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/lit/ - Literature

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2755407 No.2755407 [Reply] [Original]

In terms of prose who is the best writer of all time?

>> No.2755409

anonymous

>> No.2755422

Hard question, but I think the following writers can aspire:
Leo Tolstoy
James Joyce
Gabriel García Marquez
Marcel Proust
William Faulkner

>> No.2755424

Joyce Carol Oates

>> No.2755432

>>2755422
>Marcel Proust.
No.

>> No.2755433

mccarthy

dat flow

>> No.2755434
File: 112 KB, 432x300, Faulkner.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2755434

>> No.2755445

>>2755424
I think I agree with this fine anon's opinion. Joyce carol Oates, particularly her gothic books, like Bellefleur, have smashing prose. Haven't read any James Joyce, or Pynchon for that matter, yet. Proust is also a master.

>> No.2755450

>>2755422
>listing non-English authors

We'd have to list one for each language then. Prose don't work like that.

>> No.2755453

Fitzgerald?

>> No.2755455

>>2755450
We might well have to, yes.

>> No.2755459

>>2755432
Do you even French?

>> No.2755461

The Angry video game Nerd obviously.

>> No.2755463

>>2755459
I bet he's never frenched even once in his life

(This was too easy.)

>> No.2755470

>>2755445
Yeah, while most people aren't going to say Pynchon was GoAT, he is great at writing words. I only recently read /The Crying of Lot 49/, and he's very brilliant. For some reason I thought it was set in the future though.

>> No.2755473

>>2755463
I don't understand.

>> No.2755478

Mark Danielewski
:DDDDDDDD

>> No.2755481

>>2755422
>Tolsyoy
nope.jpg

>> No.2755508

Shakespeare's Hamlet hasn't really been topped in terms of prose.

As much as I love Faulkner, he is not even close to being the best prose writer. Tolstoy is pretty close.

>> No.2755517

>>2755508

Hamlet is a verse work. Not prose.

>> No.2755519

Lorrie Moore has written my most favorite-ly written novel in a long time.

>> No.2755524

>>2755517

It's actually a combination of both.

>> No.2755527

>>2755519
I nominate this guy.

>> No.2755541

the answer is James Joyce. He gets the balance just right: not too flowery, not too sparse; just perfectly delicate and expressive, with unmatchable diction.

>> No.2755552

>>2755541

If you think you can describe Joyce's style like that, you should read more Joyce.

His style was not having a style.

>> No.2755555

>>2755541
The prose of 'Eveline' I still hold to be some of the most beautiful I have ever read.

>> No.2755556

>CtrlF 'Nabokov'
>0 results
>que?

>> No.2755559
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2755559

Tao Lin. I'm not joking.

>> No.2755561

>>2755541
I really disliked Portrait. It was a dull, pretentious, pseudo-intellectual slog with a predictable story. However, it gave some small insight in what it would be like to live back then. Other than that, I really don't see why everyone likes it so much

>> No.2755568
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2755568

>>2755556
Pic very much related.

>> No.2755572

>>2755559
Hey Tao, how are you doing?

>> No.2755573

>>2755561
>pseudo-intellectual
You're going to have to enlighten me on that.

>> No.2755579

>>2755573
he makes references to everything, to appear intelligent. In order to appear intellectual, you don't need to have SO many references. It struck me as overkill, at attempting to appear clever.

>> No.2755582

I sometimes wish Joyce had written a full length novel in the style of Dubliners. Portrait doesn't really convey as much of the mastery of rhythm that Dubliners has.

>> No.2755583

>>2755561
the way that you think you have the right to dismiss james joyce (james joyce!) as a pseudo-intellectual presumably means you believe you're smarter than him?

>> No.2755585

>>2755583
not at all. i'm just implying that he was trying too hard to appear clever, by making so many references to obscure things.

>> No.2755590

>>2755582

You can actually read Dubliners as a novel. It's not really like a disconnected bunch of short stories that were collected.

In fact, I read Dubliners in a senior level course studying the British novel. So yeah.

