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/lit/ - Literature

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2804337 No.2804337[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

There are too many resemblances between The Bible and The Lord of the Rings for it to be coincidental.

I have a hard time believing Tolkien didn't have something at least a little Christian in mind.

>> No.2804348
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2804348

>692 posts and 129 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.

>> No.2804345

But it is a known fact that he used a lot of Christian themes, it's not even something controversial or anything, but an inspiration to him.

>> No.2804349

Any work can be interpreted as Christian allegory dumbass. Fucking Frog and Toad and Friends is about the fucking book of Matthew if you really want to make it that.

>> No.2804351

That image combines Reddit way of arguing with Tumblr lingo.

I'm not sure what that's doing here, on 4chan's prestigious literature board.

>> No.2804352

>>2804345

Tolkein said his books = "neither allegory nor fable"

>> No.2804353

Tolkien was pretty Christian.

UBERMENSCH MODE: he was also an anarchist. Find those themes.

>> No.2804360

>>2804353

He wasn't an anarchist, he was a classist. Bilbo was a great guy who was also rich, and so were the elves. Not like those orcs, who were poor as shit. Poor people like Sam were loyal servants of rich assholes like Frodo. And so on.

>> No.2804365

this is funny because i'm taking a class about this over summer semester

not even shitting

>> No.2804378

>>2804352
I'm not saying it was neither of those. I'm saying the story of LotR was inspired by christian ideas.

And I couldn't care less about the author's intent anyway. If you're falling for that, then that's the mistake.

It's interesting to see though, that none of the characters really pray directly. You don't see hobbits going to church or having a cult. In Middle Earth, the magic is all present and the relationship between the real struggle and the numinous experience vanishes completely. Fighting next to Gandalf is already a god-like experience and you wouldn't pray for him to appear if you can just call him.

>> No.2804387

He was a massive Christian. He's the one who got C.S. Lewis into God and such.
He didn't write the books as an allegory or anything, but of course he would have, even subconsciously, included themes from the important things in his life.

>> No.2804400

>>2804360

"My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning the abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs)—or to ‘unconstitutional’ Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word State (in any sense other than the inanimate real of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate! If we could go back to personal names, it would do a lot of good."
- letter to his son Christopher Tolkien, 1943

So you're arguing that he was depicting a satyr of the conventionally held stereotypes within English society? Or are you saying that he flew flipped his desk over after writing that letter while shouting "I don't give a FUCK." ?

>> No.2804403

Yeah, the Bible ripped Tolkien off pretty good.

>> No.2804428

>>2804403

I actually thought Bakshi's Lord of the Rings was one of those Christian bible cartoons when I first saw it. Something about the narration style and animation reminded me of the biblically based cartoon shit that used to come on when I was channel surfing Sunday mornings.

>> No.2804472

Let's summarize the 300 other threads we've had about this. Tolkein was a devout christian, and his novel reflects christian ideology in its themes. If it's an allegory, however, it's a sloppy and pointless one. More likely, you are recognizing common archetypes and character roles which are shared by the bible and by Lord of the Rings, as well as by many and arguably all other stories. Please enjoy the following wikipedia link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces

>> No.2804473

>>2804403
Troll harder.

But yeah, Tolkien was a devout christian. It's even more fucking obvious in The Silmarillion, but as a long-standing atheist one of the things I love about his stuff is that IMO unlike a lot of other obviously christian authors, he uses christian concepts and values without trying to shove them down your throat to try and preach you to convert or some other shit.

>> No.2804481
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2804481

>There was applicability as Tolkien says, in that things in his work were applicable to reality and to Christianity but only because he believed there were truths echoed in all mythology and that Christianity held the most fundamental truths. You could compare characters in his stories to God, Christ and Lucifer but you miss how they also relate to characters such as Zeus, Hercules, Odin and so on and so forth. Different aspects of his work reflect the truths he saw in all the mythologies he studied but he doesn't take them directly from the mythologies themselves. Instead he used the truths that linked them, blended them together and created his own reality whose laws and truths were by consequence applicable to many you'd find in different mythologies and religions. These truths were included because Tolkien believed they were how a reality should work, and what a reality needs to operate, and that has a lot to do with the formation of languages.

>> No.2804485

>>2804473
>he uses christian concepts and values without trying to shove them down your throat to try and preach you to convert or some other shit.

FYI, that's part of the reason why Tolkien hated the Chronicles of Narnia.

C. S. Lewis was one of Tolkien's best friends, but Tolkien said that the Narnia books were "as bad as they possibly could have been."

