/lit/ - Literature

[Vidya Essentials -- /lit/ edition No.2558407]

We have the best taste in literature and film, so let's make a /mu/ style essentials list for Arthouse Vidya, or Artsy Vidya, or whatever the fuck you guys want to call it. Only truly creative, aesthetic, and thought provoking games need apply. As we reach a consensus I'll begin to put them onto an essentials list and we can compound a good one over the next couple days.

Pic related. Discuss the artistic merits of this motherfucker. Personally, I feel it's avant-garde (for its time) cell shading contrasts deliciously with the violent pulp-fiction feel for dem aesthetics. The story is postmodern and 2deep4u, so I definitely feel like this is a good place to start. Feel free to post other games and why you think they're worth of being on the essentials list.

[Anonymous No.2558414]

Deus Ex and its prequel(?) Deus Ex: Human Revolution are not only outstanding games, but fairly good stories. I wonder how quickly this thread will devolve in "vidya isn't art"

[Anonymous No.2558415]

>>2558407
Might as well toss in some funny stuff to help avoid this getting too pretentious, Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne, one of the best post apocalyptic settings I've ever seen, lots of black humour and the combat system is Megaten at its best. Also, I'd like to add Persona 3, it has so many flaws, but it actually humanises the characters, shows them being normal, petty people, something almost no games do.
>inb4 weaboo

[Anonymous No.2558429]

>>2558415
>>2558414
Can't say I've played either, but I've heard nothing but praise for Deus Ex.

What do you guys think of pic related. I can't tell if nostalgia goggles or true art. I read an article somewhere on how much time and effort went into the color combinations and utilization of color theory, and I think in playing it the effort really shows, but not in a bad way. It's one of those effortlessly graceful and simple games that's great to play when high and is a token example of aesthetics combining with good game play, but I may be romanticizing it a bit so gimme some feedback.

[Anonymous No.2558430]

fuck you no

i do not support this

[Anonymous No.2558434]

I enjoyed the lore and atmosphere of Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. World of Darkness is just a great setting.

The foreboding feeling of the initial part of Call of Cthulhu is great too.

[Anonymous No.2558436]

>>2558429
>the effort really shows
>effortlessly
wat

[Anonymous No.2558441]

El Shaddai and Nier count? The former is most definitely artsy.

[Anonymous No.2558443]

>artsy vidya

Nope. I can't think of a single video game that has transcended the confines of it's medium and genre. There are moments such as one of the fights in FF where you have to pull out the controller and switch ports to defeat the boss, but video games almost always fail for one reason.

Gameplay. Even if a video game has an amazing story, it has to be interrupted by gameplay. Jack about to discover who is father is? Oh no! His father's been kidnapped! Time to kill 500 bad guys!

How do video games rise above this? I don't know. I'm not much of a gamer. I can think of the Max Payne games that play with certain video game conventions. Maybe even something like GTA or other sandbox games where the goal is to achieve a certain verisimilitude reflective of our free will.

But the goal of a game will almost always be to 'have fun.'

Want to change my mind? List some games that truly challenge the medium and their genre.

[Anonymous No.2558452]

Step aside, motherfuckers.

[Anonymous No.2558456]

Surprised we've gotten this far without a single mention of Ico/Shadow of the Colossus and Earthbound/Mother 3.

[Anonymous No.2558457]

>Arthouse Vidya, or Artsy Vidya
Uh-oh.
http://insomnia.ac/commentary/on_the_genealogy_of_art_games/

Didn't D&E make a list of great vidya already?

[Anonymous No.2558460]

>>2558443

I know your feel but I disagree respectful. What makes vidya great is in that it's not about story -- the experiance of gameplay lets us just be. Not to send pretentious, but through a video game we can enter into an alternate reality that plays by different rules. You seem to be throughly impressed by the interactions between the player and his environment as they enter the real of reality -- I highly suggest playing a game called Eternal Darkness. Your character has a "sanity" meter; every time you encounter something bizarre or supernatural your sanity meter goes down and shit starts happening to fuck with your head. The system tells you your controller is unplugged, the screen goes blue, the game starts freezing and lagging, things start getting progressively smaller, the game put s in subtle references to other games you've played on your memory card, etc. It's fucking great.

[Adorno !VGOK6fUxDA No.2558462]

Video games are a waste of intellect and time. Read a book.

[Anonymous No.2558470]

Less posting games, more discussion. Some games need to be culled in order to form a concise essentials list.

but please do feel free to give me your thoughts on my own personal recommendation, Yumme Nikki

[Anonymous No.2558474]

>>2558462
Somewhere out there is a person who plays games while managing to be smarter and better at time management than yourself.

[Anonymous No.2558478]

Definitely Fallout.

[Anonymous No.2558482]

>that feel when I have only played one of these games and can offer very little input

I don't know much about artsy games, but I think I know enough to say that Spyro isn't art. The worlds were creative and the graphics were god-tier for its time, but the gameplay was shit and boring. It's only intellectually stimulating if you're five or you're baked as fuck. The shit about color theory I can see, but I just don't feel it transcending the confines of the industry at all.

[Anonymous No.2558483]

>video game discussion in /lit/

[Anonymous No.2558486]

>>2558478
No.

[Anonymous No.2558488]

>>2558478
>fallout
>art

[Anonymous No.2558493]

>>2558407
>>2558414
>>2558415

Agree with all of these.

>>2558443

Enough with that shit. Not all games seek to be art, but those that do usually accomplish such quite well. You also seem to forget that videogames are composed of many different sorts of art -digital paintings, renderings and 3d sculptures, cinema, music, etc. If anything, video games are the quintessential form of modular art.

A good game will direct you through a very specific atmosphere and setting, which will allow the player to experience a comprehensive and full set of aesthetics.

Of course, many games are focused on simply being digital versions of sports or simulations, which are hard to classify as art to me.

[Anonymous No.2558494]

Okay, so so far we have

Killer7
Shin Megami Tensei Nocturn
Persona 3
Deus Ex
Spyro (?)
Fallout (?)
Nier
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Shadow of The Colossus
Mother 3
Earthbound
Eternal Darkness
LSD

Discuss.

[Anonymous No.2558497]

>>2558457
lol, did not expect to see an icycalm screed linked on /lit/ of all places. How long before we see some classic Tim Rogers?

[Anonymous No.2558498]

>>2558494
What's your reasoning for not including El Shaddai? I don't think anyone argued against it.

[Anonymous No.2558502]

>>2558407

Fuck yes. I love Killer 7. It's so goddamn good. I've thought about checking out Suda 51's other games but I know it won't be the same. I read this after my first playthrough and my mind was pretty much fuck: http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/562551-killer7/faqs/38193

>>2558452

Also a fantastic game. It's very unsettling at times, they're really isn't anything like it. It gets repetitive after awhile, but then something random will scare the shit out of you. I find that the game messes with my head in an interesting way. I try to look for patterns to see if I can trigger certain events yet I never reach a solid conclusion. If I jump off cliffs over and over again the game might randomly start me off next to one, etc.

Good LP: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC27A11B97FF7EE1F&feature=plcp

The guy who did that LP also did an obscure game one for a game I had never heard of called Hell Night. It's a puzzle/survival horror where you're in a giant subway and there's one monster that you can't fight and have to avoid giving the whole game a minotaur/labyrinth feel.

Lastly, I'd add Silent Hill 2. Shit is fucking fantastic. Perfect atmosphere. One of the basic ideas of the game is that monsters are physical manifestations of the character's psychology. With that depth, the amazing artwork and music, it's pretty much perfect. The fact that it's a video game and you're in control makes it far creepier than any movie or book could if someone attempted to adapt it to those mediums.

[Anonymous No.2558503]

>>2558494
Chrono Trigger

For its time it had the most beautiful aesthetic and the game itself is literally perfect

[Anonymous No.2558504]

>>2558498
Shit I just forgot it, sorry bro.

If you guys want I could start working on a graphic for future threads but I'm shitty at that stuff so if anyone else wants to step up and do it let me know.

[Anonymous No.2558509]

>>2558502
OP here, I thought about adding Silent Hill but I didn't want to get in a 1 vs 2 shitstorm in such early stages, but I would have to respectfully disagree and say that the first is much better than the second. Come at me.

Didn't comment on LSD because I haven't played it, but the Mikemnemonic LP was fucking legit and I'd love to play the game toasted if I could figure out how to work an emulator.

What system is this Hell Night game for? It sounds fun as fuck.

[Anonymous No.2558516]

It would be awesome if /lit/ pooled its intellect to make patrician charts for every medium

[Anonymous No.2558518]

If Shin Megami Tensei is good for the list, I would suggest Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross as well. Two games with marvelously well-realized aesthetics, the latter of which is also a terrifically dreamlike experience. They have some lolwackyanimushit, but so does SMT (Persona in particular). Yasumi Matsuno's game (Tactics Ogre, Final Fantasy Tactics) have very good stories as well attached to fun strategy games.

I would also bring up Flower, Sun & Rain (by the same people as Killer7), Metroid Prime (a phenomenal action-adventure game that tasks you with exploring a stunningly-rendered alien planet and tells a story with literally no dialogue), and even some of the better Zelda games (Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask and The Wind Waker come to mind). Oh, and also Metal Gear Solid 2, with that whammo of an ending.

