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/lit/ - Literature

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2682575 No.2682575 [Reply] [Original]

why the fuck doesn't harold bloom like DFW if he likes Pynchon? I would have thought he'd be way more open to DFW's style if he liked Pynchon as well

>> No.2682585

>>2682575

Because DFW wrote something against Bloom in Infinite Jest and thus Bloom cries like a bitch and compares DFW to Stephen King and says he's even worse than King.

>> No.2682588

maybe something to do with his hardon for originality, and DFW is kind of a patchwork of Pynchon/DeLillo/Coover

>> No.2682592

>>2682575
Because he's not Shakespeare.

>> No.2682594

He made a mistake. Happens to everyone.

>> No.2682595

because Pynchon can write and DFW can't.
DFW's style is shit. I don't see what made you compare the two writers, Pynchon's style suffers from none of the neuroticism and poor craftsmanship that DFW's does.
Pynchon's writing is funny and energetic.

>> No.2682597
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2682597

Because haters gon' hate.

>> No.2682599

We'll never know. He's gone far too senile to ever be able to explain anything ever again.

>> No.2682602

>>2682599
>We'll never know.

Of course we'll know, it's easy to know. Just read DFW, it's clear that he can't write for shit.

>> No.2682605

>>2682602

I've read both authors and think they're both great.

>> No.2682611

DFW attacked him for no reason.

>> No.2682613

>>2682605
tbh I've barely read either author and am talking out of my arse. But based on first impressions of each of their writing I can easily spot some of the reasons why Bloom would say Pynchon can write and DFW can't.

>> No.2682615

I actually prefer Wallace to Pynchon. His voice and concerns just resonate with me more, I suppose.

I've not yet read Mason & Dixon or Against the Day, though.

>> No.2682618

>>2682613

DFW has an autistic style that's hard to break through, which is why just reading excerpts is no good for judging his talent. He has some moments of real brilliance in his work, but they can be a slog to get to. I'd argue Pynchon's the greater writer, but DFW was a force to be reckoned with as well. He's easy to put down but people who dismiss him are missing out, I think.

>> No.2682623

They're two different authors. Although admittedly Infinite Jest is pretty Pynchonian.

>> No.2682625

Fuck though, just reading the first few paragraphs of Gravity's Rainbow and the writing is bold and quickly paced.

>>2682618
>DFW has an autistic style that's hard to break through,

I don't find it hard to grasp what he's saying:

"My posture is consciously congruent to the shape of my hard chair."

"My fingers are mated into a mirrored series of what manifests, to me, as the letter X."

It's easy enough to understand, I just don't like it.

>> No.2682632

>>2682625
you realise it's written in the 3rd person subjective, right?

>> No.2682634

>>2682625
>I like him

“What passes for hip cynical transcendence of sentiment is really some kind of fear of being really human, since to be really human [...] is probably to be unavoidably sentimental and naïve and goo-prone and generally pathetic.”

“And Lo, for the Earth was empty of Form, and void. And Darkness was all over the Face of the Deep. And We said: 'Look at that fucker Dance.”

“Are we not all of us fanatics? I say only what you of the U.S.A. pretend you do not know. Attachments are of great seriousness. Choose your attachments carefully. Choose your temple of fanaticism with great care. What you wish to sing of as tragic love is an attachment not carefully chosen. Die for one person? This is a craziness. Persons change, leave, die, become ill. They leave, lie, go mad, have sickness, betray you, die. Your nation outlives you. A cause outlives you.”

“--and then you're in serious trouble, very serious trouble, and you know it, finally, deadly serious trouble, because this Substance you thought was your one true friend, that you gave up all for, gladly, that for so long gave you relief from the pain of the Losses your love of that relief caused, your mother and lover and god and compadre, has finally removed its smily-face mask to reveal centerless eyes and a ravening maw, and canines down to here, it's the Face In The Floor, the grinning root-white face of your worst nightmares, and the face is your own face in the mirror, now, it's you, the Substance has devoured or replaced and become you."

>> No.2682639

>>2682632
that didn't occur to me, no.

>> No.2682643

>>2682585
>DFW wrote something against Bloom in Infinite Jest

What'd he write?