>> No.2804488

>>2804378
You'd be hard pressed to find a piece of Western literature that didn't seem to have Christian or by your own typical Western reading practices which will gravitate toward identifying those themes regardless of their actual presence.

Every hero character who commits any sort of self sacrifice can of course be considered a Christ figure. Hell, the Fellowship is made up of Christ figures: Gandalf dies and is reborn, Aragorn is the king who returns as a conquering lion, Frodo bears a cross.

These aspects of the story could easily be tied to other, older mythical, religious, and literary traditions, but the easiest association is Christian. Which, now that I think of it, has probably got a lot to do with how Christianity sopped up other traditions.

>> No.2804496

>>2804488
>Aragorn is the king who returns as a conquering lion

That doesn't sound like Jesus.

I've heard that Gandalf, Frodo, and Sam are the three big Christ-like figures in LotR.

Gandalf as Christ the teacher, Frodo as Christ the sacrificial victim, and Sam as Christ the humble and faithful servant.

>> No.2804510

>>2804496

Someone needs to go back and review their Bible, especially Isaiah and Revelation.

Remember, Jesus was supposedly from the Tribe of Judah, which was symbolized by the lion.

>> No.2804517

>>2804510
Yeah at the end of the world Jesus is supposed to appear in glory and whatnot but the Jesus in the Gospels is not a conqueror.

>> No.2804524

>>2804517

There's... more to Jesus than what appears in the Gospels? I dunno what your point is.

>> No.2804526

For an anti-religion person you sure are preachy.

>> No.2804534

>>2804488
>You'd be hard pressed to find a piece of Western literature that didn't seem to have Christian or by your own typical Western reading practices which will gravitate toward identifying those themes regardless of their actual presence.
Yeah, ttrue. What about that? I just think LotR has more than usual.

And yet I must admit I was not thinking of the coming back and the self sacrifice. As you said, it is tied to other stories. The coming back is part of all heroic journeys. I don't even think of Jesus on that one.

I think the temptation of Sauron is too similar to the temptation of Satan, for example. It is very characteristic.

And of course, as LotR was also a lot based on norse and pagan mythology, you are able to compare LotR with those mythologies and everything that doesn't fit probably has to do with something christian.

>>2804510
>Someone needs to go back and review their Bible
You gave yourself away with that one...

>> No.2804556

I do believe in Harry Potter tho so...

>> No.2804578

Tolkien was a hardline, believing Catholic. The Lord of the Rings was not allegory or parable, but it was certainly infused with the deep Catholicism of its creator. It's also certainly connected to his conception of England and has elements of class in it. Tolkien was writing in a tradition of English literature, a tradition of Catholic / High Church, rural, conservative, agrarian, Tories - a tradition including for instance Burke, Johnson, Newman, Gerard Manley Hopkins - and he was, fundamentally, writing in response to the shocks of modernity and the first World War. These are basic facts for understanding Tolkien.

>> No.2804659

I dont real western books because all western books are christian influenced

>> No.2804735

Tolkien's influences were historical epics, so he wouldn't have been drawing a division between the influences of the bible and the rest of his influences - you know, as they were of the same literary tradition. Obviously, his readings of the bible would've been the most impacting. Thus, you get resemblances, just like you'll find resemblances with the Iliad, the Odyssey and Beowulf, though not as many.

>> No.2804739

>>2804659
i don't read christian books because all christian books are jewish influenced

>> No.2805488

The reason J.K. Rowling never talked about religion much was because, even though Potter is a highly Christian work, she didn't want her books to have lower sales. She knew about the anti-religion slant in modern society.

>> No.2805500

>>2804337

Science is just another form of magic.

You don't believe in Stargate do you? Then why believe Isaac Newton? O'Neill could kick Newton's ass! He beat the fucking Goa'uld.

Enjoy your pleb logic.

>> No.2805506
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2805506

>>2805500

>Science is just another form of magic.

OP is a fucking dipshit and what's with this "pleb" crap. Some stupid Great England thing.

>> No.2805514

>>2805506

1/10 made me reply

>> No.2806107

>>2804534
>You gave yourself away with that one...

Actually I'm an atheist, if you meant to imply that I'm a wingnut bible-beater, but I read the bible regularly. Because I like it.

...It also helps to be familiar with it when reading basically anything any western writer has ever written. since

>> No.2806108

>I have a hard time believing Tolkien didn't have something at least a little Christian in mind.

Please, gently kill yourself.

>> No.2806125

>>2804472
I love how /lit/ is, you just gave them the ending sentence, but they keep pressing on a useless discussion.

>> No.2806161

how do you know something like harry potter doesn't exist in some alternate universe? Also theres a huge difference in believing in a God and Harry Potter and if you can't see the it then thats your problem.