>> No.2755592

>>2755579
The references enrich the work. That a poor Dubliner's life could be painted through those sweeping allegorical references is kind of the point. It's the same in Ulysses. He's not just saying "look at me I'm so smart and I know all these things". Projection much?

>> No.2755598
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2755598

>>2755590
>the British novel
Fucking Americans.

>> No.2755604

>>2755592
I don't really see it that way.
And no, it's not a projection, since when I write, I barely make any references, because I feel as though a really great novel should be timeless.

>> No.2755606

>>2755585
I see it more as what happens when you put free association to paper. None of those references are all that obscure. It says a lot about what happened to levels of knowledge amongst intelligent young people that you would think they were.

>> No.2755608

>>2755604
>implying a shitload of timeless literature doesn't make reference to either the bible or greek mythology

>> No.2755612

Hemingway and McCarthy, in my opinion at least.
They're both simple and readable. Good prose do not need to be poetic or flowery.

>> No.2755621

>>2755612
Hemingway is a master at his own style of prose, and I love reading him.
McCarthy I still have to get to.

>> No.2755617

>>2755598
I think he did that to rustle jimmies. You know, for the craic Jim me boyo...or he is a gobshite....

>> No.2755618

>>2755606
Are you implying that I should know in detail about 19th century Irish history, for everyday use?
>>2755608
note OBSCURE references. Ones that are only valid in the time of which the novel or work was written. The bible and greek mythology themselves are old enough to transcend validity of time of writing, since they are always valid.

>> No.2755624

>>2755508

>Shakespeare
>Prose

Pick one you stupid fucking cunt

>> No.2755625

>>2755617
ah to be sure to be sure

>> No.2755626

My vote goes to Jeffery Eugenedes. Hate me all you like.

>> No.2755627

>>2755618
Irish history is incredibly interesting. That you would dismiss wanting to know about it so offhandedly once again offers an insightful glance at your general lack of character.

>> No.2755629

>>2755621
I guess you're right with the "master of his own style" thing. No authors could do it like him. I guess it would be simpler to say that his specific form of prose is far superior to any author.
The problem with a lot of authors is that they elaborate on everything, giving no room for thought or imagination. Hemingway makes people think, which is what I love.

>> No.2755630

>>2755624
The way Shakespeare wrote is technically prose. It certainly ain't verse.

>> No.2755633

Joyce's prose is fuck-awful. Dubliners is such a dated piece of shit that it's unreadable. Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man is so juvenile and teenage that it's unreadable. Ulysses is so fucking boring that it's unreadable, and Finnegans Wake is just straight-out unreadable.

The only reason anyone reads Joyce these days is because they're told to, and because they think they should.

The man was a hack.

>> No.2755634

>>2755629
He made his Iceberg Theory work for him in a frighteningly effective way, yes.

>> No.2755640
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2755640

>>2755633
>the cat's out of the bag
>the emperor has no clothes

>> No.2755641

>>2755627
I'm not dismissing it offhandedly. It may be incredibly interesting, but feel as though to enjoy a book, one shouldn't have to know loads about the period in which it was written. For instance, The Canterbury Tales is excellent, because it makes so few references to the period that it was written in, and still can be enjoyed today by someone who knows fuck all about British history.

>> No.2755642

>>2755630

Hamlet, Act I

SCENE II. A room of state in the castle.

Enter KING CLAUDIUS, QUEEN GERTRUDE, HAMLET, POLONIUS, LAERTES, VOLTIMAND, CORNELIUS, Lords, and Attendants

KING CLAUDIUS

Though yet of Hamlet our dear brother's death
The memory be green, and that it us befitted
To bear our hearts in grief and our whole kingdom
To be contracted in one brow of woe,
Yet so far hath discretion fought with nature
That we with wisest sorrow think on him,
Together with remembrance of ourselves.
Therefore our sometime sister, now our queen,
The imperial jointress to this warlike state,
Have we, as 'twere with a defeated joy,--
With an auspicious and a dropping eye,
With mirth in funeral and with dirge in marriage,
In equal scale weighing delight and dole,--
Taken to wife: nor have we herein barr'd
Your better wisdoms, which have freely gone
With this affair along. For all, our thanks.
Now follows, that you know, young Fortinbras,
Holding a weak supposal of our worth,
Or thinking by our late dear brother's death
Our state to be disjoint and out of frame,
Colleagued with the dream of his advantage,
He hath not fail'd to pester us with message,
Importing the surrender of those lands
Lost by his father, with all bonds of law,
To our most valiant brother. So much for him.

