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/lit/ - Literature

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2723915 No.2723915 [Reply] [Original]

Thanks for the theological discussion last night, guys. It's cool to know there are other Christians on this board.

>> No.2723998

god doesn't exist, LOL

>> No.2724003
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2724003

>>2723998
Looks like someone's going to burn.

>> No.2724030

>>2723915
You have been reading too much fantasy fiction. You are starting to lose touch with reality.

>> No.2724042

I believe in a God, OP. I don't know why there are so many hard-core atheists who hate the Idea of a God. I don't think you should actively follow christianity though.

>> No.2724046

whenever i see people discussing theology i can't help but feel the same way when i see neckbeards poring over d&d lore.

>> No.2724052

>>2724042
>I don't know why there are so many hard-core atheists who hate the Idea of a God.

skepticism is making a comeback. believing in non-provable stances seems silly from there.

>> No.2724057

>>2724046
Agreed, but I also feel the same way about Philosophy, Science and Literature.

>> No.2724061

>>2724057
good for you?

>> No.2724062

>>2724052
>believing in non-provable stances seems silly from there.

>Believing in spontaneous creationism.

>> No.2724063

>>2724046
I have been to a church and thought the same thing.

>> No.2724071

>>2724062
Do you know what falsifiable means? It's irrelevant whether "spontaneous creationism" (the proper term is abiogenesis) is true or not, it's falsifiable.

>> No.2724085
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2724085

Gnosticism is the best.

>> No.2724087

>>2723915
kissing your own ass, i see

>> No.2724089

>>2724062
atheism isn't necessarily a belief in anything. it isn't for me. I don't believe anything about the creation or purpose of existence. I withhold judgement in order to devote time to real problems.

>> No.2724090

>>2724071
>"spontaneous creationism" (the proper term is abiogenesis)

No, silly. Atheists are now using the term spontaneous creationism, to refer to the big bang. Not the formation of basic amino acids into rna-dna.

>> No.2724091

>>2724089
Atheism is a belief there is no God or Gods. What you claim for yourself is not atheism, it is agnosticism.

>> No.2724092

>>2724042
>I don't think you should actively follow christianity though.
I'm the opposite of you, I don't believe in God or the divinity of the christ but I think people should actively follow christianity.

>> No.2724095

>>2724046
>>2724057
hey, d&d lore is fucking interesting!

>> No.2724108

>>2724092
Why? If you are mindlessly going to follow the teachings of a theological school of thought, why not Buddhism or Hinduism?

>> No.2724110
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2724110

>>2724085
Shit's just got real. Gnosticism is basically the forebode of transhumanism. As is Rosicrucianism. We actual alchemists now.

>> No.2724114

>>2724095
Theology too, actually. Reading pascal or some neo-platonist stuff is pretty interesting.

>> No.2724117

>>2724114
Seconded. I love reading theological works, they're like super-developed mythologies that people actually believe. That makes them awesome.

>> No.2724120

>>2724090
Oh, I see. It's really no different than believing in a prime mover, except in the details. I never really care for that question, to me the answer seems intuitively obvious.

>> No.2724122

>>2724110

Transhumanism? Nigga, that's gross. I just want to see past this flawed creation to find the true universe that exists within all of us.

>> No.2724123

>>2724110
>>2724085
Shit looks interesting.

Recommended readings?

>> No.2724125

>>2724091
this shit again.

agnosticism is about knowing. no one knows either way. We are all agnostic.

atheism is about believing. I withhold judgement on belief. Atheism is disbelief which is the absence of belief or the affirmation of non-existence of God. I fall into one of those categories which is the absence of belief.

>> No.2724126

>>2724089
>implying everything that's wrong with the world doesn't always come back to Christianity
>implying religion isn't the root of all evil

>> No.2724124

>>2724091
Technically it is agnostic atheism.

What you are referring to is gnostic atheism.

>> No.2724129

>>2724124
"Technically" it's actually something with far more words used to define it, as is everything, but in the broader sense, withholding judgement is agnostic, judging there is no god is atheist.

>> No.2724132

>>2724126
evil comes down to people being asses to one another, an ability which is independent of metaphysics.

>> No.2724133
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2724133

>>2724126

>> No.2724134

I don't believe in a God because it's an easy, but irrational, answer to the questions and issues our species doesn't understand yet.

"It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig
satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied.
And if the fool, or the pig, are a different opinion, it is because
they only know their own side of the question."

-John Stuart Mill

>> No.2724135

>>2724123

http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html

>> No.2724139

>>2724108
I've learnt a bit about buddhism but I don't have a pessimistic view about life, the teachings of christ are awesome.

>> No.2724140

>>2724129
No, you're wrong. Atheism means that you disbelieve in a god. That's it. Whether or not you claim to know a god exists determines whether you are a gnostic or agnostic atheist. Most atheists are agnostic.

