/lit/ - Literature

[Scots No.2466931]

Hello, my /lit/erate friends.

I am looking for reputable books about Germanic, pre-Christian Europe. If anyone could point me in the direction of fiction set in this time or just a general history book, that'd be great.

Thanks

[Dreamer No.2467043]

Anyone?

[Anonymous No.2467053]

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14915
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1152

J. Brandt, Jastorf und Latène. Internat. Arch. 66 (2001)
John Collis, The European Iron Age

It says the brandt piece issnt in english, but I really like him as a scholarly historian. He always gives all points. If you can get it in english go for it.

Malcolm Todd : The Early Germans. Blackwell Publishing.
Peter S. Wells : Beyond Celts, Germans and Scythians: Archaeology and Identity in Iron Age Europe

[Scots No.2467058]

>>2467053
Thanks, bud. Appreciate it.

[Scots No.2467066]

The Early Germans looks really good. Does it cover Scots at all? (Lowland Scots, if you're wondering)

[Anonymous No.2467273]

>>2467066
Not sure. Got banned for posting a purchase list, but blackwell's people of europe has almost every ethjnic groups history you would ever need.

Its on scribd tho

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32982142/The-Early-Germans

[Anonymous No.2467292]

I would highly recommend finding a good translation of The Nibelungelied. That is essentially the Beowulf of German literature and it's an incredible epic poem, you can find it in English in novel format.

Also all of the Icelandic viking sagas which were essentially the first scriptures written in what we now refer to as the "european novel" format.

These will give you the best depictions of lit from the time period in saga

[Scots No.2467362]

>>2467273
I prefer to buy my books.
Yes I know,
>2012
> Buying books

Something about dat feel, I guess.

[Anonymous No.2467489]

Implying Christianity didn't sanatise the fuck out of everything and destroy European culture.

[Anonymous No.2467495]

>>2467489

>hail thor!

[Anonymous No.2467498]

It was christianity and the christian mindset which made europe strong.

[Scots No.2467500]

>>2467489
True. Very true.
>>2467495
>Implying Thor is just some Marvel come creation. Gtfo.

[Scots No.2467505]

>>2467500
comic creation*
:<

[Scots No.2467508]

>>2467498
And how do you justify that?

[Anonymous No.2467523]

De Bello Gallico by Julius Caesar (fights Germani and Belgae tribes. Hope you read Classical Latin.)

ALSO, not very accurate account because it's mainly Caesarian self-endorsement. But it's some of the best we've got. Happy translating...(don't use a web translator, find a full translation online.)

[Anonymous No.2467526]

>>2467508

Not that guy, but it created unity amongst tribes warring over petty shit. It was a deciding part in the formation of Europes modern nations. It created a strong shared value between European cultures. It created the bond that was mostly responsible for holding of the Islamic armies.

[Scots No.2467531]

>>2467526
>"Created unity amongst tribes"
> In reality they were violently converted by the Followers of the Way.

[Anonymous No.2467548]

>>2467531
Same thing. Those few moral details don't matter. In the end it served the greater good of Europe I think, and I say this as someone who dislikes Christianity and finds the old heathens very sympathetic. Christianity as a stage in development is partly what brought us to our level of society and technology today.

[Scots No.2467561]

>>2467548
I sort of understand what you're saying, but I'm one of those "old heathens"

Anyway, nice to see a civilized conversation happening here...

[Anonymous No.2467564]

>>2467523

don't forget Tacitus, he writes a lot about 1st century Germany

[Anonymous No.2467568]

>>2467561

>I'm one of those "old heathens"

keep telling yourself that

[Scots No.2467573]

>>2467568
Yeah, I am. I'm a heathen from BC, man.

[Anonymous No.2467589]

>>2467561

Well I don't know about "old". Do you believe in their Gods in an absolute way or is it just archetypal symbolism mumbo jumbo?

And more importantly, do you think Europe would have been better off without Christianity? Don't you think we would have probably just be crushed by Huns, Moors, Ottomans and other scum?

[Anonymous No.2467597]

>>2467573

no offense, but listening to viking metal, memorizing wikipedia articles on norse mythology and pretending to believe it doesn't make you an authentic "heathen" or "pagan". polytheistic religion is forever lost to us after at least 1500 years of juadeo-christian influence. You can desire it all you want, you can never see the Gods with the same eyes as the ancients did, and I would go so far as to say that for modern westerners, it is entirely impossible to actually "believe" in them. The entire concept of "believing" or "having faith" in a god is totally alien to polytheism because it implies that there is an alternative (not believing). gods were not believed in, they were known about. and that assumption is irrevocably lost.