If you don't think that's verse, then you are fucking retarded. It's even called BLANK VERSE to help the hard-of-thinking to work it out.

This board gets more and more stupid every fucking day.

>> No.2755645

>>2755641
There is enjoyment in learning and knowing. Maybe reading just isn't for you?

>> No.2755646
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2755646

>>2755627

>Irish
>History

huehuehuehuehuehuehue

>> No.2755648

>>2755572
I think he may genuinely have been in this thread.
>>2754263

>> No.2755647

>>2755641
You clearly didn't read the Penguin Joyces which have lots of helpful notes at the back

>> No.2755650

>>2755646
Confirmed for either American or retard

Captcha: Pontiac bummore
Take that advice.

>> No.2755651

>>2755645
no sir, I love reading, I just have an intrinsic dislike of nonfiction. Perhaps it's that i read to escape my life, as oppose to read to become more intelligent. And no, I don't read too much fantasy or sci-fi.

>> No.2755652
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2755652

>>2755647

>write a book that can't stand on its own without extensive comment and annotation
>everybody thinks I'm a genius.

hello James, Thomas and David, come on in, people will always fall for this shit.

>> No.2755653

>>2755646


I was born on a Dublin street where the Royal drums do beat
And the loving English feet they walked all over us,
And every night when me da come home tight
He'd invite the neighbors outside with this chorus:
Oh, come out you black and tans,
Come out and fight me like a man
Show your wife how you won medals fown in Flanders
Tell them how the IRA
Made you run like hell away,
From the green and lovely lanes in Killashandra.
Come let us hear you tell
How you slammed the great Pernell,
When you fought them well and truly persecuted,
Where are the smears and jeers
That you loudly let us hear
When our heroes of sixteen were executed.
Come tell us how you slew
Those old Arabs two by two
Like the Zulus they had spears and bows and arrows,
How you bravely slew each one
With your sixteen pounder gun
And you frightened them damn natives to their marrow.
now the time is coming fast
And i think them days are here
When each yeoman will be cast aside before us,
And if there be a need
im sure our kids will sin god speed
With a verse or two of Steven Beehan's chorus.

>> No.2755657

>>2755653

Thanks for proving my point. The history of Ireland is the history of England.

and the Black and Tan were one of the best things to ever happen to that godforsaken island. I wish they'd wiped the paddies out before genocide became unfashionable.

>> No.2755658
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2755658

>>2755652
But that's not why everyone thinks he's a genius.

>> No.2755660

>>2755642
>the hard-of-thinking

And a new epithet for /lit/ is born.

>> No.2755662
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2755662

>>2755657
Brits and Americans be jelly that the land of Saints and Scholars be stylin on them.

>> No.2755663

>>2755657
>Implying Ireland doesn't have the oldest literary tradition of Western Europe
>Implying the English only started colonizing Ireland in 14th century and only very slowly expanded

>> No.2755664

>>2755650

Nope - I'm British. I just fucking hate the micks. Bunch of fucking cunts.

>> No.2755665

>>2755662

>land of Saints and Scholars

If "saints and scholars" means "violent, drunken wife-beaters" then you're correct.

>> No.2755666
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2755666

>>2755664
>dat British obsession

>> No.2755668

>>2755664
Then you of all people should be ashamed at not knowing anything about the people your forefathers oppressed for 500 years.
And the people who gave you the best footballer on your shabby team.

>> No.2755672

>>2755665
Ay, we've fallen a long way since the glory days of 1500 years ago, but moments of brilliance flash through on occasion. Note that Ireland has higher standards of living on average when compared to both Britain and America, so be careful not to get too jelly.

