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/lit/ - Literature

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2484635 No.2484635 [Reply] [Original]

Ever since I switched from a /lit/ major to economics I feel like what I'm learning is not only practical and interesting, but also helps me understand the world I live in and how things work.

ITT: we talk about letting go of childish hobbies and learning useful and relevant things.

>> No.2484638

Appreciating, generating and advancing art are part of the world and how it works

>> No.2484640

>>2484638
ADVANCING ART

OH GOD

WHAT BENEFIT TO THE WORLD IS THE 'APPRECIATING, GENERATING AND ADVANCING' OF ART?

>> No.2484641

>not doing engineering/maths/lit double degree triple major.

>> No.2484642

>>2484640

>WHAT BENEFIT TO THE WORLD IS THE 'APPRECIATING, GENERATING AND ADVANCING' OF ART?

What benefit to the world is economics? Look at the state the world is in, you lackwit.

>> No.2484643

who cares about that shit, /lit/ is a selfish major and i'm ok with that

>> No.2484649
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2484649

>>2484635
>Economics
Should have done a worthwhile major.

Like sociology and social policy.

>> No.2484654

>>2484643

It'll feel really selfish when you ask, "Tall or Grande?"

>> No.2484655
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2484655

>>2484649

>> No.2484659

>>2484654
sadness of major, in ascending order:

>serious humanities students who know they will be broke and take it in stride
>pretentious humanities students who think their BA in poli.sci. or philosophy makes them an intellectual
>engineers and business majors who mock those with poorer job prospects than themselves because they will be stylin' with 120k incomes and soulcrushing boring jobs in the upper middle class for the rest of their lives

>> No.2484664

>>2484659

> Implying engineering is boring our soulless.

>> No.2484667

>not being a Buddhist

>> No.2484669

>>2484642
AMERICA DOES NOT EQUATE TO THE WORLD

AUSTRALIA'S DOING FINE

>> No.2484673

>>2484669
To be fair mainland Europe has pretty much picked up too. Even with having to fork out the money to Greece.

>mfw I'm British and we're still in a shitty state of affairs because we're being run by a Tory who thinks he's Margaret Thatcher reborn and our Chancellor is a HISTORY MAJOR... WHO GOT A FUCKING SECOND.

>> No.2484677

OP, are you being taught traditional economics, or are you being taught according to the heterodox school?

>> No.2484683

In economics, beyond supply and demand, everything is more applicable to another field, usually mathematics or psychology. Game theory, statistics, individual and group behaviour, etc.

Macroeconomics has a poor track record, and microeconomics is game theory.

>> No.2484697

>takes econ 101
>thinks that's how the world works

>> No.2484699

engineering is substantial and offers creative paths. it's not soulcrushing like that poster said out of angst that maths is hard

>> No.2484799

>>2484659

What makes for an intellectual? Professors conducting research in the areas you mentioned obviously do have 'majors' in those subjects, but are they not intellectual?

>> No.2484816

Part of being an intellectual is realizing that all of these disciplines makeup a spectrum of human knowledge and that we need all elements of that spectrum. Inasmuch as there is a desirable balance in the human condition, the value of all academic disciplines must be weighted equally.

>> No.2484820

Good for you OP.

The greatest artists and writers come from backgrounds having to do with something other than art. Economists, doctors, lawyers, teachers, soldiers etc all have a specialized understanding of the world that adds to the narrative. Their writings usually have a point, and they don't do things simply for "art's sake".

Guys like Da Vinci were cutting up bodies, learning architecture, studying technology etc. Yes they learned how to paint and sculpt, but they added their understanding of the world to it.

It often makes me cringe when someone says that his dream is to become an artist. Really? What do you have to say about the world? What insight can you give? Even if that person is a genius, his writing would most likely end up superficial because he hasn't put the work in to understanding how the world works.

Even worse are self-proclaimed artists who go as far as to separarate craft from their work completely. The cliche goes that anybody could throw shit to paper and call it art. There's a seed of truth there. Art without craft is noise. Picasso was a man of craft just as much as he was an artist. Just like Michelangelo and Rodin. Putting a square blank canvas on a wall is noise in comparison.

So please, when thinking about becoming an author, learn shit about the world so you don't end up as white noise. Become a craftsman first, then turn your technical understanding and mastery into expression.

>> No.2484830

>implying OP voluntarily switched to econ and wasn't booted from literature for being deficient

>> No.2484833

>Economics
>Not a bigger retard major than English or Philosophy and such

/r/ing that statistic of the average IQ's of university students by major.

>> No.2484835

>>2484830
>implying that being deficient in literature is even possible, or would be objectively detectible if it was.

>> No.2484840

>>2484820

'Craftsmanship' in your post seems to be the equivalent of being any of the following: 'Economists, doctors, lawyers, teachers, soldiers etc', which in term you say equals 'to learn things about the world'.

So your point would be that people with these professions in the weakest sense at least has more to say about the world than somebody lacking that 'professional experience'.

The obvious objection is that there are many experiences in life that in no way relates to this type of 'professional experience', for which reason they do not require that one has any of the said 'professional experiences'. It is therefore the case that you are only right insofar as what you consider to be worthwhile in life is the perspective from one of those professions that you mentioned, which is really quite biased and narrow-minded. But then again, that does align perfectly with the universal value you subscribe to the aforementioned professions, so your bias appears to have its source in your presupposition in this case.

All in all an impoverished view.

>> No.2484858

>>2484840

It's not about professions. It's about putting work in, getting more insight into the world. Of course there can be authors who really systemically try to understand the world despite having any formal education other than "arts".

Unfortunately for the vast majority of artists this isn't true. They end up writing about phenomena superficially, primarily describing themselves rather than the phenomena. Which I suppose is fine, except for the me-centrism and the amount of artists who do that.