[Anonymous No.2467602]

>>2467597
Any literature that mentions the stars is completely lost to us, since we've had light pollution.

[Scots No.2467607]

>>2467597
Stopped reading at "viking metal."

Why do you assume things?

[Scots No.2467611]

>>2467597
Also, I was actually making a joke hence the line, "Yeah, I am. I'm a heathen from BC, man.'

I don't follow any religion. I have the utmost respect for all polytheist religion. I don't despite anything. I revere my ancestors.

[Anonymous No.2467610]

>>2467602
Shitty comparison. That pollution can be circumvented, you can't magically tap into your iron age brain because you don't have one.

>>2467607
You should read on, he makes an excellent point.

[Anonymous No.2467615]

>>2467602

that's fucking retarded.

>>2467607

>Stopped reading at "viking metal."

implying you did

>Why do you assume things?

whelp, there was a pretty good chance, guess I was wrong.

[Anonymous No.2467617]

>>2467611
Why do you revere them? Aside from procreating in such a way that you were a result of it, of course.

[Anonymous No.2467621]

>>2467610
>Shitty comparison. That pollution can be circumvented, you can't magically tap into your iron age brain because you don't have one.
By living in the Sahara all your life. Yeah, sounds pretty easy.

[Scots No.2467627]

>>2467610

I did read on after that horrible assumption. He does make a good point.

>>2467617
I revere my ancestors... because that seems like the natural thing to do. As I said, I don't follow any religion. I respect and appreciate what little mythology we have of all the ancient gods. I do not dispute the existence of anything. I honor blood and the people from whom I am descended, not an imaginary creation.

[Anonymous No.2467638]

>>2467621

you're not following the argument. if you lived in the sahara all your life, you wouldn't be exposed to christian thought patterns, YES, but you also wouldn't be exposed to any others. you are saying nothing.

the point is that the history of religion has done things to our collective psyche that cannot be undone or wished away because one finds other religions attractive for some reason.

[Anonymous No.2467642]

>>2467638
It's very simple: we can no longer see the stars as our ancestors did. We cannot into the majesty of looking up at the night sky above us. The only places where the night sky looks remotely like it did back then is in the Sahara. Therefore that literature is lost to us.

[Scots No.2467645]

>>2467642
What you're saying is that our ancestors saw bright and full the cosmos in all its shiny glory. Now we can't.

You make a decent point. I don't see how anyone can fail to understand it, though.

[Anonymous No.2467647]

>>2467642

3/10, had me going for a while

[Scots No.2467650]

>>2467647
How is he trolling? What's hard to understand about it?

[Anonymous No.2467649]

>>2467642
>we can no longer see the stars as our ancestors did. We cannot into the majesty of looking up at the night sky above us. The only places where the night sky looks remotely like it did back then is in the Sahara.

And, you know, in space. Where we have shitload of material and even some people. And we have enormous telescopes. No people in the history of mankind have ever had such a great possibility to examine the stars. That's why I said your comparison was shitty.

Pic related: A modern view of the stars

>>2467647

Shit, you're probably right. Oh well.

[Scots No.2467654]

This thread, by the way, is about Germanic literature and Pre-Christian Europe. Not stars.

[Anonymous No.2467655]

>>2467649
Here's something else different:
>And, you know, in space. Where we have shitload of material and even some people. And we have enormous telescopes. No people in the history of mankind have ever had such a great possibility to examine the stars. That's why I said your comparison was shitty.

>Pic related: A modern view of the stars
The only modern reality is perceived through a screen.

[Anonymous No.2467659]

You simply can't get into the lack of doubt you had when you still believed in Santa by choice. In the same way you can't consciously enter the naive state of ancient heathens. It's that simple. That's why any man who's a product of modern society who claims he shares the view of our ancestors can't be taken seriously.

>>2467655
Yes, it may be different. But is different on another level and in another way. If anything the range of our perception grew. This is incomparable with the believe in gods to the point where it isn't even discerned as belief anymore, but as fact. The ancients probably believed in gods as we do in foxes.

[Scots No.2467662]

ITT: Good conversation.
Mfw when I have no face, but if I did it would have a big faggoty grin.

[Anonymous No.2467663]

>>2467650

it's not hard to understand at all, but he seems to be using it as an ironic parallel, i.e. a strawman argument against >>2467597

[Anonymous No.2467666]

>>2467659
>implying I don't believe in Gods and foxes in the same way
Some places view them as practically the same thing.

