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/lit/ - Literature

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2880717 No.2880717[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Is anyone else attracted to, but ultimately unconvinced by, ordered cosmologies?

For instance: being a Buddhist or Christian and believing in a universe which is going along in a comprehensible and ultimately just way. That seems really attractive.

I mean, I don't put faith in those philosophies, but they seem very "novel" so to speak. Living your life as a monk and devoting your time to attaining ultimate knowledge (because you believe in that sort of thing, after all) seems like it'd be a fulfilling existence.

One that I'll never lead, unfortunately. But what about you, /lit/?

>> No.2880722

>>2880717
what's 'ordered cosmologies'?

>> No.2880729

>>2880722
Yeah I didn't know what to call them and I figured that'd be a problem.

When I say that, I'm basically referring to any worldview that holds existence to be operating on some just metaphysical principle(s), like Karma or Divine Law.

The idea that everything happens for a good reason, or will ultimately end in a just way, to put it in simpler terms.

>> No.2880732

I think having faith that the universe is just and comprehensible is naive, and irresponsible as it underestimates the amount of work that has to be done to protect us. But it doesn't matter because no one actually believes that or lives by it because those that do are wiped out by floods and what not.

>> No.2880734

you're describing the sophistic versions of those religions. i think the majority of theologians would say that god is able to comprehend the universe but the people are not. there's no attainment of ultimate knowledge -- there's reflective communion with god.

>> No.2880744

>>2880734
Perhaps an addendum to the post should be "*trying* to attain ultimate knowledge" or "working towards as complete an understanding of God's works as possible"

The work of the very theologians you mentioned is basically what I was referring to.

>> No.2880760
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2880760

>>2880717
>Is anyone else attracted to, but ultimately unconvinced by, ordered cosmologies?
Yes, very much so. Especially when hungover. I hunger for order and comfort then. Give me sweet Catholicism and whimpering to Mary, rosary in hand, laying on a sparse single bed in fetal position by candle light in a small room.

The need for that usually wears of pretty quickly though, and I've never actually practised religion. I just like the idea of it, but remain unconvinced. There are simply too many discrepancies between my (intuitive) convictions and Christian theology to be comfortable in such a position.

I like Buddhism very much as well, and I do consider the possibility of engaging with it somewhere in the future. Being a Buddhist monk is sort of my half concious backup plan that precedes suicide. Buddhism doesn't necessarily include the idea of a comprehensible and just universe though. Karma can also simply be seen as the law of cause and effect. But of course they do offer a comprehensive system to eliminate suffering, and that path alone can afford a person enormous amounts of comfort, I suppose. I think I could do Buddhism in the least bullshitting form. I'll just have to figure out what that is though. So far I'm thinking either Zen or Theravada. Suggestions are welcome.

Maybe it's time for some new form of Buddhism to evolve in the Western world that doesn't include things incompatible with science and such.

>> No.2880785

the universe does have a sense of order, it is a natural property of any system with moving parts.

It just doesn't mean that order identifies with morality. It is much subtler than that.

>> No.2880796

I think most people miss some kind of faith in their lives. There's nothing wrong with that either, it's
very human, and admitting it doesn't put you in one corner or the other. Ultimately it's just the desire to be free of doubt. What's often forgotten is that faith isn't usually free of doubt either.

>> No.2880797

Yeah, that's why I study religions. If I had the willpower to practice and to stop indulging in sinful behavior, I'd become a contemplative and devote myself to attaining experiential knowledge of the Divine. I still think that I will some day.

>> No.2880806

>>2880760
>Maybe it's time for some new form of Buddhism to evolve in the Western world that doesn't include things incompatible with science and such.

if you're going to fret too much about things like 'compatibility with science' there's really no point in becoming religious in the first place

>> No.2880812

>>2880785
Order/disorder is a false dichotomy. It depends on how well you are and how willing you are to see patterns, not how much there is actually there. Order is merely the amount in which a human can predict phenomena. The idea of external order is basically anthropomorphic.