Another World is also a minimalist action game that has been very influential on a number of ambitious game designers. It's not especially artistic or literary in its ambitions (you play a guy transported to a harsh alien world and you have to navigate a bunch of setpieces to survive - that's pretty much it) nor even especially fun, but its aesthetics were a revolution for its time and are appreciable even today.

[Anonymous No.2558519]

>>2558516
no that would suck

[Anonymous No.2558523]

>>2558509

Nah man, I ain't startin' shit. I just like 2 the most because it was my first experience in the Silent Hill universe (which is, of course, only games 1-3 and MAYBE 4). What made the 1st game better for you? I just liked 2 more because it's a more personal story about loss and that just speaks to me more.

Hell Night is on PS1 like LSD. I honestly don't know shit about emulators, but I still managed to get mine working by using youtube tutorials and googling questions. If you can torrent and google search, you can get a PSX emulator with LSD and Hell Night.

[Anonymous No.2558526]

>>2558509
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6YWbTSGFLQ&feature=plcp&context=C4edfc49VDvjVQa1PpcFMtlcmzp5
26rZT0k6ZAtz-SKchJaKzs5A0%3D
also any games played by him.

[Anonymous No.2558529]

Metal Gear Solid 2

[Anonymous No.2558532]

>>2558518

I love the games you mentioned, but I'd say that Majora's Mask is the closest thing to an "art-house" game. It has a cult following and will never be as popular as OoT because of it's darker tone, but I've always felt it was the superior of the two.

Any love for Abe's Odyssey/Exodous? Fucking loved those games...

[Anonymous No.2558533]

I have heard very good things about Planescape Torment, though I've never played it.

[Anonymous No.2558537]

>>2558518

Flower, Sun, and Rain was objectively shit and the story was bad. It only served to further Suda's development as a developer.

I don't think Metroid can be justified as art, but if you want to try, go for it.

Also, I would tend to agree with you that Wind Waker and Majora's Mask were both art, baked up by excellent gameplay. The story was shit on both games though, which kind of serves as a black mark. If I had to pick one, I would say Wind Waker was better. Majora's Mask was too grimmdark.

[Anonymous No.2558540]

I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream: The Game.

Look at the way each route is designed, and the way they're each creatively patterned off their character's history and personality flaws.

[Anonymous No.2558543]

>>2558523

Watching this LP, I think Hell Night is definitely a patrician level piece of art, same with LSD.

>>2558529
A good game is not equal to an artsy game.

[Anonymous No.2558544]

>>2558540
That was just an average adventure game.

[Anonymous No.2558546]

>>2558532
I love the concept behind Majora's Mask and wish the Zelda series would try something bold and experimental like that again, it's just that I hate the actual gameplay reality of it. If there are two things I hate in video games, it's being rushed and being forced to arbitrarily repeat the same actions multiple times. Not to mention, in a game whose meat and potatoes is exploration and puzzle-solving, a time limit is just about the last thing I want.

[Anonymous No.2558551]

I'm not nearly pretentious enough to defend this p4k style, but I'm sure someone else on here is.

[Anonymous No.2558557]

>>2558537
Let's please not get into a semantics debate about whether a particular game "is art". I thought this thread was just to talk about aesthetically remarkable games, which Metroid Prime absolutely is.

I liked FSR well enough. It was unpolished as hell, sure, but I thought the writing and atmosphere were pretty darn neat.

And Wind Waker had a pretty decent story IMO. It was a bittersweet little parable about growing up. Nothing phenomenal, but told with more heart and thought than other games in the series. All the Zelda game stories are filler excuse plots at worst and whimsical, Disney/Miyazaki-esque fairy tales at best. Wind Waker is definitely the best.

[Anonymous No.2558558]

No Psychonauts or Machinarium? Damn, you niggas don't know shit. Some of the best games around.

[Anonymous No.2558559]

Would anyone dare support the argument that Final Fantasy VII is a lovely piece of pulp art?

[Anonymous No.2558561]

>>2558557
>let's not have a discussion about what makes a video game art
>posting in a thread forming an essential arthouse vidya list

wat

[Anonymous No.2558562]

Also: anyone's thoughts on No More Heroes?

[Anonymous No.2558565]

>>2558561
I guess I'd deluded myself into thinking that "artsy" =/= "IS IT ART WE MUST DETERMINE DEFINITIVELY IF IT IS ART"

[Anonymous No.2558567]

>>2558562

Great game, great thought provoking story, but it pales in comparison to Killer7, which was Suda's superior game. It definitely deserves a spot more than NMH.

[Anonymous No.2558568]

So hey, how many denizens of forums.selectbutton.net are seeing this?

[Anonymous No.2558569]

>>2558544
Maybe the gameplay's rudimentary, but what about the story?

[Anonymous No.2558570]

>>2558567
I definitely thought Killer7 was superior to NMH in terms of plot and aesthetics, but NMH also had the advantage of being, like, an actual game that you could enjoy playing rather than an interactive art exhibit.

[Anonymous No.2558577]

>>2558569
Story isn't enough, games are their own medium, if a movie just put scrolling text on the screen for 3 hours telling you a story, you'd call it shit right?

[Anonymous No.2558579]

>>2558570
I concur, but I still think K7 had salvageable and decent gameplay, even if it was limited by the on-rails nature of it all.

[Anonymous No.2558584]

>>2558579
>implying Killer7 wasn't intentionally on rails as a commentary on how stagnant and deterministic international political crisis resolution is

[Anonymous No.2558585]

Almost fucking forgot: Silent Hill: Shattered Memories. Such an amazing, underrated game.

[Anonymous No.2558591]

>>2558585
Nope. SH2 is the only acceptable SH.

[Anonymous No.2558595]

>>2558584
i hate it when games limit themselves as games for the sake of art.
it just seems like they ignored the point of having it be a game instead of a visual novel.

[Anonymous No.2558600]

>>2558585
I don't want to sound like an asshole, but that game was a hamfisted piece of shit that tried way too hard to be 2deep4u and neglected all the elements of a good survival horror game.

Anyone make an infographic yet? We need to get on this shit

[Anonymous No.2558606]

>>2558595
I love Suda 51, but I am very skeptical that the flaws and questionable design decisions in his games were intended as meaningful artistic decisions.

[Anonymous No.2558609]

>>2558600
welcome to every american SH game.

[Anonymous No.2558613]

>>2558585

Great game, scared the shit out of me the first time I played.

>>2558591

Nah. The best, yeah, but not the only good one.

>>2558562

I couldn't even finish it. I got bored and sold it. What was so great about it? All I remember is waggling-> jobs -> tits -> waggling -> jobs -> tits, and so on.

I can't believe that Braid hasn't been mentioned. Probably the most arthouse vidya ever made, and its fucking incredible. Go torrent it now, its on piratebay.

[Anonymous No.2558617]

>>2558600
It wasn't really survival horror at all so much as a 3D adventure game with occasional action elements. And I absolutely dug it from start to finish. The atmosphere was incredible and the pacing was perfect. I think most Silent Hill fans just had a powerful knee-jerk reaction against it because it was (intentionally) very different from previous games.

[Anonymous No.2558618]

>>2558595
Killer7 would have sucked huge donkey nuts if it weren't on-rail.

Anyway, I nominate Arkham Aylum, just because I like Batman. If anyone feels up to the challenge of defending this, please, do.

[Anonymous No.2558619]

>>2558460
That sounds interesting. And I suspect you're correct about a video game being an 'experience.' I stand by what I said about game play interrupting story in games that are supposed to have a strong story, but if something like that can transcend the separation of story and game play, that'd be impressive.

>>2558493
Enough of that shit? I thought this thread was claiming video games as art. am I not allowed to dissent? Anyway, I'm aware there's different elements to video game the same way there's cinematography, music, lighting, writing, etc. in a film.

A video game can be good if accomplishes what it sets out to do. A action game that is fun to play can be considered good. A game that changes the genre and effects other mediums is art.

A game with new and interesting gameplay is only great in one area. Pikmin had new, innovative gameplay but a dumb, uninteresting story. It was good for what it was trying to do, but it didn't transcend.

Video games are a young art, too. They still need time to develop and capture the imaginations of a few different generations.

If I was to contribute something, I would add Katamari Damacy for its gameplay and pitch perfect tone.

[Anonymous No.2558620]

>reading books
>2012
A bigger time waster than video games

[Anonymous No.2558622]

>>2558600

Ta-da

[Anonymous No.2558623]

>>2558617
HURRDURR THE COLOR OF THE HOUSE IS THE COLOR OF THE CRAYON YOU PICKED XDDDD 10/10 WOULD BE MINDFUCKED AGAIN

Seriously, just gtfo

[Anonymous No.2558625]

What about Patapon?

[Anonymous No.2558626]

>>2558613
I watched a bro play braid, and even he says it wasnt anything special. i dont know the full extent of the story, so i'm not going to rip on that. but the creator seems like a douchebag hipster, and the gameplay itsself is essentially a 2D Blinx the time sweeper.