>> No.2755674

>>2755665
>wife-beaters
I've always been confused by this stereotype. There is a MASSIVE social stigma in Ireland about being violent with women.

>> No.2755678

>>2755668
>>2755668

I know as much as I need to know:

Ireland: land of savages, bog-people and peat fires. People living in benighted savagery until the arrival of the English when they bent over faster than the welsh and largely joined the army of their oppressors as an alternative to starving in the swamp at home, occasionally fucking the family pig for entertainment.

Segue to modern times: recalcitrant, ungrateful mick bastards start blowing the shit out of everything, despite the fact that they have to use the language of their oppressors to express themselves. When they finally give up, mass whining ensues, then the country loses its money (typically Irish and feckless), and begs the rest of Europe to bail them out while still maintaining a national myth of proud independence.

Close, or bang on correct?

>And the people who gave you the best footballer on your shabby team

I have no fucking idea what you're talking about, because I couldn't give a fuck about 22 dudes hoofing a ball about for 90 minutes. If some football player is the best you can provide for recent Irish culture, then thanks for proving me right, you butthurt bog-trotter you.

>> No.2755679
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2755679

>invent chemistry, economics, and the very best of modern literature
>the English hate you for it
It's not easy being green.

>> No.2755681

>>2755674

Yeah, but there are a lot of women walking into doors all the time. I guess the Irish are just thick, after all.

>> No.2755682

>>2755678
>Mfw I'm Dutch and usually fond of the British

>> No.2755683

Martin Amis is the best prose stylist.

>> No.2755684

>>2755678
ahahahahaha, you so wrong it funny. you funny mayn
you funny

>> No.2755688

>>2755679

Economics: Adam Smith (Scotland)

Chemistry: Robert Boyle (English, father owned large tracts of Ireland because the Irish were not to be trusted with it).

Modern Literature: Hemingway wasn't Irish, you thick paddy cunt.

>> No.2755689
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2755689

>>2755688
>hemingway

>> No.2755690

>>2755682


Ik ben Engels, en ik heb echt een hekel aan kut Nederlanders.

What now, flikker?

>> No.2755691

>>2755688
You best be trolling Tommy.

>> No.2755692

nationalism is for smart people

>> No.2755694

>>2755690
Go ahead, so do I.

>> No.2755696

>>2755694

wat een slim kikkertje. goed gedaan, klojo.

>> No.2755697
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2755697

>>2755688
>Adam Smith
Richard Cantillon had him beat by about 50 years. Get your head in the game, son.
>Robert Boyle
>born in Ireland
>mother was Irish
>spoke Irish
>b-b-but he was English...
>Hemingway
>HEMINGWAY
>mfw

>> No.2755701
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2755701

>>2755688
>Hemingway

>> No.2755702

>>2755624
It's pretty well known that some of Shakespeare's characters are speaking prose, not in verse. Educate yourself.

>> No.2755703

>>2755696
I must say your brand of Dutch is incredibly entertaining.

>> No.2755704

>>2755701
It's not trolling, it's banter

>> No.2755705

>>2755697
>implying Irish is a language

>> No.2755706

>>2755705
>implying irish is a language
wat

>> No.2755715

>>2755702

Since I actually do have an education, allow me to enlighten you a little:

Prose is used in Shakespeare generally to express the fact that the speaker is a low-born, uneducated churl (you, for example, would speak in prose in a Shakespeare play).

The majority of speech is, however, in verse or song. You should try reading some Shakespeare: Midsummer Night's Dream is probably easy enough and childish enough in its themes to entertain you. If you do manage to get through more than a few pages, then note that the Rude Mechanicals performing the play within a play all speak prose, but they are in fact the only people who do so. It's to show that they are cretins.

There: education, and it won't cost you a penny. you fucking thick twat

>> No.2755716
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2755716

>>2755705
>go gcomharthaí tú ní

>> No.2755721

>>2755716
I'm guessing that means something along the lines of 'go fuck yourself'?

>> No.2755723
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2755723

>>2755705
>mo aghaidh nuair

>> No.2755724

>>2755715
All that long post does is confirm that the prior poster was correct in their statement

>> No.2755725

>>2755723
Careful, now.