>> No.2880815
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2880815

This is a positive and levelheaded opinion.

I complement you on being a measured and reasonable individual, and encourage you to keep it up.

>> No.2880840

Not really, I think I've always had a sense of fulfilment. It just took me a while to recognise it. One day this feeling will be hidden by a torrent of shit and then the shit will wash away and I'll be fine again. Simple as that. No need for 'novel' belief systems, life is fucking novel.

>> No.2880858

>>2880812
>objects exist and have been interacting with each other since the dawn of time
>therefore, a system that can be understood as "order" exists
>B- BUT THAT ANTHROPOMORPHISM!!1

Jesus Christ, you are almost as bad as the people who believe in free will

>> No.2880861

I've become more and more alone about what I believe and, simultaneously going, I've become more and more interested about different beliefs. The most unlikely and distant and absurd the better.

I was dismissing them as a "waste of time", but that is just silly. I come from the assumption that no one is bullshitting and I am the one who doesn't understand. From this perspective, I've been able to understand things better (at least this is the way I perceive it) and be more okay with the things I don't understand. I think people are obsessed about trying to understand everything and in order to do that you have to close and secure yourself in small little dogmas here and there.

>> No.2880900

I often thought it'd be interesting to attend difficult religious services but I don't know how easy it is to walk in off the street.

I'm not just talking about the usual fascination with eastern buddhism or hinduism - you know, the exotic ones. Ever since my friend at age 12 mentioned he want to church but he didn't know what 'mass' was, I always thought it was weird.Instead of going to the same catholic church every week, I wanted to see different ecumenical services perhaps on a rota basis. I always

I've read the wikipedia articles on some of the different protestant branches but there's so many and there's only so much you can learn from studying it externally.
if I was to approach catholicism from he outside, I'd only get the main tenets - the catechism. That's a good start but there's so much information given in sermons that doesn't appear in textbooks, bibles, and academic sources because it's usually a subtle insight or analogy unique to that priest's creativity. The ministers, rabbis and imams must have similar interesting ideas right?

>> No.2881143

>>2880760
>Maybe it's time for some new form of Buddhism to evolve in the Western world that doesn't include things incompatible with science and such.
The west has already done this with Zen. Just go read a book about it, claim to everyone who asks that you're a Buddhist, and live your life exactly the same way you always have.

>> No.2881146

>>2880900

Orthodox Christianity is the best Christianity.

>> No.2881149

>>2880900
Attending other religious services was actually part of the instruction I had to undergo for confirmation. While I was wholly against the confirmation itself (my parents were forcing me to do it), I feel that a lot of the things I learned were really a boon. I just wish I could have kept doing it without having to keep up the pretense of believing in anything.

>> No.2881152
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2881152

>>2880858

>> No.2881178

>>2880760
I'm a total babby Buddhist/new-ager, but I don't think there's a reason to feel that you have to *pretend* to live with Buddhist principles. Living in the present and getting outside of thought means that it doesn't really matter whether your belief system is "right."

tl;dr I'm not an expert and I don't know the words to explain what I'm trying to explain, but I suggest you do some reading/exploration.

>> No.2881182

THIS IS NOT LITERATURE

ONLY RECOMMENDATION THREADS ALLOWED

I HATE YOU YOU FUCKING FAGGOT TRY POSTING A GEORGE RR MARTIN THREAD FOR ONCE IN YOUR MISERABLE LIFE

SAGE

>> No.2881196

>>2880760
One more thing. I recommend Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now. It looks like (and, I guess, is) totally plebby, entry-level spirituality (it's got a fucking Oprah endorsement), but I found it very profound. It wont get you any /lit/ cred, but I think it's got very, very valuable ideas.

I took a meditation class in college, and my teacher recommended it.

>> No.2881240

I had a near-death experience after a month-long manic episode while writing a book, spent 7 days in a psyche ward.

Now I'm on a path to becoming a whirling dervish and full annihilation before Allah.

It's important to stay thirsty, OP.