>> No.2724142

>>2724108

In case you hadn't noticed Hinduism promotes or at least condones hideously rigid class structures that segregate society in harmful ways.

And Buddhism doesn't have the activist bent that Christianity does. For example, its golden rule is negative / prohibitive (i.e. "Do not do unto others what you would not have done unto yourself "), whereas Christianity's strictly active (i.e. "DO unto others what you would have done unto yourself"). How do you think the bible came to be the most translated book in existence? No other religion exhorts so vehemently helping & saving others.

>> No.2724145

>>2724125

Agnosticism is about the recognition that you don't know anything for certain.

>> No.2724149

>>2724140
>Whether or not you claim to know a god doesn't exist*

Typo

>> No.2724150

>>2724135
So far, I'm just nodding my head.

It's pretty much what I already believed.

>> No.2724151
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2724151

>>2724133

>> No.2724170

>>2724142
>How do you think the bible came to be the most translated book in existence?
Partly Paul's interpretation of scripture and theology, and partly taking the mantle of the new Roman empire. The Christian phrase as you put it is somewhat a quirk of translation, the original being more along the lines of what people should do to you you should do to them. Fairly simple statement of reciprocity.

>> No.2724173

>>2724142
>Do not do unto others what you would not have done unto yourself
Dont cherry pick the parts that you like.

1/1200: If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13)

2/1200: A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

3/1200: If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

4/1200: Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21)

5/1200: Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19

6/1200: A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

>> No.2724178

>>2724173
>Quoting Leviticus and Deuteronomy

How's High School man?

>> No.2724180

>>2724173
Are we supposed to think that those are morally wrong?

>> No.2724181

>>2724173

But all serious Christians ignore most of the Jewish teachings and just focus on the New Testament (which is very peaceful).

>> No.2724183

>>2724178
>How's High School man?
>JD Salinger

Is that supposed to be irony?

>> No.2724185

>>2724183
>Thinking that JD Salinger = Catcher in the Rye
>Not knowing JD Salinger's Theology

Really proving my point here

>> No.2724188

>>2724173
God, you don't even know what the new testament is, do you?

>> No.2724189

>>2724181
Serious Christians own up to what's in their holy book and either 1.) give legitimate theological reasons that Israeli judicial law has expired, and/or 2.) incorporate it into their theological system.

>> No.2724190

>>2724181
Most serious Christians ignore half of their holy book? That makes them seem very intelligent.

>> No.2724191

>>2724185
>Subscribing to the theology of a mediocre novalist.

>> No.2724192

Glad to see my Gnostic brothers (and sisters?) representing.

I've been curious about Kabbalah too, as well as any "deep" readings of the Scripture. The stuff is part of a small group of things that interest me these days.

>> No.2724194

>>2724150
Im reading it too. it's well thought out of most of the religions I've encountered but I'm slowly realising that no religion actually satisfies curiosity. Nothing explains the why questions. All beliefs are only there to offer some relief for the difficulties of existence. I won't be relieved until that curiosity is satisfied and no belief can do that so I am permanently insatiable with only weak consolation from the myths and ideas that can only go half way to addressing the problem.

>> No.2724197

>>2724188
>God, you don't even know what the new testament is, do you?

Good old Christians, Ignoring the atrocities in the first half of their novel. Why don't you just cut the OT out completely? It's not as if anyone still believes it... Oh, wait.

>> No.2724200

>character development
>non-linear narrative
>moral and ethical growth
>main character starts as merciless and cruel, becomes loving and merciful
>unreliable narrator
>some of the most beautiful thoughts mankind has ever come up with along with some of the worst
>generally uplifting and universalist message

The Bible confirmed for God tier. You guys just don't like it because it's too popular. If it was obscure you'd be all over it.

>> No.2724199

>>2724194
>The world is imperfect

Thus we can only have imperfect understandings of it.

We are flawed in that we want perfect understanding, but will never get it.

>> No.2724201

>>2724199
exactly so gnosticism itself is telling me gnosticism isn't right for me.

>> No.2724204

Thanks, I love pretending being a christian. Its so refreshing with a pinch of degradation.

>> No.2724205

>>2724062
>finds absurd that no one created the universe
>totally fine with the idea that no one created God

>> No.2724206

>>2724199
That and we impose our own opinions of perfection unto the world. like "life is unfair".

>> No.2724208

>>2724200
>implying reading Biblical Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic isn't "hip" and "rad" or something

>> No.2724209

>>2724201
Gnosticism is giving you the best imperfect understanding.

You aren't supposed to be satisfied.

>> No.2724210

>Serious Christian ignore the OT

Marcionism has been condemned as a heresy since the 3rd century, bud.