[Anonymous No.2558631]

>>2558619
>Katamary Damachi

MAH NIGGAH. You ever play it while high? Shit is so cash, it's like drowning in a sea of pillows and rainbows

[Anonymous No.2558633]

>>2558613
Braid the game was a pretty neat action-puzzler in the vein of Portal, but Braid the text-within-the-game was absolutely unbearable. Overwrought, sophomoric pretentiousness designed to be as impenetrable and incoherent as possible because "REAL ART IS HARD TO UNDERSTAND RIGHT, AND VIDEO GAMES ARE REAL ART NOW DAD SO FUCK YOU". Maybe I'm biased from reading one too many interviews with Jonathan Blow, but once you know what a condescending, pretentious fuck he is it's impossible not to see that condescending pretentious fuckery oozing out of every pore in the game.

[Anonymous No.2558637]

>>2558618
i kinda iffy on AA. it seems less artsy and more amazing action game (though the gameplay is sort of lacking as its the whole "time button to win" assassin's creed crap). but, i geuss it fits in the OP...
>>2558617
well, it deserved that because its shitty development. they didnt want to abandon a title they'd know would sell, just like the new bioshock infinite crap.

[Anonymous No.2558642]

>>2558631
I'm pretty sure that game got me high. But I'll have to try that. Wasn't smoking when that came out.

[Anonymous No.2558643]

>>2558623
Glad to see this thread has already degenerated to /v/ levels of discourse.

[Anonymous No.2558647]

Red Dead Redemption?

[Anonymous No.2558648]

>>2558643
A link was posted on /v/. Mods got to it quick, but there was still a bit of leakage from over there.

[Anonymous No.2558649]

>>2558637
Dude, the developers for Shattered Memories were huge fans of the series who wanted to do it justice. They decided that attempting to mimic the Japanese developers would be futile, so instead they put their own stamp on it. The final product is very different from the originals, but still distinctly Silent Hill.

[Anonymous No.2558650]

>>2558633
>>2558626

But that's the point, he's the main character complaining how being a pretentious hipster has lost him all of his friends, and how alone he feels all the time. He's a pretty unbearable person, but I find him interesting in a Ignatius J. Reilly sort of way. But yeah, don't let him as a person make you hate the game, just treat his person as another level of text and its pretty fun and TOODEEP4U in a good way. And seriously, the time travel mechanic is the best I've seen in any video game, so that's another upside to it.

[Anonymous No.2558652]

>>2558647
Fantastic Game.
about as artsy as your average western though, because it is a fucking western.
i dont think it fits in here.

[Anonymous No.2558655]

>>2558652
How's it artsy at all? It's just a tribute to spaghetti westerns. Good game, but not art.

[Anonymous No.2558656]

>>2558650
i cant really comment on a game i've not really played through to the end, but the mechanics of the time travel are VERY reminiscent of Blinx.
>>2558649
Still feels like a gimped version of silent hill though.

[Anonymous No.2558658]

I don't know, for myself and most of the people I talked to that was a very emotional game.

What is art except a conductor of emotion?

[Anonymous No.2558660]

>>2558652
>John Ford
>Sergio Leone
>Sam Peckinpah
>Robert Altman
Yeah, because directors of westerns are just so artless, amiright?

[Anonymous No.2558662]

>>2558655
exactly what i said though.
>about as artsy as your average western though

[Anonymous No.2558670]

>>2558655
>>2558652

I don't know, for myself and many people I know who played it that was a very emotional -and well told- story.

I mean, what is art but a conductor of emotion?

[Anonymous No.2558669]

>>2558660
thats not what i meant at all.
look, when most people think of westerns, they dont put them on the same level as van gogh or whomever, they go in a seperate sphere, a sphere that i dont think this thread is looking at.

[Anonymous No.2558671]

>>2558658
Art is the conveyance of a idea through a system of symbols.

[Anonymous No.2558674]

>>2558650
My only real criticism of Braid as a game is that some of the puzzles seemed a bit cheap, forcing you to waste your time until you realized you could do some simple thing that the game had given you no reason to believe you could do.

I get that the narration was "intentionally" overwrought, and even how it attempted to tie its themes into the game mechanics, but I don't think all of that really saves it in the end. It still reads like some undergrad trying to write a masterpiece who thinks that the point of literature is to barf up lots of metaphors and stream-of-consciousness blather concealing a super-secret profound hidden meaning, the more difficult to comprehend the better. (And if you read Jonathan Blow's thoughts on literature, it becomes pretty clear that that is in fact what he thinks.) It comes off as trying way too hard. The exact same game with only a tenth of the text would have been far more effective.

[Anonymous No.2558676]

Braid...bleh: http://kotaku.com/5878734/its-mario-versus-braid-in-the-ultimate-bar-conversation-battle-of-indie-cr
ed

[Anonymous No.2558682]

Ocarina of Time.

Pick your favorite game. Its not better than Ocarina of Time*.

If Ocarina of Time isn't on the top of your list, then it doesn't even deserve to be read.

Also, Metroid Prime. Dat atmosphere.

*Does not apply if your favorite game is Ocarina of Time.

[Anonymous No.2558687]

>>2558670
>>2558671

So anything that makes you cry is art? Fine. Then it's not high art or important art. That better?

[Anonymous No.2558690]

>>2558670
Going by that definition, then RDR is definately some high-tailed art.
>>2558674
5 star post.

[Anonymous No.2558692]

>>2558671
Art is the construction of a creative medium through which to express the emotions and/or ideas of its creator(s). Nothing more, nothing less.

[Anonymous No.2558704]

Earthbound was the single most surprisingly amazing game i've ever played.

So right off the bat the game asks you questions such as your favorite food and favorite thing, but when you actually start the game you find yourself a silent protagonist with absolutely no human characteristics whatsoever. The end goal is laid out for you in all of ten seconds by a future-bee, right at the start of the game, and the antagonist is completely faceless, his story doesn't progress whatsoever.

You know what happens, the game progresses and a colorful cast of characters appear as they do in videogames, but slowly, Ness starts to take form.

Then, boom. Lumine Hall. We're taken from outside of a dead and paper thin character and thrust straight into his thoughts as their displayed on the wall in front of everyone at a pivotal point in the adventure. Sure, he doesn't have much to say, but that had a big impact with me.

Shortly after we find ourselves in THE BEST LEVEL OF ANY VIDEOGAME EVER. Magicant. Holy shit, if the small invasion of a quiet kids thoughts was eyebrow-raising, magicant is fucking mindblowing. We're all of a sudden introduced to every person that has ever had an impact in this kids life, many we have never seen before and will never see again. One of the antagonists, Pokey, is personified along with Ness. Flying Man was fucking heartwrenching. Why would they let you kill all of them? Why did they make you WANT to kill all of them, just so you could sorrowfully read each of their tombstones?

[Anonymous No.2558709]

OP here, I made a list of games I think deserve to be on there, but its just like, my opinion man. Feel free to add/delete games as you please, but please tone down the /v/ levels of discourse. Sorry the layout is so shitty but someone can improve on it, I'm sure.

[Anonymous No.2558706]

>>2558682
Last year I got a 3DS and the remake of OoT and tried to play through it for the first time since I was 11. I was dismayed to find that it was not as mind-blowing as I remember - in fact, it was slow, sparse, clunky, and a bit dull. :( I think in light of that my Best Game of All Time title has been bumped to Wind Waker, which despite being blatantly unfinished is still one of the most marvelous experiences I've had in a narrative game.

Metroid Prime is fucking phenomenal though, easily in my top 5.

[Anonymous No.2558719]

>>2558709
Pardon my English but where the fuck is Chrono Trigger?

[Anonymous No.2558723]

>>2558709

Please don't attach /lit/ to this list. Especially with Spyro. There's absolutely nothing special about that game.

[Anonymous No.2558729]

>>2558704
Man, the problem with Earthbound for me is that like Killer7, in spite of its neato aesthetics it just isn't fun to play. I like JRPGs, but I'm not fond of the Dragon Quest model and Earthbound, despite a couple of marginal improvements (the ability to run away from/scare away enemies on the field map, for the most part, and the rolling HP system) is a pretty straight up clone that has all of DQ's grind (and then some) with none of its economy. I've heard Mother 3 is a lot more fun to play though, but I've yet to try it.

[Anonymous No.2558732]

Eh, this might be a bit better

[Anonymous No.2558734]

>>2558723
If you're going to include a psychedelic kiddie platformer on the list, you'd think one of the Mario games (1, World, Galaxy, Yoshi's Island) would be a more obvious choice.

[Anonymous No.2558737]

>>2558706

Ocarina of Time was my childhood brah. I fired it up for the first time since I was ten and I loved it. Played it on the Gamecube with the Collector's Edition this time around. I still come back to it every few months and give it a playthrough.

And yeah, Metroid Prime is great. Really regretting selling those games. That game really nailed what it was like to be alone in a scary and strange place. I mean just listen to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3hLx-FVgKk

It's been YEARS since I played those games and this soundtrack STILL sends shivers down my spine. Pic related.