>> No.2682645

>>2682643
he was pretty dismissive of bloom's "turgid" theory of the anxiety of influence, iirc. it was literally just one little sentence, but i guess he knew what he was doing.

>> No.2682657

Because Pynchon is a master craftsman on par with Joyce and Proust (or Nabokov and McCarthy on their best days). He also founded a the current 'literary' genre and is considered by many to be one of the most important authors of the twentieth century and one of the most important American authors of all time.

DFW is more on par with contemporary Oprah literoso like Franzen and that other one. Not terrible obviously, but not top tier by any stretch. His fans are mostly in their late teens and early twenties and will likely grow out of him and he will be mostly forgotten after all the post-suicide hype has vanished.


Say what you will about Bloom but the man has good taste and is rarely wrong when it comes to matters of aesthetics and craft.

>> No.2682661

>>2682657
0/10

>> No.2682665

pro fucking tip

Harold Bloom doesn't like when authors insult him by calling him boring and obsolete, so he writes scathing editorials attacking said authors.

WOW news of the century

>> No.2682666

DFW is just Pynchon for upper middle class white people. Whereas Pynchon himself is more for lower middle class people of all races and academics.

>> No.2682667

>>2682657

Mostly this.

>> No.2682669

Bloom did nothing wrong

>> No.2682670
File: 27 KB, 294x361, Welles.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2682670

>>2682657

>Because Pynchon is a master craftsman on par with Joyce and Proust (or Nabokov and McCarthy on their best days).

>> No.2682671

>>2682657
dfw is adored by critics (except bloom), peers and general audiences. he is not a flash in the pan.

>> No.2682676

>>2682657

>post decent criticism
>guy gets 0/10 and reaction faces

I wish /lit/ wouldn't be so 4chan all the time.

>> No.2682679

>>2682670
I don't think he's wrong. Pynchon might not have the same touch for "beautiful" language but he depicts American life at the periods in rights in so vividly.

>> No.2682682

I guess it's time to post this article again:
http://exiledonline.com/david-foster-wallace-portrait-of-an-infinitely-limited-mind/

>> No.2682684

>>2682679
> at the periods in rights in

periods he rights in

>> No.2682685

>>2682679
says the guy who admits he's barely even read any Pynchon

>> No.2682690

>>2682682
I guess it's time to tell you to fuck off again.

>> No.2682692

>>2682685
xD
yeah I read the first few paragraphs of The Crying Lot of 49 and came to that conclusion.

>> No.2682709

Pynchon is a glorified Beat.

>> No.2682721

>>2682709

You've got some fucking guts coming into this message board and saying something like that, fucker.

>> No.2682727
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2682727

>>2682721

>> No.2682734

>>2682727
>>2682721

Except that he is partially in the right. Pynchon is overrated as hell on this board. He's a good writer, but to compare him to Joyce, Proust, and Nabokov is laughable.

>> No.2682738

>>2682734

Say what you will, he's no fucking Jack Kerouac.

>> No.2682741

>>2682734
>to compare him to Joyce, Proust, and Nabokov is laughable.

Yeah , He is just better than Joyce and Nabokov.

>> No.2682744

>>2682738

What? Of course Kerouac is better than Pynchon, if that's what you're trying to say. You might want to re-word that sentence, though.

>> No.2682748

>>2682744

That's not what I'm trying to say, and I should have worded it better, you're right.

>> No.2682750

>>2682744
Reported.

>> No.2682752

>Of course Kerouac is better than Pynchon

Oh wow, just when you thought this thread couldn't get any more ridiculous.

>> No.2682753

because only hipster like DFW. he isn't that good.

>> No.2682754
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2682754

>>2682741

>> No.2682756

>>2682605
thats because you cant into criticism. you just like everyone to look cool and smart

>> No.2682757

>>2682741

Better than Nabokov? That's laughable.

>> No.2682760

>>2682756

I don't like everyone. I do like both of them. But you're right, I can't really into criticism.

>> No.2682762

>>2682760
Dude, just ignore that idiot.