>> No.2724211

>>2724200
>generally uplifting and universalist message
>everyone dies and millions suffer for eternity

>> No.2724212

>>2724197

But that's the thing, the OT isn't "ours" really. Jesus Christ came up as a reaction of a lot of things Judaism taught, while still subscribing to its basic tenants. The OT has some great parts and is incredibly important for cultural, literary, and historical considerations, but the NT has where the real teachings of Jesus Christ are.

>> No.2724214

>>2724205
Immovable mover is very much tied to the concept of God.

>> No.2724216

>>2724212
Your views are not orthodox, sorry. Please stop acting like you speak for Christians.

>> No.2724219

>>2724205
>believing in beginnings and ends
>thinking that the way we experience the 4th dimension is somehow "objective"

>> No.2724221

>>2724214
there's always the claim that the universe is self-caused.

>> No.2724222

>>2724209
>You aren't supposed to be satisfied.

then why am i even trying to approach 'the best imperfect' understanding?

gnosticism confirmed for self defeating

>> No.2724223

>>2724216

The words of Jesus Christ are supreme over what some Jew wrote five centuries before him and all Christians would agree with me.

Deal with it, bro.

>> No.2724225

>>2724209
If the world is imperfect the creator is imperfect.
If the world is perfect we can have perfect understanding.
If logic does not apply to god then I'm a taco van and my deliciousness is amazing phasing in the grand come with me we find great dids you know and you are that.

>> No.2724226

>>2724211
>lowest possible treshold for salvation
>doesn't discriminate

>> No.2724228

>>2724222
The only philosophies/theologies that make sense are the ones that tell you the truth.

The truth doesn't have to be satisfying though.

Can you even imagine what you want?

>> No.2724229

>>2724223
>What I think Jesus said is supreme over what his Church has authoritatively taught for 2,000 years.

Begone, Protestant.

>> No.2724230

>>2724222

>then why am i even trying to approach 'the best imperfect' understanding?

In order to know how to approach the imperfect world and how to best try to reach into the perfect part.

>> No.2724231

>>2724225
Gnosticims says God is imperfect.

>> No.2724235

>>2724231
do you mean the demiurge?

i don't think the creator in gnosticism is the same as god

>> No.2724236

Oh Holy Mithra. It's this thread again. When are they going to stop preaching these newchristians going to stop spreading lies with their demonic newgods

Is it just me that hates these poor new-christians?

>> No.2724233
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2724233

>mfw I'm ashamed of being a christian because of murikans

>> No.2724240

>>2724226
>lowest possible treshold for salvation
>two thirds of humanity are excluded as non-christian

>> No.2724244

There's a reason gnosticism died out: shit tier theology.

>> No.2724248

>>2724231
If God is imperfect than he is no God. He is just a big bang with a shitty personality.

>> No.2724249

Is it true that incest is the reason of religion?

>> No.2724250

>>2724229

I think? It is written, it is what all Christians think he said. If it cannot be "I know" then it is at least "we think," the we including Catholics.

>> No.2724253

>>2724244

It died out because the church became authoritarian, and that's fact.

>> No.2724254

>>2724248
You have a preconceived notion of what "God" should be.

>> No.2724258

A few things need to be cleared up here:

In Gnosticism, the God of the Bible and creator of this world is an imperfect, abortion of a god.

The implication is that there is a way to transcend this existence through self-knowledge and know the true spiritual realm (true gods).

>> No.2724260

>>2724248
>Still believing in the big bang
>2012

>> No.2724262

>>2724250
>Words don't need interpretation.

>> No.2724263
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2724263

Whats going on in here?


99% of all nobelprize winners are atheists
99% of all us-inmates are religious

>> No.2724271

>>2724240
You're thinking of a particular interpretation of Calvinist predestination, where the assumption is that people who aren't baptised where always doomed to torment (God through his omniscience prejudged they would be damned). Most Christian churches do not follow this line of thought, viewing a persons good deeds as manifestations of God's grace, regardless of their beliefs, and of God's infinite mercy and forgiveness or similar.

>> No.2724272

>>2724260
Not getting the metaphor.
>>2724258
The bad part about gnosticism is that it keeps salvation. I agree that the world is an abortion, but I believe that you are doomed to fail. The only way to save humanity is by stop humanity from reproducing.

Catharism > Gnosticism

>> No.2724273

Victims of christianity:

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

The death toll is a few Billion higher than the Nazi concentration camps.

>> No.2724280
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2724280

>>2724248

That's exactly what Gnosticism teaches. The thing many people think is the true God is in fact the demiurge, which IS imperfect and DID create us, thus making an imperfect world. However, a part of the true God IS within us, as it is within everything. We must seek to discriminate what is imperfect within us and seek out the part of us that is truly God.

Gnosticism is incredibly flexible though, and it gives no routine you have to subscribe to to seek out this God. At its basis it teaches to seek out knowledge and find for yourself the true God. For this reason I also think Gnosticism can be easily applied to cultural backgrounds a person might have, allowing them to stay Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox (and I'd say that Gnosticism can even be applied to outside-Christianity, allowing Jews or Muslims to bring Gnostic views into their theology).

