This is a fantastic fucking book.

File: 51 KB, 250x377, canticlecover.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 18:47:59 2012 No.2490441 [Reply] [Original]

This is a fantastic fucking book.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 18:48:59 2012 No.2490446 >>2490441 Okay, i don't really care about your fetishes, how is it for reading?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 18:50:58 2012 No.2490452 I concur with OP. One of my favorites.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 18:50:58 2012 No.2490453 >>2490446 Great.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 18:53:58 2012 No.2490467 I found its commentary on the cyclical nature of history and the dualistic relationship between religion and science to be quite thought provoking.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 19:13:58 2012 No.2490528 File: 46 KB, 266x284, donthate.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] How are the religious aspects in the book? Call me close-minded but too pro-religious works aren't my bag

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 19:22:58 2012 No.2490548 >>2490528 close minded bigot

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 19:35:58 2012 No.2490576

I agree OP, fantastic book.

>>2490528
Neither for nor against. They are meerly a plot point upon which to further the overall message the book is attempting to convey.

But of course, if any contact with religious persons within the text is something you just can't bring yourself to read, then this or any other piece of literature outside of the odd Richard Dawkins book, won't be your thing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 19:36:58 2012 No.2490578 Hadn't heard of this curious book. Btw, has this been translated to spanish?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 19:37:58 2012 No.2490579 >>2490528 What do you think about religious people who prefer not to read works too pro-atheism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 20:00:58 2012 No.2490603 File: 22 KB, 159x300, virgo1-159x300.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2490528 > I prefer to ignore large parts of the Western canon because I'm a fundamentalist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 20:26:00 2012 No.2490635 >>2490528 you should be fucking ashamed of yourself

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 20:41:58 2012 No.2490684

>>2490635

there's a difference between works that involve religious topics and religions and a book that is "PRO RELIGIOUS" i.e trying to peddle its goods and sell you some bullshit

it's the same as pro-facism or pro-racism books

those books are shit tier by default, no exceptions, and this is what open minded people agree on

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 20:47:58 2012 No.2490691

>>2490684
first off equating religion to racism or fascism is straight-up offensive (and to clarify, i am in no way religious, any more than i am racist or fascist). religion is a force, present in human societies through history, with effects both beneficial and malignant, but which has been loved by many who were both good and intelligent; racism and fascism are intellectual doctrines of hate. Second, your argument here is straight-up wrong, and amounts to 'I refuse to read books which advance arguments with which I disagree'. This is a bad attitude to take. I do read books that are fascist and racist, in addition to religious books. I disagree with them entirely, but I still read them and think about them, because I can entertain the ideas and arguments advanced without endorsing them. Third, the argument that from a literary perspective a book which is politically disagreeable, racist, or religious is inherently inferior is simply incorrect. Horrible people are capable of creating beautiful things. If such a book is pedantic in intent, it will suffer artistically, but the simple inclusion of distasteful or repugnant ideas does not make a book worthless, any more than the endorsement of an idea by a great artist makes that idea correct or acceptable. How many artists endorsed the Nazis or the Stalinist USSR? And yet their art did not suffer for it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 20:52:58 2012 No.2490699 I liked it up until the weird religious shit with the mutant at the end. Ignoring that it's in my top 50

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:04:59 2012 No.2490722

>>2490691

>racism and fascism are intellectual doctrines of hate.

The three major religions include doctrines of hate and I think they are precursors to fascism; they certainly provided a good blue print for racism, arbitrary discrimination and blind allegiance to destructive irrational causes.

>'I refuse to read books which advance arguments with which I disagree'. This is a bad attitude to take.

It's because I've read such books that I find them detestable and thoughtless and at this point utterly void of any value.

>argument that from a literary perspective a book which is politically disagreeable, racist, or religious is inherently inferior is simply incorrect. Horrible people are capable of creating beautiful things.

Having racist elements in a book is one thing, writing a pro-racist book and trying to spread racism is another. Likewise for a pro-religious book. The author's character is irrelevant. The text is what matters.

If the prime thesis of your book is one of fascistic religious hogwash, then it is by definition inherently terrible, no matter how flowery its prose is.

You can put lipstick on a pig....

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:08:58 2012 No.2490732 File: 11 KB, 390x470, 1330763167876.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2490684 > and this is what open minded people agree on oh man, keep going bro

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:13:59 2012 No.2490746

>>2490722
>The three major religions include doctrines of hate and I think they are precursors to fascism; they certainly provided a good blue print for racism, arbitrary discrimination and blind allegiance to destructive irrational causes.