>> No.2881251

>>2880717
The things with Christianity is, if you take the apocalyptic parts seriously, you are put into a state of hyper-moral vigilance. The affairs to this world get put on hold and postponed because "the end" is coming soon. This makes people better in some cases, in others it makes them worse. For some it inspires them to focus on what's really important and away from a materialism/rat-race mentality. For others, it makes them unable to really enjoy themselves in this world (since they see it as getting worse every day) and they are content not to fix their problems since God will fix it. This is why I personally prefer the Gnostic view of Christianity, though I find it more historically likely Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet.

This different from the mystic aspects religion, but and while a monk's life does seem simple and praiseworthy, that should be counter balanced with going out in the world and doing good things.

>> No.2881267

Does anyone know the name of this famous Jesuit theologian/philosopher from the 20th century? cant remember much other than he was the head of some sort of monastery

>> No.2881271 [DELETED] 

>incompatible with science
>incompatible with the catholic church

science is going too far

it is too overrated, too worshipped

>> No.2881284

>>2881271
Do you think it's entering areas of research it shouldn't?

Or do you have a problem with people holding it to be the end-all of intellectual investigation?

Or both?

Also, really glad to see this thread grow.

>> No.2881296

>Being Christian, or belonging to any Abrahamic religion
>Believing the world is just

Orthodox (small 'o') can only choose one.

>> No.2881324

ordered or unordered are our creation. neither one is right.
if ordered is right, then unordered is wrong. in order for order to be right, it has to negated unordered-ness.
if unordered is right, then ordered is wrong. in order for the unordered to be right, it has to negate the ordered-ness.

duality of these are circular and without any real truth. in the same sense, truth-untruth/right-wrong/left-right are merely only circular reasoning. even trying to show this with language seems futile, because language itself is based on these circular reasoning. thus to approach the universe, you have to give up both order-ness and unordered-ness.

>> No.2881328

>>2881324
I'm going to be honest: that sounds like absolute dribble.

>> No.2881335

>>2881328
Not my fault you were raised in a society that unconditionally supports duality at their base.

>> No.2881339

>>2881324
yeah you're full of shit mate

>> No.2881365

>>2881339
>>2881328
I doubt you guys know about nominalism, in any case you should investigate it if you want the "you're full of shit" to not sound like an ignorant statement out of self-defense.

>> No.2881376

>>2881328
He's basically saying you have to look at things from a non-dualistic point of view. But for this to work in a positive fashion you need a certain way of seeing life.

The true positive is what encourages spiritual growth and acquisition of knowledge, the true negative is what causes ignorance and stagnation.

>> No.2881439

I am attracted and convinced OP. I hold an ordered cosmology. Feel free to ask whatever you want.

>> No.2881726

would you fucking niggers some romanticizing sex

sex is sex it's pleasurable it is a pleasure god damn fuck subjectivity

where is jesus when you need him

>> No.2881751

karma is more like a neglected area of physics
there is nothing miraculous or supernatural
the whole equal and opposite reaction type of thing.

>> No.2881959

>>2881251
Plenty of monks do go out in the world and do good things.

>> No.2881963

>>2880858
>objects exist

Seriously? You're in no position to call people out on their bullshit.

>> No.2881964

>>2881751
The "equal and opposite reaction" thing (aka Newton's third law) doesn't really apply outside of classical mechanics, you know that right? You don't really seem to understand things that are pretty simple, you're overdoing it. You don't happen to be a drug abuser or "philosopher" do you?

>> No.2881994

>>2881963
>"I don't believe in reality but even while I type this my body is still acting according to observable phenomena"

>> No.2882086

>>2881751
Depends on what type of karma you want to bring out. There are 3 ancient definition.
Jain Karma = very small subtle fundamental physical properties of the universe that attaches to a person's soul.

Buddhist Karma = phenomena that describes the nature of cause-effect, not necessarily a physical/immaterial thing but rather something like a concept

Hindu Karma = will of the god (theistic) or cause-effect(non-theistic) depending on different hindu schools