Also, Paper Mario is fantastic as well. And I support Red Dead Redemption.

[Anonymous No.2558739]

>>2558723
>>2558719

Chill your boner, this all completely tentative, there will be more threads and discussions for us to get it right. This is just here to serve as a template.

[Anonymous No.2558747]

>>2558729
You're totally right. Although i barely found myself grinding at all in earthbound (especially after a certain part in the game-- you get leveled about 40 times at once) the battle system is totally boring. Utilizing Jeff can be fun as you don't really know what you're gonna get but learn all the time, but other then that the system is lame. The names of attacks and enemies are the only things keeping battle interesting

It was just one of those games that made me want to finish just because the plot was so fucking good.

Also the theories surrounding Giygas, even if that movie didn't contain a rape or childbirth, make the game worth millions to me.

[Anonymous No.2558751]

>>2558737

Paper Mario and RDR were great games, but they had no transcendent art-like qualities. It's like Phoenix Wright -- no one who has played Phoenix Wright hates it, and yet it doesn't belong on a list of arthouse games because its not art.

[Anonymous No.2558752]

>>2558747
I found Earthbound very tolerable with a speed-up button to use during the grindy battles.

(played it on a snes emulator)

[Anonymous No.2558759]

>>2558734
The original Mario Bros. could be included because of it's cultural impact, but I think a /lit/ list requires obscurity.

[Anonymous No.2558763]

Cultural impact =/= arthouse

Think of it like Bowling for Columbine vs. Citizen Kane

[Anonymous No.2558772]

Minecraft

[Anonymous No.2558778]

>>2558737
I adore Paper Mario, but there isn't really anything artsy about it. It has a lovely aesthetic, but it's basically just a (very good) Saturday morning cartoon. Even stuff like Chrono Trigger is in a different category. (BTW, lack of Chrono Cross discussion in this thread dismays me.)

I found Echoes to be a huge disappointment compared to Prime 1. The whole thing felt like a soulless rehash.

Also on Earthbound: I've picked it up a few times but always got bored with it before the halfway point and dismissed the plot as typical (well, slightly above-average) Japanese "lolwacky" stuff. It wasn't until I read in detail about the ending and personal accounts of what the game's fans see in it that I can now retrospectively respect the game, if not personally enjoy it. I've been told I would like Mother 3 better, but I've been putting it off for literally years, possibly because I feel like it could never possibly live up to the hype.

[Anonymous No.2558783]

>>2558763
Actually, if anything Super Mario Bros. would probably be considered arthouse if it WEREN'T for its cultural impact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2bAN9pPeiE&feature=player_embedded

[Anonymous No.2558785]

>Ctrl + F
>Journey
>No results

Excuse me?

[Anonymous No.2558787]

Tetris is in my mind a perfect example of a video games succeeding as an artform. Although it is far less complex than other games it is more than just a simple puzzle game. The gameplay can be deep, fun, accessible and challenging depending on how you approach it. I think someone could also approach the nature of the game from a philisophical standpoint and on some level find coherent ideas being represented (although this is just one man's opinion).

The most important thing is that Tetris only works as a video game (in the same way that Pac-Man or Mario are only really good as videogames).

[Anonymous No.2558793]

>>2558783

Even so, playing LSD is more like playing inside a surrealist painting than playing mario is.

[Anonymous No.2558794]

>>2558787
Tim Rogers once wrote an essay about how Tetris is symbolic of our struggle with death, or something along those lines. Please don't go Tim Rogers on us, though (/lit/ has enough of a hipster problem as it is).

For real though, I would say Tetris is a remarkable work of craftsmanship - timeless, elegant and entirely self-contained - but I dunno if I'd call it art, at least any more than I would call a car or a board game art.

[Anonymous No.2558798]

What do you guys think of Alex Kirkegaard?

[Anonymous No.2558800]

I think it's too early to be making templates for this kind of thing because we haven't even defined what constitutes artistic merit, but...

Metal Gear Solid
Chrono Cross
Final Fantasy Tactics (sort of)
Final Fantasy 7
Ocarina of Time

are all worth considering. And don't even get us started on pc games.

[Anonymous No.2558802]

>>2558798
Some of his theories are pretty interesting, but regrettably he is fucking insane.

[Anonymous No.2558803]

>>2558656
>the mechanics of the time travel are VERY reminiscent of Blinx.

What?

What?

I... What?

They are not even REMOTELY similar.

Blinx: You have the ability to affect time at will. You use your time controls to get through the levels while killing the enemies. Time abilities include stop, rewind, fast forward, record, etc.

Braid: Worlds have certain "time rules" that you have to deal with in order to get all the pieces of the painting. You learn what the time rules are though trial and error, and act accordingly. Time rules include a special ring that slows down time when things come near it, a strange time-moves-forward/backward-when-you-move-left/right rule, and some others.

tl;dr, In Blinx, you fuck with time. In Braid, time fucks with you. Very different.

[Anonymous No.2558804]

>>2558800
I approve of this list, though if one Metal Gear game warrants inclusion it's Metal Gear Solid 2.

[Anonymous No.2558805]

>>2558751
Red Dead Redemption was another game that nailed atmosphere. If you want to see if you really appreciate the game, step away from the gameplay for a minute and stroll around in the world. The gorgeous landscapes, fantastic soundtrack, and overall excellently designed overworld all tie in to the atmosphere. It's art.

As for Paper Mario, I love the bright painted look it has to its visuals. It's got a great chipper atmosphere. But I understand if you don't support it.

I consider most games art.

[Anonymous No.2558813]

Silent Hill 2 is not a perfect game by any means.

It IS however a perfect illustration of how a game can use the unique advantages of the medium to further telling a story.

[Anonymous No.2558814]

In defense of Spyro

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131581/lessons_in_color_theory_for_spyro_.php?page=3

[Anonymous No.2558815]

My problem with 'simple' games is that they just show the maturing of the medium. Tetris is like a silent film. It's good for what it is and you can see the form growing. Just consider that by the time Tetris was around the majority of the world's art in other mediums was already created. So:

Tetris=Moby Dick?
Tetris=Mona Lisa?

[Anonymous No.2558817]

>>2558800
Those are much too standard. I think /lit/ could make a list of arty games, and a list of /lit/ style games that are rich in lore/dialogue/story.

[Anonymous No.2558820]

Let's take inventory for the night.

GAMES TO ADD TO OP'S LIST:


GAMES TO REMOVE FROM OP'S LIST:

(anything we can agree on?)

[Anonymous No.2558822]

I'd get rid of Spyro and Persona 3, and add shin megami tensei nocturne. Journey looks pretty art house, though I haven't played it yet.

[Anonymous No.2558823]

>>2558813
This.

My byline on SH2 has always been that it's a game made by artists rather than game designers, which is both its greatest asset and its greatest weakness. As a game, it's just horrible and it violates so many common-sense game design principles (deliberately or not) it isn't even funny. But it's one of those games you have to play just once, on account of its remarkable plot and aesthetics.

[Anonymous No.2558824]

>>2558820
Pitch Persona 3. I think further discussion on Chrono Cross and the removal of Earthbound/Spyro is needed.

[Anonymous No.2558825]

>>2558813
>>2558823
I completely agree.

[Anonymous No.2558827]

I thought Killer7 was fun. The on-rails thing was pretty weird at first but I got over it pretty quickly. Even if it was a design choice made for the sake of some sort of deeper meaning, it was fine because, for me, it was still fun to play. However when you have a game like NMH where the choices made to get across commentary about video games and the people who play them (you kill faceless enemies of one design, there is one level that is literally just a corridor you run down and the mini-games you grind on are all horrible) start to make the game less fun. I still ended up enjoying the game (except for those parts obviously) but it does make me wonder if we're going to start getting games that are purely an intellectual or emotional experience as opposed to fun. Actually, I'm pretty sure we're already at that point actually with stuff like Dear Esther coming out.

[Anonymous No.2558828]

>>2558817
with due respect...

>too standard

is total bullshit. What is too standard? Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's bad. More importantly, just because it's obscure doesn't mean it's good. We could pull interesting games out of our collective ass all day, but please put away phrases like "too standard"

[Anonymous No.2558829]

>>2558820
Ditch Spyro and P3, add MGS2, Chrono Trigger/Cross, Silent Hill 2/Shattered Memories, Wind Waker.

[Anonymous No.2558830]

Hi.

[Anonymous No.2558831]

I'm totally in favor of adding Metroid Prime. Everything it did really did an excellent job of making it's world seem alive and immersive.

[Anonymous No.2558836]

If you can stomach the hipster, this series of articles is worth a look: www.actionbutton.net/?p=385

[Anonymous No.2558837]

>>2558802
I myself am too philosophically illiterate to figure out if he is crazy or some sort of genius. He is certainly well-read, I guess.

[Anonymous No.2558838]

let's regroup. Are we talking about GOOD games, or games with ARTISTIC MERIT? Because oftentimes these characteristics are mutually exclusive.

Exhibit A: Counterstrike
Exhibit B: Retro Indygame Nobodycaresabout

[Anonymous No.2558839]

>>2558828
The only artistically relevant game there is Chrono Cross. They're just good games.