It's often clear that people who write about the human condition - or claim to - haven't the slightest clue how shit operates. It's a bit like that Kony-meme. If all people do is describe feelings and try to manipulate other people's feelings, you end up having a distorted and misleading view of the world. Put work in, try to make the world a better place by understanding it.

>> No.2484867

>>2484820
Thank you kind sir for this post, without it I may have stumbled into quite the blind pit.

>> No.2484876

>Not doing the same degree as I am
>2012

>> No.2484883

>>2484858

So then your thesis is actually quite weak and in no way related specifically to the mentioned professions, for which reason you shouldn't really oppose anybody who 'puts work in', which is far less helpful but much more cogent; at least that is so in my view.

>> No.2484887

One or two science / engineering majors, and then a literature one is the way to go, faggots.

>> No.2484898

Honestly, there's more nobility in being a janitor than being a literature major. Lit majors are the least productive and simultaneously most self-entitled hipster trash that there is. They think that simply because academia allowed them to pursue their degree that it is inherently as noble and productive as anything anybody else with a degree does (or maybe even moreso, after all science gave us the atomic bomb and guns and gave capitalism tools to oppress the proletariat, right?).

Really, the vast majority of these people I've encountered are glorified bloggers who think that reading Dostoevsky makes them intellectuals.

>> No.2484900

>>2484820
I love how this whole post seems to be based on the notion that OP wanted to become a writer at some point. Which was never stated at any point.

You seem a bit misguided, tbh. Art is useless when it has nothing to say and artists usually have gained life experience other than jerking off in a corner of a classroom. That's why they don't teach the creation of art in the humanities either, they teach ABOUT art, it's importance, it's meaning and relevance, which requires just as much brains and hard work as most other majors, and working in a field dealing with the literature, creativity, writing, communication or language of any sorts will give you just as much life experience as any carpenter or electrician.

Anyway, people who study to become artists are gullible idiots, but that doesn't mean the humanities should be disregarded.

>> No.2484901

>>2484667
>implying Im not wanting to live in a zen temple for longer than I can remember

also
>economics major
>even less important and less jobs than a lit major

>> No.2484902

>>2484635
> we talk about letting go of childish hobbies
> and learning useful and relevant things
so that we can afford childish hobbies.

>> No.2484907

>>2484898

You still don't understand that the value of your degree is relative to the quality of your education, which is relative to the institution you study at. It is therefore not the case that 'Lit majors' are generally useless.

>> No.2484912

>>2484898
I know how you feel. There's this guy on 4chan who thinks being a janitor makes him an intellectual.

>> No.2484924

>>2484912
You know what my favorite part of the /lit/ community is? How they're so damned defensive of the intellectual value of their pastime, but the moment it's challenged they immediately resort to middle school level insults.

>> No.2484952

Didn't Adam Smith think of himself as primarily a philosopher? Have fun with your made up science OP.

>> No.2484955

I like literature and also film because I don't understand any sort of logical system, especially abstract ones like mathematics but also extending to languages, and because I am hopelessly bad at communicating with people IRL. Literary expression gives me the high ground in communication, and if I am successful a privileged position to communicate, that I would have been otherwise denied.

>> No.2484956

>>2484952
I don't think anyone would ever claim that. I've heard plenty of people say philosophy majors are more desireable than economics majors simply because they basicly study the same material, yet the philosophers usually approach them more critically.

>> No.2484962

>>2484956
I don't think anyone would claim that economics aren't grounded in philosophy*

Disregard that I'm an idiot who doesn't proof-read his posts.

>> No.2484968

0/10.

>> No.2484969

>>2484956
I don't think anyone would take a philosophy major seriously.

>> No.2484975

>>2484969

Your justification being?

>> No.2484978

>>2484969
If you live in a vulgar, businesslike environment full of non-thought and "can do" mentality, then no. But among intellectuals, philosophers are well regarded, since philosophy is the source of all humanistic thought.

>> No.2484990

>>2484978
>If you live in a vulgar, businesslike environment full of non-thought and "can do" mentality, then no. But among intellectuals, philosophers are well regarded, since philosophy is the source of all humanistic thought.
Without astrology we wouldn't have astronomy, either. I suppose that means we're obligated to treat astrology with respect and gravity as well?

>> No.2484995

>>2484990

If you would equivocate the influence that astrology has had over astronomy with the influence that philosophy has had, and still does have, over the world you're really ignorant about philosophy.

>> No.2485003

>>2484635
I would enjoy being poor and with a good knowledge of a subject I care about, than rich and with a good knowledge of a subject I don't. Taking english at uni is more practical and interesting to me than taking economics would be. Learn to subjectivity.

>> No.2485011

>>2484635

Good choice OP
I wish I went into Econ earlier.

>> No.2485016

>>2484978
Oh look, a butthurt philosophy major.

No one thinks you are a smart or intellectual person.

You're just some lazy faggot that wants to feel smart.

Go back to that physics or CS/math major and maybe people will actually respect you.

>> No.2485017

>>2485011

Judging by the blatant lack of followup-responses to many of the retarded propositions in this thread, it is evident that you're just samefagging your thread for the sake of trolling people.

All it goes to show is that you can't argue your desired point.

>> No.2485020

>>2485016
.
So much samefagging.

>> No.2485024

>>2485003

Since you are only learning for fun, th English you will learn in college is trivial in the long run.

Studying a subject like Literature is a life-long task; 4 years of college are barely anything, you just scratch the surface.

In the end all the teacher does is provide a few lectures and tell you to read on your own. You could find plenty of better lectures from MIT or Stanford online. Sit, watch, learn, then grab the books and read.