>> No.2682764

>>2682752

Sorry, that was meant to be sarcastic (I realize its hard to decipher on the internet). I was just teasing Betty.

>> No.2682766

>>2682762

Can't hurt to clarify.

>> No.2682770

>>2682762
it's quite clear that when someone reads highly acclaimed authors and is able to say nothing more than 'I like them', they can't actually assess effectively

>> No.2682772

>>2682741
but wait a minute. joyce is better than proust. joyce is single best writer of all time. so i dont understand your post

>> No.2682776

>>2682770
It was a throwaway post on /lit/, for chrissakes. Stop being a faggot.

>> No.2682787

>>2682776
>implying he doesnt have time to write more in a post


he's probably unemployed ffs

>> No.2682788

>>2682772

Perhaps not the single best writer (that will always be Shakespeare in my book), but certainly one of them. However I haven't read Ulysses yet, so I guess my opinion is fairly limited.

>> No.2682793

>>2682788
You haven't read Ulysses yet, and you're talking about who is the "single best writer". That is the height of pseudo-intellectuality.

>> No.2682800

>>2682788
puhlease, Shakespeare was the his generation's stephen kind. he had none of joyce's craft

>> No.2682805

>>2682800
I can't stop laughing.
Thanks, anon.

>> No.2682808

>>2682800
oh god make it stop

>> No.2682811
File: 151 KB, 242x252, h54.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2682811

>>2682787

Hey Faggot.

My name is Davey, and I hate every single one of you. All of you are fat, retarded, plebeians who spend every second of their day theorizing about stupid-ass 'novels'. You are everything bad in the world. Honestly, have any of you ever gotten any clarity? I mean, I guess it’s fun making fun of people because of your own inability to grasp abstraction, but you all take to a whole new level. This is even worse than jerking off to pictures of Sartre and Beauvoir.
Don’t be a stranger. Just hit me with your best shot. I’m pretty much perfect. I was the posterboy for Generation X disillusionment, and started a literary movement. What books do you write, other than “dystopian post-modern genre fiction”? I also was a professor, and have a banging hot buddy (He just critiqued me; Shit was SO cash). You are all faggots who should just kill yourselves. Thanks for listening.

Pic Related: It’s me and my bud.

>> No.2682813

Pynchon is a great fucking writer. Youse all are a bunch of fucking idiots.

>> No.2682814

>>2682811
Holy. Shit. I think it's been three years since I last saw this copypasta.

>> No.2682815

>>2682811
I did a far better DFW hey john a month or two ago and it went effectively unnoticed.

>> No.2682818

>>2682814
>>2682815

Fuck, I thought I was the first.

>> No.2682824

>>2682818
you will always be unoriginal benny, no point in trying, just smoke weed and c*m everyday

>> No.2682828
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2682828

>>2682811
Hi Hi Hi there, Faggots,

There is me, that is, Alex, and I hate every single odin of you. All of you are fat, gloopy, no-lifes who spend every second of their day smottovating at gloopy pictures. You are everything baddiwad in the world. Honestly, have any of you ever engaged in the old in-out, in-out? I mean, I guess it's fun making fun of lewdies because of your own insecurities, but you all shvat to a whole new level, O my brothers. This is even worse than going "PRRRRRRR" to a cheena warbling the lovely lovely Ludwig Van.

Come and get one in the yarbles, if you have any yarbles, you eunuch jelly, thou. I'm pretty much perfect. I was the privodevat of my droogs, and I'm like real dobby at dratsing with my britva. What do you do, other than "jack off to drawn nagoy japanese lewdies"? I'm at the absolute heighth of fashion , and I just shvat anything that I want (I just raped someone; Cal was SO horrorshow). You are all faggots who should just oobivat yourselves. Thanks for slooshing.

Pic Related: It's me and my droogs.