[Anonymous No.2558840]

Echochrome was pretty fun you guys.

[Anonymous No.2558841]

>GAMES TO ADD TO OP'S LIST:
games I like


>GAMES TO REMOVE FROM OP'S LIST:
games I don't like

[Anonymous No.2558843]

OP here, what must be done must be done, but why do you niggers hate spyro so much? Anyone who read http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131581/lessons_in_color_theory_for_spyro_.php couldn't possibly overlook the artistic merits of the game.

Right? ;.;

[Anonymous No.2558850]

>>2558838
This isn't /v/. Even the OP said
>Only truly creative, aesthetic, and thought provoking games need apply.

The more important distinction is I think /lit/ should have a list of games in that vein, but also a list of literature-relevant games that involve detailed writing.

[Anonymous No.2558851]

>>2558843
I agree that Spyro was gorgeous for what it was, but great use of color just doesn't seem like merit enough to be artistically relevant

[Anonymous No.2558852]

>>2558829
I forgot >>2558831

Definitely do add Metroid Prime.

>>2558837
Trust me, he's crazy. As in, like, legitimately, actually disturbed. For ages I assumed his ridiculous attitude problems and bizarre leaps of logic meant he was a troll, but then I found out about some truly jawdropping shit he has gotten up to on other boards (and still does). He's crazy. Not that crazy people can't have some neat ideas, but with icycalm (seriously don't call him Alex Kierkegaard, that's just a pseudonym he took for himself to stroke his ubermensch delusions) the crazy gets in the way of the cogent a little too often.

[Anonymous No.2558853]

>>2558850
I agree. I've been itching to pitch Phoenix Wright/Hotel Dusk, but they just don't fit with OP's arthouse feel.

[Anonymous No.2558855]

>>2558850
So the latter category is System Shock, Planescape: Torment, and maybe Baldur's Gate.

[Anonymous No.2558857]

>>2558843
>read article
Pretty interesting. Maybe Spyro does have artistic value.
>watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW5QbTAx6gk
Nevermind.

[Anonymous No.2558858]

You judge the art value of a video game just by the storyline? Then painting and architecture are not art. What about the atmosphere, the inmersion? There are titles with a great creativity level in gameplay.
The problem appears when people compares video games with literature or cinema.

[Anonymous No.2558861]

Have already brought this up in this thread, but www.selectbutton.net is a pretty neat place for litfags seeking hoity-toity game discussion to go if they don't mind putting up with some intense smugness/hipsterism. The folks there can be a bit prickly and ride a high-ass fucking horse, but they have absolutely impeccable taste.

[Anonymous No.2558863]

>>2558855
>Planescape: Torment
I 100% had this in mind when I made that statement.

>>2558853
Those would be good for the second list too, in an "entertaining story" sense.

[Anonymous No.2558866]

>>2558857
Yes, the voice acting/story was shit.

[Anonymous No.2558867]

>>2558857
> "Looks like I've got some THINGS to do!!"

[Anonymous No.2558868]

>>2558867
>>2558857

>implying it matters when you're stoned

[Anonymous No.2558871]

>>2558852
Ah okay. Well crazy and genius or just very intelligent are kinda hard to tell apart sometimes mostly because a person like me has no idea what the fuck that person is talking about, though yeah his ideas are interesting even if he is actually insane.

[Anonymous No.2558872]

>>2558861
>making fun of Kotaku
I love this place already. Impeccable taste, indeed.

[Anonymous No.2558877]

>>2558850
I wonder... we know that games like SMB and shooters can be great fun, but what "art" games are there that are a total chore to play yet are still "art"?

In other words, if a game was so fucking godawfully shitty that it was practically unplayable, could it still be "art"?

[Anonymous No.2558878]

Pleb here; could Bastion be a contender?

[Anonymous No.2558880]

>>2558872
Beware, a couple of their members are Kotaku writers.

[Anonymous No.2558887]

>>2558878
Absolutely not. It fails as a video game. The visuals and narrator don't make it unique or good.

[Anonymous No.2558891]

>>2558877

Art =/= quality

The same applies for books or movies.

[Anonymous No.2558896]

Gadget: Past As Future. Such an underrated gem. And by the way, both Silver case & Flower Sun and Rain (well, and probably Moonlignt Syndrome) are much better than killer7 in so many ways. Also Pathologic is a good interactive experience for sure.

[Anonymous No.2558903]

>>2558891
but can you provide examples? If it's not measured by quality, it's just lolopinions, same as everything else.

[Anonymous No.2558909]

Journey

[Anonymous No.2558912]

>>2558887
>It fails as a video game.
You're a fucking moron.

>The visuals and narrator don't make it unique
Except they absolutely do
>or good
And they most certainly do. It's a well-told story with solid, strategic and skill-based combat. It's a great game. Unique visuals, great gameplay and a solid narrative and an incredible narrator. Whether or not it is "artsy" is a different story, though.

[Anonymous No.2558914]

Any thoughts on Indigo Prophecy?

[Anonymous No.2558924]

>>2558912
>well-told story
You don't read books
>solid strategic and skill-based combat
and you don't play video games.

[Anonymous No.2558927]

Where the fuck is Journey?
Where the fuck is Catherine?
Where the fuck is Ico?
Where the fuck is Shadow of the Colossus?
Where the fuck is Limbo?

[Anonymous No.2558932]

>>2558924
>You don't read books
There aren't many videogames with stories told better than in Bastion.

>and you don't play video games.
No, you just clearly have never played through Who Knows Where with all idols activated.

[Anonymous No.2558940]

>we have the best taste in literature
>/lit/

[Anonymous No.2558942]

>>2558924
The story part is entirely relative to the medium, comparing them with books is just retarded.

[Anonymous No.2558945]

>>2558927
This. This is just a /v/ list. This thread doesn't even belong on /lit/. Almost all these games are produced by major companies and sold in every store with the intent of making major money rather than making an artistic statement. Aren't there some indie games which would be truer to the 'arthouse' idea?

What's our definition of 'arthouse' anyway?

[Anonymous No.2558959]

>>2558927
Remove Limbo and Catherine from that list and it's okay.

[Anonymous No.2558961]

>>2558945
Yeah.
These.
>>2558927
With maybe the exception of Catherine.

[Anonymous No.2558985]

Bonus points for those who know this game.

[Anonymous No.2558987]

More points for people who know this game.

[Anonymous No.2558999]

>>2558985
Septerra Core

[Anonymous No.2559007]

Where the fuck is the love for PORTAL 2? I am disappoint /lit.

Also,
-Shadow of the motherfucking Colossus
-Metal Gear Solid 2
-REZ
-Bioshock

[Anonymous No.2559013]

This epitomizes what is unique about games as an unique art form.

[Anonymous No.2559020]

>>2559013
typos, fuck

still, mesmerizing vidya

[Anonymous No.2559023]

thought provoking..
MGS2
checkmate.

[Anonymous No.2559028]

2hus
Dodonpachi
Guwange
Mushihimesama
Tactics Ogre

[Anonymous No.2559033]

>>2559013
I was interested then saw it was on Dreamcast. Just another element that's holding back vidya as an art form. All these different consoles and the money required to be poured into your gaming system whether it be a PS3 (you'd need all the consoles to actually be fully game literate) or a graphics card, processor, etc. Even if a movie is hard to find, the work arounds tend to be inexpensive and not very complicated. Even easier with books as they can be dirt cheap.

[Anonymous No.2559035]

>>2558407

i didnt know anyone else in the world had played k7....i was a little obessive with that shit for a while...wonderfully mindblowing...

[Anonymous No.2559057]

>>2559007
Absolutely not Bioshock. Hateful, pretentious dreck.

[Anonymous No.2559063]

>>2558945
> commercial art can't be real art
What kind of hipster bullshit is this?

[Anonymous No.2559065]

>>2558927
All of these have been mentioned with the exception of Limbo and Catherine, which don't deserve to be.

[Anonymous No.2559077]

>>2559023
>same plot as Rambo

[Anonymous No.2559080]

>>2559063
I didn't say that. The label is supposed to be 'arthouse' which is specifically independent. Casablanca was a studio produced film and it is considered one of the greatest films, but it's not arthouse. The purpose of /lit/ lists being created for things other than books is to explore beyond the typically praised and dig deeper into a medium's history and culture. Which Spyro does not represent.

Now stop being a contrarian asshole.

[Anonymous No.2559086]

>>2559080
I thought we were looking for "artsy" games, not "arthouse" games.

[Anonymous No.2559087]

>>2559077
Did you even play it to the end?

[Anonymous No.2559091]

>>2559080
and arthouse as a label is fucking stupid. This might as well be "your favorite indy games thread" if you're not allowing major studios to contribute

the fact is, there are a lot more great professional games than there are arthouse games. I wouldn't tell someone to see some indie film if I knew they'd learn more, be more entertained, and overall be a more fulfilled person by seeing Casablanca.

[Anonymous No.2559094]

>>2559086
I have yet to see any actual criteria laid out rather than vague terms people don't seem to agree upon. My point is, why should we make a list that just looks like something that came from /v/? When you look at the list we're coming up with how is it any different from a /v/ best games list except that there's no fps?