I don't see the point of actually getting a full degree in English if you aren't gonna use it for anything; it would be better to just audit courses for free, and maybe take a couple courses a year that interest you...But doing a full degree with electives is definitely a waste of time and money.

With a subject like Econ you have to learn a lot of different skills from calculus to statistics to finance. You also need computer programs to model econometric analysis on and those can be challenging to learn on your own.
Econ is actually useful in terms of getting a Job, employers look at it as a legit credential...so not only are you learning useful and complicated material but the credential itself is valuable. So there are arguments to getting an Econ degree, or anything scientific, mathematical, and lucrative...

English and most of the artsy humanities are really best studied on your own, as a life-long hobby...
Not to mention College curriculum in humanities is terrible and not challenging at all, even upper-year courses are a joke--Legit majors take humanities as GPA boosters....

>> No.2485028

>>2485024
English isn't useless though, particularly in the UK - from what I've seen it's different in America. Many jobs just require "a degree", so why not make it a degree I care about?

>> No.2485030

>>2485017

Not a samefag at all just a fellow Econ major master race.

refer to my other post >>2485024

>> No.2485039

>>2485024

Counterexample present in, as has been mentioned, the UK, where the education isn't even nearly as expensive. Moreover, the system does not suffer from degree inflation there, so you do not get the cynical generalization between among degrees. Furthermore, the present point is still >>2484907 .

>> No.2485041

>>2485028

That's fine if you don't know what you want to do and don't care about your career, and are only shooting for the bare minimum...those jobs are random and typically unrelated to anything you learned in school, so what would be the point of doing English and then working in some field you might hate but simply requires "any degree will do" ??

Sounds like a bad plan to me.
You could probably have made more money had you not gone to college, worked for 4 years, saved money, gotten some sort of designation or certification...etc

If you have no goal for a specific career goal, don't go to college, there are much better opportunities out there and you save a lot of money by not getting loans and paying tuition on terrible courses

>> No.2485047

>>2485041

You're making claims about a system you don't know anything about. It isn't the case that those jobs are 'random' or even bad. Employers are looking for intelligent people that they can further educate to fit into their system; it is hardly ever the case that one, fresh out of university, is ready to take on specific jobs.

>> No.2485048

>>2484907
>It is therefore not the case that 'Lit majors' are generally useless.

Generally they are even less than useless.
What jobs require Lit as a major, pay well, and are productive in society?

Even jobs you assume would require an English degree, don't. Being an Editor or copywriter don't require any such degree....Being a writer doesn't, being a journalist doesn't...

Whatever benefits the degree are also available from literally any university degree...like someone else said, some jobs just require a "degree in anything"...


The idea that you should do it because you like it, is fine, but also mistaken, since if you like the subject you should just learn it on your own, its one of the easiest subjects to self-study and in fact most of your life will be a self-study of it....so 4 years is a drop in the bucket, and most if not all Literature programs are terrible, unchallenging, and simply used by other departments as GPA boosters

>> No.2485054

>>2485047

>it is hardly ever the case that one, fresh out of university, is ready to take on specific jobs.

unless you study something useful like
chemistry,
math,
medicine
law
finance
economics
physics
engineering
computer science

and the majority of useful Majors at university

your statement is true for Arts and Humanities majors, definitely they are not ready for any specific job once they are done their degree...and probably for a long long time after

and in this Economy, UK's jobless rate is pretty high...good thing you are getting a useless degree

>> No.2485060

>>2485048

But your presupposition that one is only really eligible for a job when it 'requires' that one has a specific degree is false. Few degrees are made to be this way, because high amounts of specialization loses out in terms of flexibility. It is thus the case that such a degree is actually far more limiting in terms of what you can actually use it for, as opposed to degree in literature.

>> No.2485070

>>2485054

Depending on which job you're talking about, none of the mentioned degrees per default allows one to take up a job specifically related to that field fresh out of university. Conversely, it is nearly always the case that some further education is needed.

I further wasn't making any claims about arts degrees because my point was that they can go straight into that further education as well and end up working right next to your glorious 'Econ' degrees.

>> No.2485072

>>2485060
>It is thus the case that such a degree is actually far more limiting in terms of what you can actually use it for,
>high amounts of specialization loses out in terms of flexibility

An english degree is specialized in something, but that something is generally useless. The english degree will generally only have access to jobs that require "any degree at all"

A math degree is specialized in something useful.
It will have all the opportunities the english degree has [jobs that require any degree] + jobs specific to its field [math jobs] + jobs tangentially related to its field [accounting, finance, computer science, data analysis, etc].

English has no "tangential" opportunities or far less than any real major...
A computer science major can work in all sorts of "real jobs" that are only partially related to his major...

your logic is broken but you're probably just trying to play devil's advocate.

Over specialization only really occurs at the Phd level, and at that point if you have a real Phd in a science or math, you're doing fine.

>> No.2485075

>>2485070
>, none of the mentioned degrees per default allows one to take up a job specifically related to that field fresh out of university.

this is blatantly wrong, do a job search for comp science majors and engineers, or pharmacy majors

shit ton of jobs specifically aimed at these graduates with great starting salaries

pharmacists, just with a degree, 0 experience, here in canada get offered like 70k-80k starting, and are often hired just before finishing their degree

>> No.2485083

>>2485072

It is still the case that arts degrees are recruited to undergo education to fit various positions that may involve things that they have never done before. The point is in this case that prestigious universities boast intelligent and capable students that are actually able to make up for whatever knowledge that they need in order to do what they want, and their degree provides them with that opportunity and is therefore by no means offering of less 'tangential' opportunities than any other degree.

The fault you're subscribing to arts degrees does not lie with the degree itself but with the institution at which they study.

