Great Gatsby is an amazing book.
Wouldn't put Dark Souls next to it though.

[Anonymous No.2940107]

>console gamer
>knowing anything about video games

[Anonymous No.2940109]

Couldn't you just change MGS4 with MGS2.

[Console Gamer Extraordinaire !!BTCAa0Ulz/0 No.2940110]

>>2940105
>fails to refute the point
Face it. Your books are nothing more than a generic fantasy shitfest.

I've read all 5 books, before you say anything more.

[Anonymous No.2940112]

>>2940110
You and your name are embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.2940113]

>>2940085
I've heard countless of Americans whine about how boring it is and how it's the worst thing they ever read. As a foreigner, I find it depressing.

[Anonymous No.2940116]

Face it, the "gamers" of the world are the ones who need to be more well read, it's not the other way around. When they start making video game classes count for art credit at my university, it only serves to help CS students avoid doing anything to grow and be more culturally well rounded. Also, play some grand strategy or 4X games like a real man, and stop attaching so much importance on mindless shooters that try to mimic movies.

[Anonymous No.2940119]

>Gatsby
>difficult to understand

Come on.

[Anonymous No.2940121]

>>2940116
10/10 post

[Anonymous No.2940122]

Finnegans Wake = Yume Nikki
Seems completely unrelated to anything and utterly nonsensical at first, but it starts to eerily make sense when you start thinking outside of the box. By the end, you either went insane or became a philosophical genius.

[Console Gamer Extraordinaire !!BTCAa0Ulz/0 No.2940123]

>>2940112
>resorting to basic name calling
Hahahahaha this is hilarious please go on.

Or rather just accept the fact that ASOIAF is generic fantasy written by a perverted old man.

[Anonymous No.2940128]

/v/ here.

Disregard OP. It's quentin for those who know, and a retard for those who don't know who quentin is.

Videogames are just a means to pleasure like any other form of entertainment.

[Anonymous No.2940130]

>playing videogames
>being 14 years old

[Anonymous No.2940134]

>>2940130

[Anonymous No.2940138]

>>2940130

[Anonymous No.2940144]

>>2940130

I used to spend a lot of time on /v/ and other gaming forums. You're right.

If gamers aren't 14, then they have the same mindset and intelligence of a14 year old.

[Anonymous No.2940147]

>>2940144
14 is far more creative than 40.

[Anonymous No.2940149]

>>2940147
40 has a bigger dick.

[Anonymous No.2940151]

>>2940149
That's because he is one.

[Anonymous No.2940153]

>>2940144
If you seriously think that way, you are one ignorant idiot.
Games aren't a product mainly developed for angsty 14-year-olds. I've been playing games since I was 9 and had a PS1, and still do to this very day. If someone has a hobby that gives them fun and/or relaxation, that doesn't mean that they have a mindset of a 14-year-old.

[Anonymous No.2940160]

>>2940151

[Anonymous No.2940167]

>>2940153
Truth. It's the mindset of a 9 year old who wants to relax and have fun, not the mindset of an angsty 14 year old, that defines gamers.

[Anonymous No.2940171]

>>2940167
And what, adults never want to have fun and are always angry and depressed?
This "vidya gaemz are fur nerdz" crap stopped being active in 1995. It's just an entertainment form, like movies AND books. You might say that it cannot express art in the same way (although some games go for the pretentious artsy approach), what's the difference of watching a movie and just sitting down and playing a game? Does controlling your entertainment make you childish? Like hell it does.

[Anonymous No.2940175]

>>2940171
Maybe you are more like a 14 year old...

[Anonymous No.2940176]

MGS2 features more direct philosophical themes than MGS4.

[Anonymous No.2940177]

>>2940175
I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this, other than making up random nonsensical facts.

[Anonymous No.2940188]

But those are pretty casual games OP.

[Anonymous No.2940192]

>>2940188
>Deus Ex
>Dark Souls
>Casual
The joke writes itself

[Anonymous No.2940195]

>>2940192
Deus Ex human revolution is much more accessable than the original though.

[Anonymous No.2940196]

>>2940192
Human Revolution is casual as shit as far as gameplay goes, especially if you're not playing on GMDX difficulty right off the bat. The story is the real point to that game.

Souls series is only slightly less casual than most games (for a console title), but compare it to any roguelike (a genre it tries hard to imitate) and it misses the mark.

[Anonymous No.2940199]

Video games are only cognitively stimulating enough that you can play them for hours without actually ever doing anything.

They are the very definition of just wasting your time.