So, at its basis, Gnosticism merely teaches to face the imperfection of our world head-on, to not delude yourself in thinking this is the end-all power of God, and to seek out the very essence in EVERYTHING that holds the true God.

So it's a fucking AWESOME idea.

>> No.2724281

>>2724273
>billions

lol

>> No.2724284

>>2724280
Why do you believe that there is a perfect God, when the imperfect God is more than a sufficient explanation?

>> No.2724294

>>2724273
lol yeah, people should stop being "christian" because they might commit atrocities. MIRITE??? XD

>> No.2724301

>>2724240

Tbh the whole concept of hell, and who will populate it, in The Bible is left a bit vague. Unfortunately christians have been all too ready to put labels on people, which in fact is a major sin in itself.

>> No.2724314

>>2724301
>left vague
>clearly states that you cannot be rich or non-christian

>> No.2724320
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2724320

>>2724284

First I would like to say at its basis I do not find religion to be an EXPLANATION, so much as a CONFIRMATION, that is I find all facets of religion I tie myself to are things I readily believe within me one way or another, and have come to the conclusion of on my own through my own pondering or gestation. You must seek within YOURSELF and not to others. From there I have read the scriptures and researched the movements and found those things which most greatly adhere to my personal beliefs.

Secondly, I simply feel that the universe at its most primordial, basic, and most powerfully naked is not imperfect, but rather completely perfect. I simply feel the essence of it within myself, and I feel as though there is indeed a way to greatly commune with this (as do most all religions, notably Hindus and Buddhists). It may seem this is an immature want for what I do not have but rather I feel I have made a very mature acceptance of what the world is and I have grounded myself within reality to find the best of it (which includes but also defies the human minds amazing capability to escape reality).

But you should look into YOURSELF, what do you believe, for within yourself that is what is God.

>> No.2724326

>>2724320
When you look in yourself for confirmation of what you believe you are just giving up to wishful thinking.

>> No.2724327

>>2724294
>>2724294
Yes exactly, based on their track record. There are a lot of hardcore fundamentalists who believe in the OT, even cults like Jehovahs witnesses who believe exclusively in the OT. What if they decide to follow some of these: >>2724173 . Muslims have already done it with the Koran. All they need is a charismatic cult leader and they could go on a killing spree.

Christains have slaughtered more people than any other group in history. What a wonderful cult to follow.

>> No.2724332

>>2724326

And when you look into others you give in to their wishful thinking.

>> No.2724339

>>2724062
A lack of belief in any god is not an automatic subscription to any other model of how the universe came to exist.

>>2724126
>implying that militant atheism isn't culturally destructive and near-imperialistic in nature

>>2724272
What does it matter whether humanity reproduces? It's arbitrary to say that one option (extinction) is inherently better than the other.

>> No.2724346

>>2724327
>Christains have slaughtered more people than any other group in history.[citation needed]

I'm an atheist and this looks suspicious to me. It's a specious claim in the first place, because good luck figuring out which ones were Christians and how many kills those Christians got, and second, "in the name of Christianity," is still a little dubious if you're talking about how many people because of the steep rise in both populations and casualties that occurred in the political upheavals and nationalist causes of the late 19th and early 20th century. I get the spirit of what you're saying, but it's really dubious as a numerical/statistical claim.

>> No.2724349

>>2724327

It is not that simple. While Christianity holds horrid killers, there are the most gentle of ascetics and the most peaceful of people who too hold to it. Do not judge the ideas on the people, rather distance yourselves from those and say what you feel is true and right.

>> No.2724367

>>2724346
>>2724346
>.[citation needed]
Follow the link in this post >>2724273

Then look up figures for other cults and races; Vikings, Romans, Muslims... None of them come close to the total amount of People Christians have killed.

>> No.2724368

>>2724200
Saved, that was great.

>> No.2724391

>>2724314
Jesus was pretty clear when he said how to 'inherit the Kingdom of God': love your neighbor and love God.

Its the christians who've made it vague.

>> No.2724396

>>2724367
>called out for statistics not being reliable
>asks the person to judge everything by those same statistics
foolretard.jpg

>> No.2724397

>>2724396
>fool
fuckme.jpg

>> No.2724402

>>2724396
>foolretard.jpg

Irony

>> No.2724529

Religionisticism, not even once.

>> No.2724546

So, theists, the major things stopping me from agreeing with you is that I when I look at religion at the end of the day all I can see are systems of thought function as a consolation for the inevitable suffering and pain of this life. The creation of invisible rewards for visible hardship. Basically I can't shake off the feeling that it is wishful thinking.

You must have at least had these thoughts once, how do you shake them?