[Anonymous No.2559098]

>>2559094
See >>2558850

Pretty sure the criteria are broadly understood, if not rigidly defined. At least, everyone but you seems to agree that there's no reason to focus only on indie games to the exclusion of studio titles.

[Anonymous No.2559099]

>>2559091
Thus the problem with video games as art. They require a lot of money to be produced and thus require a lot of sales. One of the reasons 'arthouse' films exist is because they wouldn't be carried by a major studio. Good art dissents. Makes bold statements. Makes people question what they think, believe, and trust. Make a list of video games that achieve this.

[Anonymous No.2559103]

>>2559099
Studio produced or not. I was just making an observation about how the list looked. I never said 'make it exclusively indie.' I just wanted more of a focus there.

[Anonymous No.2559104]

>>2559099
Good art descends. Makes lowering statements. Makes people think, question their beliefs on optimal height above sea level. Make a list of video games that achieve this.

[Anonymous No.2559107]

>>2559098
Also, this isn't a fucking /v/ list, come on. Not a single person has suggested Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, Sonic, Starcraft, Pokemon, visual novels, whatever. Sure there are some odd suggestions in a couple places (Spyro? Arkham Asylum?) but overall people seem to get the idea.

[Anonymous No.2559111]

Rayman Origins, the gameplay has a beautiful flow to it, the scenery is positively amazing with music to match. The Treasure Chase levels are some of finest platforming in years

[Anonymous No.2559117]

>>2559107
shrug.jpg

If you think it's representative of /lit/, go ahead. You guys obviously have this stuff in hand.

[Anonymous No.2559120]

>>2559099
Oh, please. Don't give us this "REAL art is SUBVERSIVE" nonsense. Art doesn't have to express some totally edgy, underground concept or be a tremendous fucking downer. All it has to do is use its aesthetic properties to express the ideas and/or feelings of its creator, whether they are like totally sticking it to the man or not. Plenty of video games do that, to varying degrees of success and elegance, and some of the better ones have been named on this list.

[Anonymous No.2559130]

/lit/ should have more video game threads, it's nice to be able to have intelligent discussions about vidya without a barrage of name-calling and exhausted memes.

[Anonymous No.2559144]

>>2559130
Shut up casual. I bet you play vidya for fun. You really justled my rimmies. Now let me go back to my superior gaming in my PC as the part of the master race that I belong to.

Somebody had to do the stupid /v/ tr00 gamur thing.

[Anonymous No.2559151]

>>2559130
Next we need to start doing animu threads so I never have to go to /a/ again

[Anonymous No.2559176]

>>2559151
Why is Sayaka such a bitch? You're waifu is a slut. You fucking moefags.

>Coalgirls
>Naruto is a gateway anime of the worst kind
>is Rebuild really that good?
>Japanese train stations
>Saber is my waifu

[Anonymous No.2559184]

>>2559176
This is so fun to read out loud

[Anonymous No.2559198]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9y6MYDSAww&feature=player_embedded#!

[Anonymous No.2559205]

>>2559151
While were at it, let's start posting random stuff on /lit/ so we don't have to go to /b/. Let's just make /lit/ the new /b/, wouldn't you guys just love that?

[Anonymous No.2559222]

>>2559205
Yes.

[Anonymous No.2559224]

Deadly Premonition is pretty artistic as video games go. It kind of falls apart in the last third or so, but it's surprisingly good up until that point.

[Anonymous No.2559226]

>>2559224
Need to play that when it comes out on PS3

[Anonymous No.2560255]

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html

[Anonymous No.2560279]

>>2560255
Please, no.

[Anonymous No.2560295]

>>2560255
Don't start with that here.

[Anonymous No.2560318]

>>2560279
>>2560295

Video games come under 'sports and games', not art.

also
>trying to police the board
lol

[Anonymous No.2560327]

>>2560255
I would think /lit/ would be smarter then to take anything Ebert says seriously.

[Anonymous No.2560365]

>>2560318
Sure, if like Ebert you're going by an understanding of what a "video game" is that's about 30 years out of date.

[Anonymous No.2560387]

>>2560365
The 'avant garde' video games that have no linear path or objective, don't change that fact. You're still simply following instructions of the game designer. if you take video games as art, you'd better accept wandering through mazes and labyrinths as art because it's the exact same thing. maybe topiary and game design is artistic but playing games as not. It's a skill (like following a maze or a nature trail) but that isn't art.

[Anonymous No.2560405]

>>2560387
If mazes had narratives then yeah, they would be art.

But seriously though, we are not having this debate, it is a stupid semantics game and a dead horse that has already been beaten into an unrecognizable pulp all across the internet.

[Anonymous No.2560423]

I can't believe you people don't realize that gameplay is video games biggest strength when it comes to "artsy-ness"
When all the elements of the game work together flawllessly like in Super Metroid.
Story is important sure but if you think thats what video games should be about you should stick to books. Its like saying movies would be better if the visuals didn't get in the way, pants on head retarded of you /lit/.

[Anonymous No.2560441]

surprising no one has dropped Missile Command. kafkaesque gaming in its simplest form. you cant fight back.
the best you can do is keep all of your bases in tact. but level by level the bombs fall faster and the numbers of them flood the screen. theres no way to keep up. the path begins normal and can only go straight down until everyone is dead.

fun game to play and when you think about whats really being represented on the screen it can really take the piss out of your day.

[Anonymous No.2560452]

>>2560441

Further reading (well watching):
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/narrative-mechanics

[Anonymous No.2560460]

>>2560423
Did you even read the entire thread? Metroid came up multiple times.

Also, there's a difference between "story" and "narrative". The "story" in games exists in the dialogue, text, cutscenes, etc, but the "narrative" is (or should be) conveyed through the environments, game mechanics, etc. The most "artistic" games are those with a great narrative, which may or may not be paired with a great story.

[Anonymous No.2560474]

Was that essentials list for films ever actually made? I only saw the beginning of a thread about it

[Anonymous No.2560533]

>>2559224
The last third is amazing. If you just accept the game's universe the way it is, the game just gets better and better as it goes on. And it's the only game I was disappointed by the ending. Not because the ending was bad, but because I didn't want it to end at all.

[Anonymous No.2560557]

>>2560474
It's not an essentials list. Just a list of good movies.

>>2557481

[Anonymous No.2560568]

>For example, I tend to think of art as usually the creation of one artist.
A film critic said this. lol

[Anonymous No.2560572]

>>2560255
>he takes ebert seriously!

[Anonymous No.2560577]

>>2560533
Oh please. The beginning promises a surrealistic psycho-sexual murder mystery with an emphasis on human characters and touch of small town America's dark side thrown in for good measure, which would have been fantastic if it had been delivered. What we get instead is EVIL BLACK MAGIC, SUPER SAYAN SERIAL KILLERS WHO ARE PURE EVIL, and EVIL DEMON WHO PLANTS TREES IN HUMANS BECAUSE HE'S EVIL.

What a fucking joke.

[Anonymous No.2560584]

>>2560568
>thinking this is to be taken literally
>thinking the director/writer doesn't have the initial vision and everyone else works to achieve that vision
>believing music, books, or visual art typically doesn't start with a single person

What are you? A dumb gamer?

[Anonymous No.2560599]

>>2560577
Yes, it was way over the top but somehow it still worked out. I can see why it might not be that way for some people but personally I just happily accepted everything the game had to offer. And even though it went EVIL BLACK MAGIC all over the place, the emphasis was still on the characters. If you didn't struggle at least a little at the poin where you had to shoot someone, something had gone wrong.

[Anonymous No.2560606]

>>2560405
narrative isnt necessarily art. what the fuck makes you think that?

[Anonymous No.2560635]

OK, so I'm a bit late to this party...and the thread is too long.
What do you guys have on the list so far?

[Anonymous No.2560641]

i haven't read the thread and i'm not oging to but I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that 99% of you don't normally post here and are probably from /v/ or whatever

[Anonymous No.2560663]

>>2560635
That's the funny thing... We have nothing. This thread devolved into MY GAME IS ART BUT YOURS ISN'T and GAMES ARE NEVER ART ANYWAY like we all knew it would.

[Anonymous No.2560671]

Haven't played this in about 5 years but I remember it being a very aesthetic game.

Decent story
Incredible dark artwork
Good level design
Cool creature design
Good music
Good SFX

It was hard as frozen shit though. Probably the first game I ever played where the eventual ending was not a happy one.

[Anonymous No.2560684]

>>2560606

Why isn't narrative always art?

[Anonymous No.2560694]

>>2560460
My point still remains because I was considering "story" and "narrative to be synonyms. Tetris has no narrative whatsoever, does that make it shit? and don't pull semantics with me I know your not implying that no Art = shit.
And no I didn't read the threads because it is fucking painful to read any board I like talking about another boards territory because most people on 4chan are complete plebs/casuals outside of the board they frequent most.

[Anonymous No.2560696]

>>2558443
I can't remember the name of it, but there was some artsy sort of game with a narrator that did a good job of dealing with this. The narrative and story bent AROUND your interactions with the world instead of the opposite, as you described in your post. If there's any form that might help the gaming industry, it's that.