[Anonymous No.2467672]

>>2467611

>I was actually making a joke hence the line, "Yeah, I am. I'm a heathen from BC, man.'

i am so stupid. i only just realized that you are not saying that you're from British Columbia

[Scots No.2467677]

>>2467672
;)
From Before Christ/Before the Common Era

[Anonymous No.2467681]

>>2467666

>Some places view them as practically the same thing.

sure they do, but you can't, not really. there will always be that part of your brain where the western world's collective memory resides that will keep telling you that what you're believing is bullshit because if there is a god, there can be only one, and he isn't the world, he created it and it is not worthy of the worship of filthy pagans

you can try to convince yourself otherwise, and try to drown that voice all you like, it's never going to go away.

[Anonymous No.2467684]

>>2467663
Ironic parallel isn't a strawman, although it looks like it's been treated as such.

[Anonymous No.2467682]

>>2467666
>implying there isn't an important connection between those 'places' doing so and their inhabitating of mud huts and the belief that veneral diseases can be warded off with talismans

[Anonymous No.2467690]

Go read Saga of the Volsungs.

[Anonymous No.2467692]

>>2467677
As a Scotsman, do you prefer to play as a Breton or a Nord in Skyrim?

In addition to that, do you view yourself as Germanic or as Celtic?

[Anonymous No.2467697]

>>2467681
>sure they do, but you can't
Why not? You have no idea about my upbringing or background. It's only in the mid-19th Century we see such strong pressures on paganism from the Churches in Europe (like in Ireland, funeral rites contained old pagan traditions). Even in the early 20th C we can still see outcry against this (partly why Joyce left Ireland. Against authoritarian religion despite being pro nationalism).

And even then, you seem to think there is a massive difference between "enlightenment" and "mythological" thinking. And there isn't. We still pray to the forces of nature, but in completely different ways.

[Anonymous No.2467701]

>>2467697
How do we pray to forces of nature then? Genuinely interested.

[Scots No.2467699]

>>2467692
I prefer not to play Skyrim. HEATHEN! HEATHEN! (Which is funny considering this thread.)

I would consider myself a Germanic Scot. Most of my family (only on the surface level - I haven't done any real family tree research) has lived here. My last name's Hood. That's definitely not a highland, Celtic name.

[Anonymous No.2467719]

>>2467489

>Christianity destroyed Europe

>this is what faggots who drink Jager and listen to Viking Metal really believe

[Anonymous No.2467724]

>>2467697

>It's only in the mid-19th Century we see such strong pressures on paganism

yeah, no. Charlemagne massacred the fuck out of the Saxons to force them to adopt Christianity in the 8th century, and that's just off the top of my head.

>funeral rites contained old pagan traditions

that doesn't really say anything about beliefs. Christmas is celebrated after the winter solstice because the birth of sun gods used to be celebrated at that time, but nobody remembers that, that was just a good strategy at the time to not disrupt people's entire annual cycle with the new ideology.

>you seem to think there is a massive difference between "enlightenment" and "mythological" thinking. And there isn't.

there is a huge difference between whether people generally assume that the world is a magical place run by gods or whether one assumes unpersonal abstract laws of nature that require no supernatural causes

>We still pray to the forces of nature, but in completely different ways.

that is true only in the most abstract ways and does not refute in any way the simple fact that about 1500 years of montheistic tradition has forever ruined our ability to return to a view of an enchanted world that is the simple home of men and gods

[Scots No.2467731]

>>2467719
Evidence. Present it.

[Anonymous No.2467734]

>>2467701
In the past, the forces of nature were controlled by supernatural beings, so we were exorcised by the local shaman, or danced for rain, or pregnant women ate earth for a healthy delivery or whatever to appease these spirits.

Now we view the forces of nature as governed by "laws". And we try to "appease" those laws, so we go to psychiatrists or take minerals or shoot crap into clouds to make it rain. It's difficult to find what the definitive difference is though between these two systems. That our system actually works? Well, our ancestors thought theirs worked. That we can use our own cunning to overcome nature? Nearly every mythical hero does the same, Odysseus being a prime example.

[Anonymous No.2467736]

>>2467731

>meet guy at uni
>discuss religion
>DERP KRISHCHANITY RUINED EUROPE WE WERE WARRIORS WTF HAPPENED LOL DICKSUCKING PRIESTS FAGS
>he knocks back Jager like it's going out of style
>also likes Viking metal

[Anonymous No.2467740]

>>2467724
>Charlemagne massacred the fuck out of the Saxons to force them to adopt Christianity in the 8th century
Did that stop them continuing pagan rites? Off the top of my head, former communist countries still tend to celebrate "name days" which are saint's days despite enforced (and now continuing) atheism. Off the top of my head, we still get references to shit like fairies in Saxon literature after the 8th C.