>> No.2485084

>>2485041
>You could probably have made more money had you not gone to college, worked for 4 years, saved money, gotten some sort of designation or certification...etc
1) I don't care about money all that much, get that into your head
2) I do care about learning about english. It is what I want to do.

Call me an idealist, but I would much rather have little money and a great knowledge of english (and to a lesser extent, history and philosophy, but they can be learned more easily from books) and live in a shitty terraced council house working nights in a fuel station or something (not that that's going to happen) than be a rich fuck that's spent all his life being a cog in the machine doing something I don't particularly care for. Plus if I do end up as a council-housed failure I won'y have to repay my uni loans, so that's alright too.

>> No.2485087

>>2485075

That's a cute quote out of context, let's have the whole thing shall we?

>Depending on which job you're talking about, none of the mentioned degrees per default allows one to take up a job specifically related to that field fresh out of university.

What this statement tells you, as you failed to see, is that there are jobs within all of these fields that no such graduate could immediately take on. No more or less than that. You must be unhappy.

>> No.2485091

This video should be posted on every thread like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDEZ2h41t0I

>> No.2485092

>>2485087
>statement said; is that there are jobs within all of these fields that no such graduate could immediately take on

That is a non-statement. I didn't think you were actually saying something so obvious and pointless....

No one was arguing that having a 4year science degree qualifies you to do Phd level work or any job imaginable in your science field. Obviously higher level jobs need more education or experience...

again, you made a pointless non-statement, congrats

>> No.2485096

>>2485084

The "english" knowledge that college confers to you in 4 years is trivial in the grand scheme of your life and your hobby of english.

better to audit courses you like, and do a couple that you love...doing a degree is still useless, because you have to do a bunch of non-related electives

>> No.2485100

Getting a degree is one of the most wasteful things you can do.

>> No.2485107

>>2485100

>Getting a non-science non-math non-engineering degree is one of the most wasteful things you can do.

fixd, and obviously true

>> No.2485108

>>2485092

It appears to you as a non-statement because you're not paying attention to my argument. What I sought to do was to question the proposition that a particular field carries inherent value because it is 'required' for certain jobs, which is not the case. The case is that certain further education that carries no specific relation to university degrees is required for specific jobs.

>> No.2485130

>>2485108

>I sought to do was to question the proposition that a particular field carries inherent value, because it is 'required' for certain jobs,

And then you said that some jobs require more than a 4 year education, as if this contradicts the idea that some jobs do require a specific 4 year degree...

You realize both can be true?
there are degrees that give one specific access to great jobs just by virtue of having the 4 year degree (i.e pharmacists, engineers, comp sci, etc)...

Of course there are higher level jobs in those fields that require Phds or 10years experience...

You realize these aren't mutually exclusive? No you don't because you're an english major and can't argue or think critically

>> No.2485139

>>2485108

so because some jobs require more than just my physics degree, therefore there are no physics jobs that specifically require my degree

>lmfao

>> No.2485143

I don't even fucking know why I still come here. I'm like a drunk who can't get drunk anymore. I hate this place. I am an English major, and I am not pretentious. I like what I do. I don't try
to hold it over anybody's head or trash other majors in defense of mine. When I see threads of this, it makes me feel awful, like I'm doing something wrong with my life. I wish I was more
thick skinned and confident in my decision, but I'm not. Fuck you guys. Focus on your own lives. Why are you so intent on disparaging us humanities students? What's wrong with
you?

>> No.2485146

>>2485143
this is a good post imo and should make all of us unironically reevaluate our attitudes towards literature and posting

'be excellent to each other' - keanu reeves

>> No.2485147

>>2485143
>>2485142

>> No.2485148

>>2485143
>english major
>I don't try to hold it over anybody's head or trash other majors in defense of mine.

what majors could you hold an english major over?
feminist studies?
music?
I don't think you have many options in theory...

>> No.2485164

>>2485148
How are Music and English majors, two of the oldest and most expansive fields of collegiate study, in any way comparable to "feminist studies"?

At this point I almost feel the need to quote that guy from Schindler's List.

>> No.2485166

>>2485148
if you are very rich and socially connected i'd imagine it is privileged over many vocational degrees.

>he has to go to school to find job
would be the standard response

>> No.2485169

>>2484635

tbh, studying things like English Lit. tends to be fairly inimical to enjoying them.

>> No.2485173

>>2485130


>And then you said that some jobs require more than a 4 year education, as if this contradicts the idea that some jobs do require a specific 4 year degree...

It seems as if you will have to produce examples of instances where one gets a job solely due to having one specific degree that is fresh from university. Still, there is no point to you doing this, because this inquiry of yours is merely an ad-hoc argument that is irrelevant to my actual point, which is that this requirement carries no inherent value. The same kind of requirement may be find in nearly all kinds of manual labour, but that does not make manual labour good or otherwise desirable.

Because you admit that there can be value in degrees that are not specific with regards to their studies, you subject yourself to completely losing this argument. That is because my original point was exactly that there is value to competence that is not specific, with respect to the quality of the education offered. Good education is always useful regardless of what kind of subject it works with.

>> No.2485175

This is a long perpetuated troll. I don't know why it gets 100 responses every time it's posted.

>> No.2485178

>>2485175
because everyone on /lit/ is in college and needs to justify their own degree, whether to defend themselves because of insecurity or out of intellectual arrogance

collegethreads are the worst threads. always.

>> No.2485181

>>2485175

Because arguing for the sake of arguing is enjoyable.

>> No.2485187

/tg/ has a sticky that says, among other things "1. BE EXCELLENT TO EACH OTHER. 2. PARTY ON, DUDES. (AND DUDETTES)"
/tg/ is probably the nicest board on this site
/lit/'s sticky is great, but I wish someone could add those two lines. Threads like this are terrible, it's just bullshit dick-waving and one-upmanship. Look at OP, for example: he's deriding others for being childish, and in doing so is revealing how immature he really is. Grow up, please. For all our sakes, or we'll just be stuck bickering over bullshit for eternity.