>> No.2806170

>>2805500
I do believe in Stargate. And Harry Potter. The government is hiding things! WAKE UP SHEEPLE! The Stargate is real & so is magic. WHAT ARE THEY SO DESPERATE TO HIDE? These things are fed to popular entertainment and turned into MASSIVE HITS to DISGUISE the real truth! Stargate concept was GIVEN to CIA Plant Roland Emmerich! Harry Potter Plotline was GIVEN to notorious MI-5 operative JK Rowling! Some alien encounters are hoaxes perpetrated by the government to manipulate the public. Some of these hoaxes are intentionally revealed to manipulate the truth-seekers who become discredited if they disclose the deliberately absurd deception! DO NOT FALL FOR THEIR TRICKS

>> No.2806391

Uh, you know that Middle-earth was supposed to be a reconciliation between the Bible and pagan mythologies, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eru_Il%C3%BAvatar

>> No.2806397

There are too many resemblances between The Bible and Lolita for it to be coincidental.

>> No.2807205

The Lord of the Rings is a profoundly Christian work.

>> No.2807209

>>2807205
And white supremacists consider it to be a profoundly Nordic wor; hippies, to be their predecessor; occultists, to contain initiatic teachings; the average middle class mom, to contain moral lessons for her children, etc.

>> No.2807212

>>2807209

To be fair Hobbiton is a bit like a commune.

>> No.2807220

Fun Fact: Tolkien was a devout Catholic; when the English started reading in English he would repeat it obstinately in Latin, to the embarrassment of his son.

>> No.2807222

>>2807212

...no? If anything it's paean to the traditional English village. Tolkein fucking loved the countryside and, like many intellectuals, idealized the village life.

>> No.2807228

>>2807222

I think you both are wrong. The shire has a great deal of classism and people (well, hobbits) acting like right nosy cunts. Just like any neighborhood with greedy, prying neighbors who love talking shit.

>> No.2807234

>>2807228

Not like they had TV or anything else to do, plus a clannish society where knowing who is related to who is of great importance, I agree with >>2807222, it's an idealization of the English hamlet/village life.

Another Fun Fact: Sam Gamgee was supposed to be much more retarded but Tolkien's experiences with young countryside men fighting in the trenches changed his mind to put in a more heroic part to Sam's character.

>> No.2807246

Tolkien was a christian but he hated the straight allegory that his friend C.S Lewis used in LOTR.

You're going to find a lot of parts of LOTR deal with the battle between Good and Evil, but though there will be a lot that is connected, you won't find any metaphors that are completely analogous.

For example, RotK involves the return of a righteous ruler but Aragorn isn't Jesus,
Gandalf returns from the Dead, but Gandalf isn't Jesus,
Sauron is a tempter who offers power and was formerly a higher being, But Sauron isn't Satan,
You could keep on going.

I doubt Tolkien would be angry about his works being interpreted in that way, but they weren't written with any singular coherent allegory in mind.
It's more of a loose jumble of themes.

>> No.2807279

>>2807246

Lewis didn't use direct allegory. More supposition. As in, "suppose" that a figure like Jesus existed in another world. Aslan isn't = Jesus directly, he's just a lot like Jesus. You could say the children represent apostles but there's no direct correlation imo. Besides which Lewis subverts the story of the Fall pretty heavily by changing the ending in The Magician's Nephew.

>> No.2807335

>>2807246

>Lewis

He was pretty blunt about his Christian themes, but it's not enough of an allegory for everything to match up equally.

>> No.2807354

>>2807335

Regardless of degree, the point is Tolkien felt what Lewis was doing with Narnia was distasteful.

>> No.2807359

>>2807354

Of course Lewis was distasteful. He was a racist, sexist bigot, and several of his minor villains (and one major one) are unrealistic strawman liberals.

>> No.2807363

>>2807354
And Tolkien was right.

Lewis is an idiot and Narnia is completely disgusting.

>> No.2807376

>>2807363

I think Pullman was the person who had the most pointedly accurate criticisms of Narnai.

>> No.2807406

He was an incredibly devout Catholic, you twit. I hope it all make sense now.
Also, that pic makes me rage. I'm an agnostic myself, but I don't see the point in being so antagonistic and offensive to a group of people who simply want to believe in something greater than themselves.

>> No.2807413

>>2807359

Wait, which character was the strawman liberal? I remember everything you mentioned except that.

>> No.2807415

>>2807413

The headmistress of Experiment House, Eustace, and the parents of Eustance and Jill respectively were all strawman liberals. As for major villains, Shift was making the typical pluralist argument common among liberals that all faiths deserve equal respect.