They include doctrines of hate and have been doctrines of hate but that is clearly not all they are and to say so is reductive in the extreme. That's precisely what's offensive about saying this: religion is clearly unlike fascism and racism in that the latter too are more or less entirely about hatred and dehumanization, while that's only a use to which religion has been put.

>It's because I've read such books that I find them detestable and thoughtless and at this point utterly void of any value.

I don't agree with 'thoughtless'. Some of the people advancing these arguments have been enormously intelligent. And I think it's of tremendous importance to try and understand why they thought what they did. But both of those points really are not entirely central.

>Having racist elements in a book is one thing, writing a pro-racist book and trying to spread racism is another. Likewise for a pro-religious book. The author's character is irrelevant. The text is what matters.

The text is what matters yes, but unfortunately the logical conclusion that we have to draw from that idea is that a text can endorse repugnant doctrines and still be beautiful. Not our political beliefs or those advanced in the text, but the text itself is what matters.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:22:58 2012 No.2490765 >>2490746 Fascism clothed in fancy pants and a silk shirt doesn't make it any better, sorry, I'm not fooled so easily

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:23:58 2012 No.2490771 >>2490746 >a text can endorse repugnant doctrines and still be beautiful please give 3 examples

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:24:58 2012 No.2490775 >>2490746 >a text can endorse repugnant doctrines and still be beautiful. maybe some people have high standards than simple aesthetic beauty? maybe they want substance, and when that substance is a disease of the worst kind they try to avoid it

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:27:59 2012 No.2490788 File: 33 KB, 433x334, 1326419186024.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >this thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:27:59 2012 No.2490782 >>2490765 Of course not. Contra Keats, beauty is not truth and truth is not beauty. But beauty is still beauty even if it's incredibly untrue and incorrect.

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:27:59 2012 No.2490785

>>2490746
>fascism and racism in that the latter too are more or less entirely about hatred and dehumanization, while that's only a use to which religion has been put

No, fascism has a LOT more to it than hatred and dehumanization. Just because you're anxious to defend religion, that doesn't mean you get to distort and oversimplify.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:29:59 2012 No.2490793 >>2490788 This is why I find philosophy laughable. It's all a bunch of pretentious hipsters in a shouting match.

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:34:59 2012 No.2490806

>>2490771

If an author is passionate about something, and is able to make that passion into honest art, why does it matter what the subject is? Why is the hatred shown in a revenge tale any more beautiful than the tale of racial hatred? A reader's perception is everything. If someone is passionate about something, who are we to tell them that the object of their passion is wrong or ugly?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:36:58 2012 No.2490814 File: 5 KB, 397x357, 1326438925158.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2490806 >Why is the hatred shown in a revenge tale any more beautiful than the tale of child rape? We'll if you put it that way, I guess it's just apples and oranges

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:38:59 2012 No.2490820

>>2490806

The revenge tale has to be justifiable in some loose way...like in the count of monte cristo

If the revenge is disproportionate the tale will suffer.

Things like racism and fascism are inherently disproportionate and hard to justify and make beautiful

give me some examples where this occurs

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:40:58 2012 No.2490825 >>2490820 >Things like racism and fascism are inherently disproportionate and hard to justify and make beautiful huh? Love of your own is always beautiful and justified.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:43:58 2012 No.2490832 >>2490765 funny how the leftists who hate "fascism" and "racism" all want to be mass murdering tyrants.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:46:58 2012 No.2490836 >>2490825 >huh? Love of your own is always beautiful and justified. Yep, I love people with black hair, everyone else is disgusting and inferior and should live away from us black hairs. My opinion is beautiful and justified because of reasons.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:46:58 2012 No.2490838 >>2490836 are you a fucking idiot? Or just a typical liberal?

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:47:58 2012 No.2490841

>>2490820

For example, if a man's entire family were to be murdered by members of another race, he would likely project his grief and hatred across the entire race, especially if the murder occurred while the man was young. While his hatred is not justified, it is more understandable, and there is a kind of sympathy that one would be made to feel for a victim of such blind rage.

>>2490814

The only reason we consider child rape to be wrong is because we grew up learning that it is. For someone unconditioned, or for someone whose feelings defy their conditioning, it is not the same.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:48:58 2012 No.2490847 >>2490841 no god dammit defending the idea that things can be aesthetically beautiful and intellectually repugnant does not require defending child rape i don't endorse that and i don't want this to be associated with that, you're a sicko

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:48:58 2012 No.2490848 >>2490841 >While his hatred is not justified Why is it not justified? I think the hatred would more be directed to the leftist traitors who continually flood our countries/neighborhoods with shitskins while themselves living in all white subburbs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:49:58 2012 No.2490850 You are both idiots for derailing this thread about a very good book. Your argument is stupid and you should both feel bad.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:50:58 2012 No.2490851 >>2490850 there's like ten arguments going on here and they're all pretty stupid (including the one i was involved in, i'm not blameless here) bt how much is there to really be said about canticle for leibowitz

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:52:59 2012 No.2490854

>>2490841
Also: especially in the case of the USA, whites are attacked BECAUSE they hold these leftist "hurr we're all individuals" concepts. They are easy targets.