>> No.2755729

>>2755527
>>2755519
Lorrie Moore looks promising. Thanks for introducing her.

>> No.2755731

>>2755729
Meanwhile, OP carries on splendidly.

>> No.2755735

>>2755729
Can someone who's read her recommend one of "A Gate at the Stairs" or "The Moons of Jupiter"?

>> No.2755748 [DELETED] 
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2755748

>>2755705
>ag tabhairt le fios nach bhfuil sí
my grammars

>> No.2755749

>>2755556

>CtrlF 'Nabokov'
>1 results
>¿qué?

>> No.2755758
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2755758

>>2755705
>ag tabhairt le fios nach bhfuil sí
my grammars

>> No.2755761

>>2755716

Call that a fucking language?

and I'm fairly sure that's fucking shit Irish anyway, gb2"school"

>> No.2755762

>>2755703

I learnt as much of that viese taal as I needed. It's like German's retarded little brother. Ik heb geen flauw idee waarom ik heb het geprobeerd.

>> No.2755771

>>2755761
That's why >>2755758 was posted.

>> No.2755794
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2755794

>>2755771

ITT: Taigs, micks and bog-trotters abjectly fail to speak their own "language".

>> No.2755797

i french you cunts. but i also english and german. Zola it is!

>> No.2755805

>>2755797

I don't think you can french somebody's cunt. It's like a different thing, dude.

>> No.2755816

>>2755794
>implying it's not some American-Irish making a bollocks of it

>> No.2755838

>Implying the best writer of all time isn't García Márquez in terms of prose

>> No.2755856

>>2755838
lol, either he's pretty much the only spanish writer you've read or you're championing a translator as the best writer in the world.

both are hilariously retarded.

>> No.2755862

>>2755816

>implying that makes any difference.
>implying that anything which involves the Irish doesn't always end up in a bollocks like their entire shit-hole of a country

>> No.2755874

>>2755862
>http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-quality-of-life-map.html
Even more UK jelly.

>> No.2755891

>>2755856
Well, considering I'm from Cuba and currently living in Spain I can say I know spanish well enough to read. You're such a fucking faggot.

>> No.2755908
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2755908

>>2755874

>implying that it's not at someone else's expense.

Ireland is the homeless, sponging vagrant of Europe. The only time you ever make any money is when you're putting up scaffolding in England, and now the Poles have screwed you out of that by being cheaper and more intelligent.

>mfw I'm implying it's possible to be less intelligent than a mick builder

>> No.2755910

>>2755891

Fuck, that's a long way to go on a raft made out of oil-drums and semen. What happened? You paddle the wrong way? Florida is to the WEST, you monkey.

>> No.2755913

>>2755891
so you're just not very well read then, that's ok.

>> No.2755915

I seriously can't believe that only one guy in this thread has mentioned Nabokov. I hate this fucking board.

>> No.2755916

>>2755908
You have 10 seconds to name a relevant british novelist from the 20th century. lel

>> No.2755926

>>2755915
Eh, people usually don't post who they think is the best in these threads. Nabokov is just so obviously good that it doesn't make sense to even mention him.

>> No.2755927

To be honest, the best writers with the best prose are usually musicians. Even if some of the lyrics make you say "What the hell?" a good portion of them have to write the lyrics to fit the rhythms and tunes they set up. Its not just like writing something that rhymes, or is free-form. And yes, we have stuff like Beiber's "Baby, baby" where it took like four people to write the lyrics to it, and it's god-awful bad, but what about things like "Sweating Bullets" from Megadeth or even "Wrapped around your finger" by the Police? They are not only catchy, but there are other things going on in them that show the music is more diverse than just catchy cliche'...

>> No.2755932
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2755932

>>2755927
>the best prose are usually musicians
>prose
>lyrics
>"Sweating Bullets" from Megadeth or even "Wrapped around your finger" by the Police

>> No.2755933
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2755933

>>2755927

>> No.2755944

>>2755794
Nope, I succeeded.