[Anonymous No.2940197]

Honestly, I've grown up with vidya AND books. I had fun with alot of vidya, but none even started to think on an artistic level. Games are, at the moment, nothing more than a good-running industry, who make dozens of dollars by wasting time of millions of their players. Of course, they are always exceptions, like some of the games OP listed. Sad thing though, that they still have the same idiotic rules as many of those non-exceptional games.

My tip to everyone who isn't well-played in vidya: ICO, Shadow of Colossus, Machinarium, Silent Hill 2,Fez, Braid, Journey. ( I would list Deus Ex 1 , but too outdated graphics, and Demon's Souls/Dark Souls, but too long and tiring)

You have then played the possibly best games (if you're not a middle schooler) and will know what power a game has over its player.

[Anonymous No.2940200]

>>2940196

>Souls series is only slightly less casual than most games (for a console title)

I'd say that it's about as non-casual as a game (Dark Souls) can get, while still being commercially successful. Especially when you consider how much games cost to develop now. Hell, the reason for it being successful is how downright brutal it can be. It's far less casual than most games that are equally successful.

[Anonymous No.2940202]

>>2940197
>fez

[Anonymous No.2940203]

>>2940196

But does it really have anything worthwhile to offer? A clever recipient will take greater benefit from reading K. Dick. I think it is still much too casual.

[Anonymous No.2940205]

>>2940203
I honestly treated it like a movie, I've notice that videogames generally don't have the best stories for a number of reasons and thus have little to say. You can notice any discussion on the story of most games and see it boil down to nothing but clarifying the lore a hundred times over.

[Anonymous No.2940206]

>>2940199
If you're looking at it that way, then books and movies are also completely pointless.

[Anonymous No.2940209]

>>2940197

>Fez
>Braid

No.

[Anonymous No.2940212]

>+ 44 posts and 6 image replies omitted. Click here to view.

Really?

[Anonymous No.2940214]

>>2940206
There is something worthwhile to take from most books and movies.

[Anonymous No.2940224]

>>2940214
And if you weren't so ignorant, you would know that there are certain games that can generally be considered actual art and games with a story that makes you think. I kinda put the sentence stupidly, but you (hopefully) get what I'm trying to say.
For example: ICO, Shadow of Colossus, Machinarium, Silent Hill 2, Braid, Journey, Yume Nikki, Deus Ex, Metal Gear Solid 2, Bastion, Majora's Mask, and probably the best one in the terms of Pulitzer-worthy story, Planescape: Torment.
I could go on, but I can't think of any from the top of my head.

[Anonymous No.2940228]

>>2940206
Videogames are inherently meant to keep one occupied and entertained, while say with other mediums like movies and literature, they'd trying to tell a story or express some form of thought. A videogame that diverts too much from being a game might as well have been a book or a movie and makes for a poor game. So there's lots of sacrifices especially towards the story to fit the limitations of the medium.

And then you have all these heads bumping together regarding the creative aspects of the game, and it becomes some colorful chimera of conflicting visions, nevermind the fact most of the shit would be made up for the sake of cool rather than have any meaning behind it. Whereas books and movies can be consistent throughout because it's all flowing from one source and one vision (generally speaking), and all elements therein contribute to the whole of the work, making it stronger.


tl;dr games are poor mediums for just about everything but keeping you glued to a screen.

[Anonymous No.2940234]

>>2940224
>What can change the nature of a man?

wow that's some deep shit you're right that blew my mind

[Anonymous No.2940237]

>>2940228
>Videogames are inherently...
What, people don't read or watch movies to pass the time, or play games to get to the story?

>And then you have all these heads bumping together regarding the creative aspects
The same applies to movies, which are also created by several people, despite what auteurfags want you to believe.

>So there's lots of sacrifices especially towards the story to fit the limitations of the medium.
This can become a problem, which is why the smarter games try to integrate gameplay and story. ICO, for instance, tells a story about friendship with very few cutscenes and no dialogue between the characters. Persona 4 enhances its theme of the difficulty of finding truth by making the interface try and prevent you from solving the mystery. Silent Hill 2 makes the horror worse by making you identify more with the main character because you control him. Storytelling in games doesn't have to mean copying movies.

[Anonymous No.2940240]

it isn't really fair to compare two completely different mediums. and games are a medium so much more dependent on inciting feeling than the others, whereas literature does do that but does not make that the goal. it's better to shelve such discussion.

[Anonymous No.2940241]

>>2940228
> A videogame that diverts too much from being a game might as well have been a book or a movie and makes for a poor game.

This. The only thing of value in a videogame is the game mechanics, which boils down (essentially) either to a mathematical puzzle or exercising hand-eye coordination.