[Anonymous No.2560702]

video games are shit art. someone make a video game where you walk into a room and your family is dead and you just cry

[Anonymous No.2560711]

>>2560684
narrative is just chronology. Artistic narrative is more expressive.

[Anonymous No.2560723]

>>2560696
maybe i'm wrong, i only played a demo and can't really remember it, but i think Bastion may have been like that.

[Anonymous No.2560727]

>>2560702
That's basically how I feel. It's impossible to feel for video characters as for film or literature characters because you're distracted by the task or because since you're controlling the character it's akin to crying for yourself, and not empathic or sympathetic. Even the most tragically eventful game (heavy rain) doesn't have this necessary emotional power.

[Anonymous No.2560728]

>>2560711

Why can't chronology be expressive?

[Anonymous No.2560732]

>>2560728
It can. That's when it's art. But it isn't necessarily.

You didn't pay attention to what I said.

[Anonymous No.2560733]

>>2560727
Heavy Rain is awful, if it were a movie would just be another sub-par serial killer and torture porn film. What the fuck are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.2560734]

>>2560727
yeah, i can see video games becoming 'worthy' in like a pop-art/net-art kind of way. like someone making a video with no purpose, something more like interactive art, im trying to think, oh maybe like a video game where you walk around and kill and rape old women and children, it would be like a message about violence

[Anonymous No.2560735]

>>2560723
That was exactly it, thanks anon.

[Anonymous No.2560737]

or a video game where you win by killing yourself, like u go to the store and buy pills and go home and take them, or cut yourself w/e

[Anonymous No.2560745]

>>2560733
I didn't say heavy rain was a good game, just that it's obvious that there are plenty segments meant to be emotionally powerful

now we're into aesthetic taste so it's useless arguing about that but it's effectively all that matters - how it's critically received. the critics determine whether something is an art. although there are video game critics they don't do a very good job of justifying their medium and only really act as advertisers. In order to recognise video games as art you'd need an intellectual heavy (someone with plenty social capital) to talk about symbolism and metaphor and foreshadowing and everything scholars discuss with literature.


>What the fuck
Also try not to get worked up. I'd really like to have a civilised discussion instead of some spiteful rendition

[Anonymous No.2560762]

>>2560732

When is it not?

[Anonymous No.2560772]

>>2560737
it doesn't work to just intensify the action or emotion. art is more han just that empathic catharsis. if it weren't then the highest form of art would be the most melodramatic and sentimental - the biggest tear jerker basically.
even if you attempted to do this, the fundamental principles of gaming obstruct any connection that might be had. The task gets in the way. the same way we don't have this argument about sport band chess being art. they're games.


>>2560762

When it's just a chronology. When it reads as a timeline in prose.

[Anonymous No.2560785]

>>2560772

>When it's just a chronology. When it reads as a timeline in prose.

Why isn't that expressive?

[Anonymous No.2560786]

>>2560772
no bro, remove the game part of it, then you can make some good art, no winning or losing, or winning is trivial. videogames as interactive media, its basically pop art

[Anonymous No.2560788]

>>2560785
of course even that could be figured as expressive but only if you expand definitions so that the very word 'expression' and 'art' become universal and the distinction (the necessity of having the word in the first place) becomes meaningless.

>>2560786
Okay but that's not video games as art. that's just video as art, which I have no problem with.

[Anonymous No.2560888]

>>2560663
And we win. Shit thread derailed. Go back to /v/ and prove to your mommy and daddy that your vidya games are important.

[Anonymous No.2560969]

Fallout 1, 2, and New Vegas.

Haters are going to hate.

[Anonymous No.2560976]

>>2560969
My point exactly.

[Anonymous No.2560991]

I like video games in which I can compete and understand the mechanics and systems to some depth, and play with friends in a way that represents both rivalry and companionship. I do not care for video games that I can "analyze," as most of them are created by post-Modernists who miss the exact point of their medium. I assume that, as I stated above, pursuing these male traits through a virtual medium makes me childish, as that is what I get called many times when I state my preference for video games.

I've come here to get an opinion on this situation, though if I get an unfavorable one I will disregard it anyways.

[Anonymous No.2561012]

>>Video game thread
>>200+ replies

Fuck you /lit/

[Anonymous No.2561022]

>>2561012
yeah, /lit/ also loves to discuss movies, music, and Sasha Grey.

but /lit/ hates to discuss books.

[Anonymous No.2561024]

The Void is pretty "artsy", has simple symbolism as well.

[Anonymous No.2561076]

This thread was pretty good last night, what the fuck happened

[Anonymous No.2561088]

Repping Mother 3; some of the most faultless pathos I've ever seen in any piece of fiction

It is a damned fine game to play, as well as "read"

[Anonymous No.2561091]

>>2561076
And before anyone blames /v/: /lit/fags whining about how "VIDEO GAMES AREN'T REAL ART" and "WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT VIDEO GAMES, BAAAAW" are doing a way better job of shitting up this thread than, well, anyone else at the moment.

[Anonymous No.2561105]

>>2561012
>>2561022
>one vidya thread
>everything else lit related

Cunts.

[Anonymous No.2561120]

>>2561091
>>2561076

Shut up. Your discussion sucked. It equated to 'This is was good story!' 'No it wasn't! This was!' See how quickly we were able to put together a film list? That's because it's a well-defined medium with varying levels of quality from high art to populace schlock.

You regressives were nominating Tetris. You guys can't even figure out the difference between a 'game' and 'art.' Do that and maybe /lit/ will take you seriously.

[Anonymous No.2561124]

>>2561105
Help me find this book
I just bought a kindle
Which should I read?
Recommend me books


They aren't really /it/ related

[Anonymous No.2561128]

>>2561024
http://ctrlclick.com/2010/01/on-feminine-representation-in-the-void/

It's a Russian game by the way.

[Anonymous No.2561133]

>>2561124
>book
>kindle
>read
>book

Shut up with your semantics and start a lit thread. If no one's replying it's probably because you're an idiot and everyone hates you.

[Anonymous No.2561151]

>>2561091
That's fine. But still my claim I've argued throughout this thread that video games aren't art remains. making games is a creative pursuit. but art is more than creativity. For art there is reciprocal relationship or implicit dialogue between between the artist and the interpretor that doesn't exist with video games. it's blocked off as vidya sits in the role of sport and gaming. For video games to be art then hockey and solitaire would be art. Like hockey and solitaire, video games are creative and skillful but not art in the manner that is defined by literature, music, film and painting. Of course you could just dissolve the boundaries and say games (video and board) are art but that negates the distinction of even having the

[Anonymous No.2561163]

This thread is in a tight spot. A real tight spot. In the name of Harmon...

[Anonymous No.2561169]

>>2561151
This debate has been had a few billion times in various venues by now and isn't worth derailing this entire thread to have again.

The long and the short of it is that video games are a young and populist medium, and so there exists a brigade of patrons of the traditional arts scrambling to come up with reasons why video games "can't" be "real" art. The same thing happened with film and comic books, just to name the two most recent examples. Just like those mediums, a few decades from now the question will be considered a non-issue as the medium has matured and secured its place within mainstream popular culture. Today's Pauline Kaels will give way to tomorrow's Roger Eberts, etc. etc. It's a pretty pointless debate.

[Anonymous No.2561170]

itt romanticists and people who've never heard of Marcel Duchamp

[Anonymous No.2561181]

>>2561169
Will the medium really mature that quickly?
Which video games will still be relevant decades from now?
I think that it might take a lot longer for video games to mature compared to film. It's already been 4 decades now and we really don't have much to show for it.

[Anonymous No.2561182]

>>2561169
What if I don't want games to be art because I'd rather play more interesting video games with innovative gameplay mechanics rather than annoying half-and-halfs of mediocre story and rehashed gameplay that appease no one?

[Anonymous No.2561190]

>For art there is reciprocal relationship or implicit dialogue between between the artist and the interpretor that doesn't exist with video games.

Video games are especially suited to that. Whether they actually will is something else entirely.

Seriously you would all be better off if you understood dadaism and conceptual art as part of a revolt against romanticism. Games aren't even a radical departure compared to those traditions. The romantics considered a "closed" work of absolute art, with the creator as affirming, communicating or evaluating something transcendent or sublime the only valid mode of expression. Ignoring all the political implications of such an ethos, it simply isn't true for most of humanity. The only difference with most video games is that the player now assumes a small role in how the story is told.

Next you're going to tell me an oral tradition isn't art because no one tells the same story twice. You can smell the petit bourgeois sentiment on this thread.

[Anonymous No.2561188]

>>2561169
please don't lump me in with the old whiners. I'm young, I've played video games all my life and love them. But there is divide between the necessary attributes of gaming (board, outdoor or video) and art. it's useful to preserve some distinction or else the we lose sight of just what we mean by expression if gaming is lumped in with art. My argument does not solely come from a stubborness to maintain a cultural elite. In fact I"ve worked towards a synthesis of our ideas.
Video games stand on new ground as 'artistic sport'. on one hand it is a game, like chess or monopoly, which means it is not an art. but on the other, it is interpretative. In fact this dual purpsoe was evideant all along since it was referred to as 'video' (the art part) and game (the non art part). Video/games are complex intermediary between traditional narrative or expressionist art and competitive or objective. The dividing line lies somewhere in the middle with 'video' on one side and 'game' on the other, though that's not imply that scripted video games are more artistic. it depends on a complex array of factors associated with style of the story and objectives.