>>2755816
I think you're confused by the Lucky Charms. No, I haven't eaten them either. You could say it was ironic.

>>2755862
That must be why Ireland has the fourth-highest GDP per capita in Europe as of 2011, higher than the United Kingdom.

>> No.2755946

>>2755916

Rudyard Kipling
John Galsworthy
T.S. Eliot (technically british, not English, but meh).
Winston Churchill
William Golding
Harold Pinter

(and that's only the ones who won the Nobel Prize).

WH Auden
George Orwell
Graham Swift
John Fowles
Philip Larkin
Kinglsy Amis

the list goes on, but I'm bored now.

and if we're talking British and not english then Seamus fucking Heaney Ulster is part of Britain, deal with it, cunt

>> No.2755950

>>2755946
>and if we're talking British and not english then Seamus fucking Heaney Ulster is part of Britain, deal with it, cunt
Have you ever read Heaney? I reaaaaaaally don't think he thinks of himself as British.

>> No.2755952

>>2755944

>That must be why Ireland has the fourth-highest GDP per capita in Europe as of 2011

It is, however, now 2012, and I'm not sure if you noticed, but the Irish "economy" has gone cunt-up in a big way.

are these Irishfags trying to prove the stereotype of the thick paddy? This arsehole doesn't even know what fucking year it is lol

>> No.2755954

Cervantes

>> No.2755957

>>2755952
We were tits up in 2011 and we still beat ye fuckers anyway.

>> No.2755958

>>2755950

Of course I've read Heaney - I went to a proper school rather than propping my schoolbooks on the back of the pig while my "da" raped me.

I don't care what the fuck ulster "people" think they are - they're British, and if they forget it, we'll just send the fucking army back in to remind them.

>> No.2755963

>>2755958
You mad that the best poet of the last 50 years jumped to us because he found you lot so disgusting?

>> No.2755991
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2755991

>>2755963

Not especially - one mick going home is basically a good start. I wifh the other three million of you would become "disgusted" with England fuck off back to the bogs as well. Filthy animals.

>> No.2756005

>>2755952
We don't have statistics for 2012 and I did you the service of telling you that these statistics were from 2011. The Irish economy has not shrank significantly in 2012, maybe 0.2%. The Irish economy's real recession happened in 2008-9, the same time as the global financial crisis. I would have assumed you knew this.

>> No.2756010
File: 132 KB, 404x374, irish_twat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2756010

>>2756005

>has not shrank

dat oirish edumacation

Then again, it is like 5 o'clock in Ireland, so I'll assume you're already drunk off your arse.

>> No.2756013

>>2756010
>being a prescriptivist
And you're calling the Irish backwards?

>> No.2756015

>>2756013

You realise that complaining about "prescriptivism" is basically saying "I R 2 DUM FUR GRAMMA", right?

Taking a wild guess, you're Irish, yeah?

>> No.2756017

>>2756015
>complaining about prescriptivism is basically say "I R 2 DUM FUR GRAMMA", right?
Whatever helps you sleep at night mate.

>> No.2756021

>>2756017

I'm not your mate, Declan. Go fuck yourself.

>> No.2756025

>>2756010
Well, you got me there. I guess you win the argument.

>> No.2756027
File: 37 KB, 486x599, 486px-Goethe_%28Stieler_1828%29[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2756027

>> No.2756352

>>2755794
I thought I should clarify that >>2755758 (and >>2755771) is not the same person as >>2755716. The reason I thought my post necessary was because the first was ill written.

I was wondering why obviously ignorant people were asserting that I had made a grammatical mistake.
Also, trolls everywhere.

>> No.2756392
File: 109 KB, 783x377, hell-fuk-yeah-eccbc87e4b5ce2fe28308fd9f2a7baf3-420.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2756392

Motherfucking John Steinbeck

>> No.2756418

>>2756392

>> No.2756421

Patrick White

>> No.2756990

Anon, you should have made a no mention of Shakespeare rule.

>> No.2756994

Too bad Nabokov wrote a shitty erotica novel.

>> No.2757022

Gibbon. Nabokov. Melville.

Salinger.