[Anonymous No.2467743]

>>2467734

you're not really making an argument. you can't just play down gigantic developments in the history of thought and pretend like it didn't really matter all that much because you can say "well, they just did their thing and we're doing ours, that kinda makes it the same"

creationism isn't the same as the theory of evolution either, just because "it works for the one who believes it"

[Anonymous No.2467747]

>>2467724
>hat doesn't really say anything about beliefs. Christmas is celebrated after the winter solstice because the birth of sun gods used to be celebrated at that time, but nobody remembers that, that was just a good strategy at the time to not disrupt people's entire annual cycle with the new ideology.
No, it's a Roman thing. You know, Holy Roman Empire becomming the Christian church? It's not to do with the solstice. You're thinking of Yule that was absorbed into the Christian tradition, and thus gave us a load of pagan traditions to carry out on the 25th.

[Scots No.2467748]

>>2467736
Raging so hard. What you met was an immature faggot.
I will admit I listen Wardruna. That isn't even metal, so I don't know why I'm even mentioning.

Keep in mind I'm the guy who reveres my ancestors. I don't take on that view just by saying, "WE WERE STRONG WARRIORS HERP DERP. PRIESTS ARE GAY AND ALL OF CHRISTIANITY IS FOR FAGGOTS. CHRISTIAN FAGGOT RACE."

[Anonymous No.2467752]

>>2467734
The difference is that modern believe in causation has empirical evidence to back it up. You can't just say "well both require some form of believe and actions to achieve certain outcomes therefore pregnant bitches eating mud is the same thing as taking vitamin supplements". Well, you can, but it wouldn't make much sense.

[Anonymous No.2467754]

>>2467740

again, rites are not beliefs. they have a tendency to survive changing belief systems and actually help solidifyin the new belief.

there are still ancient egyptian customs in modern-day egypt as well, and arabs still believe in spirits from pre-islamic mythology, but that does in no way affect the fact that they consider themselves members of a superior religion and spit on the beliefs of their pagan ancestors ("kafir", pagan, is pretty much the worst insult there is in Arabic)

[Anonymous No.2467755]

>>2467743
Creationism, to my mind, is almost the reverse, since you can't use it as a kind of way to lever nature.
>"well, they just did their thing and we're doing ours, that kinda makes it the same"
Yeah, that's not what's being said. It just happens that enlightenment and mythological thinking, when you remove the jargon surrounding each, looks pretty similar, except that one deals with beings and the other with laws.

[Anonymous No.2467766]

>>2467755

yes, but that doesn't mean it's no big deal to change back from one to the other, which is what is being implied

[Anonymous No.2467781]

>>2467752
It's interesting that you think eating mud is so dissimilar to taking "vitamins"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geophagy
While it's wikipedia, this is a pretty good paragraph:
The persistence of geophagy within a family or community can also partially be explained by a simple mother/daughter sharing mechanism. A crucial and sometimes hazardous part of rural communities is the act of giving birth. Without advanced medical knowledge, local customs become key to a healthy outcome. Geophagy enters the picture when daughters would "follow the diet of a woman that they knew had been successful at giving birth". The maternal chain can therefore act as an important vector in the continuance of this act. The practice, in truth, is important because it does provide much needed minerals to the human body. Indeed, Western cultures have continued the practice of geophagy, but only under the guise of vitamins and minerals.

>>2467754
>rites are not beliefs
There are still reasons why we carry out certain actions, rites are tied up with beliefs. People are not perfectly consistent, though you appear to be mistaking them as such.

[Anonymous No.2467785]

>>2467766
It doesn't mean it is a big deal either. There are people in London and New York practicing Voodoo and Hoodoo.

[Anonymous No.2467792]

>>2467785
You will find those people to be of rather limited mental capacities.

[Anonymous No.2467797]

>>2467792
Do you mean by limited closed-minded?

[Anonymous No.2467800]

>>2467781

>There are still reasons why we carry out certain actions, rites are tied up with beliefs

yes, but new beliefs replace old justifications for these rites with *new ones*. rites become so important as uniting factors for a community, that it becomes unthinkable to abandon them, even if you adopt a new religion. therefore, you have to accomodate. the rites themselves are actually much more important than the beliefs that are attached to them, depending on whichever ideology is dominant right now

i wrote a paper about how this applies to the transition from paganism to christianity in egypt once, i can look up a couple examples if you insist

[Anonymous No.2467804]

>>2467800
So like you personally don't believe them but liek the community believes them, but they don't because that goes against my argument?

I see...