[Anonymous No.2940245]

>>2940228
I think that the problem currently is that storytelling in games focuses too much on the one correct story method which you describe, and that method of storytelling is a horrible model for games, since it directly opposes their main strength as a storytelling medium compared to books and movies: their interactivity. This leads to having stories in videogames which would have been better if they had been made as a movie or a book, since they were written as if they were going to be presented as a movie or book, then shoved into the videogame instead.

[Anonymous No.2940246]

>great gatsby
>dismissed as inaccessible and too difficult
wat

[Anonymous No.2940247]

Video games is the best storytelling medium ever, but almost nobody uses it correctly. The true potential of vidya is yet to be reached, and only then it will be taken seriously.

Maybe The Last Guardian, if it's ever released.

[Anonymous No.2940248]

That image is dumb. Stop undermining this point by using it to troll.

[Anonymous No.2940249]

>>2940245
>>2940237

I see, perhaps games are becoming more like movies because they don't know how to take full advantage of the medium? I really would like to see a game that's wholesome in all it's aspects, but most of the time you get a game that has a couple good limbs and the others are crippled (good gameplay/shit story, vice versa, etc).

[Anonymous No.2940251]

>>2940241
with that philosophy games would never evolve. I'm not saying games should strive to be fucking visual novels but they can be something greater if people could transcend the idea that games should just be autism simulators.

[Anonymous No.2940254]

>>2940247
I wouldn't say that. "Story telling" is just story telling. Video games have a lot of potential. Potential to be what exactly, I'm not fully sure, affecting, and artistic surely, to be deep and profound, and even to tell stories. However to be the greatest "story telling medium" I don't think so, and I certainly don't think that's an insult, its just that fundamental what story telling is isn't what video games are, sure they overlap in places, but to make full use of a video game is no longer to tell a story, its indeed in part a creation of a story, an improvisation perhaps, like I said, I don't really know. But "story telling" is just that, story telling, the extension of the basic primitive form of man sitting around the fire and telling stories, whatever stories factual, fictional, mythic, doesn't matter. Video games when they conform to that archetype don't make full use of their potential as video games.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.2940265]

I highly recommend this.

[Anonymous No.2940266]

>>2940249
Part of the problem is that the only reasonable method to make a large-scale game which actually has meaningful choices is to use procedural generation (at least in part), and there are many things we are currently unable to procedurally generate well or at all (human voices is a major one). This is less of a problem if you're just dealing with a game like dwarf fortress, where everything is in ASCII and none of your dwarves have much of a personality, but is a major problem if you're trying to make a first person RPG where you actually interact with people.

Given that mainstream games are tending towards more detail in NPCs, making a game with actual choices (rather than the shitty be a saint or eat babies moral decisions we get now that change nothing anyway) is just impossible; it would require crazy amounts of voice work and scriptwriters and map designers and everything, and there is no guarantee it would even be good after all that work.

[Anonymous No.2940270]

Mainstream 'mature' games feel like they are written for a 15 year old audience at best. Everything else is pretentious indie shit. Metal Gear Solid 4 is good though.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.2940271]

>>2940266
>Part of the problem is that the only reasonable method to make a large-scale game which actually has meaningful choices is to use procedural generation

Why make big games like that anyway? You can provide something meaningful through telling a story in an adventure game. The best games aren't the ones that can be anything.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.2940272]

>>2940270
Games is sitting in the comic market basically so they won't be moving to actually mature experiences any time soon.

[Anonymous No.2940273]

>>2940270
Care to back that up with an explanation / shred of evidence? That's such a gigantic generalization you can tell no thought has been placed into a shred of that sentence.

[Anonymous No.2940274]

>>2940271
I'm sorry, but in that case I just don't see how video games as a medium has any advantage.

[Anonymous No.2940280]

You gamers are thick and insecure. When will you realise the obvious? Games are comparable to sports, not literature, tv, film or painting.

[Anonymous No.2940282]

[Anonymous No.2940284]

>>2940274
maybe its just a more immersive type of movie. it can have a lot of advantages, e.g. the player can move at their own pace, customise the characters, drill down into the story elements that interest them and ignore others, make changes to the story (usually not done well), influence character development (usually done badly).

[Anonymous No.2940291]

>>2940274
It's much easier to include meaningful choices in smaller games. See the game Facade, for instance, which is about the player visiting a couple whose marriage is falling apart. You can interact with them in a remarkably free way.

Even without choices, games have the advantage of making the player identify strongly with the main character. That's very useful in horror games and the like.

[Anonymous No.2940295]

>>2940271
I agree. I'm tending to no longer be a fan to these large-scale games that try to cover lots of ground in one sitting. I can do without the illusion of choice and open world maps with tons of (arguably shallow) content in games. I'd rather have a game that acknowledges is limitations and works within them, a linear game that's fully fleshed out beats a half-empty sandbox anyday.