It makes you a traitor to try to deny a fellow white man's ability to defend himself/his property/his family/etc.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:52:59 2012 No.2490855 Can we at least agree that religion is ridiculous horseshit?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:52:59 2012 No.2490856 treason owns

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:53:59 2012 No.2490857

>>2490847

Defending it? Of course not. I find it disgusting, as most people do. You miss the point: I'm not defending aesthetic beauty, but the honesty of the emotions. If someone is sick, how could they control what they feel? The point is that people with a disgusting viewpoint can write lovingly and beautifully about disgusting things, because to them they are not disgusting.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:53:59 2012 No.2490858 >>2490855 mmmmm. no. it's incorrect and wrong but it's neither ridiculous nor horseshit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:54:58 2012 No.2490863 >>2490850 My apologies. I just ordered it, and am very excited to read it. Argument derailed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:54:58 2012 No.2490862 Judging by the comments in this thread this book bears some similarities to Dune: pro-religion and anti-science.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:54:58 2012 No.2490859 >>2490858 Do you have evidence disproving it? Are you seriously arguing against the secular benefits of christianity?

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:55:58 2012 No.2490864

>>2490841
>>2490841

>The only reason we consider child rape to be wrong is because we grew up learning that it is

Or because it simply inflicts unjustifiable and extreme suffering and torture onto a helpless victim..

>there is a kind of sympathy that one would be made to feel for a victim of such blind rage.

Again this isn't the issue. You can have retarded characters who make wrong decisions, and you can have a book that tries to argue that this is in fact the RIGHT decision and that it's good that he took revenge based on an illogical generalization....This is the wrong part, when the book tries to defend the idiotic character and argue that it is the right thing

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:55:58 2012 No.2490865 >>2490862 I don't think you should assume that the comments ITT have anything at all to do with the book in the OP I mean, straight-up nothing

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 21:56:58 2012 No.2490868 >>2490862 Not sure where you got that, sounds like you are a typical retarded anti-theist liberal. How do you expect science to be done when the whole world is a bunch of shitskin retarded hedonist degenerates?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:00:59 2012 No.2490874 >>2490868 We just need to make some ground rules and vigorously enforce them. Religion isn't necessary.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:03:58 2012 No.2490879 >>2490874 And why is religion unnecessary?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:04:58 2012 No.2490880 >>2490859 >Are you seriously arguing against the secular benefits of christianity? Like gay kids committing suicide? Thanks, Christianity!

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:05:58 2012 No.2490883

>>2490879
Explaining why religion is "unnecessary" seems a lot more difficult and abstract than explaining exactly why it is necessary. It seems probable that a religion is not completely vital to a civilization's wellbeing, but if you disagree, I'd like to hear your reasoning why.

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:06:58 2012 No.2490886

>>2490880
Why did their parents raise them to be faggots?
Why is bullying so common in these godless schools?

ammoral liberalism.
Also: faggots bullying straights is fairly common too.
There was a case in cali of a faggot who was encouraged by the principle to bully someone, and the kid being bullied got fed up and killed the fag.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:07:58 2012 No.2490888 >>2490883 How do you plan on doing all the things religion does without God?

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:07:58 2012 No.2490889

>>2490880
attributing that entirely to christianity is kind of questionable to me

it's not the fault of the religion alone, it's also that people are mean-spirited bigots. it's not like these people were loving and kind and then christianity came long and "welp, i guess we better dehumanize and bully these people, we got no choice because religion". people are complicated, and the world is a fucking complicated place.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:08:59 2012 No.2490891 You guys know what the root cause of liberalism is right? Christianity.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:08:59 2012 No.2490894 >>2490889 are you a retard? You are doing the identical thing in the name of atheism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:09:59 2012 No.2490898 >>2490888 Like what? I'm not trying to say religion has no value etc., but I want to know exactly what you think it does that is impossible to emulate in a secular society.

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:13:59 2012 No.2490906

>>2490898
creates morals, teaches lessons, teaches wisdom, the belief in a higher power helps in all sorts of mental problems, above all it gives some purpose to life beyond "have fun"

There must be a reason why god fearing men are universally healthier and better off than godless atheists.

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:13:59 2012 No.2490907

>>2490889
>it's not like these people were loving and kind and then christianity came long and "welp, i guess we better dehumanize and bully these people, we got no choice because religion".