>> No.2485196

>>2484924
I don't get you. You call lit majors intellectual trash, then someone insults the idea of the "nobility" janitors and you call that unfair and childish.

>> No.2485199

>>2485187
another eminently sane and reasonable point. good take man but you should probably be saging.

>> No.2485204

>>2485091
>Invokes trickle down economics to justify the public paying for the livelihood of people who study literature.
Yeah, nah, he's a cunt.

>> No.2485208

>>2485199
oops.
I meant to...

>> No.2485214

>>2485204

But that's not what he does.

>> No.2485225

>>2485196
>I don't get you. You call lit majors intellectual trash, then someone insults the idea of the "nobility" janitors and you call that unfair and childish.
They didn't insult the idea of the nobility of janitors, they thought they were taking a pot shot at me,as if my saying I thought they were more valuable than literature majors meant I must be one. He also presumed I considered myself to be an intellectual, which I don't.

>> No.2485229

The hilarious moment when even the cruise or events management students (yes my uni does that :| ) laugh at the uselessness of English/ lit degrees.

>> No.2485240

>>2485229
because usefulness means "monetary or material recompense" in contemporary discourse, this is nothing new here. if someone had something interesting to say about this fact, these threads might actually be good.

>> No.2485242

>>2485214
>But someone with a degree in Norse literature is so valuable to the world that the public should be financing their education!
He pretty much says that verbatim. What he doesn't understand, and what a lot of lit and art majors don't understand is that the reason engineering and science degrees make money is because society greatly prospers from the skills of people who understand science and engineering. There is very little benefit to be had from people who read Norse literature for a living.

I like how they like to act like they're so above materialism for studying what they're studying, when they're really just saying that they're unproductive and proud of it.

>> No.2485260

Well time for me to post in this thread...

So here is a story about myself. I started an IT major years ago, with a focus on software developement. But as time progressed, I realized, that most of software developement is boring as hell. I am not saying that all of IT is boring, but the stuff I majored in was boring as hell. So I kinda turned back to writing and literature and enjoyed this greatly.

A year ago, I dropped out of university. Or lets say, that I just took a break from my IT stuff, since right now, I just can't focus on this stuff anymore. I might return to the university and even finish my IT major if I can do this in a resonable ammount of time. If I can't finish my IT major, I might turn to something that is more interesting to me, something related to literature or writing. Maybe going for journalism. But for now, I am just gonna take my time and work in a normal job, to 'find my place' if you can call it that.

On topic. Why does everyone think, that doing a literature major is useless, or shouldn't be done? I mean sure, as a math major or an engineering major, you might be able to earn more money. But why should someone do something they don't like over something they love only for the sake of money?
It is basically the same with me. I went for IT, cause back than I thought it was interesting, but found out that is not what I want to do. Instead I enjoy literature and writing and probably gonna major in this fields. And nope, I don't think that makes me an intellectual or anything. Shit, there are probably tons of people in engineering or math who are more intelligent than me. I just want to do what I love.

>> No.2485263

>>2485242

It isn't the case that they are unproductive, it is merely the case that you refuse to see anything good about what they do. You consider only a certain type of academia to be useful, but does that mean that you would like us to stop everything that is related to that which you deem to be a leak in this sense?

Think carefully about that question from you pedestal of conceit.

>> No.2485264

>>2485242
social life is not entirely about making profits, although the profit incentive structure drives the movement of the system away from one of education to one of training. this is an important distinction that you may appreciate had you been more educated. alas

>> No.2485267

would you rather live amongst sciducks whose idea of culture is a day at /v/, or cultured people. it is not a hard choice.

>> No.2485268

>>2485260
>Why does everyone think, that doing a literature major is useless, or shouldn't be done?

Because you can't make money for it and that's the central standard by which the use or uselessness of anything is judged

obviously

>> No.2485278

>>2485263
>It isn't the case that they are unproductive, it is merely the case that you refuse to see anything good about what they do. You consider only a certain type of academia to be useful, but does that mean that you would like us to stop everything that is related to that which you deem to be a leak in this sense?
I have no objection to people studying literature, I simply don't consider it an academic subject, anymore than I consider comic books or video games to be academic subjects. If people are passionate about a medium, they will pursue the works of that medium on their own.

>> No.2485283

>>2485278
>probably oldest function of academia outside of theology
>not academia

>> No.2485285

>>2485268
>Because you can't make money for it and that's the central standard by which the use or uselessness of anything is judged
It's like you've never read a single argument against your position ever.

>> No.2485289

>>2485285
i'm not even sure what position you're attributing to me so i really don't know what to say here

>> No.2485290

>>2485283
>Astrology is older than astronomy
>Not academia

>Alchemy is older than chemistry
>Not academia

>> No.2485295

>>2485289
The reason knowledge of literature doesn't make money is because it does nothing to make the world a better place for anyone but you. Not because LOL MATERIALISM.

>> No.2485299

>>2485290
well mister, did you know that chemistry itself has discarded various versions of past theories but the study itself continues.

>> No.2485300

>>2485295
must not be a good econ student to understand the public goods nature of culture.

>> No.2485301

>>2485278

Your reasoning is faulty because the study of literature is not about writing books, but rather to study them. Insofar as academia is about the study of things, literature is very much academic. It is therefore also clearly distinct from video games and comic books, because that has no relevance at all in this case.

>> No.2485302

Useful careers with a lit degree:
Teachers
Legislators
Lawyers
Translators
Technical Writers
Businessmen/women (and advertising)
Journalists

All of these are either useful to others or profitable for oneself.