>> No.2682832

>>2682808
>>2682805
you are clearly not familiar with shakespeare if you don't know that he wrote some shitty plays. joyce wasn't as prolific but he was the more highly skilled wordsmith

>> No.2682833
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2682833

>>2682824

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I have an intricate history. Experiences and feelings. I’m complex. I read. I study and read. I bet I’ve read everything you’ve read. Don’t think I haven’t. I consume libraries. I wear out spines and ROM-drives. I do things like get in a taxi and say, “The library, and step on it.” My instincts concerning syntax and mechanics are better than your own, I can tell, with due respect. But it transcends the mechanics. I’m not a machine. I feel and believe. I have opinions. Some of them are interesting. I could, if you’d let me, talk and talk. Let’s talk about anything. I believe the influence of Kierkegaard on Camus is underestimated. I believe Dennis Gabor may very well have been the Antichrist. I believe Hobbes is just Rousseau in a dark mirror. I believe, with Hegel, that transcendence is absorption. I could interface you guys right under the table. I’m not just a creatus, manufactured, conditioned, bred for a function. Please don’t think I don’t care. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

>> No.2682844
File: 250 KB, 435x329, DFWallace.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2682844

>>2682833
Hey Schwuchteln,

Mein Name ist David und ich hasse jeden einzelnen von euch fetten, behinderten Leuten ohne RL, die sich dn ganzen Tag nur dumme Bilder angucken. Mal ehrlich, hat überhaupt jemals einer von euch ´ne Muschi abbekommen? Ich meine, wahrscheinlich macht es euch Spaß, euch über andere Menschen lustig zu machen um eure eigene innere Unsicherheit zu verdecken, aber ihr bringt das auf ein völlig neues Level. Das ist sogar schlimmer als sich auf die Bilder auf Facebook einen runterzuholen.

Versucht ruhig, mich fertigzumachen. Ich bin ziemlich perfekt. Ich war Captain im Football Team und starter in meinem Basketball Team. Welchen anderen Sport ausser "zu nackten gezeichneten Charakteren von Fire Emblem wichsen" spielt ihr? Ich bekomme ausserdem überall glatte Einsen und habe eine scharfe Freundin (sie hat mir grade einen geblasen, Scheisse war SO Bargeld). Ihr seid alle Schwuchteln die sich einfach umbringen sollten. Danke für´s zuhören.

Bild Themenverwandt: Das bin ich mit meiner Schlampe

>> No.2682847

>>2682833
golfclap.gif

>> No.2682848
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2682848

>>2682828

Tony Burgess might be proud

pic related: Spaghet!

>> No.2682849

>>2682833
Although of course you end up repeating yourself.

>> No.2682898

This discussion again?

Well, ok, DFW was cursed with being labeled a "precocious, young, up-and-comer on par with...wait for it...Thomas Pynchon! Literature's savior has arrived!" right out of college with that Broom and the System or whatever (haven't read it).

SO that means that every piece of fiction he writes must be AS GOOD or BETTER than Thomas Pynchon, which, if you've read Gravity's Rainbow, is nigh fucking impossible if that's what you're deliberately trying to do, which DFW very much was, even though he went to great lengths to act like he wasn't.

Thus, Infinite Jest. An "epic", "post-modern" novel written by a very sensitive soul with an enormous amount of pressure on his shoulders. I've read IJ, and there really is no comparison in quality or aesthetic merit when stacked up against Pynchon at his best. Whereas Pynchon hilariously skewers solipsism and paranoia in GR, DFW seems to indulge in self-obsession and addictions (which, his addiction apparently being weed....laaaame.) Also, there's no joy in Wallace, just self-pity.

That said, it's tragic DFW committed suicide. Many readers enjoyed his fiction and looked up to him. His essays are very entertaining, but he was labeled a novelist, which I don't think he ever really was.

>> No.2682906

>>2682898

>there's no joy in Wallace

bite your tongue, then grow another tongue and bite that as well

>> No.2682913

>>2682898

Having recently quit marijuana, Infinite Jest is probably the most poignant account of addiction to the stuff I've read. A lot of what he says about depression was incredibly close to my heart as well. That said, I agree he doesn't really hold a candle to Pynchon.

>> No.2682919

>>2682913

>stops smoking weed
>thinks he has expirience of coping with addiction/withdrawal.

Oh lawdy, what you talkin' 'bout son?