[Anonymous No.2467805]

>>2467785

i'm sure they are trying very hard to convince themselves that they really believe in what they're doing. we've been over this a thousand times

[Anonymous No.2467809]

>>2467805
And you seem to be trying very hard to convince yourself that they don't.

[Anonymous No.2467813]

>>2467797
I mean borderline animalistic. Have you ever witnessed a voodoo ceremony or read up on fetishist practices in Congo? People in politics suckling on the cut off tongue of small children before a speech to increase public speaking skills, for example?

People who have faith in this kind of causality lack the rationality to be capable of stern scientific thought and can't be said to have sound judgement as far as I'm concerned. It's more of a collective mental illness than just another school of thought with good points that should be respected.

[Anonymous No.2467815]

>>2467804

it has nothing to do with your argument, it's a well known fact that old rites are equipped with new justifications.

other than that i don't understand your post, please rephrase.

nobody believes a rite in and of itself. they believe in the justification that their religion offers for this rite, and hundreds of years later, their descendants might believe in another justification for the same rite, i don't see what's so hard about this

[Anonymous No.2467821]

>>2467815

basically, what i'm saying: rites are not beliefs, they sort of "make alliances" with beliefs that can change later on

[Anonymous No.2467822]

>>2467813
>People in politics suckling on the cut off tongue of small children before a speech to increase public speaking skills, for example?
Or whipping themselves to purify their bodies and atone for their sins? Oh wait, Christianity. Putting rings of spikes around their genitals? Oh, that's Christianity again. Extracting a liquid from the newly dead that was believed to be the essence of life that would extend their own? Oh shit I've done it again.

I'm sorry, I wish you could clarify your point more, but I can't seem to differentiate between Christianity and pagan practice here.

[Anonymous No.2467823]

>>2467821
They sort of do they? Well, sounds like a solid, well thought out argument to me.

[Anonymous No.2467830]

>>2467823

come on, you understand perfectly well that that was a brief summary for what i had just explained in greater detail.

[Anonymous No.2467842]

>>2467830
Rest was pretty BS. There are Christians who still believe the transubstantiation. You can't simply go "These are my values, I'm going to force them onto everyone else" and expect it to be taken seriously.

[Anonymous No.2467851]

>>2467822
Jokes on you, I didn't mean to differ between their practices and Christianity in any way and agree with your point here. Well, jokes on them, I guess.

[Anonymous No.2467858]

>>2467842

i don't think we're talking about the same thing here. of course there are still christians who still believe in the transubstantiation, because that's a rite that is christian by default.

what i'm saying is: assuming another world religion would succeed christianity at some point in the future, it could theoretically happen that that new religion will offer people a new explanation that allows them to keep the rite because it is an important factor of stability in their social lives, as it has happened to countless others in transition to christianity or islam before.

[Anonymous No.2467861]

>>2467842
You can if those values are presented out of the barrel of a gun.

[Anonymous No.2467865]

>>2467858
Transubstantiation isn't a rite, it's a belief. Protestant churches don't buy into transubstantiation explicitly, yet high church protestants still act as they do. I.e. They're lying.

[Anonymous No.2467868]

>>2467861
What now?

[Anonymous No.2467871]

>>2467868

[Anonymous No.2467877]

>>2467865

a rite is just something that you do. the simple fact that you do it together in a sacred place at a fixed time makes it holy and holds the community together.

how you justify this action is a whole other matter. explanations for rites can be subject to change, that's just a fact, you can probably find a thousand examples in google in a few minutes, so i don't know why you're fighting this so desperately

[Anonymous No.2467947]

>>2467871
oh gosh dead hippies how horrible!

[Anonymous No.2468023]

Everytime I see someone post that picture, I can't help but think of this song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWY6GMYgGjI

[Anonymous No.2468063]

4 dead in OHIO!

gotta get down to it, soldiers are cutting us down..

how can you run when you know?

[Anonymous No.2468842]

>>2467947
Edgy harder

captcha: CASUIST, gigeReg

[Anonymous No.2469068]

>>2466931

MFW nobody has mentioned SNORRI. What the shit?! Go read Snorri's Edda for some awesome tales of Norse mythology and legend. If you're more into history read Heimskringla for a bloody history of the kings of Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snorri_Sturluson

Or, the Family Sagas / Sagas of the Icelanders. These sagas deal with warrior-poets and their families feuding, raping, burning but also settling, trading and creating poetry and reacting to the onset of Christianity.

Pic related - it's Snorri Sturluson.

[Anonymous No.2470242]

>>2467821

also, rites imply belief on a surface or public level at least. Even if not a personal belief, the fact that a rite is practised establishes some investment or worth in the action.