>> No.2485305

>>2485295
well, i disagree with that argument, but more to the point, that may be true but i don't think its the reason most people shit on the study of literature.

>> No.2485306

>>2485290

The history of chemistry and astronomy.

Academia.

>> No.2485307

>>2485302

Hello there, thanks for posting this.

What are the steps if you go for a carrier in journalism or a translator?

>>2485260 here

>> No.2485311

>>2485300
Art is only valuable to people who care about it. In that way, it's not much different from religion. And regardless, authors contribute to literary culture, people with degrees in literature contribute jack shit.

>> No.2485312

>>2485307

I think the first step is learning how to spell "career."

>> No.2485314

>>2485311
okay, it is not valuable to you. but to a lot of people it is valuable just by being there.

>> No.2485316

>>2485312

Sorry for that my friend, I am not a native English speaker and I had a pretty hard day, so please ingore that spelling mistake.

>> No.2485317
File: 196 KB, 1024x768, carrier.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2485317

>>2485307

>Carrier in journalism.

>> No.2485319

ban op
delete thread
delete /lit/
delete 4chan
liquidate all economists

>> No.2485321

History major here.

I'm considering doing a double major in history and one other subject. I can't decide between English literature, economics, political science, philosophy, or journalism.

By the way, is there a future for journalists in the United States? With the slow decline of newspapers and news magazines and even cable news networks, and the massive explosion of blogs that cover news and politics, will it be possible to make a living as a journalist in the next 20-30 years?

>> No.2485322

>>2485311

You're so ignorant it's probably impossible for you to not be trolling.

It is probably the intention of nearly all students of literature to in the future contribute to that which you just described as being a contribution to society, which makes your claim right then and there completely contradictory.

What's more is 'Art is only valuable to people who care about it'. Again, are you insinuating that we should abandon the study of all things related to the arts? Are you saying that you in no way care for the arts? Do you not listen to music? Do you not write right at this moment?

>> No.2485323

>>2485314
When did I say I don't value art? I love art. I hate the culture that surrounds art. I hate the self-worshipping pieces of shit who think that reading Borges and Nabakov is somehow productive and a contribution to society. Nabakov was a brilliant writer, but If you enjoy reading him, that makes you about as brilliant as someone who can tie their shoes.

>> No.2485326

"Specialization is for insects."
-Robert Heinlein


Thread closed.

>> No.2485330

>>2485323
without all the lit majors you will see a general decline in culture in society, a devastating loss long term

>> No.2485331

>>2485323

A person who has read something contributes in such a way that he is able to spread that knowledge and hopefully inspire some further writing, if it is the case that he will not do so himself.

>> No.2485333

OP's probably trolling, but students who major in the sciences probably should think twice about trashing (and dissuading) English majors. Overhead for English classes is very low, but the students pay the same tuition as everyone else. In other words, English majors are subsidizing your education.

>> No.2485334

>>2485333

That is, they help pay for lab equipment, etc.

>> No.2485337

>>2485330
>without all the priests you will see a general decline in culture in society, a devastating loss long term

>>2485331
That's what libraries are for. If you want to read good books, you can do it for free and no one is stopping you.

>> No.2485342

>>2485337
didn't you say you liked artistic culture. i presume you do not like organized religion so your analogy fails pretty much. silly sciduck

>> No.2485343

it's telling that people who make "studying literature isn't useful you can learn everything from a library" threads always use anime as the op image

>> No.2485344

>>2485333
English majors (and all the people who go to college to get useless degrees) contribute to degree inflation as well, so you're not as valuable as you seem to think.

>> No.2485346

i mean okay i sympathize with the anticlergical sentiment directed at the academic study of literature but that particular issue is rather different from the general theme of this thread.

>> No.2485347

>>2485337

You're seriously underestimating literature if you think that the entire contents of a book can all be absorbed on one's own and without any kind of help.

>> No.2485348

>>2485326
Squats and oats, and oats and squats

>> No.2485351
File: 42 KB, 640x489, Georges Perec.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2485351

>>2485342
I like morals, which religion claims to have the final word on. Priests argue that without their job people would be running wild raping and murdering in the streets, which is complete horseshit. Much in the same way, I like art and culture, and people who major in literature claim that without them society would have nothing beyond Jersey Shore and Twilight, which is similarly complete horseshit.

>>2485343
Yeah, because namedropping high art is so intellectual, right?

>> No.2485359

>>2485351

i'm not saying anything about intellect i'm saying op probably has bad boring taste (like most people who are against studying literature)

>> No.2485361

>>2485351
well you'd be not surprised to learn that i was in fact an econ major in college. still, the organic formation of an intellectual culture depends on respect for lit majors. the idea that you should respect someone for choosing to study something with their life is not a complicated one.

>> No.2485367

>>2485351

I agree with your points about religion and the Jersey Shore stuff. Even without people who major in literature, there are still people who studied other stuff and can produce great works of art / culture.

But seriously, let people who want to study literature study it. Sure they might not earn as much as an engineer and they might not contribute to the technological progress, but I still think we need this people. Seriously, there are a lot of great books, that helped people to think about life. That gave people insight on something and made them decide certain things. You can't deny this.

Also as interesting as technology and such is, don't you enjoy works of great art too?

>> No.2485368
File: 153 KB, 595x770, jg_ballard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2485368

>>2485359
I'm not the OP, but I'm arguing against literature as academia. I think it's sad that I have to put pictures of prestigious people into my posts for you to even consider the arguments that are the substance of them, on a board about the written word for Christ's sake!

>> No.2485369

.>>2485330
We don't need lit majors, we need more people reading literature.

>> No.2485370

>>2485369
whatever. it's nice to have.

>> No.2485390
File: 48 KB, 459x436, anna 6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2485390

>>2485330

This is simply untrue.