>> No.2682922

>>2682898

>Whereas Pynchon hilariously skewers solipsism and paranoia in GR, DFW seems to indulge in self-obsession and addictions (which, his addiction apparently being weed....laaaame.) Also, there's no joy in Wallace, just self-pity.

Did you ever think that there may be a difference of when GR and IJ were written? How would DFW be able embrace the "Fuck the war. They're in love" attitude without coming off as a phony sentimentalist, somewho who didn't live in his present? They are both statements of their times, and this is what's important, nobody would care about a 90s rehash of GR.

>> No.2682925

>>2682919

It doesn't happen to everyone, but it happens. I can fucking assure you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_withdrawal

>> No.2682928

Just wanted to say that I'm on page 900 or so of Against the Day and I think it's Pynchon's best. Better than GR, even.

>> No.2682934

>>2682922
Gravity's Rainbow is more relevant than ever. It's more relevant than IJ artistically, socially, and politically. I just think people are doing themselves a great disservice by eschewing Pynchon for Wallance and thinking they're getting the same deal; they're not. Then, when they see people like Bloom saying that reading 900 pages of DFW is a waste of time they get pissed, resent Pynchon, and here comes "Pynchon is a hack!" flame-wars.

>> No.2682938

>>2682922

>"Fuck the war. They're in love"

Is... that what you got out of GR?

You should read it again.

>> No.2682946

>>2682938

I always thought that half the point of GR (and Against the Day, only with WW1 instead of WW2) was to point out "hey, even these so-called 'just wars' that we look back on with patriotic nostalgia were waged by the rich, for territory and resources and control, and every person involved was either killed or changed for the worse, just like every other war ever, it was innocent people dying and suffering at the whim of the states. So fuck war, smoke some grass and find a gal or a fella, because the guys on top don't want to fuck you gently, they want your money and your life and they want you to die screaming."

Something like that.

>> No.2682949

>>2682934

From what I have seen is that most people who appreciate DFW also really like Pynchon, the exception here is Bloom and this is where most of trolling from both sides happens. I think you are muddled up in this:
>I just think people are doing themselves a great disservice by eschewing Pynchon for Wallance and thinking they're getting the same deal;
and
>like Bloom saying that reading 900 pages of DFW is a waste of time they get pissed, resent Pynchon,

These are two completely different things but you seem to lump it all together in some false dichtomy of hating Pynchon & hating Bloom, loving DFW.
And I don't agree with your characterisation of GR as more socially relevant. Especially in our culture where the use of media and entertainment are going through the roof, IJ points towards the logical conclusions of it. See: pictures of 5 people and they are all texting etc. This is just an example but you will find these things very easily if one would care enough to go outside and experience it.

>> No.2682950

>>2682934
no DFW fan on /lit/ has ever said Pynchon was a hack, you fucking retard. Especially not in this thread.

>> No.2682954

>>2682946
Beautiful summary.

I'd add that the War never ends, as well.

>> No.2682956

>>2682938

You are a complete moron.

>> No.2682957

>>2682946

I'll concede half the point.

>> No.2682959

>>2682950
>you fucking retard

I read it all the time. Stop thinking you're the only person who exists...you fucking retard.

>> No.2682966

>>2682950
>you fucking retard
>you fucking retard

>> No.2682968

>>2682959
>I read it all the time.

No you don't, you lying fuck.

>> No.2682972

>>2682968
Yes I do, you lying fuck. Also, grow up.

>> No.2682974

>>2682959

>I read it all the time.

Wow, yeah you really got to him, what a great answer. You are a moron.

>> No.2682977

>>2682968
You're the worst.

>> No.2682980

ITT: DFW fanboys gladly demonstrating the faggotry of DFW fanboyism.

>> No.2682982

>>2682977
At least I don't lie on the internet.

>> No.2682983
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2682983

/lit/: civility in action.

>> No.2682985

>>2682950
Why don't you hang yourself just like your shitty favorite author

>> No.2682992

guiz, if I red Infinity Guest will i be able to score with thos hot hipsta college chiks?

thx guzi

>> No.2682994

>>2682985
If I have to read any more of your tedious fucking posts I just might.

>> No.2683000

This is the most genuine mad I've seen on /lit/ in a while.