[Anonymous No.2940299]

>>2940282
I honestly wish this was true, but I highly doubt it is.

[Anonymous No.2940303]

Am I the only one who thinks video games are fine as is? Like, in terms of plotting, they're shit, but I play video games for fun, not plot. Games don't need to be novels. We already have novels.
>>2940282
That image is really fucking autistic.

[Anonymous No.2940304]

>>2940299
I'd wager the reader is marginally more sucessful in life than the gamer, but both paths usually end up in the same place. I see as many bitter shits on /lit/ as I do on /v/, although /v/ is filled with many outright fools.

[Anonymous No.2940306]

>>2940069
Does your opinion stand if one is 35+? Surely you don't expect grown-ass men to play video games...

[Anonymous No.2940307]

>>2940282
I like how reading one book from Fitzgerald makes people feel they're intellectuals

I miss Quentin

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.2940308]

>>2940274
Depends how you tell the story. You can ruin the potential by being a linear experience or have no sense of storytelling by having an open world. There is a middle ground though and some good adventure games hit that.

While it's not that great an example I played Episode 1 of The Walking Dead adventure game and at one point we're told to find a pair of keys around the place that no one seems to be able to find. You look and look and look. The characters play to the idea it's taking you forever as well and while you're looking around obviously breaks in the annoying search happens and you speak to people who treat the situation just as that. There is a few hoops you have to jump through to realize how to get the keys and you're supposed to accidently get through them over time while keeping your interest with side objectives given through speech by different players. By the time you reach that point where you get the keys it's late and people recognize that its taken a while. Basically the struggle the player had became part of the story and it was designed to be this way. If you can design it so the experience of letting the player free in short bursts can still keep to the narrative then you can still tell the story in a unique way only video games can.

Maybe it's a bad example but it's the first that came to mind.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.2940310]

>>2940295
Damn right.

[Anonymous No.2940312]

>>2940306
There are plenty of grown men who at least occasionally play video games. You do realize for how long video games have been around?

[Anonymous No.2940315]

Why don't you compare starcraft broodwar to Art of war while you're at it?

That being said though, Art is all bullshit anyway, Art for art's sake is stupid.
But i don't think that just because video games are juvenile it doesn't mean that they shouldn't be considered art. I don't think that the medium has been given enough time to grow yet either. Video game creation is so complex compared to other mediums I don't think anyone's done much other than churn out what can basically be compared to as cheap action movies.

[Anonymous No.2940316]

>>2940284
>>2940291
>>2940308
I tend to identify better with characters in books than in video games, I don't know why, maybe its the fact that video game characters die thousands of time (probably not). But if its just for telling a story, if you get rid of the true interactivity its basically just "solve this puzzle"/"display the requisite hand-eye coordination" to hear the next part of the story. I can never really get into it.

As far as story telling itself goes I don't see the benefit of video games, I see some potential in them for new novel forms of interactive participatory stories, but when >>2940271 basically takes that out of the equation, I honestly just don't see the benefits.

[Anonymous No.2940317]

>>2940315
You'd have thought that almost a century after Marcel Duchamp people would have stopped arguing about what is art and what isn't. But no, we never learn, do we.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.2940318]

>>2940306
Of course. Obviously they'd have different taste in games, though. For the better or worse. If they don't take it seriously, it's hardly different from playing Solitaire and Monopoly when you're bored.

[Anonymous No.2940323]

>>2940318
Who the fuck plays Monopoly to be LESS bored?? that is one tedious nearly-never-ending terrible game.

[Anonymous No.2940327]

>>2940323
Not ADD kids like you. That's for sure.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.2940333]

>>2940316
>if you get rid of the true interactivity its basically just "solve this puzzle"/"display the requisite hand-eye coordination" to hear the next part of the story. I can never really get into it.
A lot of people are like that. It's fine.
If you want to get out of that I'd recommend something like >>2940265

And also my post >>2940271 never took participation out of the question. You can use freedom in unique yet limited ways to make the story feel more personal and still keep a concise narrative as I kinda of yet into in >>2940308
You're jumping between two ends of the spectrum here. Open world games are when participation is most if not all of the story and what you think I'm defending is the linear stories and just have you do objectives to have the story continue. What I'm trying to say is there is a blend. Some adventure games touched on it and hardly anyone knows how to do it right yet but it is there.

[Anonymous No.2940334]

>>2940327
There are better board games out there than monopoly though.
Monopoly is the mario of board games.