And this is coming from someone who loves lit majors.

Bless their little hearts.

>> No.2485395

>>2484635
You better be taking austrian economics

the rest of economics is shit tier garbage.

>> No.2485397

>>2485390
would you like to find out?

>> No.2485399

you people are too mean.

>> No.2485400

>>2485330
LOL?
These lit majors produce garbage like postmodernism, THAT'S THE decline in culture!

>> No.2485404

>>2485400
okay, that's a unique and coincidental feature of the recent past. but i like pomo hipsters. they are more open to experimentation and are cute and cuddly

>> No.2485408

>>2485368
Link to some of his arguments? I'm interested.

>> No.2485417

>>2485408
I'm making my own arguments. I posted a picture of J.G. Ballard because I was responding to a poster who said that all the people making the same argument I am must be weeaboos who like anime.

J.G. Ballard himself is irrelevant to my post, and that was my point.

>> No.2485418

>>2485368
It is an imageboard though.

>> No.2485426

Literature is not practical and interesting, and neither helps you to understand the world you live in?

Stop reading garbage, moron.

>> No.2485452

>>2485426
Fiction is fiction is fiction is fiction.

Read a textbook, dipshit.

>> No.2485476

You know that economics is just a Western, slightly more sophisticated version of witch doctoring, right?

You guys just do really elaborate rain dances, and then publish papers when it rains.

>> No.2485480

>>2485476
>You know that economics is just a Western, slightly more sophisticated version of witch doctoring, right?
You just described pretty much the entirety of the social sciences.

>> No.2485487

>>2485480

I'm okay with that.

>> No.2485497

>>2485452

thinking all fiction is interchangeable is another common symptom of having really, really bad taste

you should get yourself checked out

>> No.2485509
File: 33 KB, 300x450, imgumberto eco4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2485509

>>2485497
Oh sorry. Fiction is fiction is fiction is fiction.

Read a textbook, dipshit.

>> No.2485519

>>2485509

There is no material difference between fiction and a textbook.

>> No.2485529

When I was applying for college I thought to follow my natural inclinations and pick a philosophy major, but I reasoned that since I enjoy acquiring knowledge I could just read the Great Books of Western World and watch some online lectures, what would leave me plenty of time to head for a profession that actually pays, and is, in some sense, related. So, I choose law school instead.

>> No.2485532

>>2485529

>Great Books of The Western World

You must not be a very rigorous thinker if you still subscribe to such outdated notions.

>> No.2485539

>>2485532
Well, we have to start from somewhere, and I guess the analytical view would give me some pinpoints to embase further inquire in the years to come.

>> No.2485540

>>2485532
>Implying Africa has ever produced anything resembling decent literature.

>> No.2485548

>>2485539

No it won't. It will lead you down the canon and you'll get to the point where the canon broke down and be all like "fuck".

>>2485540

I didn't imply anything near that. Fuck off with your race baiting bullshit.

>> No.2485556

>>2485540

No he's not, he's questioning the idea of the canon, the notion that literature can be somehow definitively valued and that knowledge should be disseminated only according to authoritative approval. What the fuck? How do you have enough of a brain to read books?

>> No.2485566

>>2485548
Doing so may ultimately prove to be necessary. I guess it's better to dive down all the way throughout the canon and be able to track down the metaphysics beyond common sense than elect any linguistic turn as starting point and disregard the millenia thinking process that lead towards this. I don't believe in shortcuts.

>> No.2485572

>>2485566

>be able to track down the metaphysics beyond common sense than elect any linguistic turn as starting point

That makes very little sense. Please stop talking like this.

>disregard the millenia thinking process that lead towards this.

This makes marginally more sense, but still, fuck. You mean the millenia OF thinking processES.

Furthermore, your notion of linear Western Development is even more archaic than the notion of the canon.

>> No.2485575

It seems to me that as decadence and being self absorbed in society swells so do the humanities/arts.

In the UK many physics and chemistry departments have shut down due to lack of interest (its to hard/not enough fun). While humanties and arts departments have grown. the only thing this is producing is a large amont of middle management suited grads and lack of people with useful skills. Maybe the 9k fee change is a good idea...

>> No.2485580

>>2485575

Evidence of this please.

>> No.2485581

>>2485575

Also, fuck off with the decadence in the arts discourse. Who are you, Max Nordau? They were laughing at this kind of opinion 120 years ago.

>> No.2485585

>>2485333

>Overhead for English classes is very low, but the students pay the same tuition as everyone else. In other words, English majors are subsidizing your education.

or if we closed down the humanities faculties, their offices and buildings, our science tuition would be lower

>> No.2485588

>>2485585

at least science faculties bring the university an income, they get research grants and can pay their masters/phd students a fair wage...english departments have no such luck and just leach off the profitable departments like engineering and business

>> No.2485590

>>2485588

Sure is capitalist ideology in here.

>> No.2485591

>>2485581

no way man society is totally decadent and on the decline and stuff

are all sceince people pencilneck wannabe fascists or just on 4chan

>> No.2485593

>>2485585

Potential book burner.

>> No.2485605

>>2484635
>>2484640
Literature and art are no more childish or "practical" (whatever that means) than physics, economics or whatever.

I study physics. Come at me.

>> No.2485610

>>2485590
>Literature major
>Being a Marxist
Sure is easy to whine about the privilege of people who work hard, make money, and own things when you do fuck all to contribute to society, isn't it?