[Anonymous No.2561194]

>>2561182
Then 1) you don't understand what makes games art, and 2) you are basically expressing Kael's retrospectively hilarious fear that the the existence of "artistic" works within the medium will somehow marginalize those made for pure entertainment.

[Anonymous No.2561197]

>>2561182
exactly, blurring i distinction i referred to >>2561188 is actually bad for the video games industry. VG should want to maintain their gaming side or else they just become films.

[Anonymous No.2561202]

>>2561194
There's a difference between fun and entertainment, bro.

[Anonymous No.2561204]

>>2561169
>The same thing happened with film
Nope.
>and comic books
Then they made some serious art.

All you can do is project that video games will mature into art. Just hope that corporations will loosen the chock hold they currently have on the video game market. There sure won't be a video game equal to the Sistine Chapel in my lifetime.

[Anonymous No.2561206]

>>2561188
>"The chess pieces are the block alphabet which shapes thoughts; and these thoughts, although making a visual design on the chess-board, express their beauty abstractly, like a poem. ... I have come to the personal conclusion that while all artists are not chess players, all chess players are artists." - Marcel Duchamp

[Anonymous No.2561210]

>>2561163

And Killer 7 looks like the equivalent of Fight Club. Am I wrong?

[Anonymous No.2561216]

>All you can do is project that video games will mature into art. Just hope that corporations will loosen the chock hold they currently have on the video game market. There sure won't be a video game equal to the Sistine Chapel in my lifetime.

The commercial nature of the medium is a problem, but it's even more problematic to create some kind of rubric of expression with the work of Renaissance masters on one end and populist commercial art on another. That's simply a subjective hierarchy based on entrenched artistic conventions and nothing else.

[Anonymous No.2561226]

>>2561206
he's just talking about skill. I;m not denying there's skill in games. I'm sorry if it offends you but there is distinction between games and art. Competitive online games should want to preserve the distinction. it ensures that a unique form of skill is recognised rather than being overly generous in labelling shit gameplay and losers keyboard turning as 'art'.

[Anonymous No.2561235]

The reason I don't want to associate gaming with art is because I suck at games and I can't honestly tell myself that I'm performing an art when I'm playing really badly at video games.

[Anonymous No.2561241]

>>2561226
He absolutely is not.

There's nothing offensive other than your own intellectual prejudice against popular modes of expression. You sound like the frankfurt school shitheels whining about jazz in the 30s with even less substance. Your attitude is one endemic to the white petit bourgeoisie.

>Competitive online games should want to preserve the distinction. it ensures that a unique form of skill is recognised rather than being overly generous in labelling shit gameplay and losers keyboard turning as 'art'.

Art is literally a weasel word that means "i like this a lot". Thanks for clearing that up.

[Anonymous No.2561242]

>>2561181
Yes.

Ask me again in 30 years. The ones mentioned in this thread will probably be among them, though.

Artistically mature comic books (e.g. A Contract With God) didn't exist outside of the avant garde scene until nearly 60 years after the introduction of the medium into mainstream culture. If anything, video games are maturing faster.

[Anonymous No.2561247]

>>2561242
There's no teleological development of an "artistic" tradition for gaming either. People will either make something of value or they won't, but the medium itself has nothing to do with that.

For fucks sake am I in some kind of time warp where people are posting on 4chan from 1825?

[Anonymous No.2561250]

>>2561216
>That's simply a subjective hierarchy based on entrenched artistic conventions and nothing else.

You're right. Video games shouldn't have to live up to any sort of artistic standard. Just let them be. Seriously? We're not talking about an artistic movement, we're talking about an entire medium. Film, literature, music, and visual have all different movements and styles. If the medium can't go beyond pop art, then it's pretty worthless.

[Anonymous No.2561252]

>>2561241
You could not be more wrong. I am not downgrading video games by sparating them from art. I do it because I want people to recognise that there is a unique and difficult skill level involved in playing video games that isn't nearly the same as throwing paint on a canvas or writing a crappy murder mystery novel.. Seriously, enough with your own prejudice. I haven't even conveyed any elitism.

[Anonymous No.2561258]

>>2561204
> mfw the Sistine Chapel ceiling was a work commissioned by a huge organization for a lot of money

[Anonymous No.2561260]

>>2561241
>Art is literally a weasel word that means "i like this a lot". Thanks for clearing that up.

okay you didn't understand what I said there. I never said anything of the sort.

[Anonymous No.2561263]

>>2561250
And that's perfectly fine, but criticism on those lines does not entail the medium itself, just what people choose to make inside the medium.

There's nothing inherently worthless about being populist other than your own pretensions to the contrary. You're simply standing on the shoulders of the elitist dinosaurs of the 19th century and proclaiming one thing "art" and another "not art".

>>2561260
My apologies. It sounds like you want to preserve a semantic distinction because people are prone to going overboard with calling a round of counter-strike art? The problem is that since the early 20th century no one in the visual arts actually took it that seriously aside from a few isolated pockets of neo-romantics with a political agenda against modernism. They were called fascists.

[Anonymous No.2561266]

>>2561258
>mfw you don't understand shit about history and the difference between a commission artist and employees

[Anonymous No.2561272]

I don't feel that you should judge a game entirely on it's narrative. The inherent nature of a video game is to provide an experience to the player, not to tell a story.

[Anonymous No.2561275]

>>2561206
Only in the sense that they are in the genre of the mindfuck. Killer7 is much broader, open to more interpretation , and much harder to understand.

[Anonymous No.2561280]

>>2561272
If you look at gaming from a lit crit perspective and nothing else you're going to fall short 100% of the time. Games are hybrids of art and often amount to less than the sum of their parts due to commercialism and poor design. Oh noes.

>>2561275
Right, I don't think Killer7 is some kind of vanguard of video game storytelling but it's worth having a look at. Same MGS1, Deus Ex and Mother series. It's not going to bring you to tears in awe of the sublime but there are a lot more variables to consider when making a game than any other form. Is it any wonder that they are pathologically cautious?

[Belle & 'Lil Sebastian !!DpfF9riVhsM No.2561281]

>implying there is such a thing as superior taste or intellect
>implying knowledge or human creation have any value outside of the artificially constructed contexts that we have contrived
>implying that all of the universal truths we continue to strive for will elude us for eternity because the exist outside of the comprehensible, constrained constructs of our modes of thought
>implying >>2561170 isn't the only person in this thread with their shit together including me

[Anonymous No.2561282]

Ghost Trick.

[Belle & 'Lil Sebastian !!DpfF9riVhsM No.2561284]

>>2561281
sorry, *won't continue to. should be:
>implying that all of the universal truths we continue to strive for won't continue to elude us for eternity because the exist outside of the comprehensible, constrained constructs of our modes of thought

[Anonymous No.2561290]

Every popular console/PC game these days has some sort of plot, dialogue, characters, cutscenes, etc. as well as detailed graphics, sound, and other aesthetic elements. Most just serve as an excuse framework to provide context to the action. What would games as a medium lose from simply having a higher artistic standard for this aesthetic content? Can't you imagine a game that's exactly like, I dunno, Call of Duty in terms of gameplay, but has writing and visual aesthetics have some sense of artistic purpose to them? Why wouldn't you rather play that than the same thing only with shit aesthetics?

[Anonymous No.2561291]

>>2561263
Nope. Here's what a video game that aspires to be art is:

Film->some gameplay->film->some gameplay->film with music playing throught out and projected through visuals.

My problem is that no matter what, the core of a video game is gameplay and that part of it will always be a game. It's like a musical where the story is not interrupted for music, but for gameplay which has yet to be shown as art and not a game.

[Anonymous No.2561300]

>>2561291
You either haven't played very many video games or are really new to the concept of critically examining the medium.

[Anonymous No.2561306]

>>2561291
Those conventions you describe aren't ubiquitous to video games nor do they make the medium inherently 'not-art'. You're blaming the medium itself for your own lack of expertise and imagination on it. You're no better than pedants like Ebert.

I wish I could detain retards like you in a camp and force you to learn about theories of art that are less than a century old.

[Anonymous No.2561954]

>>2561291
It's been almost universally accepted within the game criticism/development community that reliance on the "gameplay->cutscene->gameplay->cutscene" design is an obsolete and misguided method of conveying narrative and thematic depth in games. Not that cutscenes are always inappropriate or inherently bad, but today it's generally agreed upon that action, dialogue and plot advancement should be kept within player-controlled portions of the game as much as possible, and that the environments and game mechanics themselves should produce the narrative and tie into its themes.

So, I'm guessing you've played a very limited selection of games and/or haven't spent much time (if any) reading real game criticism (e.g. Gamasutra, Edge, Extra Credits, Insertcredit, Gamespite, Insomnia, Actionbutton).