[Anonymous No.2940335]

When I was a child, I read books. When I turned 11, I started gaming. I played videogames constantly, until I turned 22. Suddenly they were all boring so I started reading books again. I've tried playing games but there's simply never anything new in them.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.2940340]

>>2940334
But Mario is neither boring nor tedious.

[Anonymous No.2940355]

>>2940316

My concern is more that people don't consider how games could be used to provide a unique storytelling medium, and just dismiss them out of hand as uncultured. I think that it is inarguable that currently most game stories are below literature and movies in terms of quality, but games have had less time to develop methods of effectively telling stories via gameplay.

There are some promising titles; Bastion had no cutscenes and didn't make the player read walls of text to get at its backstory. Instead, it narrated your journey through the game, and the narrator would mention what the player was doing in his story. It was still linear, but it was a much better method of telling the story.

[Anonymous No.2940376]

The Catcher in the Rye = Banjo-Kazooie. A coming-of-age story about a young man who has great adventures with his little sister.

[Anonymous No.2940392]

>>2940273

Well which 'mainstream' games would you yourself suggest buck from that trend?

I'm not the guy you responded to but it seems he has a point if you're going by a rule of thumb.

[Anonymous No.2940396]

why do mods suck so hard on this board?

[Anonymous No.2940406]

>>2940376

I laughed

[Anonymous No.2940408]

>>2940376
THAT'S HIS SISTER?!!?

[Anonymous No.2940422]

So is this quentin/stagolee's new trip?
Wasn't he banned from the internet after someone faked an image of him planning to shoot up his school?

[Anonymous No.2940424]

Most video games seem overly concerned with being a spectacle. To appear like movies. The best games understand, and are based around, the inherent interactive elements that are exclusive to the medium. I believe that there's prominent theories within Gaming Studies (or whatever it's called) that goes into this but I do whole-heartedly concur that the best game experiences, the most interesting ones by way of being able to do something unique to the medium, are those that maintain narrative within gameplay.

I don't think gaming should be as overly concerned with grand storytelling as it is. Narrative is an interesting part but it's best to present focused ideas.

Games also serve a pretty good purpose as interactive sports but that's quite a different part of video gaming.

[Anonymous No.2940428]

>>2940396
He's hot. I would definitely suck his cock.

[D'Averc !UfFKGtFx2M!!/0aWHODYBc0 No.2940439]

>>2940424
>Games also serve a pretty good purpose as interactive sports
sitting on your ass with a mouse and keyboard is now a sport everyone Usain Bolt and Justin Wong sure have a lot in common right

games and interactivity reached their apex with d&d, stop making a big deal of it

[MODS PLS DELETE No.2940453]

Here's the OP's video game reviews.

This is truly the worst board if you guys can get trolled so easily.

[Anonymous No.2940456]

I do play videogames but calling them something you do to be "culturally well rounded" makes me understand you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
If you're into being knowleadgeble about stuff and experiencing quality stories you're wasting your time (especially with the games you listed), you'd know that if you were a reader.
Sage for irrelevancy.

[Anonymous No.2940455]

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[D'Averc !UfFKGtFx2M!!/0aWHODYBc0 No.2940459]

What are you on about mate, everyone's just talking about literature and video games itt

[Anonymous No.2940460]

>>2940439
> sitting on your ass with a mouse and keyboard is now a sport everyone Usain Bolt and Justin Wong sure have a lot in common right

Mario much more a sport than chess, poker or curling. (Three games officially recognized as sports.)

A game becomes a sport when you have rules bureaucracy and an official ranking of players; there doesn't actually have to be physical activity involved.

[REPORT THIS THREAD No.2940468]

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[MODS ARE GODS No.2940475]

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>>2940396
>>2940396
>>2940396

[D'Averc !UfFKGtFx2M!!/0aWHODYBc0 No.2940478]

>>2940460
>officially recognized
implying I give a shit what the olympics board thinks is a sport or not mate.

>A game becomes a sport when you have rules bureaucracy and an official ranking of players
You are drawing on a different, superficial sense of the word 'sport' than the more historical, and contextualised one that I am concerned with. With the sense I am concerned with i.e. with the history of the development of athleticism, that conception is completely ludicrous, or rather, it is remarkably telling about the depressing state of some modern ideas about what an athlete is.

Tl;dr you can shove your "official" recognition up your ass, sorry bro

[Anonymous No.2940501]

>>2940478

are you also mad that it's called motorsport?

[Anonymous No.2940515]

>>2940478
> Tl;dr you can shove your "official" recognition up your ass, sorry bro

You're acting like I'm the one who invented this silly modern definition of what a sport is.