>> No.2485615

>WHAT BENEFIT TO THE WORLD IS THE 'APPRECIATING, GENERATING AND ADVANCING' OF ART?

it makes ppl happy and less likely to kill each other, maybe

other than that, its useless...but that's a pretty good function

>> No.2485616

>>2485572
My notions are open to improvement, and the only sense in which I see linearity is that the earlier authors weren't able to read the later ones. I wouldn't despise the contents of books that remained controversial and relevant for centuries just because any sort of label people may or may not be glad to use. And no matter what are your critics, there is always need of some source to emulate in order to improve our own thinking models. So, I'll keep reading.

>> No.2485618

>>2485610

wait wait he's on the verge of writing a magnum opus that will revolutionize the working class and transform capitalism

just you wait!

>> No.2485633

I'm attractive, likeable, and intellectual. I've made countless friends who I've helped make their lives that much easier. I have exposed my friends to viewpoints and arguments their stubbnorness similar to that found in this thread would have not allowed them to see. Throughout my time spent on the internet (videogames, messageboards, youtube) I have proved beneficial to others as they have to me. I will propagate and raise more of me, except hopefulyl better. Your contribution via your degree is really negligible and you are expendable no matter what. My mother has an English degree and has gone on to become an educator of educators. Her students love her, she has raised (i'd like to think) nice kids, helps my self-conscious dad (engineer) write for work, and has helped hundreds of local high school kids when their teachers couldn't. Do not use a degree to gauge a person's contribution to society. Especially a society who in reality cares fuck all about them.

>> No.2485638

>>2485616

>there is always need of some source to emulate

Jesus christ it's like you're going backwards in time the most you post.

The theory of mimesis is like from the fucking Renaissance. Come on now.

>> No.2485639

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrr_VVtyUA8

>> No.2485640

>>2485610

What makes you think I'm a Marxist?

>> No.2485647

>>2485638

It's from Ancient Greece.

>> No.2485657

>>2485647

For real? It's been too long since my literary theory survey.

>> No.2485666

>>2485091
I'm so conflicted because this man is so right and I understand.
But I still consider studying something like that a luxury.
Here I am, terrible at math and excellent at writing papers, yet I am about to force myself to pick some sort of engineering major that I haven't even decided yet...

>> No.2485675

>>2485657
>Not knowing mimesis is from antiquity
Get out.

>> No.2485680

>>2485638
I still don't get what exactly is your problem with the past. Anything you read, no matter what, was written in the past, and even to create a neologism or new metaphor you must put it in constrast with traditional uses of words, otherwise it would be unintelligible babble. Everything have a past that help us to understand how that come to be, and I can see no harm in learning about it. Inversely, I don't see what intellectual benefits may arise from pointing out a date to ridicule a notion.

>> No.2485795

that picture annoys me. this thread should be erased.

also, op is a huge fag because he thinks that stuff like "practical, interesting, useful, relevant" are inherent to a thing or discipline itself.

you are not telling us nothing about economisc literature or the world. you are just telling us about yourself.

>> No.2487031

Bump

>> No.2487034

Well I guess I'm glad for you, I hope you're happy with this choice in the future.

>> No.2487074

Listen this is what we should do !

Stop learning anything besides the sciences - because science has a resolution for everything. And that's the reason millions die every year from disease, hunger and war even though billions of dollars are poured into humanitarian bullshit organizations, medical research and peace keeping contingents.

We should stop creating art because art has not practical use. Even though science was the thing that wasn't practical before art came around. No need for arithmetic and geometry if you don't have to calculate the weight ratios for marble statues and pillars.

We should pretty much commit suicide en mass. Because living isn't practical.

>> No.2487094

>>2485566

your on crack

>> No.2487104

>>2485633

your mums a teacher of teachers?

>> No.2487108

>>2487074
>confusing mathematics with science
>implying science doesn't save lives
>implying it's alright to be useless

5/10

>> No.2487117

>>2487108 >implying science doesn't save lives
It doesn't.
protip : You'll die. 20. 30. 50. 75+ if you're lucky. It'll happen.

People live in the present. You can't rewind your life like a video tape. The length of ones life is irrelevant once the life ends. So from the logical viewpoint (the one children with no grasp of reality like) you want to implement science doesn't save lives.

And even if that wasn't the case life isn't enjoyable without art. TV, music, books, comics, cooking, painting, etc - that's what people do for fun, everything else is tedious.

>> No.2487119

>English classes
>every teacher
>feminist propaganda
>gay propaganda
Every fucking class.

>> No.2487295

>>2485540
aimé césaire + Léopold Sédar Senghor motherfucker

>> No.2487404

>>2484635
yeah, this is why i applied to law schools and public policy degrees. I love philosophy and social science theory. But I had to ask myself if i would really be helping anyone if i pursued those areas as a career?

perhaps if i were a poly math or enjoyed writing all the time i could craft sociological studies or a new philosophy that people could use to live better lives. But that is such a risky proposition. And if I failed, what would I have to show for my life?

But in helping others with practical matters, like the law or government administration, I can have a clear legacy to look forward to. It might not be a famous legacy, but at least i'm more likely to have some sort of positive impact.

plus i don't want my work to complete overtake my life. I want to have a a healthy marriage and kids. If i spend all my time devoted to philosphy or research then i'd be worse off.

Leave all that radical work for when the world needs it. right now, in the west, we should just focus on living good lives and sustaining things as long as possible. philosophy and literature are necessary for the downcast and societies in states of emergency. If we in affluent societies try to force these sorts of cultural phenomena into existence we will only be fooling ourselves.

>> No.2487517

>>2487119

you forgot
>minority propaganda

>> No.2487577

>>2487517
just calling them "minorities" is propaganda, they are non-whites or shitskins.

>> No.2487608
File: 78 KB, 423x477, 1320723146051.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2487608

>>2484664
>implying the decision to major in engineering doesn' immediately make you gay.

>>2484669
Yeah, but if the U.S. tanked the rest of the world would go with it, you fuckwitted isolated bogan.