Um, there's tons of people who would like to be nice to gays, but feel duty-bound to say gay sex is a horrible sin because of their religion. What world do you live in?

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:18:59 2012 No.2490919

>>2490906
As an agnostic/atheist who has lived secularly his entire life, I have what I consider to be an adequate moral compass compared to most other people.
All the lessons taught through parables/stories in the Bible/what have you can easily be taught through nonreligious means like fables and good parenting
I don't really think wisdom can be taught, it's just acquired through life and I think can be gained with or without religion.
I'd like to see a source claiming that believing in a god can cure mental problems, that seems pretty unlikely
And plenty of secular fools see a purpose in life beyon have fun, myself included.

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:21:58 2012 No.2490923

>>2490907
gay sex is horrible and disgusting.
Doesn't take being a christian to see that.

>>2490919
And how do you teach the importance of waiting till marriage for sex and other things like that?
You can't really explain the reasons to a child, they wouldn't understand or care.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:25:58 2012 No.2490932 >>2490923 >implying it's important to wait till marriage for sex

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:27:59 2012 No.2490936 >>2490932 It is for all sorts of mental health reasons and for having a successful marriage. Of course godless liberals want to have their daughters prostituting at a young age, because sex is grand huh?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:50:58 2012 No.2490985 >>2490936 Yes, all liberals want their daughters to become prostitutes. Are you purposely over exaggerating or do you actually believe this?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 22:56:58 2012 No.2490994 >>2490985 Which part is inaccurate?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 23:15:59 2012 No.2491011 >>2490936 >implying sex before marriage leads to mental health problems and prostitution >implying women's sexual decisions should be controlled by men

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 23:31:58 2012 No.2491043 Love the book, hate this thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 23:32:59 2012 No.2491048 >>2490528 Why? WHY?????

Anonymous Sat Mar 17 23:43:58 2012 No.2491074

>>2491011
>implying sex before marriage leads to mental health problems

It's an accepted fact, promiscuous women will never have a successful marriage, and hell look at how many "crazy women" there are these days, care to guess why?

>implying women's sexual decisions should be controlled by men

These women act like promiscuous whores because they want men to give them attention, how is that not being "controlled by men" ?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 17 23:47:58 2012 No.2491081 >>2491074 >It's an accepted fact, promiscuous women will never have a successful marriage, and hell look at how many "crazy women" there are these days, care to guess why? Niggers? Or maybe it's the Jews?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:16:59 2012 No.2491254 >>2491074 >These men will do anything to chase promiscuous whores because they want access to all their orifices; how is that not being "controlled by women" ?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:19:58 2012 No.2491263 File: 2 KB, 313x58, file01.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:27:58 2012 No.2491281 >>2491254 Other way around. The woman prostitutes herself around and then discovers she has aged and no man is willing to marry her or father children.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:27:58 2012 No.2491282 YEEEEAH ALL ARYAN WOMEN MUST BEAR THE CHILDREN OF THE STRONGEST OF GOD'S MOST BEAUTIFUL AND MOST PURE

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:29:58 2012 No.2491287 >>2491282 How can any race or civilization survive if the women are whores who don't have children? You can find plenty of articles on middle age women who were promiscuous and now regretting their life choices.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:32:59 2012 No.2491294 >>2491287 i want to ruffle your hair i'm picturing a 4' little person 8/10 on the scale of button cute

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:33:59 2012 No.2491297 >>2491294 6 foot blue eyed brown hair master race deal w/ it shitskin.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:34:58 2012 No.2491301 lmao 6 feet around probably

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:35:58 2012 No.2491305 >>2491297 6 FEET AIN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE, BUD. THE STANDARD HAS BEEN RAISED. 6'3" OR HIGHER.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:42:58 2012 No.2491318 >>2491297 5'8 brown eyed black haired shitbaby of an african shit skin and a nordic... dry ice bleached shitskin will you at least bow your head low enough for me to ruffle?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:44:58 2012 No.2491323 >>2491305 w/e

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:49:58 2012 No.2491335 >>2491318 what are you talking about?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:54:59 2012 No.2491352 File: 8 KB, 792x176, done.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sun Mar 18 01:55:59 2012 No.2491358

>>2491335
day, that's why I'm so away
Mentally mind blown now gon & blow away, yea, ya'll niggas is super fake, I put you niggas on mute then I mutilate
Imac like the computer say, my hoes coperate, I mean cooperate
I don't know how to say, oh but I gotta say, I just 4-5 away till ain't no one alive to say
That I 4-5'd away, then I drive away, paper chasin' money runnin' like andale
Better find a way, better not be in our way, I'll take you farther than Zimbabwe

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/lit/ - Literature