>>2682992
Save time and read the beats instead.

>> No.2683016

>>2682994
You're awful. Seriously, becoming a writer, market to idiots who want to seem smart ages 18-24, then become super depressed when people start believing that you have something profound to say. After years and year of self-doubt and disillusionment, write a half-assed mess of a nothing book, leave it on a disk drive, then hang yourself because you duped a bunch of morons.

Or don't, who cares? It's literature. Grow up.

>> No.2683021

/lit/ at its most /lit/

none of you can think or write

0 discernible talents

>> No.2683028

>>2683021
this made me lol

>> No.2683030

>>2683016

You were proven wrong on an imageboard and after childishly insisting that you are right you finally show your real face by saying LOL HE SUCKS AND THAT'S WHY HE'S DEAD.
Seriously, you are one of the most pathetic retards even to imageboard standards.

>> No.2683032

I like Dfw as much as I like Pynchon though I feel closer to the former. Both were incredibly good.
Joyce best writter of all times?
Ovid, Horace, Goethe, Moliere, Shakespeare, Racine, Proust, Dante, Flaubert are better by my standards.
Before discovering /lit/, I was not well read by English standards, thanks to you guys I discovered great books I wouldn't have read otherwise. But you need to stop sucking Joyce's cock; he's great, exeptional even, nevertheless other countries have produced great awesome literature.
I'm French so I've read a fair amount of french lit; before I thought I knew a big deal about books, then I decided to open up.
There are TONS of french authors equally as good as Joyce. I'm sure germanfags could think of a few names, and so the italianfags and so on... I'm not even talking about greek & latin authors...

>> No.2683035 [DELETED] 

>>2683032

'merifags gonna 'meri.

>> No.2683036

>>2683030
No you're the most pathetic retards to image board standards retard.

also, he did kill himself because he was depressed because he sucked at what he did so blow me.

>> No.2683039

>>2683036

Why did he suck at what he did?

>> No.2683044

>>2683039
why does god hate jews? nobody knows.

>> No.2683047

>>2683039
also because his books sucked

>> No.2683048

>>2683044

I'd like a real answer.

>> No.2683050

>>2683036
You can stop that, please?
You are embarrassing yourself.

>> No.2683053

>>2683050
how do you embarrass yourself on 4chan?

>> No.2683055

>>2683050
*Can you stop

>> No.2683057

ITT: DFW fans get trolled and take it quite personally.

>> No.2683058

>>2683057

Some people sincerely don't like the guy.

>> No.2683076

>>2683053

By being sincerely retarded and writing posts that are just a version of NO U (and not only once doing that but repeating yourself).
IF you are trolling my hat is off.

>> No.2683080

>>2683058
Can you insincerely not like someone?

>> No.2683083

>>2683080

It's called trolling.

>> No.2683086

>>2682828
Is this pasta

Either way this is the greatest post

>> No.2683110

>>2683057
>trolling in 2012:
>"HE KILLED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE HADN'T ANY TALENT LULULULULUL"

trolling used to be a art.

>> No.2683216

Why do people compare Pynchon and Wallace? They have almost nothing in common at all.

Pynchon: obscure references, characters with wierd names, set mostly in the late 60s, over-the-top storytelling

Wallace: prose laden with technical and psychiatric terms, analysis of human behaviour, set mostly in the 80s, different sense of humour, massive paragraphs

>> No.2683222

This is a first. Sunhawk just made the most intelligent post in the thread.

>> No.2683235

>>2683216
But Wallace likes obscurity and funny names too. The humour in Infinite Jest with the Wheelchair Assassins for instance is very over-the-top and Pynchonian.

>> No.2683240

>>2683216
Wahey! On ya boyo!

>> No.2683242

>>2683235
Infinite Jest is basically an homage to Gravity's Rainbow, but the rest of his stuff isn't very Pynchonian.

>> No.2683255
File: 25 KB, 250x381, barth-chimera.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2683255

You all realize that Pynchon and DFW are just plagiarizers of Barth yes?

>> No.2683292

>>2683240
are you a sim?

>> No.2683292,1 [INTERNAL] 

nobody is on par with joyce